M&S Protestors Heard Above Zionist Threats and Sirens
M&S picket Manchester | 26.02.2005 18:04 | Anti-racism | Repression | Social Struggles
Thirty protesters from across Britain converged at Marks and Spencers in Manchester to promote the boycott of one of the UK's biggest corporate backers of Israel and in solidarity with the struggle of the Palestinians for their freedom and independence.
A mass of Palestinian flags, banners and amplified speeches were the means for this peaceful protest. Once again protesters were confronted by physical assaults, abuse, harrasment and insults by Zionist counter demonstrators. Using air horns to drown out speeches, following and threatening individual protesters and insulting us collectively, the Zionist thugs demonstrated their comtempt for all views different to theirs.
Inspite of this continuing harrassment, officers from the Greater Manchester Police seemed incapable of separating protestors from the counter demo. Only the persistent complaints of harrassed protestors, the presence of legal observers and repeated appeals to passers-by prompted a lethargic response on the part of the police. Officers made it plain that they had orders not to intervene. It is clear that Zioniat provocation is being allowed in the hope of eliciting am angry respose, enabling the police to close down the picket. At what level is this collusion between the police and the rabid fringe of Zionism being coordinated?
The public were clearly not impressed when individual members of the picket were surrounded and shouted at while they stood quietly and passively, being called racists and threatened with “harrassment to the grave”, “you better watch out for your children” [referring to two very young children], “we're going to kill you” and “we know your address”.
The Manchester picket against Marks and Spencers has endured assaults and harrassments from Zionists for nine months. Support for the picket and the presenc eof legal observers is always needed. If you wish to confront racism, apartheid and zionism, and the police's support for them, contact 07816547066.
Victory to the Intifada!
Boycott Israel!
Boycott M&S!
Inspite of this continuing harrassment, officers from the Greater Manchester Police seemed incapable of separating protestors from the counter demo. Only the persistent complaints of harrassed protestors, the presence of legal observers and repeated appeals to passers-by prompted a lethargic response on the part of the police. Officers made it plain that they had orders not to intervene. It is clear that Zioniat provocation is being allowed in the hope of eliciting am angry respose, enabling the police to close down the picket. At what level is this collusion between the police and the rabid fringe of Zionism being coordinated?
The public were clearly not impressed when individual members of the picket were surrounded and shouted at while they stood quietly and passively, being called racists and threatened with “harrassment to the grave”, “you better watch out for your children” [referring to two very young children], “we're going to kill you” and “we know your address”.
The Manchester picket against Marks and Spencers has endured assaults and harrassments from Zionists for nine months. Support for the picket and the presenc eof legal observers is always needed. If you wish to confront racism, apartheid and zionism, and the police's support for them, contact 07816547066.
Victory to the Intifada!
Boycott Israel!
Boycott M&S!
M&S picket Manchester
Comments
Hide the following 52 comments
Yawn !
26.02.2005 18:54
Little boys playing issing up the wall contests
Bored with this now
Yawn !
26.02.2005 18:55
Little boys playing pissing up the wall contests
Bored with this now
Re: yawn
26.02.2005 20:15
If you're 'bored', then shut the fuck up and go and harrass someone else.
The fact that you're trying to argue with people suggests that you're remotely bored and that on the contrary you're up for a ruck (if a purely verbal one).
YOU may not care about the situation the Palestinians are in because you lack the conscience and the compassion (or even just the imagination) to empathise with people living under seige, suffering under an illegal occupation.
But even if you only care about yourself, why not take the time to consider how lucky you are that YOU'RE not in that situation.
In the immortal words of er... The Band Aid Single, "tonight thank god it's them and not you".
It's always easier isn't it, rather than taking a stand against injustice, to "yawn" at people who do.
If you don't think these tactics are working then by all means offer your constructive criticism.
And I'd very much like to hear what the fuck YOU'RE doing to try to bring peace (and JUSTICE) to the middle east. Sitting around slagging people off for trying to make the world a better place? Now you're making ME yawn.
Bob
"Bored with this now"
26.02.2005 20:31
ftp
fuckin right
26.02.2005 22:30
the pissing up the wall analogy was well wicked.
bigger fight to fight
The Zionists are proud to be wrong
27.02.2005 01:20
If they were really interested in engaging the public against the VTI picket, they would have their own stall and their own leaflets, placards, etc, instead of trying to destroy other people's right to be heard.
The Zionists don't care about what people think of their thuggery. Their only purpose is to push the VTI picket off the streets using violence and intimidation.
They are overgrown, ugly, fascist bully-boys. How much are M&S paying these meatheads to protect them?
I don't believe that the police are actively supporting the Zionists. I think that they would just rather that there was no protest to start with, so they can go back to slurping coffee at the local BP garage, the lazy gits.
Sharon's Car Ariel
The point
27.02.2005 10:23
A plague on both your houses
Time to adopt more tactical & creative strategies?!
27.02.2005 11:51
Granted those pathetic bully boy zionists are clearly losing the battle on the highstreet - their desparation is testament to the fact that they know soldarity towards Palestine is increasing exponentially and there's nothing they can do about it.
It's a shame for them that the corporate profiteers from Israel's bloody and illegal occupation are so visible on our highstreets. You've only got to mention the words Marks and Spencers or Caterkiller and people's awareness about the realities of the occupation are re-inforced. The zionists can't stop this process unless these brands and corporate profiteers disappear.
I suggest you focus on trying to displace the confrontation that the zionists continually try to provoke at these pickets. This is what they tend to do primarily as a strategy everywhere - whether it's in student unions, the public domain and even indymedia.
So it's time to get a lot more tactical and creative with our activism generally about Palestine on the highstreet. Perhaps dropping some of the leftist sect branding might help encourage people to join you too - it definitely put me off although I have to say it was a lot more low key then the Swpies.
Good luck and victory to the intifada on the highstreet!
brain dead campaigning methods don't work well
Actually.....
27.02.2005 12:31
And that isn't going to change.
ftp
Branding
27.02.2005 12:46
ftp
et cetera
27.02.2005 13:05
the beirut and tel aviv bombs serve the right wing of the israeli government well. it allows attention to be diverted to syria, making the syrians into the aggressors, so deflecting attention from the real issue which is the continuing land grab in the palestinian territories. ratcheting up the tension, undermining the cease fire, also serves the jihadis who are also nationalists and would prefer constant war to peace. the two camps are much alike.
it is up to the israelis however to break this deadlock. demands by the israeli government (and military) that the PA 'reign in the terrorists' while the occupation not only continues but expands is just an admission by israel that it is happy to see conflict continue to secure territorial goals. this is another performance of an oft repeated cycle.
- -
The right to protest.
27.02.2005 13:32
The right to protest is serious stuff, if it is taken from you or watered down or abused, you have lost everything.
My observation yesterday watching the picket and being on it was that I was systematically attacked and physically abused by right wing Zionists, without going into their motives in depth, I will mention that most of the people on the Palestinian picket were just holding banners and flags and saying nothing.
The behaviour of the Zionists was extreeme and in full view of the police, highly confrontational and i believe contreveening the basic human rights of the protesters and amounted to serious forms of haressment.
I personally recieved death threats and was punched.
A serious problem here for the police and the Zionist black shirts is that in the UK, (unlike Israel) civil libertys and basic human right laws exist, a number of the people on the picket yesterday come from different parts of the country and some work within human rights/civil liberty organisations.
Video footage taken from yesterday and on previous occasions will i am sure lead to prosecution of Manchester police for complicity in human/civil rights abuses.
Manchester police are not a law unto themselves, they might like to think they are, yet as they will find out over the coming months, if they persist in violating and supporting harassment to the picket in Manchester not only will more and more people travel to Manchester to show solidarity, but Manchester police will find themselves the subject of meetings about abuses of civil libertys, as they are about to find themselves being discussed in high profile meetings in London and Brighton.
And to the Zionists, your behaviour is very ugly behaviour.
I would advise you to change your tactics, everything about your behaviour suggests violent, racist behaviour, on just a human level you are laerly missing the plot, threats to kill, suggested violence towards children, comments about killing all Palestinians which were heard and videotaped yesterday are quite obviously the exact behaviour, used by facists in nazi germany and by right wing exteemists through out time.
You do a great injustice to the Jewish community, you speak as protectorates of the Jewish community, yet your behaviour is ugly and has no connection to any spritual or religious tradition.
Your behaviour symbalises all that the World religions seek to eradicate, racism, ignorance and hatred.
I do not care for your behaviour or religion, if you religion is about developing and displaying the behaviour I witnessed yesterday.
Please look at your behaviour and adjust it acordingly, if you are going to be voices for the Jewish community (as I heard most of you claiming to be yesterday)why not adapt the behaviour I have experienced whilst staying with Jewish friends in Israel, such as genorosity, compassion, wisdom and humanity, without these you are bereft of the basic tenets of being a human being, we have these qualitys which seperate us from the animal family.
Shalom, Salem.
Tom.
Branding
27.02.2005 15:11
While I do agree with the person who says we need some more imaginative actions, I know how hard it is to both consolidate and expand at the same time, so DO be open to and up for creative suggestions, but DON'T give up the regular events, on which people with limited time will always be able to find you.
But as for the 'branding' discussion, I guess it means that the Revolutionary Communist Group is not ashamed of itself or its newspaper Fight Racism! Fight Imperialism! That is the truth. And that will remain the truth whoever else joins the picket. The RCG never seeks to stop any other group (socialist, anarchist, Muslim or whatever) bringing banners and newspapers, so if the main 'brand' seems to be FRFI, that is because other groups have stayed away. This is bad, silly and sectarian and does none of us any favours.
VICTORY TO THE INTIFADA!!
Victoria Siempre
Zionism - the NEW acceptable word
27.02.2005 18:58
People object to our protest - must be Zionists
A group has shown up a flaw in our arguments - must be Zionists
Somebody supports a Jewish homeland - must be Zionists
This policy has been remarkably succesful because of course to raise objections to Jewishness or Jews would be difficult for them but branding any objection as Zionist is an easy get out. This ignores the reality that the majority of Jews (and non Jews who support Israel) are far from Zionist in their viewpoint.
I suppose if it makes people with a dislike of Jews feel easier to think they are objecting to the great myth of world Zionism then that's what they must do. I feel that's shows a weakness of character that leads to events like the Holocaust, Bosnia, Rwanada and Iraq.
Not Zionist Jew
Any demonstration welcome
27.02.2005 19:06
For those who agree with the fascists of Israel/US/GB/EU govts sorry to tell you our movement will only get bigger. Ur a rare breed about to be minimalised....Have Fun
.
erm, if someone isn't a zionist....
27.02.2005 21:11
Why would a non-zionist have a problem with an anti-occupation picket?
ftp
Upload and expose them!
27.02.2005 21:25
"...comments about killing all Palestinians which were heard and videotaped yesterday"
you know what to do people! :0)
open publishing does what it says on the tin
Jew
27.02.2005 22:46
Perhaps you'd be happier with a copy of Cabaret ?
Not a Jew
The jewish question
27.02.2005 23:36
Perhaps you'd be happier with a copy of Cabaret ?"
Hmmm, is that your answer to why would a non-zionist oppose an occupation picket?
To suggest that I'm a nazi, and that I've proposed genocide.
I rather think a search will show that I've consistently spoken out AGAINST genocide.
Let me make myself very clear - hating someone because of the circumstances of their birth is a moronic, stupid thing to do. Calling for genocide of a people is a moronic, stupid thing to do.
And that stands regardless of whether they are Palestinian, jewish, muslim, female, disabled or royalty.
ftp
Brighton and London came in Solidarity and get attacked for doing so!!!!!!
28.02.2005 00:13
You have openly insulted people where i come from, and to me that is insulting me!
Also your saying you wanting only people who live in Manchester to demostate in Manchester!
Support the Picket of M&S in Manchester! Support the right to demostate anywhere in Britian!
Support the Struggel against Capitalist and Imperialist oppression!
UP THE SEAGULLS!
Brightonian and Proud!
Zionism is Fascism
28.02.2005 03:32
After attaining a majority in Palestine and being enabled to govern upon broad democratic principles, we will have before us even a more important task: Shivat-Tzion (the return to Zion). By this we mean the creation of such conditions which would enable every Jew who is unwilling or unable to live in the diaspora to settle in the Jewish State and earn his livelihood there. These would probably reach into the millions, while a sufficient majority can be obtained by one million or a million and a half settlers. Afterward will come probably the most important task of all: to make Eretz Yisrael the leading state of the civilized world, a country the customs and laws of which are to be followed by the whole universe. "From Zion shall go forth Torah", signifies a "Torah"
not merely in the religious sense. Zionism is a tremendous, overwhelming important tack, the boundaries of which our generation cannot as yet envisage. The first step, that deed without which there can be no Zionism, or a Jewish state, or a real Jewish nation, is the creation of a Jewish majority in Eretz Yisrael on both sides of the Jordan...
The building of Betar is founded upon the principles of discipline. Our aim is to make Betar such a world organism which, at a sign from the center, will be able simultaneously to move tens of thousands of hands in the cities of all countries. Our adversaries say that it is "unworthy of free men", that it means being made into a machine. I propose that we should not be ashamed to reply, and proudly to boot: "Yes - a machine".
For it is the highest achievement of a mass of free men, if they are capable to act in unison, with the absolute precision of a machine. Only free, cultured people can do so."
From Betar UK's website
This twisted ideology does not represent or speak for the Jewish people. Organisations such as Betar do not believe in peace. They are racist because they attempt to separate the Jewish people from the common family of mankind. All of humanity shares a common beggining and a common destiny. Any segregation of the earth's people from each other whether it is called zionism, nationalism, racial purity or whatever is a crime.
Zionism is Fascism
Any reason?
28.02.2005 07:01
*
because..
02.03.2005 00:19
.
Lack Of Support For M&S Protests in Manchester
02.03.2005 03:30
The Manchester PSC go along with the Zionist lie that to challenge Zionism and to directy challenge the zionist state of Israel is Anti Semetic.
The Marks And Spencer picket in Manchester, as well as those that are across the country will not except any form of racism, inparticular, Anti Semitism and Islamphobia. Any sign of Anti Semtic behaviour will result in that person being asked to leave the picket.
The Marks And Spencer picket in Manchester will support any group that is under attack from Zionists and GMP.
Victory to the People of Palestine.
Brightonian and Proud
No more M and S
02.03.2005 10:58
don
Branding someone else's oppression for your own political ends?! :0(
02.03.2005 11:57
I dunno but it kinda makes my stomach turn that soley trotskyite political parties seem prepared to brand someone else's oppression for their own instrumental ends - be it recruiting people to their sad little sect or just putting out branded publicity.
Summat's gotta give people - if you goto a protest/picket without a competing market brand then surely most sentient people would feel a little excluded from the main branding of the picket?
I think you've sorta let the whole thing slip by making an analogy to branding and markets...
Oh and don't forget to copyright "Victory to the Intifada" either before some other trot group uses it as a front.
The 'Joy' of Sects
On branding...
02.03.2005 13:56
.
No Branding on M&S Pickets
02.03.2005 17:34
For example, the M&S Picket in Manchester uses "Victory to the Iraqi Resistance", or they have. This is used by the CPGB!!!
Victory to the People of Palestine
Brightonian and Proud
Liars
03.03.2005 09:12
Two young Asian lads on your picket said "you should all die" and then shouted "death to the Jews" before laughing with his friends.
The VTI groups from London and Brighton seemed to be astonished that Jews dare to oppose them.
Well things are different up North - you consider our behaviour ugly because you cannot believe that Jews here do not take it lying down; we fight back and will continue to do so. We will not give in because to give in to racist filth like you is not an option.
I will not go on about the lack of difference between anti-semitism and anti zionism, other than to say there is no difference. You pick on Israel far more than any nation on earth when in fact, Israel has a far better record than most nations on Earth. Needless to say you will not have boycotted Iranian goods (great human rights record), Chinese goods (lets not forget Tibet), French goods (no right to wear religious clothing in schools) - basically only Jewish goods (taking your idea from the Nazis).
So if you came up and thought our behaviour was vile - good! you got hit - great!
Because we have sworn to protect our community - we have their support and we know how to deal with vicious Jew hating, Nazi, racist scum like you.
See you all soon!
Zionist
RE USLESS COMMENTS MADE SO FAR
03.03.2005 10:56
THE ORGINAL FORM OF ZIONISM WAS THE BELIEF IN THE JEWISH STATE OF ISRAEL
NOT MANY KNOW BUT ZIONSIM HAS BEEN AROUND FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS , AS FAR BACK AS 100AC AS IT WAS THE ARABS WHO MASSACRED THE JEWS IN ORDER TO TAKE OVER THE LAND AND CALL IT PALESTINE...
WHY WOULD A NON-ZIONIST HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE M+S PICKET??????????
WHOEVER MADE THAT COMMENT REALLY DOESNT BELONG IN THIS WORLD...
IM NOT A ZIONIST IM MOST CERTANLEY NOT A RACIST...
THE PROBLEM THAT I HAVE WITH THE VTI COMMUNIST REVOULUTIONARYS IS THAT THERE PICKET IS FAR FROM PEACEFULL
THEY ABUSE ANYBODY WHO DOESNT AGREE WITH THEM OR MAKE CRUDE COMMENTS ABOUT THEIR WEIGHT
THEY ABUSE EVERY SINGLE JEW THAT WALKS PAST THEM
THEY DISPLAY ANTI JEWISH CARTOONS AND CAPTIONS
I COULD GO ON ALL DAY ABOUT MY PROBLEM BUT ID BORE U TO DEATH
MESSAGE FOR HERMES..I REPLIED TO YOUR POST ON THE PALESTINE DEMO!!! SECTION OF REPORTS
ADAM 20 WITH FULL OF BRAIN POWER
Ideology and racism
03.03.2005 11:45
Besides the fact that they are prepared to devalue anti-semitism to a point where the term becomes meaningless, a travesty for the victims of true anti-semitism, their offer is one you either accept or reject. I reject it, and therefore it has no hold over me.
Martin Luther King is a red herring, the claims about him are not proven, there are no documents that show that he called for blind acceptance of a racist ideology.
ftp
No logo
03.03.2005 13:39
I didn't. Someone else, sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, referred to 'leftist sect branding'. I don't think anyone acually in RCG/FRFI would think of calling it that!
And the more people who use the slogan Victory to the Intifada the better...until NIKE decides it will sell a T-shirt (Don't laugh, if they can sell Malcolm X and Che Guevara...)
Victoria Siempre
Some history
03.03.2005 14:50
NOT MANY KNOW BUT ZIONSIM HAS BEEN AROUND FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS , AS FAR BACK AS 100AC AS IT WAS THE ARABS WHO MASSACRED THE JEWS IN ORDER TO TAKE OVER THE LAND AND CALL IT PALESTINE... "
Adam 20, you should learn your history. It was the Romans who massacred the Jews of Israel, and sold them into slavery. Then for a few hundred years it was a Roman Christian province, called Palestine. Then the Arabs peacefully conquered the region from the Christians, with a famous treaty.
The Jews had a better time under the Arabs than the Christians, although certainly, neither was particularly good. When the Crusaders came to Jerusalem, they slaughtered both Muslims and Jews who were living together in the city.
It's interesting how your hatred of Arabs is willing to simply distort and make up history. It would fit into your plan much better if the Arabs HAD stolen the land from the Jews by force, all those thousands of years ago. But in fact, no such thing happened. The Temple was destroyed by the Romans. The Muslims built the Al Aqsa on an empty hill.
Then, almost 2000 years later, the British promised a land that wasn't theirs to promise to the zionist movement, who took the land, and ethnically cleansed the indigenous population.
Regarding the comment before. Zionism is not Judaism, any more than to be German was to be a Nazi. Zionism is a nationalistic ideology. Judaism is a religion and a culture. There are a great many Jews who were and are against the blind nationalism of Zionism. Einstein was one. Buber was another.
Why the focus on Israel? Because the U.S doesn't give billions of dollars in militiary aid to China or Iran. The US, UK and Israel are all part of US global strategy, a strategy that has encouraged war, famine, oppression and exploitation. A strategy that puts us all at risk from attacks like September 11th. The anger directed towards us in the West is not about China or Iran. It is about the oppressive regimes we finance and arm.
Notice how the main campaigns are about Israel-Palestine, and about Colombia Solidarity.
So keep shouting racist as much as you like. The Germans probably called any opposition to their nationalist plans as 'anti-aryan...driven by envy and hatred' or some such nonsense. But you should know that if it's ever against the interests of the political elite to support Israel, they will abandon you without looking back, and it is the Left that will stand up for your human rights.
Hermes
Zionism
03.03.2005 17:07
Just to correct slightly your definition of Zionism - it is not the same as the ancient Hebrew kingdom or rule in Palestine but of a modern political movement arising out of 19th century European nationalism.
Zionism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia -
Zionism is a political movement among Jews (although supported by some non-Jews) which maintains that the Jewish people constitute a nation and are entitled to a national homeland. Formally founded in 1897, Zionism embraced a variety of opinions in its early years on where that homeland might be established. From 1917 it focused on the establishment of a Jewish national homeland or state in Palestine, the location of the ancient Kingdom of Israel. Since 1948, Zionism has been a movement to support the development and defence of the State of Israel, and to encourage Jews to settle there.
John
Bit more history
03.03.2005 18:59
...
WE ALL HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS
04.03.2005 11:53
NO-ONE CAN EVER BE 100% SURE OF WHAT WENT ON BACK THEN THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO
IVE NEVER SAID ZIONISM IS JUDAISM..I WAS SIMPLY READING A M L K QUOTE
IM FAR MORE ENCLINED TO READ WHAT HE HAD TO SAY THAN ANYONE OTHER POLITICAL FIGURE IN THE LAST 100 YEARS
BUT ONE THINGS FOR SURE HERMES LIKE YOU HAVE JUST POINTED OUT...
IT WAS THE JEWS LAND IN THE FIRST PLACE..
SO THE IDEA THAT THE PALESTINIANS CAN CLAIM THAT LAND AS SOLEY THEIRS IS UTTER BO**OCKS......
WHETHER IT WAS THE ARABS AS I BELIEVE,OR THE ROMANS AS U BELIEVE...ONE THINGS FOR SURE
THE JEWS "WERE DRIVEN OUT" AND HAVE AS MUCH RIGHT TO CLAIM THAT LAND AS ANYONE
IVE NEVER BEEN ON THE SIDE OF ANYBODY IN THIS CONFLICT..
APART FROM THE INNOCENT CIVILIANS WHO GET KILLED ON ETHIER SIDE...
ISRAEL ,VTI AND THE MILITANT PALESTINIANS WILL NEVER GET ANYWHERE UNLESS THEY ALL REALISE THEY ARE BROTHERS IN ARMS,THEY SHOULD LEARN TO RESPECT AND LOVE ONE-ANOTHER..THEN MAYBE JUST MAYBE THIS WHOLE SORRY MESS WILL BE A THING OF THE PAST............
SUPPORT THE INNOCENT,SUPPORT PEACE...AND CONDEM RACISM+TERROR
TILL NEXT TIME
ADAM
THANK YOU JOHN
04.03.2005 11:57
I KNOW WHAT ZIONISM ALREADY IS THANK YOU VERY MUCH
YOU SEEM TO FORGET THOUGH THAT IT WAS THE JEWS WHO OCCUPIED THE LAND THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO AND HAVE AS MUCH RIGHT AS ANYONE TO CLAIM THAT LAND AS THEIRS
IF U CARE TO STOP IGNORING ME AT THE PICKET THEN MAYBE IL TALK SOME SENSE TO YOU
ADAM
Martin Luther King Letter a Hoax
04.03.2005 14:38
What, you don't trust it because it's a pro-Palestinian site? Well CAMERA, a pro-Zionist site, has also admitted it's a hoax. See
And what does it matter? Even if Martin Luther King did support Zionism, that just shows that he can't be right all of the time.
And Adam, history of the Roman Empire is not that fragmentary. We do know what happened hundreds of years ago. To say there is doubt over whether the Arabs or Romans expelled the Jews in 70 AD is ridiculous, of course it was the Romans, there's a contemporary book written about it by Josephus (who was Jewish, incidentally), it's mentioned in various annals of the Roman Empire and anyway, the Romans ruled the place at the time - the Arabs were, at this time, a bunch of fragmented nomadic tribes. Just accept that you're wrong, and ludicrously so.
To say that the land is Jewish because Jews lived there 2,000 years ago... Adam are you American? That land isn't yours, it belongs to American Indians, so get the hell out. Are you English? Then get out of England and allow the Welsh to reclaim the land they lived in 2,000 years ago. But don't worry, you can go to Denmark and make the same demands on them.
steve3742
...
04.03.2005 15:01
Except, wow, put like that it sounds kind of racist doesn't it? Well, maybe we can see why zionism is also racist.
Also, before the Jews came to Israel, the Caananites were there. Therefore, would you support a mass migration of people claiming descent from the Caananites to come and displace the Israelis?
Funnily enough, many of these peoples, Jewish, Arab, Philistine, Caananite, from ancient times...their blood is so mixed after 2000 years, and they find their legitimate heirs in the Palestinians, many of whom could claim Jewish ancestry if they went back far enough, as many Jews living in Palestine converted to Islam. And many people claiming 'Right of Return' to Israel don't have a Jewish bone in their body, such as large numbers of Russian immigrants, many of whom are even racist anti-semites!!!
So turn that brain-power up a notch, Adam.
Hermes
im nothing
07.03.2005 01:15
i never said once thatr the jews have a right to claim israel as there land
what i did say is they have as much right as anyone else considering they lived there for quite some time in the last 3000 years
hermes--u need to turn get some specsaver glasses and get some brain power chrged up to you
you never read all my posts on here so u have no right to judge me in any way
and steve since when has the welsh have had any right to claim england as their land
do tell me u r anti english u sad little muppet..go and read some history books and then come back to me
adam
oh england
07.03.2005 13:40
Is full of Shit,
Oh england is full of shit"
Is what Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham fans sing at English football grounds. Don't patronise them buy questioning their right to live here. As if they'd want to.
rapattaque
Celtic England
08.03.2005 12:28
Zionists (including yourself) say that Jews have a right to claim Israel as there used to be a Jewish Kingdom there, either (briefly) independent or (for much longer) as a province of the Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek and finally Roman Empires. This ended in AD 70 when, after the Jewish revolt, the Romans closed down any pretence of autonomy the province had and ruled it as a conquered nation, expelling some of the population in the process. (And it was the Romans, not the Arabs, the remarks about how you need more brainpower come from your ridiculous statement that the Arabs expelled Jews from there 2,000 years ago - and your refusal to admit that you were wrong, despite EVERY SINGLE HISTORIAN OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE OR THE JEWISH PEOPLE disagreeing with you and nobody, to my knowledge, taking your view.)
But the point is this: If Jews can claim a place they lived in 2,000 years ago as theirs then why only just them? 2,000 years ago, England was inhabited by the Celts who, in the years 400-800 AD, were violently driven from their land by the Anglo-Saxons. The descendents of the Celts are now the Welsh (and some Scots, Irish and Bretond) and the descendents of the Anglo-Saxons are the English. So, using Zionist "logic" the Welsh (and Scots, Irish and Bretons) have every right to come to England, evict the English from their homes and take them over. The Welsh Guards have every right to patrol ancient cities of Celtic significance, such as Oxford, London, Glastonbury, St Albans, etc., shooting those English terrorists who disagree with this. And I could go on. As for the English - well, there are other Germanic states (Germany, Austria, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Holland, arguably France), they can go and move their. Why shouldn't the Welsh have one country of their own when the Germanics have 6 already? The English, using Zionist "logic" have no right to England, even the name should be changed (Lloegyr is the Welsh name for England. It means "the Lost Lands".) They should, perhaps, return to Denmark, where their ancestors came from 1,500 years ago.
I'm English myself, incidentally. I view all of this as being ridiculous. But then the Zionist project is based on this "logic". A Jewish kingdom, independent for less than 2 centuries and existing for only c.750 years in total, last seen 2,000 years ago, does not give present day Jews any right to the land of Palestine, any more than the Welsh have any right to the land of England, even though their ancestors lived there 2,000 years ago. note that the Welsh would at least be expelling the descendents of the people who evicted them 1,500 years ago - in Palestine even that is not the case.
You can do this for just about everyone. There's not an example I can think of where the same people are living there as were 2,000 years ago. hence by Zionist "logic", nobody has a right to be where they are and there's always someone with a greater claim to the country you're living in than yourselves. The Americans, obviously, would have to leave America to make way for native Americans under Zionist "logic", and most of North and South America could be dealt with similarily.
Do you agree with any of this? If not, do you agree with Zionist "logic"? Why the exception?
steve3742
Here we go again
10.03.2005 11:30
MLK letter may be fake - the comments at Harvard were not.
John, Hermes, the rest of you ...
Your obsessive hatred for the Jews living in Israel is akin to that of Tom Paulin - ie a barely concealed hatred for the Jews.
Why do you all insist on insulting Adam at every opportunity _ eg turn up the brain power! - just for not agreeing with you?
You remain a bunch of sick twisted jew haters who have Nazi like skills in altereing the truth
J&P
err hermes?????
11.03.2005 12:30
whenever i mention zionism i mearly explain the orignal form of zionsim
i dont agree with it and i dont disagree with it ethier
im not a jew
im not a zionist
im a bloody athiest you complete and utter moron!!!!!!!
adam
MLK Letter
11.03.2005 19:29
As for the rest... The comment about Adam's brainpower, well it wasn't because he was wrong - we're all wrong ocasionally. Nor because he disagreed with me - that's the point of these boards, yes? But that, after having his mistake pointed out (relatively politely) he didn't do the 5-10 minutes research on the Internet or a library that would have shown him to be wrong - not just according to us but according to every single Ancient historian or historian of the Jewish people. This would have taken c. 5-10 minutes, as I said. He didn't bother, but instead carried on repeating his rubbish. There's ignorance and there's wilfull ignorance. the first one's OK, the second is not.
Understand the difference between what he claimed and what you did. You claimed that the Jews weren't responsible for the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, but that it was the Arabs. That's incorrect, but at least arguable (if you close your mind.) But to claim that the Arabs, not the Romans, expelled the Jews in AD 70 - that's not even arguable. See the difference?
steve3742
MLK Speech
12.03.2005 02:06
anon.....
Adam is nothing and not a Zionist...
12.03.2005 20:42
Just wondered.
Victoria Siempre
....
12.03.2005 22:51
Just out of interest in your last post, you said "i dont agree with it and i dont disagree with it ethier" regarding zionism
How come in the past you have said you see nothing wrong with Zionism.
"i always knew what the origianl zionist belief was and that was the jewish state of israel for which there is no wrong in believing that."
ADAM
28.01.2005 15:45
On the subject of people insulting you. To the best of my knowledge, weren't you the first person to insult someone! Feel free to correct me!
"RE JOHNS USELESS COMMENTS
26.01.2005 12:55"
To say that someone comments are useless, is to insult them!
Personally, i feel people here do under estimate you, despite the fact i don't agree with some of your views! So some friendly adivice! Take some time on what you write, unless you have to you use a library etc. Then write down what you say! I do the same, even if it takes me an hour or so to right out!
And guys and gals, can we cut the insults out, it's like being back at school!
Peace!
anon....
Kofi Annan - Commencement Speech at Harvard University
15.03.2005 01:26
"...We must not allow anti-Semitism to disguise itself as a reaction to Israeli government policies — any more than we should allow all questioning of those policies to be silenced with accusations of anti-Semitism. ..."
Every time anyone questions or disagrees with what Israel is doing, Zionists will always use the Anti-Semitism line!
It's amazing, Zionists say the Israel should be critised or question, but when people do, they are labeled instantly by them as "anti semites" or "racists". So it is quite clear to see that Zionist are complete hypocrites!
So, to the Zionist that read this, I ask you! Is Kofi Annan a racist???
Anon...
ERR ANNON
21.03.2005 09:56
THAT DOESNT MEAN I AGREE WITH IT OR DISSAGREE WITH IT ..IT SIMPLY MEANS THAT IM NEUTRAL
I DONT AGREE WITH MOST THINGS RELIGOUS AS I TEND TO CALL MYSELF AN ATHIEST
BUT IF SOMEONE HAS A BELIEF IN SOMETHING WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT.
adam
nearly a week, and a reply!
21.03.2005 17:53
I was after clarification of what you ment.
To disagree with most things religious doen't mean that your an athiest. You can disagree with most things religious and believe in God. To be an athiest, then you don't believe in god. I guess you mean the latter!
When you talk about beliefs, "BUT IF SOMEONE HAS A BELIEF IN SOMETHING WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT.", I really hope that you talking about Religious and Spritual Beliefs!!!
You need to remember that Zionism is a POLITICAL, not RELIGIOUS!
anon...
steve3742 stop your fascist propaganda
10.02.2006 01:40
<<..any more than the Welsh have any right to the land of England,<<
how you can compare? Welsh had and still have own land
but the Jews hadnt before 1948.
Huanita