Take a train - a fleet of minibus' is hardly the nessage we want to give

You mean from an environmental point of view? Fair enough. But it's better than a fleet of cars.

For the whole week of protests - Edinburgh, Faslane, Dungavel, then Gleneagles itself, there is a fair bit of travelling around involved, those places are not that close together. Minibuses mean that we can travel in fairly self-sufficient groups of 12 or 13, we can take our tents & other gear, makes it more practical to share cooking equipment & take food for the week.

I see so a road vehicle trip is justified providing it means it makes your life more convenient - I see thanks for clearing that up for me.

You couldn't make it up !

Thousands are going to be traveling to Scotland to campaign on issues directly related to selfish behaviour exactly like this. Why do you think mothers take their children to school by car, why do you think people use them to commute or go on holiday ? Because it is easier than public transport !!!! You should be setting an example of high life can be without the convenience of car or mini bus use not trying to justify it.

You should be bloody ashamed of yourselves.

I presume that speechless and disgusted are non- impact freshairians who have been kidnapped from out of their envionmentally sound cave and forced, probably at gunpoint to use nasty electricity in order to access the insidious internet so that they can slam others for not being as perfect as they obviously are. As one of the selfish drivers, i can only say that it is true that I will find it much easier to drive for countless hours in order to transport many people around the inaccessable sites, rather than putting my feet up on a nice comfy Virgin train, and then bitching at others when i'm stuck in the middle of a field. What can I say, I just live burning fossil fuels.
I bow at your feet and hope that one day I too will attain such holier than thou perfectionism.
m

"One of the Scum" is just copping out. Another fucking weak excuse to deal with your own guilt. There are twenty of us coming up from Southampton and we will be using the train to get there (thanks Dissent) and then using our bikes or walking. There is no need for cars or mini buses. Do you not see the damage you are doing ?

I think that others have to be less judgemental. The use of cars and minibusses is all right for those of us who are trying to change things. It's other people who must be stopped.

There are twenty of us coming up from Southampton and we will be using the train to get there (thanks Dissent)

And from the Dissent website (here  http://www.dissent.org.uk/content/view/44/97/#transportation)

We are asking that all local groups consider renting mini-buses for the period of the convergence, and that they have additional drivers who can help with transport. Renting a mini-bus is actually a cheap way for a group of people to get up to Scotland, and will help with travel to and from the convergence space which will be remote.

There are going to be important protests (particularly from my point of view the protest at Dungavel on the Tuesday) scattered over an area of hundreds of miles. You simply cannot walk or cycle these distances in the times necessary. Many of the convergence centres and protest sites are remote. They're either not served at all or inadequately served by public transport, besides which the police are talking about closing down train stations in the area of Gleneagles.

The G8 is being held in the middle of the Scottish countryside to make it as difficult as possible for us to protest effectively. Why should we then further hobble ourselves with this kind of purist crap:

I see so a road vehicle trip is justified providing it means it makes your life more convenient - I see thanks for clearing that up for me.

What's more important: being effective, or feeling good about ourselves because we're so much better than those who engage in 'selfish behaviour' like 'mothers tak[ing] their children to school by car'?

Quote
"We are asking that all local groups consider renting mini-buses for the period of the convergence, and that they have additional drivers who can help with transport. Renting a mini-bus is actually a cheap way for a group of people to get up to Scotland, and will help with travel to and from the convergence space which will be remote."

taken from the dissent webpage

Gleneagles is 42 miles from Edinburgh, the average person walks about 2-3 mph...this means that it will take you approx 14 hours by foot, probably half that by bike...
well done to those who can cycle and/or walk that far, not everyone is so fit or has a bicycle...

I need no weak excuses, nor do I feel guilty...
i actually agree that it is not a good way to travel but can see
The Bigger Picture, people
m

It's easy once you know how!

Find a group doing something political (make sure they're lefties now though, you don't want any fascists kicking your teeth in) and then find some kind of compromise they've made, or some minor contradiction in what they're saying. Extra points if you can make it all about the environment or class!

Go after that contradiction with all guns blazing: call the group lazy, call them selfish, all the time implying that you're much, much lefter than they are. Don't use your real name though, that'd be cheating.

How about an example?

Here's the original comment:

You couldn't make it up !

Thousands are going to be traveling to Scotland to campaign on issues directly related to selfish behaviour exactly like this. Why do you think mothers take their children to school by car, why do you think people use them to commute or go on holiday ? Because it is easier than public transport !!!! You should be setting an example of high life can be without the convenience of car or mini bus use not trying to justify it.

You should be bloody ashamed of yourselves.
Speechless

This is already a really good example. Notice how it gets an accusation of selfishness in whilst simultaneously associating people with stereotypical middle-class behaviour. Not only is the target group attacked for not being green enough, there's also an implication that they're class traitors as well. It's a brilliant example of lefter than thou gamesmanship.

But no one is immune from lefter than thou fun! How about this come back:

You're obviously totally divorced from real life - what are you, some sort of middle class student scum [pile the insults together - it really works!] poncing round on mummy and daddy's credit card and your bus pass?! Some of us have to live in the real world not in some purist day dream. You try raising kids and trying to get them about on underfunded, unreliable crappy buses and trains. Try getting a job before you complain about commuters!!! [always use triple exclamation marks, it adds to the impression of incoherent rage which is always a sure sign that someone is lefter than thou]

Your kind make me sick!!!

See how easy it is? Much more fun than actually doing anything.

as if the g8 are going to take the blindest bit of notice of the means of transportation of any of you. Wake up.

It's the Animal Farm syndrome here again I'm afraid. At the G8 protest more than anywhere we should be seen to be doing the right thing. Weak excuses like those given above do not cut it, so what if the local transport system is poor. Let's use it and illustrate how poor it is.

Too say that we are trying to discourage car use and then use them ourselves because somehow our need is so much more important than the wider population holds us up as hypocrites.

Regarding the drivers for Minibuses, I just did a quick check on this...

 http://www.dvla.gov.uk/drivers/drvmbus.htm

For those of who've got a driving license on January 1st 1997 or later,were're not excluded from driving a minibus, there are new rules we're effectively excluded from driving for personal gain: The following is taken directly from the above link.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
2. Drivers who do not have minibus entitlement (Category D1)
If your driving licence does not allow you to drive minibuses, there are certain circumstances where you still may be able to do so.

You may drive a minibus with up to 16 passenger seats if:

i) you drive on behalf of a non commercial body for social purposes but not for hire or reward, unless operating under a permit;

ii) you are aged 21;

iii) you have held a car (category B) licence for at least 2 years;

iv) you are providing your service on a voluntary basis; and

v) the minibus maximum weight is not more than 3.5 tonnes excluding any specialist equipment for the carriage of disabled passengers. Minibuses up to 4.25 tonnes will be permitted in certain circumstances.

vi)if you are aged 70 and over, you are able to meet the health standards for driving a vehicle (i.e. minibus) which comes within the D1 class;

When driving a minibus under these conditions you may not receive any payment or consideration for doing so other than out of pocket expenses or tow any size trailer; you may only drive minibuses in this country.

Drivers aged 70 or over will need to make a special application which involves meeting higher medical standards.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I've just learnt something very useful, thus for what is a voluntary basis more drivers are now able to offer themselves up for driving a minibus to Scotland.

I won't comment fully on the environmental issues, but for those who are having a rather old fashioned English 'moan' why didn't you organise amongst yourselves a march on foot (a few months ago) or a mass cycle from your location to Edinburgh and onto Gleneagles, rather than attacking those who are attempting to organise a collective and cooperative method of getting anti-G8 protestors up North.

TTFN!

To the anti minibus purist
I'm 62, with arthritis, so although I can drive ok and have driven minibuses, should I not volunteer to drive, so that you can keep such useless people and others with disabilities or frailty away? You'd be very good in The Ministry of Truth.
I would like to go to support the possibility of real change.
Perhaps the purist would better spend his/her time picking their nose rather than nits. Life without some compromise is a life of extremism-pathetic.Basa

Funny how so many people are quick to justify the use of vehicles when its THEM who would otherwise be inconvenienced.

If anything "doesn't wash", its most likely the dreadful self-righteous hippie filth who would have us all snorting ket and poisoning our dogs with vegan food.

To the minibuses, comrades!

Im disgusted with eveyone writing on this email list. You are using computers they require electricity it comes from coal power stations. Lots of pollution. Also parts of computers pollute terribly after they are used.

People shold only disgus things with people in earshot.

I also wonder how many trees have been cut down to clear railways lines. Thats tribble big metal rail cutting through virgin countryside.

"should be doing better things" I love you
m