Whilst I do appreciate the comments about the hate mail and the sun and am only too familiar with there rhetoric I would like to point out that i feel that whilst we should stand up for minorities I would want people to be aware that some gypsies do in fact cause a problem.

I was a traveller in 91 and lived with a guy who was an Irish gypsie, he described to me his growing up and explained that from a young age his parents would use him and his brothers to gain entry to houses, by going through small holes and then opening the doors to let the parents in and then they would all rob the place.

I spent my childhood on a London/Kent housing estate hanging out with gipsies, doing business with them and knew most of them to be "drumming" propertys, (burglers)also i watched them terrorising people around the housing estate over a number of years.
stabing, raping and doing other violent things which are bang out of order, this wasnt one family it was in fact many familys, with numbers going into the hundreds.

I also had a girlfriend who was a gypsie and she and the guy that I hung around with had been abused by their parents.

I now have some family living near to Cambridgshire and the village where they live has nearby a large and controvercial site.
People living near to the site have been broken into and recieved various threats and violence from some of the people on the site.

Now im not saying that all gipsies are out of order, and im not looking for an arguament, but i am pointing out my experience living for a number of years and having some unusual experiences with gipsies.

Whilst it is good to point out what those cunts at the Sun and Hate mail, mindlessly churn out, I do have to point out that some peoples lives are made sheer hell by members of the gipsie/traveller community.

The entire gypsy / traveller issue is a difficult one. While I agree there should be land for them to use I do not agree with the taking over of greenbelt land and its exploitation. Britain is not short of land and some could be made available. The MoD for examle owns vast amounts as do the Royal Family and the very rich.

unbelievable that any national news paper can get away with such openly racist remarks, i hope some one takes them to court

to get what they want, it's very useful for right-wing newspapers to turn the news focus onto something which indirectly creates the desired outcome. so in the run up to an election, it's handy to whip up some hysteria, some little-englander self-righteousness, so rebe-kka-kka-kka wade can keep hitting the bigot button for her quasi fascist boss rupert and his government chums. now ruperts's government chums at this difficult juncture for free market capitalism, are both the labour aprty +and+ the conservatives. it is all supposed to turn into a pitched and heated battle between these two camps. rupe doesn't really mind who wins, what he doesn't want is anyone to talk abou +other possibilities+. so get heated about gypsies or whatever and are the tories or labour the best to sort it out but what ever you do don't vote lib dem or socialist or green because rupe's grand plan would go down the toilet. rupe, of course, has exactly the same interests as rothermere of the mail, blair and howard in government and bush over the water. the difference is a big pretend. so, people. are you going to vote labour/tory or are you going to go for +big change+? don't say voting libdem isn't a big change because, as a transitional move, it'll be big.

what would you do for money?

£750,000 a year plus share options. not baaaaad.

the british press awards are on tuesday 15th march tonight! at the london hilton hotel park lane 6.45pm till 7.30pm we will be protesting and leafletting come along and support our action against journocops and state compromised media - notes from the borderland magazine. our website is at www.borderland.co.uk

i saw an article claiming that red nose day had bee given a hard time for donating something like £3,000 to eight traveller/ gypsie groups towards legal advice and other nessecities.

considering the huge amounts of money involved in comic relief, i think this is outrageous; travellers and gypsies (as do all parts of society) deserve the support they need to create sustainable lives. and if this is a grant off comic relief.. so be it. ouch!

Ever wondered why papers like the Sun run these sort of stories ? Since this particular campaign has started Sun readership has risen by 14% ! This is what people want to read about, the people of Britain have a very clear, set view and the Sun and The Mail reflect that view.

 http://www.mywiseowl.com/articles/Newspaper_circulation

shortlist:

Reporter of the Year

Trevor Kavanagh,The Sun
Daniel Foggo, The Sunday Telegraph
David Rose, The Observer
Neville Thurlbeck, News of the World
John Askill, The Sun
Graham Johnson, Sunday Mirror


haahaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How can a country that gives so much every Red Nose day be so tolerant pof scabs like the Sun and its readership in their midst?

I know I'm being controversial here, but why don't travellers accept the way the world works and settle down like everyone else?
Is this moving about not a contributing factor to low educational achievement, rootlessness, unemployability, low social cohesion/integration?

the sun? corporate america? oh yes, our most patriotic rag is actually an american front operation since brother rupert moved newscorp to the US. read it and weep jingoists and hate merchants.

Just like the New York and Chicago fear campaigns against radical activists, and plenty of recent racist campaigns against Latin Americans and Asians

Acoording to our old friend 'Abu Burkan' (hm yeah) Travellers should respond to racism by giving in, abandoning their millenia-old way of life and jolly well doing as The Sun and The Daily Mail tell them to. Nice bit of tolerance there!

By an incredible coincidence, this is the same 'Abu Burkan' who posts hysterical anti-Muslim rants at the slightest mention of anything vaguely Muslim-related.

Which illustrates the point that one form of racism feeds another. Once you start hating 'outsiders', once you feel it's okay to demand that people stop being different from you, then it eats up your soul.

And by the same token anti-racists need to stand together. So all of us who have stood up against anti-Muslim racism need to stand up against this anti-Traveller campaign too. If any group can be dehumanised it makes it easier to attack us all. 'First they came for...'etc.

Get involved!

Gypsy and Traveller Law Reform Coalition:
 http://www.travellerslaw.org.uk/

Don't any of you numpties ever visit the real world. Gypsy children racially beaten to death. God you have the front to have a go at right wing papers when you looney tunes just invent a load of shite.

Do they skewer and barbecue these beaten to death gypsy children and why haven't I seen it on my street corner.

Get a life, you morons have no clue of life. Your heads are well stuck up your arse. In fact keeping them there will do the real world a favour.

I wonder if these right wing trolls ever bother to read the articles or do they just skip to the bottom to make their hate filled comments...

> I know I'm being controversial here, but why don't travellers accept the way the world
> works and settle down like everyone else?

hey, guess what... many travellers do want to settle down, it's scum like you that want them to move on and so they get chased from one place to another. Even buying their own land doesn't stop them being moved own.

> Is this moving about not a contributing factor to low educational achievement,
> rootlessness, unemployability, low social cohesion/integration?

Eh, obviously. If you evict a family from their land and force them out of the neighbourhood then their kids will obviously end up having their schooling disrupted.

However, who are you (or the rest of your sun reading buddies) to tell other people how to live. Nomadic cultures through out the world predate your McDonald's consuming TV culture and also a very long tradition in this country. Further more, migrant workers are essential to many industries.

"looney left", "numpties", "looney tunes", "get a life", "you morons have no clue", "your heads are well stuck up your arse".

contempt, it's a flag of failure.

"Even buying their own land doesn't stop them being moved own"

Peeple wouldn't mind so much of they didn't buy green belt land listed as not 'for development' and then go and build on it. Where I live (Sussex) we have seen this throughout the county. Next door to my house is a SSSI now ruined by three traveller families who decided they wanted to live there. Now we have breeze block housing and a car park.

"who are you (or the rest of your sun reading buddies) to tell other people how to live."

I absolutely agree. Just because the structure of our society doesn't support a certain way of life, we shouldn't be victimising the groups that choose to live their lives that way. Perhaps we should be questioning the rigid assumptions that create the idea of a 'normal' lifestyle.

Is it any wonder that many travellers (as well as members of other victimised and/or under priveleged groups) become violent and anti-social? Why the hell should they show any gratitude to a society that brands them as outsiders?

I am shocked that in 2005 it is still acceptable to derogatorily generalise about travellers and to express such hatred towards a group of people simply because they are different.

Dear Indy Media,
reading your page on travellers, I feel that this country (UK) has slipped back into the mindset of the 1930s Germany that spawned National Socialism. I live in a little caravan and have a well paid job and pay taxes. My way of life is no-one elses business and I want to live in a democracy but not one like this. A slippery slope is the route we are on now, ending up with barb wire camps and ghettoes to satisfy, thick as shit, right wing morons who could not even spell democracy.

kind regards, ChrisRR

The headlines in the Sun and Daily Mail were undoubtedly racist fear mongering, undoubtedly to get race into the general election. Don't just moan about it complain, follow the links on the following webpage -  http://www.powertothepeople.org.uk/content/media/med_account.htm

The Press Complaints Commission, at the moment, just protects individuals in the press spotlight, such as the Royals, but through it all 'newspapers' have laughingly signed up to Article 1 of PCC Code of Practice, which reads; "The Press must take care not to publish inaccurate, misleading or distorted information" and "A significant inaccuracy, misleading statement or distortion once recognised must be corrected, promptly and with due prominence, and - where appropriate - an apology published." If you read a blatant lie in the press complain, write to the PCC quoting that Article 1 of the code of practice has been broken. If you complain the PCC is obliged to investigate and report upon its findings. It wont revolutionise the media, but it might force 'newspapers' to explain themselves, admit willful errors and print humiliating withdrawals, or, it will show 'self regulation' to be a farce, either way it is worth doing. The PCC only received 3649 complaints in 2003 and it's figures are published and reported upon. If enough of us complain we could have a real impact, especially as the 'newspaper' industry lauds the PCC as the pillar of it's 'self regulation', claiming that it ensures of 'ethical reporting standards'. Just perhaps, through it, we can successfully Hold 'Em To Account!

I am slightly confused- Roma are a genuine racial group whereas travellers do not appear to be so. Obviously I don't want bouts of random violence or whatever but I would like to know why it is that attacks etc on travellers are racist- on the evidence that I see they aren't a separate group.

"Therefore the community has no choice but to apply for permission retroactively, after they move on the land."

You don't seem to understand how the law works - you can't just ignore it because X% of the time you don't get the decision you want. Have you ever bothered to stop and think that the fact 90% of these applications are turned down is because they're in breach of the planning regulations/standards? It's got nothing to do with whether they're gypsies or not, if I went to my local council and asked for permission to park a load of caravans onto a field for several months they'd tell me where to stick it, regardless of whether I happen to be a gypsy or not.

"Gypsies and Travellers are still the least literate, have the lowest mortality rates of any other group in Britain."

Have you ever stopped and thought whether that might actually be related to the way they live their lives? Moving to a new location every few months means that there's little opportunity for children to make friends at school, get into the routine of going to lessons every weekday etc.

I think you mean "highest mortality rates" as well, seeing as a low mortality rate is a good thing...

"Police regularly make brutal attacks on families and communities"

Do you have some evidence to back this up? Or would you like to instead apologise to all the police officers you've undoubtably offended by accusing them of being vicious racist bullies?

Strange how you can't get a decent discussion going on this site. Some weirdo named 'n' posted this attack after a simple set of questions by me. OK, maybe they show me up as a not-so-well-informed member fo the chattering class, but how useful is the reponse I got?

Would it help an ignorant Sun-reader to realise they've been reading a load of rubbish?
Or is 'n' just imitating Chomsky by not explaining the basics to newcomers?
Chomsky can afford to do that, it is a fair assumption to make that his audience will be educated and fairly conversant with the issues, hence it is possible to proceed at a higher level.

But with 'n'..... no.

> I know I'm being controversial here, but why don't travellers accept the way the world
> works and settle down like everyone else?

n: hey, guess what... many travellers do want to settle down, it's scum like you that want them to move on and so they get chased from one place to another. Even buying their own land doesn't stop them being moved own.

Really? I don't remember wanting them to move on. In fact my post said I wanted them to settle down. From what I've heard they get moved on because they don't have the right planning permission. I know it is difficult to get a real picture of what's going on because the media is controlled by rubbish like The Sun, so can someone please tell me why planning permission is such a huge obstacle?

> Is this moving about not a contributing factor to low educational achievement,
> rootlessness, unemployability, low social cohesion/integration?

n: Eh, obviously. If you evict a family from their land and force them out of the neighbourhood then their kids will obviously end up having their schooling disrupted.

However, who are you (or the rest of your sun reading buddies) to tell other people how to live. Nomadic cultures through out the world predate your McDonald's consuming TV culture and also a very long tradition in this country.

Further more, migrant workers are essential to many industries.

I didn't try to tell anyone how to live. But if an itinerant lifestyle means children grow up destined to a life of oppression, crime, low educational/economic achievement and lower life expectancy then everyone has the duty to change that. The traditions of this country can suck my a** for all I care. It is also a longstanding tradition to brown-nose in the presence of royalty. Why don't you defend that?

Nomadic cultures live everywhere and are dying out like flies. I'm not exactly a Borg (Assimilate or Die!) but it is obviously imposible to live half in this world and half out of it. The price you pay is too high. Migrant workers are essential? To what industry? Do you want them to settle or to move? make your mind up!

Abu Burkan

Further to the comment saying 'do something about it' forgive me for re-posting this link:

 http://www.travellerslaw.org.uk

Join the campaign!

Have any of you actually had travellers move in next door to you??

I thought not.

Now let me tell you the truth:

1.You work your nuts off from a zero upbringing within a society that doesn't care.
2. You finally get a "nice" place to raise your kids, thereby saving them from the shit you grew up in.
3. One morning "travellers" move in.
4. Everything not locked or bolted down immediatly dissapears.
5. Everything locked or bolted down dissapears.
6. Yor windows get broken because you object to dogs shitting in your garden.
7. Your car gets damaged because you won't let the whole tribe use your metered water supply without some form of payment (I hold down two jobs to make ends meet).
8. You suffer riot level family fights , daily.
9. You suffer endless police chases all culminating in a car being dumped and burned outside your house.
10.You end up with 12 stitched over your right eye because you try and stop 4 x 16 to 18 year old traveller youths beating the crap out of your 14 year old son ( who was in turn trying to defend his 12 year old sister from the unwanted attention of said youths), all whilst IN your own garden.
11. You suffer the old bill refusing to take action or go into the site "too dangerous mate"..........Yeah I know I live here.
12 You suffer rats attracted by the piles of shit that build up amongst the piles of industrial waste that build up amongst the caravans.
13. And it goes on and on and on and on untill one day they are gone. Leaving the council with a 37,000 pound clean up which includes piles of potentialy leathal asbestos.

Before you make high minded moralistic statements about "freedom" and alternative lifestyles

TRY LIVING NEXT DOOR TO THEM!!


Yanuf.

Yanuf hit the nail right on the head. If you've ever had any of these animals living near you you'll understand that all of this stuff about their 'freedom to live a nomadic lifestyle' is a pile of shit and you'll start seeing them as the filth that they are.

The roots of the hysteria against travellers are'nt hard to discern. For far too many years the 'English countryside' has been the preserve of a privilieged white elite. The planning system is a pillar of the system which preserves inflated property values and ensures that many rural areas remain exclusively occupied by the rich. The same people who scream for de-regulation and neo liberalism are suddenly advocates of stringent planning laws and bureaucratic intervention. Their hypocrisy stinks to high heaven.

Anything to preserve the cultural and economic character of the countryside as an aparthied zone for Britains privilieged. No blacks, no travellers, no Muslims. The population can rot to death in 'de-regulated' slums as long as the 'country club' is open to the right members (white business class only).

Of course the human rights of travellers transcend the narrow rules of the planning system, and can anyone really argue that a traveller's sight has the same ecological impact as an 'executive' housing development or golf club?

Lets fill the countryside with eco-villages and travellers sites - better company than a bunch of genteel fascists who have confused the terrorism of money with democracy.

Typical rhetoric from left wing idiots, always have to find some kind of conspiracy behind everythng. Every thought that rural dwellers are just ordinary people who want to get on with their lives? Then they see their communities invaded and destroyed by a load of brainless, unwashed, antisocial scum. As for not wanting Muslims and other foreigners in, what's wrong with that? Maybe they want to preserve their culture and don't want their way of life to be torn apart in the same way other places have been.

I appreciate that SOME traveller sites do cause problems. I acknowledge that not all travellers are saints. BUT: I teach a couple of traveller kids, and the abuse and grief they get is just untrue. Whilst there are problems surrounding the whole issue, and a variety of opinions on what travellers should or shouldn't do, the whole point of this discussion is that The Sun seems to be flagrantly inciting violence against a minority group. NIMBYism aside, the last thing we need is for the biggest selling daily paper (I think, correct me if I'm wrong)in the UK to be openly encouraging its readers to "Stamp on the Camps". For a reader with slightly less than average discernment skills, that could be just the justification they need to go out and torch a site or do something else stupid.

In the 1930s, millions of Germans read Die Sturmer, which expressed similar views about Jews, homosexuals, the disabled and - yes - gypsies as the British tabloid press. A few years later, around 10 million of these people were dead.

Don't let it happen here. Please

Once again i'm hardly surprised that "The Sun", which by the way calls itself a "family newspaper", is attempting to extend its bigoted and perhaps racial viewpoint to the masses, and according to their aforementioned target audience, to both young and old alike. I accept that there are travellers/gypsies who do commit crimes, violate the rights of others, and are generally a nuisance to todays society. At the same time though i am hardly a saint, i have been racist in the past - but i am trying to change that permanently. Travellers are equal to any other Briton. Many have a longer family tradition in the U.K than those who condemn them. They are no different to immigrants, political prisoners or genuine asylum seekers, a large number of which are welcomed into Britain and are given the fundamental human rights that too many of us take for granted. Put yourself in the place of a gypsy, reading this headline; wouldn't you feel you were being denied those rights, those rights that you have only just realised are crux to your well-being. Empathy on our part, greater understanding and tolerance of these fellow humans are, to me, an absolute obligation. I cannot stress that enough to others.
This is racism, no matter how much "The Sun" and likeminded persons sugar-coat their ideas. It is discrimination against another race, another group of people with their own lifestyles and beliefs, who are being viciously scrutinized because they do not "fit-in" with how the majority of society live today. Simple as that.

Coupla things:

The Sun, while an utterly contemptible little rag, did not start the hate campaign against travellers; it's always been there - fear of the different etc.

News media does not tell people what to think; it merely reflects its readership's obsessions. Do you visit Indymedia sites to be told what you think? No, of course not. You visit them because their outlook to some extent reflects your own. The point of the mainstream news media is to generate revenue through cover price and advertising, and you don't shift units or attract advertisers by dictating to them; you do it by agreeing with them

The problem, then, is not the Daily Mail and The Sun's coverage and treatment (in the non-physical sense) of the travelling community - that's just a function of some rather more fundamental problems within British society - but rather the lack of a mainstream rebuttal of their stories. Where are the contra-arguments in The Independent or The Guardian?

Interesting stats on the planning permission. Sources, please? I've worked with architects who have submitted planning applications that are very carefully drawn up and sympathetic to the areas in which they've been submitted and the approval rate is sig-fucking-nificantly less than 88% I'd be prepared to be proved wrong, but even on the basis of a national average (I live and work in the southeast), I would still be surprised.

I'd also be interested in any information regarding plans amongst travellers' groups to police themselves. I know, I know - most travellers are wonderful and almost entirely sinned against rather than sinning. That said, I can point to six sites within a two-mile radius of where I live that bear the scars of traveller occupation - burned out cars, knee-high rubbish, trees cut down for no reason, graffiti. Is there any initiative within the community to deter rogue travellers from fucking things up for the majority?

Finally - and apologies for going on at such length - some of the shit I've read on this page beggars belief, seems to have been written by the mentally subnormal children of Sun readers. Not wanting your house burgled doesn't make you Rudolf Hess; wanting to see more respect for the traveller community doesn't make you a 'loony', left-wing or otherwise. Let's see some balanced thought. Oversimplified slanging matches rarely provide a helpful solution.

It really makes no difference how we describe 'travellers', whether as 'saints' or 'sinners'. Either way the argument is built on a racist premise: that people should be evaluated on the basis of their ethnicity rather than as individual human beings.

The same tactic can be used to produce hatred towards any group: simply focus on the crimes of Jewsish; Asian; Christian or African individuals, and hold these people up as respresentative of an entire group. Intellectualy it's an equally meaningless exercise - like focusing on the behaviour of people with red hair or long toenails. People fall into the trap of defending or critisising the group concerned, without challenging the ridiculous, racist assumptions behind the argument.

Of course, the tabloid press understand the mechanism of control all too well - the problem any ruling elite faces in running a society so divided by wealth and power has one answer: to protect priviliege the people must be made to hate each other, and new 'folk devils' must be created on a production line basis: asylum seekers; single mothers; migrants; muslims; travellers...ad nauseum.

Welcome to the 'Jew of the Month club' with some new victim heading down the line for public crucifixtion every couple of weeks. Who's next?

PS: I've just realised, most paedophiles appear to be white (Huntley etc) - proof of the depravity of the Anglo Saxon's? I'm just off to burn whiteys house down baby....!

This from the St. Petersburg Times -- not, I think, a noted left-wing liberal numpty moron publication.

"Questions for discussion in class or at home

1. Who do you think gypsies are?
2. Do you have any positive or negative images about them?
3. If so, where do these images come from?
4. Look up the history of the gypsies and discuss why you think they were targeted by the Nazis for destruction."

Useful exercises, particularly no.3.

I was attacked by a black man but I managed not to infer from that that black men were a menace. My wife got punched by a traveller kid, my shop was robbed by traveller boys, my best mate was beaten up by a couple, but I don't suppose that these constitute crimes sufficient to justify "Stamping" on a community. The permanently housed boys who nick the bikes from our shed twice a year -- now for them I'd make an argument for "Stamping"...

Actually I wish my painfully irritating next door neighbours were travellers -- it'd mean there was a chance of them eventually fucking off somewhere else.

Annoying as they are, I don't want them, their families and friends or the people they work with, to be "Stamped" on or criminalised or hounded in the press or in their homes. I don't want that for anyone, possibly excepting the Windsors.

i think this is terrible . all this bad press about gypsies and travellers in the newspapers is not helping us at all its just making a bad situation worse . Its alright for gorgi's ( house dwellers) saying they dont want us staying near there comunity because we terrorise pubs , let our children run riot through shops ,steal motors , make rubbish tips ,build fires and "apparently according to the sun"steal lawnmowers Its no wonder people think gypsies and travellers are disrespectfull , ignorant people because if they read newspapers they'll think thats all we do is make mess and disturbance wherever we go . but what really hits it is people with no where else to go buying they're own land in the hopes of turning it into a home only to apply for planning permission to have it refused and to get evicted . Its ok for bailiffs to come and evict travellers "they probably get a thrill from it" but they have no consideration for the people involved especialy children its traumatic sometimes violent (i know from personal experience.)My family are currently based in a council site and you think we'd be alright there as they have us "controled" as the sun put it when my aunt phoned in to complain over the bad press about travellers in the paper paticularly the "red diesel day" comment. However as i was saying i for the moment live in a council site and just the other day some young boys went past roaring "minks, pikys, your all dead we declare war your all dead. these words are very offensive to us and have caused many a fight between gypsies and gorgi's often with the gypsies getting the blame and being arrested.all this bad press is making vigilantes rise we dont need that but we'll survive the way we've done for 500years whether they like it or not.

Just after PM's Questions, this chap stood up, to introduce a Ten Minute Rule Bill titled:
"Equal Enforcement of the Law". A fine sentiment perhaps, that what law we do have, should be equally applied to all citizen.

However, he doesn't mean that! It's all about travellers, land to stay on, planning permissions, and all to reinforce the present; "lets be horrible to travellers" line, currently being peddled by the main political parties at the mo.......

After he finished, the vote was that he could continue in the subsequent stages, and that the Second Reading, has been scheduled for the 5th May. This being the same date as the election, it problably wont proceed. But this lot, just serves to show the continued attitudes to travellers, and the like.

>>>

Andrew Robathan MP ten minute rule bill
Equal Enforcement of the Law
6th april 2005


Mr speaker i beg to move that leave be given to bring in a bill to make provision for direction to police forces to enforce the law equally as it applies to settled communities and travellers; to amend the law on trespass; and for connected purposes.

One of the abiding principles that runs through the development of british democracy and society is the principle of equality before the law. The peasants revolt, magna carta, the civil war and habeas corpus, the abolition of the test acts and many other instances show this principle being developed and a very important principle it has been. But under this government, some people have discovered that the law will not be applied to them equally. The terrorists of sinn fein are one such group, but i wish to dwell on the treatment of travellers in the country at the moment.

As far as i am concerned, if people wish to live in caravans and travel about the country, that is entirely their own affair. I do not believe in prescribing how people lead their lives, just as long as they do not impinge unreasonably on the lives of others. There is a permanent campsite at aston firs in my constituency which i have visited in the past and will probably visit in this election campaign. I believe people there are entirely law abiding and while there may not be many votes there for me, but i think it important to make myself available to all my constituents.

I was brought up on the romantic notion of gypsies in attractive and colourful caravans pulled by horses, where romanies lived their unique lifestyle travelling around the country. This still happens and there was indeed, only last week, a traditional caravan in swinford, in my constituency.
On monday, by coincidence, my constituency office was deluged with calls from concerned people in lutterworth about an illegal gypsy encampment at the ladywood works. I went to see the site where half a dozen caravans had moved in on saturday night. A local garage had been closed because the 17 year old female cashier said that she had been intimidated by travellers. When i spoke to the owner, he told me that he had not reported it to the police because last time he caught a gypsy stealing something on cctv from his forecourt, the local police had advised him not to press charges, because he might be vulnerbale to criminal damage in retaliation. A disgrace.

Another three caravans have now arrived in lutterworth on the same illegal site, where they are trespassing. When the first ones arrived one of the travellers made an offer to the manager of the site, saying that they would leave straight away if paid £350 a van. When i visited the site, there were helpful police officers present. When i pointed out that one car had no road fund licence, the police officer explained that, although the owner of the car was committing an act of trespass, the police had no rights to enforce the law on private land. The phrase "catch 22" comes to mind. At this site, one of the particular complaints of the businesses of the site was that human excrement had been left on their doorsteps.

In northfield park in blaby a couple of years ago, i saw the astonishing rubbish that had been dumped by travellers there, including abandoned cars. Local residents were so intimidated they did not dare use the park, i met some very aggressive travellers, whilst the police stood off, not wishing to make trouble.

This is a pity because there are two issues relating to caravans and police which have been drawn to my attention by people involved in the legal caravanning world. The first is the width and length of caravans. Photographs published in the sun and elsewhere show that some caravans have twin or even triple axles, and they are too long to be legally towed by anything other than a full size commercial vehicle in the uk.

At the same time, the maximum width caravan that can be towed in the uk is just over seven foot five inches. There are photographs, for instance, in the sun on the 12th march, of a german-made lmc caravan just under eight foot wide. This is illegal. Yet the police very rarely stop these sorts of illegal vehicles. Perhaps the minister might like to answer the written question that i have already put down about prosecutions for over-wide or over-long caravans in this country.

The second and enormously important issue is theft. Some five thousand touring caravans are stolen and not recovered each year - about 20% of total uk sales of new caravans. All these new caravans have c.r.i.s. identification numbers. They also generally have transponders in them. If a new caravan is found without such means of identification, the question should be asked why not, and is it stolen. Unfortunately when one police officer in bedfordshire followed such a course of action he was moved to an office job because he upset travellers in bedfordshire. He also upset bedfordshire social services because they might have had to find accomodation for families whose caravans were confiscated. Surely it is the duty of the police to make simple enquiries to ascertain whether caravans are stolen.

It is also interesting how many brand-new vehicles tend to be pulling these vans - it might be pertinent for the inland revenue and customs and excise to be making enquiries about taxation and vat. Little council tax gets paid and i doubt much else gets paid either.

If any honourable member does not tax his car, i expect that he will be prosecuted with the assistance of the police. If he or she dumps rubbish on public land or by the side of the road, he or she is committing an offence. Human excrement in a public place should incur the wrath of environmental health departments. Furthermore, we all pay taxes and the overwhelming majority of our constituents pay council taxes for the services they expect to receive.

It is not unreasonable that we should all obey the laws of this country, be they planning laws, motoring laws or laws relating to environmental health. Illegal encampments of travellers have been much in the news recently and one does not have to be a reader of the sun or the daily mail - which i understand to have been particularly campaigning on this - to believe that it is wrong that people can flout the planning law in a flagrant fashion and then apply for retrospective planning permission.

Sadly, this government believes that "whilst some planners think that treating everyone the same helps to ensure equality this is not the case. Explicit recognition of difference is needed to ensure that the right action can be taken to deliver a planning service responsive to different needs within the communities it serves". Similarly, the government has said regarding unauthorised camping, "where the occupier of the land is a public body such as a local authority then every effort should be made to avert forced eviction. Where trespassers are for instance irish travellers, public bodies are required under the race relations act to have due regard to the need to promote good race relations".

The law does not apply to everyone. The law is not applied equally to all people in this country.

I think the overwhelming majority of people in this country, faced with casting their votes in a general election, will consider that everybody should be subject to the same laws. I propose that trespass be made a criminal offence, where it involves occupancy. This would give the police the certain power to move on trespassing travellers. The house will know that this is exactly what has happened in ireland under the housing (miscellaneous provisions) act 2002. That of course is why there has been an influx of irish travellers into this country, where we are seen as a soft touch.

I further propose that councils be allowed to refuse applications for retrospective planning permission by travellers or rogue developers who are cynically manipulating the planning system, often advised by disreputable lawyers. I would allow local councils to ensure that there was the rapid removal of caravans where planning permission did not exist and that large fines or confiscation of assets were imposed on travellers who were trying to profit from illegal developments.

Police must know that they not only have the power but the duty to stop travellers of whom they are suspicious and check their road fund licences, the road worthiness of their vehicles and the provenance of their vehicles. If i am stopped by a police officer, i must be displaying my road fund licence and i may be required to produce my insurance. There is no reason why this law too should not be applied to travellers - but at the moment, police officers seem wary of doing this because they fear it may cause trouble.

Finally, these travellers, who probably a minority of the travelling community, that are behaving illegally know their rights, but not their responsibilities. I propose a review or even the repeal of the so-called human rights act 2000. It sounds attractive, a human rights act, but actually it is used by smart slick lawyers to drive a coach and horses through the laws that the rest of us have to obey. In particular, the human rights act has allowed travellers to break planning laws, but takes no account of the rights of others whose lives are made a misery by illegal traveller encampments. When my right honourable friend the leader of the opposition suggested this, there was one person who commented that this had "the whiff of the gas chamber about it". Only a bitter twisted and perverted mind could imagine that to say that all people should obey the same laws is in some way wrong. We are all equal before the law and i propose that that equality should be enforced. I urge the house to support this bill.


>>>>>

So, if you want to tell him, what you thing about all this, he can be contacted at:

 conservative@blaby.force9.co.uk

 http://www.conservatives.com/tile.do?def=people.person.page&personID=5091

Have added this lot, to the Indymedia Newswire at:

 http://indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/04/308604.html

I have a solution, everybody should look at their garden, is it big enough for a couple of caravans, if so what are you waiting for, invite your Brothers to set up in your Garden. Everybody take part and we can remove travelers away from public gaze
Problem solved

Surely the "traveller problem" would go away if every human being were treated as an equal. It doesn't do any good to talk about "gypsy rights", what we should be focusing on are "human rights". People's lifestyle choices are their own business alone. However, the rights and responsibilities of people should all be equal, this is what equality means and we must not loose sight of it with talk of "racism" or "minority groups". Racism is only a sub-species of inequality after all. it may be convienent to target our efforts as anti-racist, but all that we are really doing is fighting in-equality

Travellers should have the same rights as everyone else to water, food, benefits etc because we believe in equality.

We should also teach the police that they must enforce the law equally. So traveller's who don't tax their vehicles, who shit on pavements, who dump rubbish and who don't comply with planning law should be dealt with by the full force of the law. When the police fail to enforce the law against fox hunters, fuel protesters and organised criminal gangs, we rightly complain.

I am not for stamping on travellers, but stamping on illegal camps, stamping on theft, stamping on fraud and stamping on fly tippers is good. If traveller's were properly policed, they wouldn't be causing any more or less problems than non-travellers, and the racists wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

But since when has stamping on criminals been racist?

If a culture of folk are considered second class human beings then that is racism.

If you were born into a race that has been continually shat on for centuries, judged as some of the lowest and dirtiest scum of the earth and used as a scapegoat for society's failings, and you grow up losing all hope that the world might have had some respect for you one day, then without any support from your own community or society, you too would be angry and start to destroy all that which oppresses you. Or don't you think you would? Is it not in your blood? to be a vengeful little bastard who steals and spits, becoming just what is expected of him.

It's well difficult because the aggression is so immense on both sides. I do think anyone who is causing harm to others needs help -the zero tolerance policies will not work because the problem is so deep rooted in a scarred past. That's why there are these problems.
Everyone has a right to make choices about how they live. Everyone has a right to be helped when they are in trouble (physically or psychologically) -in fact I believe it's a duty. Isn't it time we evolved a bit? Deal with the real issues.

I wouldn't trust the Sun for a objective discussion on travellers, but my experience is quite different.

There are 2 huge public playing fields available in my neighbourhood, and for over a month now, they have been occupied by caravans. The river that runs alongside the site is now full of beer cans, rubbish and disposable nappies. My sister had an attempted mugging made on her for the first time down the local shops from someone who, is fair to say, is most likely from the site (from their description), and my sister's boyfriend was attacked for not handing some beer over that he'd just bought by yet another. Just today there was someone who came into our garden by opening the gate, had a look around, then when he saw me, slowly walked back out against and shut it behind him. None of this has ever happened before.

*This* particular group of travellers is making me paranoid about anyone who hangs around outside our house, and I daren't go down to the local shops anymore. I haven't read about any of the supposed antics of other travellers elsewhere, but I've got experience of one group.

There aren't any police patrolling the shopping area, no police have attempted to evict the travellers from the site to my knowledge, and my MP hasn't replied to me on the issue.

I'm sure they need somewhere to stay for a while, but robbing, attacking, polluting, trespassing and occupying public land is why all travellers get a bad name. I'm not sure how representative this is, but if non-travellers did this, they'd be arrested with assault, theft and various other crimes. Because they're in a minority, and have no fixed address, they seem to be given a victim status. I'm sure they are in many ways, but so are those who live near this local site. I never had an opinion of them one way or the other until this group arrived.

I don't have an answer for their problems, but this is not the way to get people's sympathies. It's not fair on either of us.

 http://www.paveepoint.ie/pav_romerac_2.html Roma/Gypsies/Travellers in Europe: Proposals and Recommendations


 http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/britain-rights.htm Britain and Human Rights: Should Travellers be allowed to retain their way of life? By Colin Clark