How about a stop the suicide bombers march? Don't you see that the conflict in the Middle East is being fuelled by suicide bombings carried out by Paltestinian terrorists! Stop the suicide bombings and the conflict war in the Middle War will stop.

It is also strange how you never spoke out against the genocide in Rwanda or the current massacres in the Dafur region of Sudan. But you constantly criticise Israel for defending itself against terrorism! Then you expect everyone to believe you when you say you are not anti-semitic!

Toms right. Israel hasnt breached 67 UN resolutions from 1956-1992 (way before suicide bombings even started) by constantly murdering, raping, and expanding into palestinian land. The ratio of palestinians to Israeli's killed by attacks is not 5:1, and Israel is not separating palestinian families by building a wall going through their land and leaving half of those families on one side and the other half on the other side.

Tom is a historical, political, and sociological genius.

The UK political Left is organising as many anti-Israeli actions as it can at the moment because a combination of the security fence which has reduced suicide bombers and the ever growing links between Israeli and Palestinians means they have become marginalised in the Middle East.

It is so satisfying to watch groups like the ISM who have done so much harm to the peace process now be recognised by the Palestinians for the politicaly motivated rabble rousers they are.

The people of Israel and Paelstine are solving their own problems, building links between their communities and rejecting the extremists of Hamas etc.

...which is the ILLEGAL occupation of Palestine that's been going on for DECADES now. Israel, by ignoring literally dozens of UN resolutions to get out of the illegally occupied territories, by inflicting daily humiliation, oppression, torture, demolitions, shootings, shellings, air attacks and blatant theft of Palestinian land to make the apartheid wall is deliberately inciting the opressed Palestinians into committing desperate acts. When the entire world seems to turn it's back on the issue, and the USA,
by obscene levels of aid and weapons actually aids and abets the Israelis in inflicting ongoing opression - how can you zionists be surprised that a few hot-heads see no other way out of their oppression except by inflicting violence in return?

You zionists are selectively blind if you think that Palestine fuels the conflict. How come three times as many Palestinians as Israelis are consistently killed in the violence week in week out? It's THE OCCUPATION, THE OCCUPATION, THE OCCUPATION that is the root problem. And stop your pathetic, catatonic knee-jerking "anti semitic!" claims.

In short, the real scandal today is not antisemitism but the importance it is given. Israel has committed war crimes. It has implicated Jews generally in these crimes, and Jews generally have hastened to implicate themselves. This has provoked hatred against Jews. Why not? Some of this hatred is racist, some isn't, but who cares? Why should we pay any attention to this issue at all? Is the fact that Israel's race war has provoked bitter anger of any importance besides the war itself? Is the remote possibility that somewhere, sometime, somehow, this hatred may in theory, possibly kill some Jews of any importance besides the brutal, actual, physical persecution of Palestinians, and the hundreds of thousands of votes for Arabs to be herded into transit camps? Oh, but I forgot. Drop everything. Someone spray-painted antisemitic slogans on a synagogue.

Gideon Levy in todays Haartez:  http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/576301.html

"Terrorism has abated for many months. With the exception of the attack at the Stage club in Tel Aviv, the fear of suicide bombers has receded, and our lives have returned to normal. This fundamental change has not occurred out of the blue, and those who think it can be wholly attributed to the actions of the security forces are mistaken. It was a Palestinian decision to stop the hostilities and to give Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) a chance.

The quiet could have been exploited to create a real change in our attitude toward the Palestinians. They are now led by the most moderate leadership they have ever had, creating an opportunity to try to begin a fair dialogue with them.

But Israel chose to refrain from any expression of goodwill, any decent gesture, any serious effort to meet and to work toward rapprochement. As in the past, the quiet was seen as a sign of weakness and surrender, enabling us to continue to go our own way, unhindered. Thus another missed opportunity, which cried out for attention, was recorded in the history of the conflict."

I'm all in favour of a "stop the suicide bombers" march Tom - but for the reasons that Gideon Levy gives, not your half baked racist analysis.

I trust Mr. Levy a lot more than I trust you.

I am used to reading bollox about the Palestinian situation here on Indy but the comment from ftp really takes the piss

"It was a Palestinian decision to stop the hostilities and to give Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) a chance."


The lack of attacks into Israel have been the result of two major changes as everyone who visits the area knows.

1) the fence (or wall if you like). This has allowed the Israeli Army and Palestinian security forces to stop some 40 odd attempts to bring suicide bombers into Israel

2) the courage of the ordinary Palestinians, who sick of the tactics of organisations like Hamas are refusing to co-operate with them.

for those like me who are in the area all the time we can see a real light at the end of the tunnel. Psudeo intellectual Left wing crap from Europeans and Americans who never visit and never see the result of their ideas we don't need.

Nice comment Edward K. The problems of the Middle East are probably closer now to being solved that at any time in the past 20 years and the last thing the people there need are so called "Peace Activists".

wrote that - not me. I believe he "is in the area all the time" ......... and he is an Israeli journalist of long standing.

Read the article why doncha?

I'm aware that the Hasbarah trick is to pretend that peace is just around the corner.

Now shall I believe an anonymous poster who calls himself or should I believe Gideon Levy on this one?

A tough decision it is not :)

My advice would be to go with the agenda driven journo who provides a viewpoint you choose to think is true. If any facts come along that are not in keeping with that view, then ignore them

Baa Baa

If the UK were being occupied by an alien force, I'd like to think I'd do what I could to expel them. Be that bullet or bomb!

I believe the palestinians are prepared to settle for much less than complete expulsion of israeli occupiers. That is to stop encroaching further on palestinian land and being able to go about there daily business!

Its easy to blame the suicide bombers, but if the israeli's didn't continue with building of illegal settlements and a huge concrete barrier, then more and more palestinians would not resort to suicide bombings.

why do I suspect that you're one of the other posters on this thread?

It's nice that you think all the anonymous ones aren't "agenda driven" ......

;)

You'll be delighted to know that Gideon Levy is not my only source of opinion/information on the Israel/Palestine conflict I'm sure.

Now remind me of the "facts" that I ignored - cos I can't find them.

Baa indeed

... worse than dropping a one ton bomb on a sleeping residential apartment, killing several women and children, in the hope of eliminating one 'terrorist' (not that there is any legal basis for this title, not having been tested judicially)?

How about blowing up an old granmothers house - with her medicines, photos and memoribilia inside - because her granson dared to fight back against the tanks that invade and spray fire around his school & comminity?

What about detention centre 1391? Invisable and unknown to the vast majority, this is the place where israeli facist forces drag very young Palestinian men and violate their bodies and minds (Abu Ghraib style) - sexual humiliation, solitary confinment, beatings, starvation, sensory depravation followed by sensory overload, relatives dragged in - or threaten with arrest - to 'weaken resistance'. Then the coup de grace, offer them work permits, housing permits, a life free from arbitary arrest and detention - if they will act as stooges, informers, infiltrators (all with the threat of return for them and their families remaining). Perhaps even the odd manchurian candidate for those whose minds are gone or subject to total control (how easy it is to break people) - and low and behold you have your premade suicide bomber, always ready to go into action when the talk of peace and reproachment becomes too strong!!!

Cant' be true? Impossible? They wouldn't?

Yeah, and I have a nice big hole for you to put your head in, over here in the sand ...

The issue of who wants peace is central to the conflict isn't it?

So who does?

Does a facist military religious zealot - who believes that god told them it was all theirs for the taking, and why not you have tanks, they have stones?

Does a dirt poor refugee, longing for a real life - some nice food perhaps, a bit of land to grow crops, raise children - certain in the knowledge that any act of resistance/defience could see them dead, imprisoned, their family home destroyed and their family exiled?

If you don't discriminate the information you recive through the channel of 'who benefits' then you can not see the real picture emerge.

If you believe that god told you to do it (and you utterly believe in god - despite ignoring some of the other things 'he' says[sic], like be nice to each other etc) why do you need to listen to anybody else?. Why debate here with all those nasty lefty liberal anti-semites?

Or is it the fact that the temporal power of israel is an illusion? Can't exist without immense military and economic support from outside (aren't those fundamentalist christian zionists nice to you - despite believing that you are satans spawn and only useful in dying on mass when jesus returns!). The political pressure to resolve the israel/Palestine conflict through negotiation , involves concession. Involves giving up stolen land, involves acknowledging that Palestinians are people, have equal rights - not diminished or lesser, EQUAL, - and have historical aspirations for the land they have lived in for thousands of years.

These concession are the things that kill the zionist plan of dominating the region - from the med to the euphrates -, reduce the profits from the sweat shops in and around israel, remove the thorn in the side of arab political landscape ... in short, peace is bad for business.

Luckily a 'suicide bomber' is always there when you need it.

The security fence may well stop lots of resistance activity - that doesn't justify it one bit. In the same way that nature abhors a vacumn (weeds will find a way through even concrete), human nature will resist tyranny. Fence or no fence, israel will not prosper while it has its foot on the neck of the region.

Your tritium, your uranium replenishing plants, your amerikan fighter jets, your complex tanks - will all cease to operate one day (especially as the economic blockade grows). Amerika is slipping into the same mire that all empires do - and when it goes, you will be left naked and facing those who your actions have humiliated, killed, raped and destroyed. Good luck!

Pity that you have lost all the friends that might have helped you.

One day the full awful truth about the zionists plans - from hertz to sharon - will out. You will be held to account for the mass deceptions and genocide you have helped shape and direct. The real pity lies in the very real risk that your fellow jews will be held to account for things they did not do, barely profited from and completly misunderstood.

I am a messenger - shoot me.

Quick ! We need someone to write some lies about Israel. Who can we rely upon to justify any sucicide bombing, any repression of the Palestinian people by the PA, any attack on Israeli citizens

(Drum Roll)

Step forward Jacklucid. Nice Jack -right on time as usual.

Now if you would like to get back in your cupboard and continue to push pins into Jewish dolls we'll let you know when we need you again.

... obviously an anonoumous one, but are you a hebrew semite, an arab semite or an aramaic semite?

Also, refute 'the lies about israel' with some facts if you really want to impress.

No Jacksluice, YOU brought up the lies - YOU prove them. We don't have to prove anything, and we certainly don't need to prove a negative. YOU prove that centre 1391 or whatever exists - what a load of bollox!!! You've been reading too many James Bond stories.

And you WISH Israeli economic power is diminishing - HAH ! Read the business pages of any good paper and you'll see differently. Or look at 21st century israel website: www.israel21c.org and find out for yourself.

You ask what kind of semite we are - the kind you anti-semites hate, that's what!

... still anonomous I see ...

... and, if your ability to pick up on, ingest and then regurgetate even the spelling of my name (in both my sig & my email address - thanks for all the spam by the way guys! Hint: receiving very rude emails and persistant adverts from the israeli tourist board doesn't put me off political activity, nor do the threats against me stop me in my tracks.) is any indication of your attitude to the facts demonstrated to you, then no wonder you are so reactionary and defensive ... you are easily confused!

... still clutching to the belief that calling me an anti-semite for opposing what only a minority of semites do, is going to deflect attention away from the crimes you support ...

OK - what is it that you claim that I am lying about? (get ready ...)

You think your economy is healthy because the rich people tell you so!?! Now thats funny! I'm sure you would have been one of those still believing their stockbroker, just before they lost every penny you owned in whatever crash that INEVITABLY happens when you underwrite an economy on loans, bad money and unsustainable policies.

Do a search on human rights abuses in israel, try amnesty, the UN, israeli groups and ngo's - it's easy, if you are reading this then you already have the ability to do that ...

Perhaps I am to nieve, to trusting of human nature, but I really can not believe that there is not a part of you that cringes when you try to justify your continual support for that which is wrong - wrong on the most basic of human levels -, that there is not a voice that attempts to gain control of your mouth when you spout such OBVIOUS untruths and viceral hatred of those different from you ... if there is, you can display it any time.

It doesn't have to be this way ...

By the way, the existence of Facility 1391 is incontestable, viz:

 http://www.icj-sweden.org/Facility1391.pdf - report from the Swedish section of the International Commission of Jurists

Eye-witness reports in the Guardian  http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1084796,00.html

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3255396.stm - the Israeli government itself admits the existence of the secret facility!

Don't let your ideology blind you to the facts.

I thought this might interest you. This sight seems to be devoted to the Palestinians 'right of return.' Without denying the Palestinians a right to a home-land, I would like to highlight the arab-jewish communities suffering at the hands of the arabs.

I am the daughter of a Lebanese Jew living in London, whose family had lived in Lebanon for centuries. At the creation of a Jewish homeland (following the massacre of 2/3rds of Ashkenazi-European Jewry), it may surprise you to find that the Sephardic Jews (those of the middle east) were, like Palestinians, labelled 'refugees.'
In the years before Israel’s existence, they lived under Arab rule with no passports or basic freedoms entitled to Arabs. With the creation of the state of Israel, 1 million mizrachi-jews were ethnically cleansed from the Arab world (my father being one of them). Aside form the frequent violence and pogroms against them, they were forcibly made into refugees (despite their roots being in the Arab world for centuries) and forced to leave. Sephardic Jews were not only expelled by the Arab world, but their homes were given to the Arabs or destroyed, and their money taken. So, like the Palestinians, they were penniless and stateless.
My father was lucky (and talented) enough to attend art-school, despite having no financial assistance, or a place to live. His drawings on the streets of Beirut obviously proved something!
Nowadays the Sephardic Jews live all over the world (in and outside of Israel) and are a respected as part of a flourishing community. Yes, they were refugees, yes they outnumbered those Palestinians that left Palestine 2 to 1, and Yes they had nothing, purely down to institutional arab racism.The key difference is that they got on with their lives, and didnt descend in to a state of corruption and victimhood.
If you ask my father weather he wants his 'right of return' to Lebanon. Or my grandmother weather she wants her house in Beirut back. Or the ancient Beirut synagogue to be restored after its destruction at the hands of fundamentalist Arabs. Or the thousands upon thousands of Arab Jews from Morocco, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, (the list goes on) who lost everything. They may be inclined to say that the Arab world was essentially racist, and anti-Semitic, and they wouldn’t consider going anywhere near their ancient ancestral roots.
It may also interest you to read more about Arab anti-Semitism, perhaps embodied by the grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and his frequent meetings with Adolph Hitler to solve ‘the Jewish problem in the middle-east.’. http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php

If you would like to know more about the story of the ancient mizrahi/sephardic Jews...

 http://www.sephardicjews.com/
 http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/arabjew.html
www.al-bab.com/arab/background/jews.ht

There are plenty more resources on the net. I hope, maybe, this will shed some light on having a one-dimensional view of the Israel Palestine conflict.
Salaam/Shalom
Mariam

I AM AN ARAB JEW LIVING IN SYRIA. HERE WE ARE TREATED LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE AND MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS ARE ALL LIVING SIDE BY SIDE AND THAT IS THE HISTORY OF ARABS AND JEWS. SO I AM SICK OF HEARING THESE ZIONIST PIGS TALK ABOUT HOW BAD THE ARABS TREAT JEWS-THIER IGNORES DOES NOT ALLOW THEM TO SEE THAT A LARGE NUMBER OF JEWS ARE ARAB!!!

BEING JEWISH IS A RELIGION STOP MAKING IT INTO A NATIONALITY.

I AM PROUD TO BE AN ARAB JEW AND TO KNOW THAT ARABS HAVE NOT A TRACE OF RACISM TOWARD US-IT IS THE ZIONISTS AND ISRAELI'S THAT THEY RIGHTLY DISPISE, AND AS A JEW I AM SICKNED BY THE ILEGAL STATE OF ISRAEL-USING MY RELIGION'S NAME AS AN EXCUSE TO TAKE OVER THE ARAB WORLD.

ARABS ARE NOT RACIST OR ANTI-SEMITIC BECUASE THEY HATE ISRAEL-MOST JEWS HATE ISRAEL-LOOK AT ALL THE JEWS WHO BUILD CAMPAIGNS TO SUPPORT PALESTINE. ARE THEY ANTI-SEMITIC.

ZIONIST WANT THE WORLD TO THINK THAT JEWS ARE VICTIMS OF THE ARABS, BUT THE TRUTH IS THE JEWS ARE VICTIMS OF ZIONISM AND TYRANNY AND A SEVERELY CLEVER AND EVIL PROPAGANDA IN THE WEST.

JEWS AND ARABS ARE LIVING HAPPILY TOGETHER-COME AND SEE FOR YOURSELVES.

THERE IS A STREET IN SYRIA CALLED THE STREET OF THE JEWS, AND ITS BEEN THERE FOR CENTURIES-NOT ONE ATTACK HAS EVER BEEN REPORTED THERE!

HOW FUNNY THAT THE ZIONISTS WANT PEOPLE TO BELIEVE THAT ARABS ARE EVIL AND ANTI-SEMITIC AND THEY FORGET TO TELL THEM OF ALL THE ARAB JEWS LIVING HAPPILY IN ALL THE ARAB COUNTRIES!

BEING AGAINST ISRAEL IS NOT BEING AGAINST JEWS-THEY ARE NOT AND WILL NEVER BE ONE AND THE SAME.

ISRAEL WILL FALL VERY SOON, AND I WILL BE AMONG THE HAPPY ARAB JEWS WHO WILL CELEBRATE WITH THE CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS AND THE THOUSANDS OF ARAB JEWS TOGETHER!

SO EAT YOUR HEART OUT ZIONIST PIGS!

I AM AN ARAB JEW LIVING IN SYRIA. HERE WE ARE TREATED LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE AND MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS ARE ALL LIVING SIDE BY SIDE AND THAT IS THE HISTORY OF ARABS AND JEWS. SO I AM SICK OF HEARING THESE ZIONIST PIGS TALK ABOUT HOW BAD THE ARABS TREAT JEWS-THIER IGNORES DOES NOT ALLOW THEM TO SEE THAT A LARGE NUMBER OF JEWS ARE ARAB!!!

BEING JEWISH IS A RELIGION STOP MAKING IT INTO A NATIONALITY.

I AM PROUD TO BE AN ARAB JEW AND TO KNOW THAT ARABS HAVE NOT A TRACE OF RACISM TOWARD US-IT IS THE ZIONISTS AND ISRAELI'S THAT THEY RIGHTLY DISPISE, AND AS A JEW I AM SICKNED BY THE ILEGAL STATE OF ISRAEL-USING MY RELIGION'S NAME AS AN EXCUSE TO TAKE OVER THE ARAB WORLD.

ARABS ARE NOT RACIST OR ANTI-SEMITIC BECUASE THEY HATE ISRAEL-MOST JEWS HATE ISRAEL-LOOK AT ALL THE JEWS WHO BUILD CAMPAIGNS TO SUPPORT PALESTINE. ARE THEY ANTI-SEMITIC.

ZIONIST WANT THE WORLD TO THINK THAT JEWS ARE VICTIMS OF THE ARABS, BUT THE TRUTH IS THE JEWS ARE VICTIMS OF ZIONISM AND TYRANNY AND A SEVERELY CLEVER AND EVIL PROPAGANDA IN THE WEST.

JEWS AND ARABS ARE LIVING HAPPILY TOGETHER-COME AND SEE FOR YOURSELVES.

THERE IS A STREET IN SYRIA CALLED THE STREET OF THE JEWS, AND ITS BEEN THERE FOR CENTURIES-NOT ONE ATTACK HAS EVER BEEN REPORTED THERE!

HOW FUNNY THAT THE ZIONISTS WANT PEOPLE TO BELIEVE THAT ARABS ARE EVIL AND ANTI-SEMITIC AND THEY FORGET TO TELL THEM OF ALL THE ARAB JEWS LIVING HAPPILY IN ALL THE ARAB COUNTRIES!

BEING AGAINST ISRAEL IS NOT BEING AGAINST JEWS-THEY ARE NOT AND WILL NEVER BE ONE AND THE SAME.

ISRAEL WILL FALL VERY SOON, AND I WILL BE AMONG THE HAPPY ARAB JEWS WHO WILL CELEBRATE WITH THE CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS AND THE THOUSANDS OF ARAB JEWS TOGETHER!

SO EAT YOUR HEART OUT ZIONIST PIGS!

Why does the media ignore killinga by State / Arm, but give enormous amount of coverage to killings by sucicide bombers? The Israeli Army has been bombing the Gaza Strip almost continually for weeks, at least 18 people have been killed, I only found this out via the internet, but when a suicide bomber kills 4 people its all over the papers, radio and tv. Can any give me a credible answer?