Palestine news - UK Indymedia

and er...what's the news?

29.08.2004 00:03

Shoot me down in flames for a troll here, but I'd say that you going to Palestine isn't actually, in itself, news - profound and moving experience though it may be. Have you seen or done anything worth talking about?

jim

Lack of tourism

29.08.2004 00:27

And regarding reasons why "the place" (I can only presume you mean Palestine as a whole) is "dying" I suggest that there are one or two other factors you could mention before bewailing the lapse in tourist trade. Perhaps a longer trip might reveal a few such nuggets...

jim

I mean, Jesus,...

29.08.2004 00:34

...like, for Christ's own sweet fucking sake, what healthy, vibrant, unmolested indiginous culture ever died through "Lack of tourism"? Good job you 3 are there to keep the wolf from the door, eh? Haaaaagggghhhh!!!!What a hoot!

Jim

The diary

29.08.2004 08:50

I urge you to read their on-line diary. It's the funniest piece of pretentious nonsence you're ever likely to see. It's totaly self obsessed and screams "Middle Class student discovers poor people" like nothing else.

Seriously people, grow up.

Laughing Larry

hmm

29.08.2004 13:09

A diary is always, by definition, a little self-obsessed - a place where you record not only events but also your thoughts and feelings about them. One person's 'self obsessed' is another person's 'interesting personal perspective' ;)

BTW labelling it 'middle class student...' you seem to have failed to notice it's written by three different people! :P

Oh, and in answer to jim, the details of what they've been up to are on the blog, if you're interested.

.

"Seriously people, grow up"

29.08.2004 13:15

Well, Larry, I'd rather middle-class people (if indeed they are) get out to palestine and offer their support than spend their days consuming pointless sweatshopped commodities and shopping around for a bigger mortgage. What are you doing to improve the world Larry? Laughing?

Tom

Relevance?

29.08.2004 15:09

Well, Mr "." (author of hmmm) I'm literate enough to be able to follow the initial set of directions to the diary and read it, believe it or not. Hence my question, Where's the news? Are you in fact one of the tourists involved? because you seem to have impeccably adopted their facility for holding forth whilst adding fuck all of any ongoing use or relevance. (Hey, no shit, a diary's a personal document, etc...)

Tom, why is it that mortgage hunting and accumulating sweatshop goods so immediately suggest themselves to your mind (so strongly for you to publicly present them thus)as the obvious, nay, only alternative to what these 3 are doing? sounds like the usual spurious "strawman" tactic of putting a daft argument into the mouth of the person you want to slap down, because what they're actually saying is a bit trickier to refute.

Yes it's good that people go to Palestine, but it's also crucial, IMHO, to recognise that it's a thing that cuts both ways. Palestine is full of self-serving egotistical assholes at the moment, and it's spawning a culture that smacks of something like grave-robbery. It's no big thrill for the ordinary people who live there to be IN PALESTINE (woo-oo-oo) you know. They just get on with it, day to day, with astounding good grace and dignity. I'd argue that it's about time to start holding back on the applause every time some privileged visitor starts shouting from the rooftops in Nablus with nothing more important to say then "I'm here!" (witness the title of one of the diary blogs so lauded by Mr-fucking-no-name-dot-".") So when you come back and do your bullshit self publicity speaking tour (I'm oh-so courageous and good) try not to immediately forget the poor sods that you stole your tin-pot and tarnished glory from.

jim

"the usual spurious "strawman" tactic"

29.08.2004 19:17

fair point, too an extent. But your stereotyping "Middle Class student discovers poor people" line isn't much distinguished in terms of intelectual complexity ;-), though I do see your point. Having being a student fairly recently and hailing from a 'middle class' background myself, I still think its a positive thing that people are at least interested in things other than furthering their own self/class interests. You are right however, Palestine, or anywhere else for that matter doesn't need to be flooded with war tourists who return to the UK purged of guilt and ready to become stockbrokers. As to the "bullshit self publicity speaking tour", I actually got heavilly involved in palestine after talking to an activist who had just returned and was doing a 'speaking tour' type thing - I see where you're coming from, but for the majority of people the alternatives are more likely the peer acceptable activities like constant consumption aforementioned. Something is better than nothing, basically, is my point. Your equally valid point is that theres something better still. And it is a little thin on news content.

Tom

All's "fair" in luvvie's war

29.08.2004 22:08

Funny that you use a quote from me as your title, Tom, only to say it's a "fair point"! (You don't specify to what "extent" though...) And actually it wasn't me that was stereotyping students; I was one myself too a couple of years ago, and I've never spoken against students in general. And I got into Palestine by word of mouth as well, the same way you did, more or less - I've nothing against speaking tours per se, just bullshit ones. (and there are lots; probably the majority.)By "cuts both ways" I intend to convey a real concern that amidst all the backslapping we need to recognise that there is a genuinely deleterious and destructive effect generated by people traipsing clumsily all over the area with little in mind besides the name they're gonna make for themselves back home. They make a bad smell locally,in Palestine, and embarrass resistance movements generally elsewhere, and I've been in real situations with some loose cannon fuckwits who're actually creating pointless danger for others. These points are more general and not necessarily specifically aimed at the authors of the initial article here. But it comes in answer to your point: something can sometimes be a damn site WORSE than nothing, in my experience. (And if I was to trot my experience out for you now, like a list of credentials, you could rightly accuse me of the same pointless self-promotion that I'm levelling at others. So I won't...)Lastly, I don't agree that the alternatives are as polarised as you still maintain. Lots of different people are doing lots of different things for Palestine,here and abroad. Some are laudable, some laughable, some disgraceful. The going there means nothing; what you actually do is what matters.

jim

....

29.08.2004 22:17

And to this world, some are born warriors while some are born talkers. Others then are born to negotiate a path between the two.

Tris

Mystic Tris-tic

29.08.2004 22:48

Tris, we were discussing Palestine and activists in Palestine. What's all this "Edam begat Moses" tripe? (So mote it be) Have you got a point or did you just fall out of your tent and wake up in the wrong fucking mushroom field?

Care to elaborate?

Jim

Jim,

30.08.2004 08:48

I agree with you in general terms, something can definitely be worse than nothing, but I don't think we know enough to apply it to these individuals. As that doesn't seem to be what you're saying, there doesn't appear to be a problem. The 'extent' my original argument was a straw man? I intended to show that the likely alternatives for 'self obsessed middle class students' to going to palestine were less, not more radical/useful. In so doing i projected a false straw man argument onto you with a rhetorical question. I made the point, but not very clearly, sorry about that.

However, given what we know about these people its hard to draw conclusions about their motives etc, so I maintain if we are to criticise, even in general terms, we should also offer constructive advice as to what not to do to avoid becoming one of the tourists we're talking about?

Tom

Advice

30.08.2004 10:39

Tom, The other annoying thing about being an international in Palestine is that every ISMer and his dog, after spending 2 weeks in country "making contacts" (probably in Bordoni's bar in cosmopolitan Ramallah ) seems to want to presume the cliched status of war-weary veteran and start trying to thrust "advice" on anyone else who'll listen. The only advice I'll give is open your eyes and ears, have a bit of humility, and STEER CLEAR OF EXPERTS. The locals themselves don't know what's going on most of the time, whether the tanks are coming back in this afternoon, but that Swedish guy, that Californian girl who's been there a month, oh they know all that and more. Get you fucking killed. There should be signs up all over the place saying "BEWARE: EXPERTS IN THE REGION." See them fuckers, run a mile...

On tourism itself, I've nothing against it personally. I just don't think it necessarily constitutes news. (Hey, this is where we came in...)The manner in which it's done is a concern though (IMHO).

As for the other things you said I might have said but didn't appear to be saying so there's no problem there (that was, in essence, the jist of it I believe) - well, thank God for that, eh?

Jim

May I?

30.08.2004 12:23

Interesting discussion. I’ve read the diary and my feeling is that these people, though they may have genuine intentions, sound young and not fully aware, and they just got very excited by signing up for war tourism. So far, so good. We learn through experiences. What strikes me more is that they seem to be at the end of their trip and still they do not appear to have a clue...fucking hard shell they must have for their superficiality not to be slightly affected by the harsh reality. The bright side of it is that at least they are limiting themselves to “going to rallies and wandering the Old city streets”, which is far better than posing as the hero of the month, the goodhearted radical activist who leaves his art course at a Californian university for the summer and fancies himself in a guerrilla mood, strutting around delivering ill advices and putting others in danger. I’ve never been to Bordoni’s, but that wasn’t enough to avoid such encounters I am afraid. The point is- why do people go to palestine? I guess it is somehow trendy at the moment, just as south america was ten years ago. Honestly, I think one can hardly escape from an element of selfishness when heading up for such ventures, though there’s a huge difference between craving for understanding and learning, and a conviction to go and teach to palestinians how to do the revolution and feed one’s own ego by means of their misery.

Constructive advices, Tom? I’d say all you need is a brain to think with, and the usual respect and modesty that apply to every situation in life. BTW, what are yours?

And..Jim, what’s IMHO?

fred

In My Humble Opinion..

30.08.2004 13:53

...IMHO means. I tend to agree with your assessment of these people; I only didn't say it because it sounds a bit patronising. Age doesn't really matter anyway; I met some splendid teenagers/early twenties there, and some really arrogant, jumped up 40-somethings. The former may have been more naive and less worldly, but they had more hope of improving on that than the latter.

I don't claim to be entirely pure of the charges I've chucked around here either (just in case I sound anything but humble). But the experience on the ground should, as you suggest, teach - should disabuse people of their bullshit prejudices and romanticisms. I guess one should constantly question oneself and one's motives. And if you're only around for a couple of days, make sure you don't don't spend the next 365 pontificating and giving youself airs about it. It insults.

Jim

Pictures of heroism and picture of what he'sv fighting

30.08.2004 15:11

The flag waving climber at Abu Dis is expressing, in a picture so to speak, a non-violent protest against the indignities suffered by Palestinians. We have been asked to listen and report on stories and to take films and photos everywhere in Palestine that we have been. I know that's not much, but sure it's better than nothing? (We are not self-aggranding or you would know who we all are!) By the way, the pic may not attach, so sorry if it doesn't. He climbed a 9 metre wall to great applause. Fewer than 24 hrs later we saw a heavily pregnant woman, almost to term, carrying a toddler over rubble in a gap in the same wall just down the road. If reporting on these things when we get back helps just one person question their prejudices, then our time out here has been of more worth than if we'd sunbathed on a beach in Ibiza.

N
Homepage: http://jennikikeith.blogspot.om

Gap in the wall at Abu Dis

30.08.2004 15:39

This is the gap in the wall at Abu Dis - old and young have to squeeze through here or take a half-hour bus ride to cross the road.

N
Homepage: http://jennikikeith.blogspot.com

At Last! The News!...

30.08.2004 18:10

...that I asked for at the beginning. Such images surely merit equally catchy headlines. Allow me to suggest: 1) Man Stands On Wall In East Jerusalem, + 2) Which Would Be Even Worse If Not For The Little Gap, Just There, See?

Your rationale that even this standard of reportage, however, is better in a way than lying on a beach in Ibiza, smacks of Tom's reasoning re. Gap Jeans and Mortgages, (See above)- duly shot out of the water for a red herring. It's like saying cottage cheese is better than a poke in the eye with a cactus. True but stupid and pointless.

If "doing something positive, no matter how small" is truly your game plan, then next time you might try this:
a) pool all the money you've saved for the trip (airfare, etc.)
b) sell the camera too, Palestine won't miss it. And the laptop. And the shades.
c)Now give it to some family in Balata, Jenin, Rafah - take yr pick.
d) shaddap about it.

Or at least spend a few weeks knocking around such areas and talking to real people, not just local dignitaries, signitaries, NGO leaders, mayors etc. (They tend to work an angle, y'know.)As for your Auntie and the Israeli soldiers are nice kids in the main(see blog)...

Finally (I'd have thought this bit needless, but hey,)Upon the oft-employed "Well, if it just informs ONE person (that a man stood on a wall on thursday)..." line -

THEN IT'S A FUCKING WASTE OF TIME.

Jim

"Heroism"

30.08.2004 18:30

AND THAT GUY DOESN'T EVEN LOOK PALESTINIAN! LOOKS LIKE A EURO-AMERICAN PROTEST KID TO ME. THIS IS THE SORT OF CHEAPJACK SILVER-PLATE BULLSHIT HEROISM THAT WANTS THROWING IN THE FUCKING GUTTER AND PISSING ON (I.E. LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME, KING OF THE CASTLE, NOT GETTING SHOT 'CAUSE I'M WHITE) AND I'VE BEEN SAYING IT FROM THE OFF!!!!!

Jim

FUCKING IDIOTS

30.08.2004 19:01

HOW FUCKING DARE YOU CALL THAT HEROISM? I'M FUCKING STUNNED THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY GO TO ALL THE WAY TO PALESTINE AND CITE THAT PICTURE OF FLAG-BOY AS AN EXAMPLE OF "HEROISM", AND EVEN CALL IT "FIGHTING"!!!

HEROISM'S A MOTHER OF 10 BAREFOOT KIDS IN GAZA TRYING TO RUN A HOUSEHOLD ON A BUDGET OF FUCK ALL, WITH A SHELLHOLE IN THE WALL, SEWAGE IN THE UNPAVED STREETS AND THE SOUND OF GUNSHIP ROUNDS FOR A NIGHTLY LULLABY!!! NOT SOME PRIVILEGED CUNT WAVING A FLAG IN JERUSALEM! YOU SHALLOW BASTARDS!!!

I WAS BEGINNING TO THINK I WAS BEING TO HARSH TO YOU LOT, EPECIALLY AFTER WHAT FRED SAID, BUT YOU REALLY ARE TWATS AREN'T YOU?

GO TO GAZA, THROW YOUR FUCKING CAMERA IN THE SEA, AND JUMP IN AFTER IT.

jim

fuck off jim

30.08.2004 19:24

and stay fucked off until that enourmous chip on your shoulder falls off.

and whilst your busy, might as well sell YOUR computer and send the money to **** whatever, although you won't get much $$$ for it as it seems to be STUCK IN UPPER CASE (hint, we can't here you shouting).

karen elliot

Got a point, Karen Elliot?

30.08.2004 19:30

...besides fuck off, I mean? (what dazzling repartee and astute political insight)
Yeah I think it's it's OK to have a bit of a chip on my shoulder regarding the above. Does your position have an analysis, BTW

jim

Palestine Circus

30.08.2004 19:58

I assume these are the two main stories you guys out there want to tell us about, after a week in Palestine. Sad. It might be disappointing for you, but I don’t see how you’ll be able to find the way to even just ONE heart by showing them a supposedly westener tightrope walker who climbed up to a 9 mt. Apertheid wall “to great applause”. You will only encourage more self-serving heroes to go and show the world how worth they are. (I might even consider that perhaps, should you have gone sunbathing in Ibiza, you would have saved us from future hassle.) Should it be a palestinian kid, it does not make a change either. It’s not news, you’re not giving us what we need: your eyes, and ears, your picture and assessment of an ongoing injustice. I can only suggest that you go and talk to locals, stay with the families, share meals, play with the kids, listen and learn. Let your prejudices fall first if you want to do something about the others’.

fred

I take it that's a "no", then Karen...

31.08.2004 00:34

Just the "fuck offs" then, please waiter. And a bottle of Chablis for when the Oxfordites get back.

If anyone sees Elliot stamping around out there, tell her that her mother says it's past her bedtime. (And if anyone sees "Tris" tell her that the mother superior says the same)

jim.

I love you jim

31.08.2004 08:04

You're so hard and cool.

Perhaps you can slap me about a bit when i don't come up to your exacting standards

Though it seems you prefer to just stir (and attempt a one sided debate with yourself! How sad is that?!?)

You want analysis?

A hard hitting docu-drama that really moves you?

Some insight into the abyss?

Thrill seeker er? Not content with the humdrum of life in the slow lane, you want the big picture painted for you - catering for your taste in designer suffering.

Met the type before. Poo poo any and all that make any move, but have none of your own!

Perhaps you should quit your job for the security services or go back to calling yourself 'realist'.

Meanwhile, well done guys for making some effort - the world turns on a single smile.

karen elliot

Smile, though your house is breaking...

31.08.2004 10:48

OK, to (attempt to)address those bits that aren't just irrational projections and pure abuse:

"You want analysis?" - Well, of course...

"A hard hitting docu-drama that really moves you?" - It's as legitimate a form as any I suppose, when it's done well. Better than a lot of straight journalism, I'd argue.

"Some insight into the abyss?" - Please...(Cue darth vader)

"Poo poo any and all that make any move, but have none of your own!" - Well, as I hoped to make clear before, I think there's some really positive things being done for Palestine by different people. As you rightly surmise, I don't count anything I've personally done amongst them. Every time I come back from there I feel less and less sure about what's useful. But waving a flag and calling it heroism sure as shit isn't. Neither's prating about the tourist industry being the source of all woes. The mouth is lower than the eyes and ears for a reason.

"Perhaps you should quit your job for the security services or go back to calling yourself 'realist'." - Er, nope. Wrong house. Sorry.

"Meanwhile, well done guys for making some effort - the world turns on a single smile."

A single smile, yes? Well, if only we'd known it was that pissing simple all along. (All those needless tears...) Quick, tell that recently bereaved family in Khan Younis that Karen Elli "idi" ot is on her way to come and grin at them. Can you stop off in Iraq while you're there Karen?

Flowers and slaps

jim

The world turns on its axis

31.08.2004 12:44

and the Sun appears to move across the sky.

That's the cruel reality, Miss Karen in dreamland. A smile is a good thing, when there's something to smile about. At times, rage is a more appropriate response.

fred

**@##*!!??!!

31.08.2004 13:14

you people need a bit of perspective

all this circular argument leads nowhere

so far in this thread some well meaning posters - neive perhaps (is that an executable offence?) - attempt their own voyage of experience and get shot down by you professional doom and gloom merchants

posture and rant if you think it helps (hint: thats been tried before, it's called angst and is utterly self indulgent, ie useless)

you have said precisely nothing

achieved?

the world does turn on a smile, despite your apparent indifference to the notion that Palestinian people (children especially) could really do with a few more smiles, you would rather have us believe that such small offereings must come after the blood and guts you seem to want to focus on

not buying it

you hard bastards pontificate if you must, stir when you can

anybody reading this thread will wonder what it is that's eating you up

is it really the plight of oppressed people?

or are you looking for a bit of action to move your turgid outlook?

solidarity means solidarity

it doesn't mean harping and carping

it doesn't mean factionalisation or crowing about 'proper' tactics

would you treat a child to such negitivity for getting something wrong (in your eyes)?

you want us to understand something that you think we don't?

then tell us in as much detail as you can

knocking other peoples efforts make me think that you have another agenda that benefits from shooting others down in flames

either that or you haven't rationalised you own responses to pluralism and learning

either way you have wasted this thread and my time enough little boys

get over it

karen elliot

Er...

31.08.2004 13:18

Anyone else agree with me that the most coherent part of all that was the title? I suppose asking for a rational argument from that source was, in retrospect, rather cruel. (Go back to your room now, Karen...)

Jim

Er...

31.08.2004 13:19

Anyone else agree with me that the most coherent part of all that was the title? I suppose asking for a rational argument from that source was, in retrospect, rather cruel. (Go back to your room now, Karen...)

Jim

no jim

31.08.2004 13:53

We think you're a prat.

And Karen, know your place & let the man have the last word!

the voice of the people

karen elliot

31.08.2004 14:02

Just ignore Karen. Once she's started you generally have to put up with her incoherent screaming it until she tires herself out. She does more damage to the Palestinian cause than the Zionist trolls could ever dream of.

Rolf

What fucking "people"?

31.08.2004 14:45

Last word or not, I can't help but come back to that.

Can anyone think of a more fatuous pseudonym? Voice of God, perhaps?

jim

Sweety Karen

31.08.2004 15:01

A bunch of abuses with no logical consequence. I guess this is the bit of perspective we- hard bastards- need. Incidentally, should you have read the whole thread with a hint of objective reason you’ll have seen comments and constructive contributions to the original post. Or are we all to applaud any single person who travels to Palestine just because they are there? (Ehy, I’m here, mum, friends, look at me, look, look, I’m here--- that’s what my kids do when they climb up a frame at the playground, and yes- I do smile).

Yeah, go smiling and clapping around Karen, while Palestinians are being oppressed and freelance altruistics go around in the area taking pictures of the latest hero’s performance. It doesn’t make me smile, and if this make me an hard bastard, or any of the abuses you’ve just chucked around making up for some reasoning, then experience it yourself: go and smile to palestinian children who have no house, no parents, no food, no tears anymore. Turn the fucking world on your stupid smile until your cheecks atrophy.

I agree on one point. This is a waste of time.

fred

Ibiza fund

31.08.2004 17:30

Just musing on voiceofthepeople's (hereafter votp) last post ("let the man have the last word") Presumably it's intended sarcastically (I doubt s/he can rise to irony), at leats not at face value. Now, since every post is the "last word" until one supersedes it, I can only conclude (it would seem inescapable)that he means me not to be allowed to speak at all. Well, history gives us one or two terms for that sort of thinking, I believe. Makes the alias seem rather chilling, doesn't it. Maybe it refers to some omniscient computer, like in V for Vendetta?

Moving on, what with all the scorn heaped on Karen's belief in the terrestrial-rotational power of a good grin, I'm concerned to point out that humour can often be the best remedy (or weapon) possible, in my view. I made friends with some of the Circus to Iraq crew when I was last in Baghdad and their work's fucking great, but I'm sure that even they'd say "the world turns on a smile" was stretching it a bit.

Considering Karen Idio-, sorry, Elliot's view, however, can I be the only one to have noticed the stark staring anomaly: namely that she's a humourless, neurotic hagbag with a smile like a crack in shit? (And a conviction that anyone with a solid argument is MI5) In fact, I refuse to believe it's even a women writing that stuff at all. More like one of those miserable, stony, pouty big grey fish, the ones with the hugely protuberant bottom lip, that just lie on the sea bed till everyone's forgotten about them and then try and bite your leg off.

Anyway, this brings me to the title of this piece. How about a whip round to send the fascist android and the paranoid grump-fish (and the Enid Blyton trio who triggered the whole thread off) to Ibiza for the rest of the summer? As a service to Palestinians everywhere?

jim

WTF?

31.08.2004 18:06

Ok, first off Jim, bit of advice. When you try and insult someone, try and work out who you're insulting. You don't know if I'm a he a she a nun or a merc so why not try and argue with regard to fact rather than resorting to personal bullshit that you obviously think is more intelligent than it sounds.
Second, which mushroom field I fall out of which tent in is none of your fucking business.
Third, can you not read English?

I think it's quite simple really. What I said, is some of us fight (ok, fairly simple so far, yes?). Some of us prefer to talk, utilising brains over brawn. Therefore, someone has to be able to come between the fighters and the talkers to allow some kind of meaningful exchange of views. Every view is valid.
What I'm saying is you obviously want to have a fight with someone. That's great. I'm happy for you. Some people however would rather see what's going on in front of them. On seeing an event, if that event makes them feel something, they share the experience with others in the hope of educating (or at least offering another opinion). Maybe that's slightly more productive than tip-tapping on some anonymous keyboard in computer-jock land. Why not do something productive yourself? At least offer some constructive critisism rather than just venting your whatever-the-fuck angst.

Maybe the ISMers aren't doing what you would do, not seeing what wonders you would have seen by now. Maybe they haven't watched children run over by tanks or single mothers gunned down while walking to the shops. Fucking good.

What? Should they make it up? Should they try and pretend they're somewhere other than they are? Should they be all Anthony Lloyd about it and run to the warzone? That's not why there I don't think.

And surely this is what it's all about. They aren't you, they're seeing what they see. Sure, it's different to what you've seen, but that's why it's independant. This isn't the fucking press-core you know. If you want Rupert Murdoch same-same-but-bullshit watch Fox or Sky news -you'll love it. I find reports like these more interesting because these aren't professional reporters (duh) these are just some local peeps who went to see what they could see.
I fail to see your problem with that.

Tris

OK, you're invited to Ibiza as well

31.08.2004 19:28

Sorry to forget you. Now:

"When you try and insult someone, try and work out who you're insulting." -Well, I did try, but you didn't give me much to go on, now did you.(I only presumed the female because of what happens when one tends to err on the other side around here.And because my mum's name's Trish.)As it was, I had you down for a dull, posturing, phony and I see that I wasn't too far off. So credit where it's due, eh.

"Second, which mushroom field I fall out of which tent in is none of your fucking business." Of course it bloody is, Mr/s "And to this World..." Can you hear yourself?

"Third, can you not read English?" I'll let you off this one. It would be like boxing a no-armed man...

"I think it's quite simple really. What I said, is some of us fight...etc." - Well, thanks for clearing it up. Wasn't what you said though. And God knows what you consider to be the relevance to anything that was being discussed before or since. D'you mean that you (or they, your "us" is ambiguous) are sitting down to tea, scones and negotiations with hamas and the IOF?

"What I'm saying is you obviously want to have a fight with someone. That's great. I'm happy for you. Some people however would rather see what's going on in front of them."
-Well if I wanted a fight with someone and didn't want to see in front of me, I'd be asking for a clobbering wouldn't I? Still fail to see the relevance though (or indeed any logic). And stop trying to be sarky, your gift for it is even more impoverished than Mr/s "Voice Of You All".

"if that event makes them feel something, they share the experience...etc." -Sure. What event?

"in the hope of educating..." - Now, I suspect, we're getting it. Sheds a bit of light on the smug, high flown tone of your first post.

"Why not do something productive yourself?" - Since your primary argument has been to milk the "you don't know me" advantage of the anonymity afforded here, You invite me to do the same. Ergo, how d'you know I haven't?

"At least offer some constructive critisism rather than just venting your whatever-the-fuck angst." - Constructive doesn't have to be complimentary, Tris. If a thing looks and smells like shit, then it's OK to say it's shit, where I'm from.

"Should they be all Anthony Lloyd about it" - Well, Anthony Lloyd's a bit of a "welcome to my dark world" luvvie (I think), but he knows whereof he speaks. Time, you see. And a good pair of ears.

"And surely this is what it's all about." - er.. O.K. Take your word for it. Who am I to
contest the proclamations of the divine?

"these are just some local peeps who went to see what they could see." Me too. (in that everyone's local somewhere). Except I don't pour forth a bunch of hogwash about it. Neither do thousands of others, who you won't hear of.

"I fail to see your problem with that." -Yes, that's where you fail, right enough. And not just there as well.

Jim

hello jim, larry, anyone else or any other aliases

31.08.2004 19:53

I actually discovered poor people a long long time ago. I look forward to your discovery.

Anyway, I don't intend to follow your silly comments, but since N has just pointed out your posts to me, I thought I'd respond briefly.

I am well aware of how well organised the zionist right wing is, how students have been trained especially to descredit peace activists, how inflexible the minds of those indoctrinated with zionist ideology can be. I've also experienced their maniplative and deceptive methods enough times to realise that the most likely explanation of your incredibly inane posts is that you belong to their ranks and your sole purpose is to discredit us. For that reason I won't be wasting any more time on this after i've posted this reply.

(Editors of indymedia - please consider the likely possibility that Jim's purpose is to get this threat taken offline - would be v. grateful if you could not oblige him, if pos by leaving our photos and stories on but taking off the offensive stuff).

If, on the offchance, you really do believe what your comments say, then I can only suggest that before badmouthing others you come here yourself and see what the situation in palestine is really like. Since you wondered why we are posting personal stories instead of what you consider to be hard 'news' (which i have also done on other occasions), I can only suggest you consider the possibility that people are often far more affected by the personal stories their friends tell than unemotional news brought to us by the mainstream press. The truth of that seems obvious.

K

K

Enter the Saviour

31.08.2004 20:27

Between "I don't intend to follow your silly comments," and "I can only suggest that before badmouthing others you come here yourself and see what the situation in palestine is really like." lies the flaw; an elementary logical one. If you'd even glanced at those comments which you call silly (presumably because someone else told you that they say nasty things about you), you'd see that several of us, in fact, have. And at least then you'd be in a position to speak about them with some credibility. Sort of similar to your position over there, really. If you've seen anything apart from a fig stall in Ramallah, let us know (as I'm sure you will).

"I am well aware of how well organised the zionist right wing is...your sole purpose is to discredit us." You and your glorious mission, eh? Silly sod. Do you think anyone from the Israeli right would bother trying to discredit someone who thinks a white man standing on a wall in Jerusalem is heroic? You're a fucking gift to them. Self important pratt. Go wave a flag.

"For that reason I won't be wasting any more time on this after i've posted this reply."
-Scant regard you paid to it's content before, by all appearances. And I'm not surprised you don't want to read the follow up. So Your position is, "Not gonna listen before, not gonna listen after. I'm right and best cause I'm here and that's that." Are you sure you're not, as it were, in the very camp that you situate me? (fiendishly clever plot if you are...)

"Editors of indymedia - please consider the likely possibility that Jim's purpose is to get this threat taken offline" - No, please leave it up. Let the swollen-headed little fools hang themselves.

"Since you wondered why we are posting personal stories instead of what you consider to be hard 'news'" - Didn't wonder. Perfectly clear why. You want to shout "I'm here" and you've nothing else to say.

"I can only suggest you consider the possibility that people are often far more affected by the personal stories their friends tell than unemotional news brought to us by the mainstream press." -Yeah, but this sewage? Anyway, tell your friends. No one cares.

Oh, they've gone...

jim

jim does sound a bit mad really

31.08.2004 20:59

Perhaps he actually isn't a zionist 5th columnist after all, just disturbed is all (...and one for the gallery... what's the difference?!?)

Honestly mate, calm down, stop sounding like a 'realist/sceptic/bullshit buster' on steroids and enter into the spirit of tolerance and thinking it's nicer to be nice. You don't have to think of this as your only weapon (if you want to cling psychologically to your notions of masculinity - and boy are you clinging, your attitude towards the female posters in this thread stinks).

If you want to reduce the totality of Palestinian life and society as being defined by massive 24/7 suffering, then you do everyone involved a disservice. Yes the situation is dire - interspersed with long periods of dire boredom too!

The people of Palestine deserve to live normal lives, and that includes a plurality of experience - from the ispirational to the banal (hopefully stopping off at buffoonery also) - and a tolerance of other peoples non-threatening behaviour.

Alongside the struggle for international assistance and recognition of their rights, the Palestinian people also long for the simple pleasure of contact with the outside world - something forbidden them by the nature of their oppressors.

It sounds to me as if these young people were trying as much as anything to provide that, whilst enriching their own experiences and life. Are these things so terrible that you must take it upon yourself REPEATEDLY to slag them and their supporters to the nth degree?

Although it is tempting to imagine you as some zionist spook (if only because you achieve a commonality of outcome - division and divertisment), I don't think you fit the bill and anyway that would involve at least paying some lip service to a political philosophy - which I fear is beyond your present state of thinking (to characterise: 'they're all a shower of useless bastards, if only the world were more like me' and other embittered sentiments).

The voice of god only speaks once, take heed penitent fool.

the voice of god

Pardon my errant ways, lead me back...

31.08.2004 21:46

Agreed; to the tune of about 50%

"Perhaps he actually isn't a zionist 5th columnist after all, just disturbed is all" -can't fault you there. Bilious would be closer.

"Honestly mate, calm down, stop sounding like a 'realist/sceptic/bullshit buster' on steroids and enter into the spirit of tolerance and thinking it's nicer to be nice." -Again, I must concede. I did feel that there was a bit of balanced, useful discussion earlier though. And it wasn't me who drove it into PURE abuse.(Be fair) (But that bloody photo...)

"your attitude towards the female posters in this thread stinks" -Only where they themselves stink. and not because they're women, but because they really bloody STINK. Witness Missy Elliot, E.G. (See, I didn't start the gender stereotyping either.)

"If you want to reduce the totality of Palestinian life and society as being defined by massive 24/7 suffering, then you do everyone involved a disservice." -Quite right(I don't), but not as much disservice as is done to people whose daily lot is untold sacrifice and suffering, by the sort of cheap-ass posing of wall-boy and fans. (If it was a one-off I wouldn't remark on it. But there's so MUCH of it - it SHOULD be addressed.)

"The people of Palestine deserve to live normal lives, and that includes a plurality of experience - from the ispirational to the banal (hopefully stopping off at buffoonery also) - and a tolerance of other peoples non-threatening behaviour." -Elegantly put.

"It sounds to me as if these young people were trying as much as anything to provide that, whilst enriching their own experiences and life." Quite so. I even commented similarly, way back up there. But that sodding photo, Jesus? After a week over there?

"Are these things so terrible that you must take it upon yourself REPEATEDLY to slag them and their supporters to the nth degree?" No, and actually a good part of the invective you so decry has been directed at other posters here. In pure retaliation. Which (unlike them) I've been happy to justify and defend. Logically. The general thread wandered away from the "slagging" of these 3 for quite some time. Incidentally though, did you not read the last post By "K"? Come on, Lord. It's more'n a sinner can bear.

"Although it is tempting to imagine you as some zionist spook" -You don't mean that.

"...and anyway that would involve at least paying some lip service to a political philosophy - which I fear is beyond your present state of thinking" -or that. Please, exalted one.

"they're all a shower of useless bastards, if only the world were more like me" -God forbid- AAggh, No- sorry, it just slipped out!

"and other embittered sentiments" Again, there you have me.

Any chance of you casting a cursory glance around THAT PLACE (Sorry, sore point I know)and handing out a bit of similar guidance?

Jim

Fantastic

31.08.2004 23:12

This is a fantastic thread. There have been numerous very important points bought
to our attention if we care to acknowledge them.

It would be unfortunate if these points were forgotten due to the arguments, entertaining and actually useful as they are.

I believe that the purpose of trips to Palestine must be disscussed publicly.

Just as, or more importantly, the actual effect we have in Palestine- Just how damaging can it be? And believe me some short trips by ignorant foreigners can be unbelievably damaging and such people should be made aware of the damage they could cause to people they claim to care about.

The other thread on the Isreali mirage/oasis school is also interesting and useful

Sharon

Abuse

01.09.2004 09:28

I think there's been far too much flaming back and forth: web-based discussion usually generates far more heat than light.

Most of the flaming has been provoked by one determined troll, as usual.

J

End/Start it now

01.09.2004 10:11

Having just read the whole thread for the first time it seems that words fall short of expressing what we really feel. Feelings have given rise to this huge pool of energy being spent here on this page (like trying to paint a toenail with a mop). Will it help? Who can tell? Help what? We are too stupid. So what now? Do what feels best (that's the tricky bit). But lets none of us pretend like we know better or worse.

Joo

Troll -trial

01.09.2004 12:33

Sticks 'n' stones till you back it up with something, J - and then read, and respond to, the reply if you've got the spine. That's what debate is (net based or otherwise). If that produces "more heat than light" (prosaic little termite) then why're you bothering to engage in the first place? Just to dictate? No one gave you (or Elliot, Or "." , or "votp" or "K") the divine seat of judgement (without justification to reason) you know. (That's reserved for voiceofgod alone.)

Joo- The bald and self evident truth is that, while no one (certainly not me anyway) knows best, some people do know better than others. But there alwys exists the process of reasoning for those who disagree. Some say that's how humanity advances. And yes, there is a place for insult and ridicule therein; as long as it's balanced with solid argument. Look it up - it's some way before "arse". (No, a bit higher...)

Anyone want to address the arguments set out? Or are we all just hide-behind-an-alias-and-throw-a-cowardly-stone merchants today?

jim

Troll - trial

01.09.2004 12:36

Sticks 'n' stones till you back it up with something, J - and then read, and respond to, the reply if you've got the spine. That's what debate is (net based or otherwise). If that produces "more heat than light" (prosaic little termite) then why're you bothering to engage in the first place? Just to dictate? No one gave you (or Elliot, Or "." , or "votp" or "K") the divine seat of judgement (without justification to reason) you know. (That's reserved for voiceofgod alone.)

Joo- The bald and self evident truth is that, while no one (certainly not me anyway) knows best, some people do know better than others. But there alwys exists the process of reasoning for those who disagree. Some say that's how humanity advances. And yes, there is a place for insult and ridicule therein; as long as it's balanced with solid argument. And what does "do what feels best" mean, anyway? I mean, have you actually thought about what it MIGHT mean to some people? (scares me)

Anyone want to address the arguments set out? Or are we all just hide-behind-an-alias-and-throw-a-cowardly-stone merchants today?

jim

addressing the arguments

01.09.2004 13:29

"Joo- The bald and self evident truth is that, while no one (certainly not me anyway) knows best, some people do know better than others."

Yes but that will never exclude the possibility of somebody who knows worse than others comming up with the better idea.

"But there alwys exists the process of reasoning for those who disagree."

The truth is best and cannot be reasoned any more. I'm not sure words can provide us with the truth.

"Some say that's how humanity advances."

Yes some do, Do you?

"And yes, there is a place for insult and ridicule therein; as long as it's balanced with solid argument."

I agree! Now you give me an example of a SOLID argument which cannot be reasoned.

"Look it up - it's some way before "arse". (No, a bit higher...) "

Sorry I don't understand this insult/joke/sarcasm/spite/anger/advice/patronising ridicule(what is it)?

I eagerly await your reply, if you wish to.

joo

The mole and the antelope

01.09.2004 15:24

" 'Joo- The bald and self evident truth is that, while no one (certainly not me anyway) knows best, some people do know better than others.' Yes but that will never exclude the possibility of somebody who knows worse than others comming up with the better idea."

- Quite. What about it? If anyone that I've taken to task here comes up with one, I expect I'll welcome it. meanwhile...

"'But there always exists the process of reasoning for those who disagree.' The truth is best and cannot be reasoned any more. I'm not sure words can provide us with the truth."

-I used the word truth in a nominal, hopefully consensual sense as I felt the reasonableness of the point was plain. "Truth" itself is always a word to be used with caution, though; precisely because of the unqualified status you so accurately give the concept. But it doesn't exist if it isn't found in words, some say. My view? Still on the fence about that one, really...

" 'Some say that's how humanity advances.' Yes some do, Do you?"

-Well I brought it up didn't I? Wasn't that a clue?

" 'And yes, there is a place for insult and ridicule therein; as long as it's balanced with solid argument.' I agree! Now you give me an example of a SOLID argument which cannot be reasoned."

-Check this; the sense is confused. I presume you mean that my use of "reason" conflicts (in some basic logical manner) with that of "solid argument". I'm pretty confident it doesn't though. Be honest now.

" 'Look it up - it's some way before "arse". (No, a bit higher...)' Sorry I don't understand this insult/joke/sarcasm/spite/anger/advice/patronising ridicule(what is it)?"

- Yeah, sorry for that. Really. I suppose the latter would be closest. Trying to hurriedly answer you and that fool J at once. Your first post did slightly smack of a lazy, new-agey, off the top of your head, cod-philosophical stance though. (Looking at your own navel might have been a fairer charge.)Read it again. Also read the slight difference the second time I posted that comment. (Tiresome I know, but I didn't think it had gone through)

And BTW - Slightly misleading title, Joo - addressing the arguments re. Palestine would have been more to the central purpose (I suggest). Not the boring ones about me that several absent amigos (in my view by far more deserving of the troll title) sought to foment.

Anyone for Palestine? ( not that elementary lingist/ syllogistic, masochist gymnastics aren't fun, or anything)

jim

Read the latest

01.09.2004 16:43

Incidentally, "K"'s latest piece on the blog (The Bethlehem one) makes surprisingly worthwhile reading. Not in the Kate Adie tradition, not his intention, but informed by some well articulated moments of insight and moral/emotional self-scrutiny.

I appreciate he doesn't need any compliments from my quarter; I deliberately leave myself open to the charge of "patronising wanker" and stand ready to contest it. And to back up everything else I've said. (That makes me a troll, apparently.)

You ought to contrast it to what you've written previously (especially here) and hopefully have the fibre to brook a change of perspective. If not, perhaps longer trip and a bit more mingling with ordinary folk would help (sorry to repeat.)

Jim

addressing the arguments re. Palestine

02.09.2004 11:54

"And what does "do what feels best" mean, anyway? I mean, have you actually thought about what it MIGHT mean to some people? (scares me)"

Love feels best jim :o) Always will for everyone no matter which way you look at it.
Don't be scared.

joo

Big round world

02.09.2004 12:07

To you and me it does, yes. Those whose disposition renders them unable to ascend to such fine thoughts, however, tend to get their kicks otherwise. I'm sure you've noticed...

Jim

News from Palestine

04.09.2004 13:42

Some people above have complained about lack of real news from Palestine.

Check out this site:

http://palestinenews.blogspot.com/

Matthew
Homepage: http://palestinenews.blogspot.com/

Another blog

14.09.2004 20:00

http://intothemiddleeast.civiblog.org/blog - has some thought provoking commentary and has moments of giving pause for thought.

It seems that the zionists have given the thread a wide berth, and its interesting to see the label being thrown at someone for questioning the motives of "war tourists" - my own feeling is that there is a need for more Palestinian voices - they're being drowned out by a increasing cacophony of well meaning but empty words from first time trippers who haven't even bothered to do their homework...........

Karen Elliot - for ages I have really enjoyed your posts - what happened here?

:(

freethepeeps

I guess

29.09.2004 09:39

.. I got side tracked by hubris ..

Not immune to being wound up.

Sorry.

Love & respect to you & all who would use it well ...

karen eliot