Palestine Demo!!! - UK Indymedia

Will be there

22.02.2005 14:31

This is an issue which has troubled people for far too long now, lets once and for all show the world that the palestinian people have our support. Lets make this protest one to remember by all being there this saturday.

Show them what weve got

Protesting Palastine; a Nation that has Never Existed

22.02.2005 21:28

if you want to create an excuse to kill Jews do a better job.

showing logic

let's show our support

22.02.2005 22:16

Attempting to criminalise the Palestinian flag is another attack on the identity of a group of people already under siege. You may think the flying of national flags is nationalist, and not agree with nationalism, but in the contexst of Palestine's struggle for national liberation it's little different to people organising around common experiences of racist oppression as 'black' - it's a stage in a process, sometimes a necessary one, and something that every progressive and anti-racist should support.

'showing logic': *yawn* It's Zionism that takes away Jewish people's shared humanity with others by labelling them as a 'race', it's Zionism that takes the same position as anti-semitism in saying those it considers different 'races' should live apart, and tells Jewish people where they should live, it's Zionism that attempts to deligitmise anybody who considers themselves Jewish but not Zionist, it's Zionism which is the biggest threat to Jewish people's lives in the world today.

Anti-Zionist

No, it's YOU

23.02.2005 01:00

"It's Zionism that takes away Jewish people's shared humanity with others by labelling them as a 'race', it's Zionism that takes the same position as anti-semitism in saying those it considers different 'races' should live apart, and tells Jewish people where they should live, it's Zionism that attempts to deligitmise anybody who considers themselves Jewish but not Zionist, it's Zionism which is the biggest threat to Jewish people's lives in the world today"

A RACE? Since when do Jews consider themsleves a "race"? It is YOU who thinks that way. They are a tribal people, a multiracial tribe by the way, and something even rarer (but not unique) a multiethnic tribe.

Tribal peoples do do not consider those of other tribes non-human (not usually) so there is no component of not sharing being human. Some tribal peoples expect others to also be organized into tribes, but after long residence among non-tribal peoples, the Jews do not.

Nay I ask you something, my "friend". Are you at least minimally consistent here or just an antisemite? There ARE people who object to "tribalism" across the board (gets in the way of humans identifying just in terms of economic class). I can at least respect that even if I don't agree. But how about you? You are against the Roma staying in their tribes, should just be people. Same with the Hopi or the Dene or Ojibwy or whatever. And none of these latter should make any attempt to regain some of their traditional territory or even to hold on to what little of it they may have left. Gets in the way of their "shared humanity", right?

Mike
mail e-mail: stepbystepfarm mtdata.com

I said Zionists not "Jews", but thankyou for illustrating my point...

23.02.2005 02:48

Mike:

Firstly, I don't think I mentioned anything about how 'Jews' in general define themselves or others, what I was actually talking about was Zionism/Zionists (and apart from not all Jews being Zionist, I have met many people who are Zionist but are not Jewish, and would not consider themselves Jewish). The Zionist tendency to ascribe a Zionist ideology to anyone and everyone who considers themselves Jewish, (and by inference to suggest that any anti-zionist Jew is thereby not a 'real' Jew, or even worse, the lovely Zionist term a 'self-hating Jew'), was one of the points I was making.

As for "tribalism", I'll admit that it's not something I'm very familar with, so I'll try not to make any snap-responses on it. However, the way you present it, it seems rather different to Zionism, as a European imperialist ideology established in the late nineteenth century and claiming to speak for Jewish people everywhere, whether they like it or not.

I find your description of tribalism very interesting though, it seems to rely quite heavily on the idea of distinct "peoples" - is this really any different to the idea of distinct "races"? Your use of the term "multiracial" certainly implies that you do subscribe to a racialist view of the world. In reference to one of your points, it's not necessary for racialising ideologies to see certain people as "non-human" in order for them to be dehumanising - simply by arbitrarily grouping people and assigning them assumed characteristics based on this grouping, racialism disregards individuals, and is thus dehumanising, not only to those racialised as the 'other' but to those doing the racialising, or materially privileged by it. So no, I don't think people "should just be people" if by this you imply some kind of blank sameness, and neither do I think people should identify "just in terms of economic class". They need to be regarded and paid attention to as individual, complex, unique human beings. Therefore I do what I can against Zionism, just as I do against anti-semitism, anti-black oppression and other forms of racism, and I do that together with people of many different relgions, parts of the world and skin colours.

Anti-Zionist

Obnoxious the lot of you

23.02.2005 11:14

I was tempted to go to this M&S picket on Saturday, solely because of the flag stealing police. Then I was sensible enough to go to the attached website and was met with pictures of young Palestinians and Iraqis with guns. You use these images in a glamorous way, to represent 'the struggle'. Guns do not achieve peace, they prolong conflict, even the simplest mind in the world can take this on board. Of course the Palestinians will stand up to the terror of the Israeli army, but 'bigging up' these pictures, especially from the safety of your computer in a cosy little room in the UK is the work of a cock. Grow up.

Rapattaque

Leap of analysis?

23.02.2005 12:40

Rapattaque:

Isn't that a bit of a leap of analysis, to jump from a website showing people holding guns to saying it is glamourising violence? Yes, the people who made that website support struggles for national liberation, and yes, sometimes, as in Palestine, those struggles are forced to use armed means if they are not going to be crushed. VTI doesn't duck the reality of the armed struggle in Palestine, but that is very far from glamourising violence. Please, come down on Saturday at least to see and talk to people, and get a fuller view of the people and the politics, rather than just dismissing the whole thing as "the work of a cock" based on your impressions of a fairly minimal website.

PS If you actually came to the protest you might also witness the kind of violent threats made regularly by some of the Zionists, and VTI members' armchairs might seem a little less 'cosy' to you.

AZ

analytical leap

23.02.2005 23:44

i'd agree - that RCP web site does seem to imply guns is the way to sort out the situation. i mean it's a main photo and there's no statement such as "while we prefer to see the solution resolved peacefully,....". I'm no expect in PR but I've learned from previous campaigning that one has to be think long & hard about how one's publicity comes across to the general public. it's them we want on side, not those who already agree!

Peace

peacenik

Perhaps I will

24.02.2005 09:28

Perhaps it is a leap of analysis, but not a very big one. People who come on websites like indymedia are probably more aware than most about the power of words and images, their potential to cause trouble and the sensitivity with which they should be used. The images on the website alienated a potential sympathiser. I am not and will never consider myself a communist, but the causes that are being fought for i do care about. I will try and come down on saturday and see for myself.

With regards to the front line, i'm usually at the football on a saturday, so I'm in a good position to assess the 'armchairness' of it all!

Victory for peace.

rapattaque

You support abuse

24.02.2005 12:12

You do glamorise violence

You have never criticised an attack on israeli children

You have never condemned a kassam attack on kindergartens

You do not condemn suicide bombings

Your demo is a disgrace - if you wanted peace in the region - you would condemn all violence; rather than ignoring attacks on Israelis.

But we are on the road to peace now; clearly that is not enough fot you.

BY THE WAY _ THE IMAGES OF CHILDREN DRESSED AS TERRORISTS THAT YOU GLORIFY, AND THE IMAGE OF A BABY DRESSED AS A SUICIDE BOMBER ARE NO 'JOKE' (AS YOU DESCRIBE THEM) - THEY ARE CHILD ABUSE!

Yehuda

Condemning violence

24.02.2005 15:19

How is it that so many zionists are obsessed with this notion of condemning violence on both sides, and yet they do so little to stop their own system from perpetrating the most violence.

The figures are clear to see. Zionists claim that they only use proportional violence to defend themsleves and yet they have managed to kill over 3 times as many as the "terrorists" that they say are so dedicated to killing "innocent civilians" ......

So far this year 82 Palestinian children have died as a result of the conflict, and 0 Israeli children.

Throughout the Intifada, the totals stand at 679 Palestinian children and 118 Israeli children.

http://rememberthesechildren.org/remember2000.html

A recent report written by a group of Israeli intelligence personnell for the Jerusalem Institute for Israel Studies, "charges that the Israel Defense Forces - under the leadership of current Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz, when he was chief of staff, and afterward, under Moshe Ya'alon - fanned the violent conflict that broke out in September 2000: "The levers of pressure that were applied to the Palestinian population and to the security apparatus, most of whose members did not take part at the beginning of the conflict, gave rise to negative results. A sense of anger and vengeance led to the tightening of the cooperation among the terror groups and between them and elements of the Palestinian security services that joined the conflict as a result of the IDF's damages to them. As a result of this the phenomenon of suicide attacks swelled to unprecedented dimensions, spilling over into the nonreligious organizations."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/542619.html

It is exactly that approach that we stand against - as we do against the continued land grabs, settlement building programmes and building of the Apartheid Wall that continues RIGHT NOW.

Do you oppose ALL actions that escalate the violence?

"But we are on the road to peace now; clearly that is not enough fot you."

No, we're still at the stage of the zionist state attempting to enforce what is good for the zionist state on the people whose land continues to be stolen.

It is a just settlement and the restoration of dignity to the entire Palestinian peoples that will bring peace ......

The state of Israel still thinks it can win through brute force and bullying.

Which, the Haaretz article clearly shows us DOES NOT WORK.

ftp

Let Peace have a chance

25.02.2005 10:48

Your constant misrepresentation of the true situation would be quite hilarious,
if it was not for the fact that it does nothing to help the situation in the Middle East.
You will never accept that since 1948 Israel was yearning for peace and as Abba Eban a
one time Foreign Minister of Israel said of President Arafat "He never misses the opportunity to miss an opportunity". I wish that you would show as much enthusiasm for
the genocide in Darfor as you do for your efforts in not saluting the efforts that both sides at the moment are involved in to see a just peace between Israel and the Palestinians. I unfortunately will miss you showing once more your bias this Saturday
as I am busy speaking against the danger in our communities of the BNP.

H.Guterman (not to be published) use Henry

FTP shut up

25.02.2005 11:04

1. You do not need to be a child to be an innocent civilian - many inncocent israelis have died; why did you put the words innocent civilians in inverted commas; perhaps you believe that jews (whoops, sorry, Israelis) cannot be inncocent.

2. if someone plants a bomb in a cafe or blows themselves up on a bus they are committing an act designed to cause death and to terrify; thus they are terrorists. Why do you insist in putting terrosrist in inverted commas; perhaps you believe that firing rockets at schools or blowing up a bar is righteous act - if so your views are perverse.

FTP the duplicity of everything you say is demonstrative of your absolute hatred for Israelis; whilst the state is multicultural is is mainly Jewish and it is so bloody obvious why you comments are riddled with double standards and above all why you are so bloody obsessed with us.
Of all comments which have appeared on this site, yours are frequently the most offensive and have always shown an absolute lack of empathy with victims on the Israeli side.
You glorify terror and attrocities, are highly insensitive to acts of racism in the UK (as per your comments on the 'race attacks on the rise' thread and you barely conceal your hatred for the jewish people.

But today we stand up to shits like you!

see you soon

J&P

ooops mr.h

25.02.2005 11:53

Well done H ......

Israel's yearning for peace has been illustrated by brutal military occupation and ethnic cleansing. Even now as the media pretends there is a chance of peace 6000 new settlement units are due to be constructed in the West Bank, killings and arrests continue.

Your interpretation of the "generous offer" is totally discredited - it was no such thing.

Finally, Bush had this to say in his recent speech:

"The world must not rest until there is a just and lasting resolution to this conflict"
thpough he probably just said to garner support for coming carnage in Iran and Syria.

Well done for standing up to the BNP though.

ftp

Well said

25.02.2005 12:17

Nice one Henry - well said,

But these people do not give a damn about the terrible conflicts which rage across the world; they are too busy attacking Israel because they cannot stand jews unless we are weak and they can feel sorry for us.

Jewish and Proud

WHY CANT U ALL JUST GROW UP!!!!!!

25.02.2005 12:25

why we cant we just all get on side by side in peace and harmony?????/

ADAM

WHY DONT YOU .............????

25.02.2005 12:46

WHY DONT YOU EVER CONDEM SUICIDE ATTACKS ON ISRAEL ,BUT YET ARE QUICK TO CONDEM AN ISRAELI ATTACKS ON HAMAS MILITANTS.

WHY DONT YOU EVER SHOW PICTURES OF INNOCENT ISRAELI KIDS COVERED IN BLOOD AFTER THEY HAVE JUST BEEN ATTACKED BY SNIPER OR BOMBERS...NEARLY 1000 ''INNOCENT'' ISRAELIS HAVE DIED SINCE U LOT STARTED THE INTIIFADA...U NEVER SEEM TO MENTION THEM... THEY ARE JUST AS INNOCENT AS THE INNOCENT PALESTINIANS.

THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS THAT YOUR VTI GROUP WANTS ISRAEL DESTROYED

YOU CLAIM NOT TO BE ANTI JEWISH YET YOU DISPLAY CARTOONS AND PLACARDS THAT ARE JUST THAT.

IM ALL FOR PEACE AND THE RIGHT FOR THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE TO HAVE THEIR OWN STATE

BUT WHILE WE HAVE THE ANIT M+S GROUP,HAMAS,ISLAMIC JIHAD ETC AROUND

THE INNOCENT PEOPLE IN ALL THIS WILL CONTINUE TO SUFFER.

ADAM

Bravo Adam

25.02.2005 15:38

As usual Adam you are the voice of reason.

There needs to be an end to the conflict. Violence is wrong, but clearly Israel needs to protect its civilians from terrorist attrocities.

The VTI glorify violence and it is people like them who try to lend legitimacy to terror.

But terrorism is a disease; it spreads like cancer and if allowed to spread unchecked, it will poison the whole world when people believe that the only way to secure their aims is through violence against civilians.

The VTI are pro-violence, they believe in turning children from the youngest age into suicide bombers (thus they are child abusers), they wish to see wholesale slaughter of a nation, they do not want a negotiated peace only absolute victory via armed terrorist means.

In every sense this group is as bad as the BNP; they use twisted rhetoric to lend legitimacy to their abhorent aims and hide behind the right of free speech when it is their aim to silence a people forever.

Peter Pan

On violence as the only means to Zionist ends..

25.02.2005 17:27

Well, here's what two influenctial Zionist leaders had to say on whether violence is the only mean of achieving Zionism's ends:

"Everybody sees a difficulty in the questions of relations between Arabs and Jews. But not everybody sees that there is no solution. No solution! There is a gulf and nothing can fill this gulf. It is possible to resolve the conflict between Jewish and Arab interests [only] by sophistry. I do not know what Arab will agree that Palestine should belong to the Jews. ... We, as a nation, want this country to be ours; the Arabs, as a nation, want this country to be theirs"
(David Ben-Gurion, 1918)

"There can be no talk of discussion of a voluntary reconciliation between us and the Arabs, not now and not in the forseeable future. ... Everyone, with the exception of those who were blind from birth, already understood long ago the complete impossibility of arriving at a voluntary agreement with the Arabs of Palestine for the transformation of Palestine from an Arab country to a country with a Jewish majority"
(Vladimir Jabotinsky, 'The Iron Wall (We and the Arabs)', 1923)

Clearly these early Zionist leaders saw the bloody consequences of Zionism's exclsuive racial nationalism a little more clearly than some posting comments here.

You seem to forget that the Palestinian people have attempted peaceful means of resistance in the past, such as much of the first intifada, and were met by brutal and violent repression by the Israeli state.

AZ

25.02.2005 17:32

And as for the suggestions that people involved in VTI are unconcerned about anything else happening in the world, that is utterly naive, as anyone would see from a brief look at the paper or website of groups involved such as FRFI. But of course you probably already know this, (and some of you certainly do, as I calmly explained it to you on the picket one of the first times you turned up last summer) and you're just baiting once again, trying to stoke up conflict. Who are the ones with the violent approach???

Only one issue?

...

25.02.2005 23:27

Tell me Adam, do you agree with the Israeli attacks that kill so many innocent Palestinians? I see you condemning suicide bombings, but not the attacks on the Palestinians. And yet so many more Palestinians have been killed.

I don't agree with the suicide attacks on Israel.

However, I am willing to empaphise with both the Israeli soldier and the suicide bomber who carry out these attacks. Both are human beings that have been driven so far by circumstance and prejudice that they would kill the other indiscriminately. ( And don't use the argument 'Israeli soldiers don't kill indiscriminately'. Far more Palestinians children and old people have been killed by Israeli terror than Palestinian terror ).

Perhaps circumstance and prejudice would drive you, too, to pick up a gun and fight for Israel, and perhaps in a campaign, Palestinians who should not have been victims would become your victims. Do you feel a sympathy for those who fight for Israel? WHy then, can you not understand why people would use violence to fight for Palestine.

Why is one violence legitimate, the other not?

Hermes

re hermes(another one who never reads my posts)

03.03.2005 10:42

IF U EVER BOTHER TO READ MY POSTS ON HERE U WOULD KNOW THAT IM AGAINST ALL FORMS OF VIOLENCE..

I NEVER CONDONED WHAT ISRAEL DID TO THOMAS HURNDALL..IF THATS HIS NAME THE HUMAN SHIELD THAT WAS SHOT IN THE HEAD

BUT U MUST REMEMBER ALSO ISRAEL HAS A RIGTH TO DEFENDS ITSELF FROM TERROR ATTACKS!!!!

IF MAHMOOD ABBAS AND HIS AUTHORITY CHOOSE TO ENGAGE WITH MILITANTS FROM HAMAS INSTEAD OF STOPPING WHAT THEY DO THEN ISRAEL HAS EVERY RIGHT TO DEFEND ITS OWN PEOPLE

INEVITABLY INNOCENT PEOPLE DO GET CAUGHT UP IN THIS AND THAT IS SAD..

adam