I don't support the Fatah leadership of the PA - and I don't support the decision to execute these men.

They do however have some catching up to do before they can even start to compete with the Israeli states record of executing men and innocent bystanders without even the pretense of a trial, wouldn't you say?

Are you shunning the British people because their elected officials are involved in human rights abuses?

The shortfalls of re-engaging with Israel in a sham "peace process" are becoming only too apparent.

Israel demands of the Palestinians that they run a model administration under occupation, and put the blame for their own continued human rights abuses on the failure of Fatah tycoons to deliver, whilst the IDF and Israeli state take yet more land and build even more of the Apartheid Wall and new homes in West Bank AND Gaza settlements.

It is no wonder then that within Palestine and the Palestinian diaspora, there is a growing dislike of Abu Mazen and his "government".


 http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5069151,00.html

"Rigi Sorani, chairman of Gaza Center for Human Rights, said the Palestinian group also opposed the executions.

``When we learned about President Abbas planning to carry out executions three months ago, we sent him a letter, and I personally met with him to talk him out of it,'' Sorani said."

Get with the program, LNT.

Seasoned visitors to these pages will by now have learned that one's enemy's enemy is one's friend and thus beyond moral reproach. Witness the indifference with which these pages greet news of the hanging of Palestinian homosexuals, the forced evacuation of white Zimbabwean farmers and the latest pronouncements of genocidal islamists.

Only one side is wilfully targeting civilians, and it isn't the Middle East's solitary democratic government.

To the person who claims Palestinian gays are hung, I challenge you to produce some evidence.

And to the originate of the article: You cannot even spell PALESTINE

"Seasoned visitors to these pages will by now have learned that one's enemy's enemy is one's friend and thus beyond moral reproach. Witness the indifference with which these pages greet news of the hanging of Palestinian homosexuals, the forced evacuation of white Zimbabwean farmers and the latest pronouncements of genocidal islamists."

Sorry who is my enemy, and who is my enemy's enemy? Theres plenty the Palestinian Authority does that is shit - but that doesn't alter the fact that an occupied people have far more to fear from the Occupier than they do from the Palestinian Authority.

As for land redistibution in Africa - it has to happen - but it is clear that Mugabe is playing some other kind of game. However, the demonisation of him has more to do with his refusal to Eat Shit and Perish, or follow ESAPs.......... Theres no shortage of nasty, corrupt leaders in the West.

"Only one side is wilfully targeting civilians, and it isn't the Middle East's solitary democratic government."

Your ignorance is your problem.

yesterday i posted a complex piece of art, bravely written into this form.
i should have known better.. but all the work can get you tired.

The article here refered to, in brief is bashingly rasist, its preoccupied and demagogic, and it doesnt hold truth. Having indymedia post that kind of crap, clearly suggest they are in the palistinean case not independend at all.
But actually try to deny Palistineans the human rights of objective information and equal means of fight.

If people care about the palistinean situation, let them realise ,nearly every day,
we can read about attrocities by israelians. And let them realise it's censored even on the spot, without that, it would be all the more shamefull what israel does.

That it's also censored here, both positivly by letting through such biased and untrue and prejudiced posts as the one i now am reacting too;
And negativly , as in through keeping my perfectly well written and posted , yesterdays post from appearing, is all the sadder.

Moreso because it actually derives interested people from informations that may help them shape their opinions, and leaves them less vulnerable to propaganda attacks, as the post i am now having to react too is.

I understand indymedia may blame it on technical difficulties, and may blame it on my incapacity to post into simple froms, but that explanation is all but satisfactory.

I have experienced by now to often i had to double post things before the form worked, to believe that anymore, i have experienced to often that if i don't save my work, it doesn't appear.

This way , considering that when i do save it, it does appear, the things i write for the humanist cause can in fact be abused by the opressors.

Like letting the insulting and discriminating post (thus the one i am obviously reacting too) through clearly suggests indeed.. indymedia is being abused for misinforming goodwilling people.

I know the response will be that i attack indymedia.
Well i didn't at any point in yesterdays (disappeared) post.
I leave the conclusions to the public.

Onix

" i have experienced to often that if i don't save my work, it doesn't appear"

I'm a bit confused as to how it you think Indymedia knows that you haven't saved your work.

One of my comments didn't appear yesterday - but I have no reason to believe that it was hidden. There are going to be glitches with the switchover to the new template.

As your second comment did appear, it would have been more interesting if you had included your thoughts on the matter.

What were they?

It wasnt a short comment..

I remember starting with showing terms like great mufti, and yasser is only cold, are disrespectfull, biased and prejudiced , in short rasist.

Ofcourse i suspect that despite the unavailability of my yesterdays post in hidden.. this post will be tested against (my) yesterdays post for congruence.

Technically its all to possible to manipulate media (like comments here) in ways that i have no insight in, in a way therefore i experience your request, ftp, as strange, suspect.. I perceive such things as me being under psychological preasure.

Bringing me to the next point of yesterdays post.

The writer of that post either has informations, as to the wellfare of political agents among the palistineans that others dont have, or is lying.

The suggestion that the confession is a 'confession' suggests to human rights activists these secret agents have been tortured.
(is he as informed as to know what happens to israelian agents?)

So i somewhere got to the point:
That since palistineans are tortured, and assasinated, and shot and whatever not all more repressed, locked up in prison camps eg., the priority for the palistineans in knowing who cause all this torture and murder, could well be so big:
That trained agents would be severely pressed (and that translates into eg. US or Israelian contexts, even, tortured), as to provide both proof; and some more safety for palistineans, supposedly called palistinean militants.
Although that term is regarding eg. intifada, an absurdism.

I don't say i like it, I just realised that with sencure (sensorship doesnt quitte cover the term), as israel to my own experience and as often proofed and told in many media, applies, we can't deny the palistineans the right to react, even in similar inhumane ways as so often have been applied to them.

Then (cause i don't remember how exactly i put all that yesterday),
I note i found an article by sheer coincedence, on al jazheera (english).
That gave all i already observed and suspected an even more wicked turn..

The 4 people killed, sentenced and killed, were actually 4 confessed murderers,
executed since the palistinean community urged the post arafat government,
to take hard measures against severely rising crimerates..
Somehow this would however not confront the militants..

This is what i thought of it: The 4 executed people may not only have been spies, as according to the indy post i refer to, but *also* murderers..
and possibly criminal, wich translates into taking money for making other palistineans suffer eg. Then all would still fit..
The whole al jazheera article, and the statements on indy these guys were actually secret agents, only one question remained, had these agents actually been active since 2001, the time arafat abolished death penalty? And is the writer of the post that started this threat regretting that.

Since that all seemed a bit academical, and I , as in yesterdays article, am an actual opponent of death penalty, I thought i had an argument in favour of this rude palistinean measure.

So I again related , the harm done , in a situation of real opression: the palestinean cause, to the death penalty, and concluded:
It was a bit hard to expect that people who's houses get buldozered would have the means to maintain unlimited numbers of murderers and warcriminals, for life long sentences.

Not to express sympathy for the deathpenalty's, not even the ones imposed, but to express that I realised what an excellent method of preasure to a resistance movement or surpressed people it can be to claim that death penalty is unjustifiable in any case were they themselves get murdered.

The al jazheera article btw. explicitly states israelian agents are not! executed, since that would 'inflame' the israelian state to much.

Personally i think and thought yesterday, it's utterly unjust to put so much international preasure on people that are themselves, killed,abused, shot and denied basic rights on a daily basis for many, many years already,and to demand they would respect such morbid wishes.

B.t.w. that hideous post is still on indymedia, and i think by now it caused to much to remove it.. and should stay there pointing an indignant finger to indymedia-uk.

As for not including all this on my this mornings post, i was angonised by the whole thing already.
I feel powerless to wake up with the realisation that my post may well have never appeared.
U feel agitated to realise that it most probably isnt so coincedental as people would want it to look.
And i have been under severe emotional pressure on behalf of people who apparently can use every insult and attack to try to stop me from functioning objectivly, on the indymedia network.
I felt i had to first make the point that lived most in me on that moment.

You say the server is switching to a different script and that glitches away articles,
codewise that is nearly completely impossible, posting applets don't have erratic though suspectably rational behaviour.
It has happened before, not only recently, and on a whole array of infymedia's, it's happened years ago as well and every time I have 'a fit of independend mediisement.'

Why don't u admit?;)
Manipulations of propaganda (that is secret) services are most always operating on me to try to make me ridiculous, and try to limit my freedom of speech as much as they can..
well .. i leave my conclusions to the public.

Here's some interesting statistics:

 http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/overview.html

-- "provide proof that Palestinian gays are hung "-- (the word is 'hanged')

-see here:

 http://www.petertatchell.net/international/palestinedemo.htm
“Gay Palestinians are being beaten, tortured and murdered by factions of the PLO, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Palestinian Authority,” according to Peter Tatchell of the queer rights group OutRage!

“The Palestinian administration tolerates the so-called ‘honour’ killing of women who refuse to submit to the strict rules of orthodox Islam,” he added.

here:
 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2826963.stm

here:
 http://outrage.nabumedia.com/pressrelease.asp?ID=189

here:
 http://www.petertatchell.net/international/palestine.htm

here:
 http://www.sodomylaws.org/world/israel/isnews005.htm

here:
 http://boifromtroy.com/archives/003112.php

and here:
 https://www3.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/05/311705.html

"They do however have some catching up to do before they can even start to compete with the Israeli states record of executing men "

Israel's last execution occurred in 1962. Adolf Eichmann, an architect of the genocide of European Jewry was dispatched to the gallows.

"and innocent bystanders"

to reiterate a point made more eloquently above, only one party is targeting civilians as policy. It ain't Israel. Every war Israel has waged has been a war of self-defence. Israel has offered the Palestinians a state on four occasions. Four occasions.

"without even the pretense of a trial, wouldn't you say?"
 http://www.llrx.com/features/israel.htm

find above information regarding the Israeli court system. The Israeli High Court has a reputation for liberality.

Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad each operate a system of kangaroo courts, executing individuals at whim. Now, grow up, shut up and leave politics to the informed.

Well, here we go

 http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=643659
We killed police for revenge, Israeli soldiers confess
By Donald Macintyre in Jerusalem
03 June 2005


Two Israeli soldiers have come forward to describe how they took part in what they say was an officially ordered "revenge" operation to kill Palestinian police officers - among them several unarmed men.


Hmmm, so Israel only targets militants. Yeah right...

Maybe the death penalty does not exist inside of Israel ( unless you're an Israeli Arab protesting at the beginning of the 2nd Intifada...I seem to recall several Arab Israeli citizens were killed by the IDF ), but it certainly exists for those living under the brutal occupation, and there is no trial, not rights. People are held in detention without charge for years and years. And people are tortured.

Terrible that the Palestinians have re-instated the death penalty, though, I agree. Of course, the US executes many more, and Israel has murdered many more Palestinians, a large proportion of whom are children.

Your ignorance is your problem - not mine.

Perhaps you're denying that Israel assassinates Palestinians.

Perhaps you don't know about new IDF Chief of Staff Dan Halutz's little interview
 http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20050222-024516-9893r.htm

Perhaps you don't know about the B'tselem report
 http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/200505_Take_No_Prisoners.asp

Amnesty certainly know about the "targetted assassinations"
 http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1116901693930

HRW calls them "liquidations"
 http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2001/01/29/isrlpa204.htm

Your denial that men are killed without a trial by Israel is pretty damn hollow.

As for the Israeli courts, they spend a lot time rubber stamping the war crimes of the Israeli State.

Get back to me when you've found out whats going on....... last execution in 1962 my arse.

I'm so sick of the politics of "your side's worse than my side".

It's about time that progressive people condemned human rights abuses. Period.

It shouldn't matter who is perpetrating them. The cause of human rights is not served by this tit-for-tat game.

When America or Israel, or whoever violates civilized behavior in the name of "security" or "combating terrorism" it is NOT an excuse. And neither is the occupation of Palestine a blanket excuse for Palestinian groups to persecute others and abuse human rights.

Without a respect for human rights at the core, no cause, no struggle, no organization is going anywhere worth following.

"I'm so sick of the politics of "your side's worse than my side"."

I'm sure you are ..........

So, your point is what exactly?

I'm sure that if a gay man was attacked by a homophobe, you wouldn't side with either party.

Right?

Palestinians get to face more oppression than most - not only do they have to deal with the occupier, but they have to deal with the corrupt 'Tunisians' whom their occupiers decided was the "preferred negotiating" partner - thus undermining the rights based approach of the leadership of the first Intifada. They also have to deal with the fallout from Hamas, whom Israel initially assisted in order to undermine the "secular democratic" approach of Arafat and his corrupt inner-circle.

Now the PAs message is "Not only do you have to fear death from the Israelis, but we can kill you too" - why do you keep making the mistake of assuming that Palestinians and activists see the PA as a source of liberation?

And, at the end of the day, why should what we say concern the powermongers amongst the Palestinians, its not exactly as if we've done anything meaningful to bring the occupation to an end, is it?

Perhaps if the Palestinians saw some meaningful and effective action coming from activists in the West they would be prepared to start adopting the values that we embrace.

In the meantime, the Palestinians need to be freed from the yoke of occupation before they can concentrate their energy on liberating themselves from the powermongers in their own society.

"Perhaps if the Palestinians saw some meaningful and effective action coming from activists in the West they would be prepared to start adopting the values that we embrace. "

And what values are those? Being silent about the persecution of some when it is inconvenient to the 'bigger picture'?

Or are you saying that respect for human rights is a 'western' value?

You seem to infantalize Palestinians - that they can only learn values from us through example.

Helping to 'liberate' people by delivering them from one (foreign) oppressor into the hands of another (local) oppressor is no liberation at all. If there is any outside influence, it is best used to precipitate reform within the liberation movement towards developing a vision for liberation that is inclusive and easier for most to subscribe to - which is exactly what the ANC did in South Africa: which is why it remains a multi-party democracy with a progressive constitution, unlike Zimbabwe which did not have the benefit of visionaries like Mandela, Tambo, Sisulu and (Govan) Mbeki.

I sincerely believe that the path to Palestinian liberation will be sped up if the dominant voices in the liberation movement were statesmen, not thugs. By being apologists for the thugs, we stand in the way of the statesmen coming forward.

You can stamp your feet as much as you like and INSIST that people MUST support the Palestinain cause UNCONDITIONALLY! But, the reality is that most won't unless there is a clear vision and a set of values that they can get behind.

Torture and executions isn't the way to go about it. Sure, be an apologist for it for all the good it will do in getting international support for Palestinian liberation.

If the ANC had been blowing up school busses and executing people, they would not have had the international support they did. Sure, for a period, "collaborators" where killed by having a buring tire put around their necks, but instead of putting it in 'context', Archbishop Desmond Tutu himself spoke out against it and famously risked his own life to save a victim from a mob. It was actions like this that established the credibility of the South African liberation movement - NOT moral equivalence.

You have to distinguish between official policy and actual reality. And even within official policy you have to distinguish between rhetoric and the reality of covert operations.

If you look at the stats you'll see that Israel has killed more Palestinians than Palestine has killed Israelis.

You can claim this is self defense. Yet most of the Palestinians killed were totally innocent civilians.

You claim Israeli is fighting only in self defense. Who is it defending itself against? Are these people not themselves defending themselves against Israel? Look who's on who's land. Look who's repressing who. Look who's forcing who to live under a brutal occupation with their freedoms and economy completely strangled.

But that's not to whitewash Palestine. Suicide bombing is fucked up. And so is a reactionary interpretation of Islam which oppresses gays and others. Anyone with anarchist tendencies would no doubt agree with that. But putting things in perspective, who is committing the biggest crimes?