Fascist Infiltration
pingupete | 17.08.2004 19:20
Unfortunately Manchester Respect, SWP and UAF have been infiltrated by a racist political party. The infiltrators are named and photographed with members of this racist organisation, as Joe Finnon and Diane Stoker, both students at Manchester universities.
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=84980
People who campaigned alongside these infiltrators need to be vigilant about security if they had access to your home address details, as other members of the racist political party have been known to act violently. Please alert other people you may know.
Much of the anti-racist activity of these organisations for the past year has obviously been compromised.
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=84980 People who campaigned alongside these infiltrators need to be vigilant about security if they had access to your home address details, as other members of the racist political party have been known to act violently. Please alert other people you may know.
Much of the anti-racist activity of these organisations for the past year has obviously been compromised.
pingupete
Comments
Hide the following 56 comments
Oh dear, oh dear..
17.08.2004 19:54
Tara
One more reason
17.08.2004 21:00
Ian
Lets all bash the SWP!!!
17.08.2004 21:17
2. Do you expect small left-wing parties to run background checks?
3. Your link leads to a closed site, some evidence we call all check would be nice.
But hey, lets not let the facts stand in the way of some heartwarming sectarianism!
Sonic
here's the full story
17.08.2004 21:45
antifa
Homepage:
http://www.enrager.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2326
Lets bash the fash AND the SWP!!
17.08.2004 22:16
TuffersPark
Fair Criticism
17.08.2004 22:27
All political parties are at risk of "infiltration" from political opponents. I think that we are all aware of that.
2. Do you expect small left-wing parties to run background checks?
No. But it is irresponsible to give such new members responsibility so quickly. How much access to membership information, anti-racist strategy and how much control did they get? At a minimum, they had control of the SWSS UniServity website. You can see that right at this moment it has been hijacked and is displaying lots of anti-left propaganda
3. Your link leads to a closed site, some evidence we call all check would be nice.
That may be because I post on Urban75 but anyone can sign up to look. The information is there at it's most extensive, but thanks to antifa for the additional link.
Please don't use sectarianism when the criticism is justified. You may have put your membership and people who have signed petitions at risk. These issues need to be addressed, not ignored.
pingupete
Thanks for the update
17.08.2004 22:56
Sonic
pete your links are fucked
17.08.2004 23:06
Those kind of sites demand that you become a member before you can even read what's being said.
It's really not in the spirit of an open publishing resource like Indymedia.
Hope no one's got your personal details from some kind of membership list.
:(
psh
Googlin...
17.08.2004 23:10
Review of 'Reds', The People's History Museum, Salford
Exhibition Review by Joseph Finnon, December 2003
RESPECT Regional North West Executive
Joseph Finnon Manchester Regional Treasurer
GET THE VOTE OUT
For more info on the campaign, please contact Kate in the Union or Joseph Finnon from Unite Against Fascism.
Manchester Against Racism
Supporting Individuals and Organisations
* Diane Stoker
Manchester police: so much to answer for
Diane Stoker, Manchester
Campbell has no shame
Diane Stoker, Manchester
That's just about all that google turns up...
...
All around us
18.08.2004 07:58
Keep checking, keep watching
Fight Nazis
Indymedia Trolls
18.08.2004 08:53
just cause the SWSS got taken over by fascists doesn't make the SWP fascist. the student Amnesty Society at our uni had significant number of people who [probably] vote Tory (you know the kind, "compassionate conservatives"). i dont think we should discredit everything Amnesty International has done as evil and ask for them to be lynched just because of some hardcore pro-capitalists in the student society.
we all make mistakes. Bakunin one of the founders of the Anarchist movement effectively preached racism (in his book "God and the State", pg 74, the inferiority of the "Oriental" man) he was also anti-semetic (Proudhon was even sexist).
Does this mean that *all* Anarchists are racist and sexist? Clearly not, all the Anarchists i know are the diametric opposite.
a thought
Links
18.08.2004 09:01
The UniServity site has been taken down now by the General Manager at ManMet now. Thanks to others for the supporting links. I'm more interested in finding out how we should deal with the actual problems caused rather than how it is reported.
pingupete
...
18.08.2004 10:29
The photo on the BNP news website is pretty convincing, but do we have any comment from those two personally, or from other sources? After all, I don't consider the BNP website as the most accurate news forum.
Having said that, it's perfectly possible. They got into a position of responsibility because they were the most active members of that party last year. If nobody new other than BNP infiltrators was actually motivated to do anything last year, then there is a serious problem there which needs to be addressed, and groups need to have a long hard look at themselves and the way in which they work.
Manchester Man
even if it's true...
18.08.2004 11:00
But let's say it's true. So, okay, correct me if I'm wrong: the BNP effectively lent the SWP two extra pairs of hands during the crucial election period.. and did so in order to 'uncover' the SWP's policies and activities, info so sensitive and secret that it's, erm, printed in Socialist Worker every week.
Tactical genius that Griffin! ;-)
(Seriously, I do take the point that the one real bit of harm this could cause - if true - is the BNP getting home addresses for people. That's a real concern. But in many cases it's likely they could get them anyway from the electoral register or phone book. If anyone gets grief, let people know and complain to the police.)
Unite Against Fascism:
type
i wouldnt worry
18.08.2004 12:04
Now accoding to the goverment advice of what to do in emergency booklets posted to all in the uk we are all to spy on our neighbours and friends and report activitys that are deemed strange so they want everyone to be fashist under the guise of twarting terrorist stuff
ab
Evidence
18.08.2004 14:08
I've previously had access to manage a UniServity site here in Liverpool for the Green Group. You need to have been set up by the administrator, who will only allow elected club officers to edit the site, and this is all controlled by a password system.
It was the homepage of the SWSS that showed up all the propaganda. It is unlikely that the BNP would have spent time trying to hack a small site like the SWSS at Manchester Uni (why not go for a better target), so the evidence points to whoever had access to the Socialist Worker site using it to post the BNP story.
As I said, I'm more interested in how anti-racist political parties and organisations deal with this information. I'm bringing up the issues at a NW Green Party meeting this Saturday and we'll be discussing the implications. People with access to membership info in the Greens are long standing members, and it is held very confidentially at a regional and national level.
I know we have screened out potential "infiltrators" in the past but I don't think we can take anything for granted.
pingupete
...
18.08.2004 14:56
Did they actually want this information to get out, or have these two just been tossed aside and left to rot? I think this scenario also shows the opportunistic and callous nature of a fascist organisation like the BNP.
Did these two outdo their usefulness? Maybe they were just too good as activists for SWSS, and had to be stopped. It seems bizzarre that the information should be released like this, and true or untrue, these two are also victims of BNP abuse and manipulation.
ManchesterMan
Man U
18.08.2004 16:09
brick 'em
Serious Security Implications...
18.08.2004 16:41
fashhunter
this is true
18.08.2004 17:26
The SWP do need to review their security procedures, but infiltration could have come through other groups as well, and such issues as candiadte mebership whatever would only delay a determined mole, not prevent them.
The questionis however serious. I undertand that the were both involved in MAR, and had access to addresses and so forth. The point is that when people give their contsct details to the SWP, UAF or whoever they assume that their addresses will not be passed to the BNP, and it is reasonable for all organisations to exercise a certain prudence. (I have been no better myself in the past in this regard, and I think we should all be shocked and think about the implications)
A big danger is that some in the SWP will feel that this is being used as a stcik to beat them and hide behind "internal inquiries) etc. that would be a mistake.
These fash moles attended SWP conference, ironicaly SWP conference held in secret, the ostensible reason being to protect the conference from fascist attack, which did happen a few years ago (1994?). I know I was there.
At SWP conference they might have learned about international sister organisations operating in countries where socialists can be tortured and killed.
Comrades take part in trade union activities that might get them the sack if their employers knew. Remember that when former IS/SWP full time organiser Roger Rosewell defected to the right many years ago he revealed many details of socialist militants to employers organisations, that led to several members of the IMG in Cowley being sacked, who were important militants in the plant. The article in the May/June issue of BNP paper "Voice of Freedom" (kindly dropped round to me regularly now by the local BNP) exposes Clive Searle's place of work and effectively argues that he should be sacked for bringing his school into disrepute. This story presumably came from the moles.
SWP comrades are to their credit involved in anti-deportation campaigns and sometimes know details that (were they known to the home office) could lead to a deportation.
It matters not that these two infiltrators may not have been active in all these campaigns, a lax understanding of security probably means there was loose talk in pubs.
I hope that there is an open discussion in the left in Mancs to try to decide what they knew, and what damage might have been done. What positions did they hold in the movement? Whose details did they know.
I hop the SWP do not treat this as an internal matter of their own, it was an attack on the whole movement, and we need to stand in solidarity with the SWP on this.
andy newman
...
18.08.2004 17:27
I'd ask a moderator to take down that comment, which is incitement to violence, by somebody who doesn't know a thing about Manchester University, blatantly, and I'd say discussion should centre around the implications of this, how and why it happened, and in fact whether or not it is true.
I'd ask you not to threaten people I know.
ManchesterMan
complacency
18.08.2004 17:40
However, before the Greens get too complacent isn't it true that a former officer of the Waffen SS and former NSDAP member was elected to the Bundesstag as a deputy for die Guenen?
andy newman
Learn the lessons
18.08.2004 17:53
Lets hope the SWP don't add one mistake to another by allowing Searchlight to head their "investigation" into this infiltration. What's the betting they do?
AndyCole
Homepage:
http://www.classwaruk.org
Wow!
18.08.2004 17:56
We're raising the issue at a NW meeting on Saturday and I've already spoken to our membership office. We've got mechanisms in place in the NW to prevent "new activists" being given either too much responsibility or access to information, too quickly.
I'm sure Die Grunen were suitably stung into action! We are of course, not going to be complacent.
pingupete
type is complacent and an idiot it seems
18.08.2004 18:00
As someone who has their perosnal detials posted on the Nazi stromfront page, and regularly gets fash stuff through my front door to remind me they know where I live I can assure "type" it is not trivial.
Sonic first response was to think people on the left were using this to attack the SWP.
Wake up comrades. Take it seriously, or we won't take you seriously.
Perhaps you should read Nick Lowles book on C18 and read how ANL leafleters where savagely beaten after the fash learnt where they would be.
Without meaning to be alarmist the fash now know the personal habits, pubs that are drunk in, whese two or three SWP members might be doing an early morning workplace sale, and might be vulnerable. These people are nazis, it is not a debating game.
For the guy who says he knows then and they wouldnn't hurt a fly. What about BNP member and Liverpool gangster Joey Owens, connected by the police to gangland murders. Would he hurt a fly?
andy newman
...
18.08.2004 19:50
It just pissed me off that people are so quick to 'cast the first stone' without understanding the area or the people involved, and it is quite a shock and a surprise to anyone who's been working in the student politics in Manchester.
I think we do have to realise that this sort of infiltration is happening, and not just by the BNP. I think we can expect MI5 as well, or when work was being done on Palestine, there have definately been zionist activists spying too. At a student level, it is understandably hard to maintain security, because there is such a high student turnover, and activists keep leaving and joining. But I think this is also true for the SWP generally, would I be right? There is a huge desire to recruit activists, and when there is such a big pressure, people will snap up anybody who seems keen.
Not to say you shouldn't recruit, but perhaps the emphasis is wrong. Quality is more important than quantity, and perhaps more education, development and empowerment of existing members would be important to SWSS. I say this as an outsider, and what I observe may or may not be relevant to those of you inside of it.
Because these two were obviously keen, good activists, which is why they were promoted, but probably ignorant of the theory, exactly what is the significance and the threat posed by the BNP, and were obviously pretty naive if they trusted the BNP to look out for them, because blatantly they have not, and have in fact blown their cover and left them to rot. What were people so young doing in such a position of responsibility? Why, to quote the BNP website,
'NUS national executive member Tom Whittaker sacked Robert Owen, Anthony Parkin and David Robinson and replaced them with Joe and Diane'
It seems a bit harsh. Surely the organisation should treat them like people, essentially students whose potential needs developing, rather than workers with no rights. Is that a harsh indictment of the SWP? It's what I think as somebody outside of it who hasn't wanted to join for those reasons.
And I have a great deal of respect for the organisational skills and the ability to move large numbers of people, however there's a clue in the attitude towards the membership or potential membership or in fact regarding interpersonal relationships in general.
Am I using this event as a big stick to bash SWP? I don't want it to fail, I want the left wing in this country to be a viable alternative to fascists like the BNP, Tories and New Labour. I get frustrated at the left wing for not dealing with people and communities as exactly that, and instead as abstract theory, and I hope my criticism is helpful, rather than hostile.
ManchesterMan
I smell a rat...
18.08.2004 23:10
Usually if you've got a mole you only blow their cover either if it's already blown or if you need to reveal some details which you can't reveal without blowing their cover. Why not leave these two working inside the SWP indefinitely? Why blow their cover so easily?
Did these two really have significant national roles, given that the SWP only normally promotes people with a record of campaign organising and ideological conformity?
How did they find out about the alleged "relaunch" of AFA? It's the first I've heard of this: HAS THERE been an attempt to relaunch AFA? And surely if there is, the people involved wouldn't tell SWP activists, since everyone knows AFA and SWP hate each other?
Ask the big WHO BENEFITS question - I just don't know how the BNP benefits from this.
So one of two things:
Either they are not moles as such, but just left the SWP and joined the BNP, and now the BNP is trying to exploit this to create paranoia,
Or there is some underlying agenda underneath the revelations, perhaps an attempt to pressure the SWP into becoming more closed and sectarian. We all know the BNP have MI5 links so start thinking folks: who gains from this and why?
Andy
e-mail:
ldxar1@resist.ca
casting stones
18.08.2004 23:59
As someone that understands how the UniServity system works, I then emailed the General Manager at Man Met Uni so that the SWSS site that was promoting the BNP got wiped as early as possible the next morning (I've swapped a couple of emails with them since). The chances of people looking at the site on any single day are small, but I don't believe in giving racists free adverts. I then posted to Indymedia Tuesday night so that everyone using this site was alerted.
The BNP know where I live, they have my address and I have been harassed in the last six months. However, I accept that and I have been suitably cautious as a result. For people that don't expect that we need to alert them straight away. Imagine if Joe had been popping round to yours for a cup of tea with a couple of friends before you read this? By posting stuff on Indymedia, Urban75 or Enrage we communicate quickly and effectively to relevant people to be cautious. Let me also make it clear that I am very angry that people have been put at risk, perhaps only after signing a petition.
There is a lot of suggested violent stuff that has followed on the two concerned that I disagree with. This was bound to happen. I don't know them personally but let me make it clear that Diane Stoker was the one authorised to publish the stuff on the SWSS site. She named herself and Joe Finnon online long before I published their names here on Indymedia.
I feel we need to be pragmatic and not too afraid to discuss the issues. The BNP are always desperate for publicity but 99% of people don't read Indymedia or follow U75 type forums, and most of those that do are leftish. We can continue to discuss it here because the mass media probably (and hopefully) won't touch it. I would expect left wing papers and/or the Muslim news to comment on it, but then the story dies.
More importantly, all of our organisations are given a kick in their complacency, with the affected organisations having some form of investigation and making provisions to stop it happening again, while the rest of us review our procedures. No one has to be explicit about what the measures are, but it might reassure people to know if that all steps are being taken to ensure this won't happen again. I am hopeful we'll see something (officialish) from people in North West RESPECT (I am hearing that Finnon was the Manchester Treasurer but I haven't confirmed this), SWP and UAF soon.
pingupete
Who benefits?
19.08.2004 00:38
It would be interesting to hear what the SWP had to say, I am sure they are feeliing a bit sick. Not just because they have lost another two hard-working comrades.
Surely, MI5 would not see the SWP as a threat, not least because Leninism is dead.I think M15 would miss them if they weren't there, though I can't see how they could use them as nowadays. However, I think they'd still certainly want to ID their members. The BNP could get bigger and stronger, so M15 probably gets much closer to them so they know what's going on, and can, if it is necessary, at some point, manipulate or use them.
Hammy
her number
19.08.2004 09:48
Cocky
security measures?
19.08.2004 09:56
But with respect to suggestions from Andy Newman et al, would you agree there's a counter danger of becoming so security conscious that a general air of fear and suspicion prevails, stifling activity and deterring newcomers from any activity?
I'm not saying I have an easy answer. Clearly in setting up any campaign it's probably worth making sure contact lists are held by relatively long-standing activists. But even then, I think we have to accept we'll never have *absolute* security.
The worst response would be to retreat into password-protected cliques.
Unite Against Fascism:
type
Dangerous
19.08.2004 11:59
I wonder if these students were "seduced" over to the BNP then touted as being moles? Or were they actually moles? And if so what would they be achieving here?
It is quite sad that those who preach tolerance and respect are faced with these thugs and have to watch themselves and where they go, espescially in what is meant to be a "developed democracy".
I'm not a SWP supporter but I would rather be sat their side than with the BNP. I have had the "pleasure" of speaking to this "party" on the street during campaigns. I suppose because of who I am (well known locally rather than these rent-a-mobs) it was easy for me to shrug off their stares and general attitude of violence. But it was not a nice feeling. When this translates as being under threat (even in your own home) that is dangerous.
What i am trying to say here is that any suggestion that these people could gain personal information on those they perceive as their enemies need sto be treated with utmost seriousness and procedures put into place to ensure it never happens again.
Jay
Haw Haw!
19.08.2004 12:00
The Ghost of Mr Joyce
Yeah, thanks for that
19.08.2004 12:36
Yep.
The Exorcist
Some advice for the SWP
19.08.2004 14:33
The SWP could take the following immediate steps to improve their security:
1. Stop leaving blank membership cards lying around at Marxism (as has happened often in the past)
2. Require all new members to be proposed and seconded by an existing member only after they have been active in their local branch for three months
3. Develop a membership based in the community rather than the transitory bedsit land of studentville
4. Do not add anyone to e mail or phone lists unless they have a home address that has been checked
5. Avoid a political culture where loyalty to a party official, or fulltimer, is more important than politcal integrity or loyalty to your beliefs
5. Quit working with Searchlight. Given the number of moles Searchlight has in the BNP, it is very likely Searchlight knew about this operation - if so the SWP need to be asking why they let it run.
6. The SWP are a pretty weedy bunch. They need to beef themselves up a bit, so any infiltrators at least feel slightly wary of taking them on. Lets face it, being threatened by Manchester SWSS is a bit like being threatened by Pike from Dad's army.
One of the things that must be most disturbing to the SWP is how comfortably people with vastly opposing politics were able to pass themselves off as committed SWPers. I would suspect that is because SWP politics are actually very easy to imitate - just take a liberal position on every single issue, shout "Ra, Ra, Ra" and bob's your uncle.
u75er
BNP response to this thread
19.08.2004 15:30
From: "
Subject: LEGAL NOTICE - READ NOW
This email is being sent on Thursday 19th August 2004 at 15:42 BST
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
I am giving you notice under the Protection From Harassment Act 1997 that the publication on your website concerning the display of the names and addresses of Diane Stoker and Joseph Finnon of South Shield and Sunderland respectively, along with other personal details at the following link -
Yours,
Lee Barnes LLB (Hons)
Legal Officer
British National Party
BNP
Comments on the BNP's email
19.08.2004 16:02
2. It was the BNP who made the names of their two members public, along with info. about which colleges they attend and what courses they are doing.
3. The last part of the BNP's demand is ridiculous. The chances of Indymedia being able (let alone willing) to provide "the names, addresses and details of the individuals who posted the link and all those who have access to the link" are zero.
Ms Sensible
How ironic!
19.08.2004 16:11
The police don't give a shit that the BNP put activists names and addresses on redwatch, so if they give a shit about these two scumbags then that will say a lot about the politics of the police...
Also Google will catch up soon:
Plus if this info were to be posted to Usenet then there would be no way to keep it private...
I (kinda) feel sorry for the parents (I assume the addresses posted here are their parents addresses since they are not Manchester addresses) if they are not racist sucmbags like their children... But if they are then I have no pity for them.
I think these two are gonna have an interesting next term at Manchester University, if they have the bottle for it, I expect they might not turn up come October...
Nelson
Indymedia
19.08.2004 16:34
The fact their names are (were?) listed on the BNP's own website (and published by the students themselves on the SWSS site at UniServity) the threat of removing names is empty. The story is a news source quoting a "news source" as such. This story comes from Urban75 and one of the sources for that story came from the BNP website.
Redwatch is hosted abroad so UK laws don't apply (which is why they get away with it). I don't think Indymedia has the same protection or needs the hassle over addresses. This could of course all be part of another "sophisticated" sting operation and watcher turns out to be another mole. The BNP must be gutted that the only national papers likely to run the story are the Muslim News and party-linked newspapers.
pingupete
using swp
19.08.2004 16:53
" Surely, MI5 would not see the SWP as a threat, not least because Leninism is dead.I think M15 would miss them if they weren't there, though I can't see how they could use them as nowadays. "
of course they would miss them!
can you really not see how swp are used to maintain the status quo?
how their unaccountable 'upper echelons', ensure that every new movement with potential to exert real political change in this country gets a SWP-dominated 'umbrella organisation'?
how that organisation - say 'globalise resistance', say 'stop the war coalition', say what you like - then organises newby activists onto trains, into shouty marches that go nowhere, to sell papers and man stalls and sign petitions? how that umbrella organisation, through key paid activists and politically shameless behaviour then make sure that the umbrella group marginalises and will not publicise calls to go to the actual airbases, the corporate offices, the ports and quarries and everywhere that the fucked up system can really be confronted and destruction of what we love actually STOPPED by mass action...
and as the public face 'of the movement', favoured by the mass media, these groups attract politically naive dissenters, who go nowhere fast until they are bored sick with shouty politics and go back to a life of drinking and shopping themselves into oblivion?
oh god I wish I was just a sectarian, real world politics would be so much easier...
where the BNP are plain evil, the SWP suppress promising social movements
so.... no party but the free party!
love and peas
voice of experience
Homepage:
http://www.schnews.org.uk/monopolise
Knew it!
19.08.2004 17:27
Maybe someone could post the details on an Indymedia site not in the UK, Then post a link onto every leftwing UK news site? Technically the data wont be held on a UK server.
However it's a childish thing to do. Indymedia UK should probably remove the details, they serve no purpose now. We know who these people are, we know that they're scum. And from the (mainly) constructive discussions on this thread i think most people have learnt a lot about the backstabbing Judas BNP (hopefully SWPers are reading this stuff!)
Fascism like Communism will not work
IMC UK Legal Disclaimer
19.08.2004 21:28
IMC UK is an interactive site offering inclusive participation. All postings to the open publishing newswire are the responsibility of the individual authors and not of UK indymedia. Although IMC UK volunteers attempt to ensure accuracy of the newswire, they take no responsibility legal or otherwise for the contents of the open publishing site. Mention of external web sites or services is for information purposes only and constitutes neither an endorsement nor a recommendation.
Proud Prole
''using swp''
20.08.2004 00:17
However, I disagree on one point, I dont think M15 have much if anything to do with this. They could have a few long-term infiltraors in there pushing the destructive line, but it's not going to be significant. No, that's just the way the SWP are, and it's always been their culture. I think MI5 love the SWP for doing the work of the state overtly, and so would 'miss them'.
You could say that if the SWP didn't exist MI5 would want to invent them. So if the SWP does eventually go completely arse-end-up, then MI5 would want to create something to carry on doing a similar role. What form it would take is debatable, but it would take a lot of cash to breathe artifical life into Leninism.
The SWP were the most visible and effective independent recruiters on the left for a long time, although this has been reversed in recent years (they have contracted to less than a few thousand). The non-authoritarian left could do with reaching out, to pull in fresh activists, and are think have begun to try, athough that's another issue. But sensible security is going to be important in new movements, and it's good that there is a lot of knowledge around.
Even though I have subtantially slagged off the SWP, I did vote for RESPECT in the Euros, although I did spoil my ballot in the Locals. And when some Blairite arse slaggs them off, I sort of defend them. You know what I am saying. I know, it's not rational, so dont give me any shit about it. I'll sort it out myself.
Sleep snuggly
Hammy
edited comment
20.08.2004 00:48
IMCista
"information on the fash" removed
20.08.2004 02:43
This matter however is being further discussed. The decision to hide the comment may be revoked and the comment may be unhidden.
one of imc
(side issue but..)
20.08.2004 08:55
-
For the unedited version of this page ...
20.08.2004 09:23
watcher
With friends like Watcher...
20.08.2004 10:15
Ghost of Mr Joyce
Bright Side
20.08.2004 14:23
In a way this is a positive story as it shows how strong the anti-Nazi movement in Manchester is. These guys are obviously active and passionate Nazi’s but they could not establish a university branch of the BNP, instead they had to become moles.
Have these students now graduated or are they planning to start back this term as open Nazi’s?
If they are still at uni may i suggest someone in Manchester NUS approaches the disciplinary board with the angle that their actions are bringing your union into disrepute. It would be very hard to get them expelled from university but removing them from the union would stop them standing for any Sab positions or standing on any committees or societies.
I’m in Sheffield where we have some limited activity by the WNP on our campus so i’m watching this story carefully, we've passed clear motions through our union stating that any students promoting the BNP or any Nazi group on or off campus will be barred from the Union. Lot of people this end of Snake Pass happy to help if you want to do the same.
Disco Cat
Fascist's work place leafleted
20.08.2004 15:26
Workers Power leafleted the place on Thursday night.
The workers there didn't seem to happy with him.
squatticus
Suspicious behaviour...
20.08.2004 20:17
Obviously in hindsight lots of things now seem rather suspicious. They both threw themselves into all anti racist and anti war activity on campus, and literally signed up to become fully paid members of the SWP on the first caucus they attended. the nature of Joe and Dianes relationship (as in, how they got to know each other) was never really clear, and it now seems possible that they met through the BNP.
To be honest, as we have an open membership policy then its impossible to totally prevent all infiltration although naturally i expect people to be far more careful. And to be honest i dont think anyone who knew these people, from whatever left wing faction, would have suspected them.
As it happens - Joe is likely to be banned from the Manchester University Union for breaking data protection rules.
Diane could potentially be expelled from Manchester Metropolitan University as the university have strict rules about this sort of thing.
What I dont understand is why this has come out now, Finnon has a year left in university, and Diane has a further two. Seems to me like they've been screwed over by the party they were striving to help, as they will find this next year incredibly difficult to deal with, and rightly so.
tricky tree
Who's next?
20.08.2004 21:07
hmmm
Both Sad and Irrelevant
20.08.2004 21:29
I must say I have been rather shocked. These two “infiltrators” were after all just kids, only about 19, nearly half a century younger than myself and you would have thought that any half sophisticated Marxists would have been able to “turn” them quite easily – I, at any rate, have a certain confidence in the Marxist position. In fact I would have thought it was quite dangerous to send in such young people into an opponent organisation. I think that it reflects badly on the SWP and suggests, to an elderly outsider like myself a very low level of political sophistication within that organisation.
As for this poor devil Barnes, I feel from the information given about him, (and giving that was a bit naughty – there are people on the left who would be unhappy with that level of disclosure) he is as much a wretched victim as much as anything else - a victim of the social breakdown in late capitalism.
And if one is talking of the human resources available to the BNP here, I must add that though the BNP, or at any rate their websites’s devotion to Middle and Early English is to be highly commended, yet I would recommended to them the words of Malory
“Harlots and henchmen will help us but little,
They will hide them in haste for all their high words.”
(Malory Works Vol.1 ed Vinaver, OUP, 1967, p.235 for those who seek a scholarly reference).
But my final feeling is one of sadness at what appears to be the irrelevance of the left here in the UK. The bourgeoisie does not even notice us (or the fascists) and just laughs while getting on with making money and destroying workers organisations.
How cheering on the other hand did I find a report on the web of the reports in the Pakistan newspaper Daily Dawn of a furious discussion about Trotsky after the publication of “My Life” in Urdu. Incidentally the Marxist Internet Archive is hoping to publish the whole of Capital in Urdu on the web which is being translated in Pakistan. I am beginning to think that any hope of a socialist transformation of the world we may have will come from the Third World, but not from the peasantry as the Maoists believed, but from the enormous proletarian forces that are rapidly being created on a gigantic scale in China and the Indian sub-continent.
Elderly inactive Trot
Ted Crawford
We are all in the gutter...
21.08.2004 08:54
The Ghost of Mr Joyce
When faced with a rabid dog ...
21.08.2004 10:27
As regards the disclosure of personal details, I hardly think Barnes has grounds for complaint given postings made by him (in the guise of his alter ego "Vidar") on Stormfront Britain on 16 May 2003. After a posting by Barnes (seeking to publicise the home addresses of Anti-Nazi League members and others) was deleted by the moderator, Barnes protested as follows:
"Why is it that the ANL are allowed to spread lies about us all over their websites and ask for information on activists but when we retaliate and ask for the same information the post on this site gets wiped.
Do reds get more freedom of speech than we do ?
What is the logic in wiping off a post that asks for unity against the common enemy and to take the fight THEY STARTED back to them ?
Do we only allow them the freedom to do as they wish whilst we cringe in the shadows and do **** all ?"
On being told by the moderator, "John Joy Tree" (alias Andy Robertson of Lewes, East Sussex), that opponents "could try to shut this place down on the basis of what you posted", Barnes replied as follows:
"How could they shut it down john - nothing illegal about asking where someone lives - every candidate in the local elections campaign had to have their names and addresses put out in public - so why the **** shouldnt we find out where degenerate lying jews like Richard Desmond live or liars like Shahid Malik.
Just knowing where they hide under their stone means they will have to be more careful.
As democratic politicians accountability for us begins on the doorstep - so why not them.
As for Juulie Waterstons address - if you spend your time causing chaos then you should expect people to take an interest in you - how else are they to be made accountable.
The fact that the cockroaches of ANAL hide in the shadows is nor arguement for allowing them to stay there - its up to us to expose them to the light and to expoe their lies.
If we , as democratic politicians are accountable , why shouldnt they , as criminals, be held to account ?
No-one was inciting violence john - just demanding the right to take our democratic right to protest about their actions to their front doors - same as they do us.
The mere fact that we are starting to organise should mean they calm down - its called taking the hint - and if that fails as i said SELF DEFENCE IS NO OFFENCE.
I remember ( dont know if you do ) when a certain BNP member with the initials MN [Michael Newland] was attacked outside his front door, tied up, tortured and had his finger broke by thugs who stole his files ( about ten years ago ) .
This whole anti-nazi league **** has gone on too long and has to be confronted.
the phrase ' self defence is no offence ' is one chanted by blacks at every demo they attend - if its ok for them why not us ?
We dont attack people, organise riots to deny elected councillos their rights to represent the people that voted for them - they do and as usual nothing ever happens to stop them.
We lost perhaps fifty seats this local election due to the lies and bull**** the anal put out - the police wont stop it, the electoral commission wont stop it, the C.P.S wont stop it - SO WE HAVE TOO.
The fight for the right for our race and netion to exist is entering a new pahse - no more fence sitting - we have one last chance to reach our goal or we are finished.
This means hard choices and firm decisions need to be made - the future of our people depends upon us making those choices.
When faced with a rabid dog you do not negotiate with it - you kill it .
In Burnley last night we saw targetting, car number plates being taken down and we can expect worse to come as the real left wing thugs get paid by Z.O.G ["Zionist Occupation Government"] to attack us.
Anything that refuses to defend itself when attacked will die - only those with the power to resist will survive.
Hard choices john - or do you want yout grandkids to be WHITE NIGGERS IN A BLACK BRITAIN ?
Thats the choice - we either win this war or we lose - no other options exist.
Its time to put away our squeamishness , our fence sitting, our craven cowardice before the systems tyranny.
The difference between an ARYAN and an european is that an ARYAN sees life through the elns of history and the future .
Its time to start the struggle - WHEN ATTACKED WE DEFND - THATS ALL.
When the attacks against us stop we stop attacking them."
This thread is still online:
watcher
I feel sick
23.09.2004 15:34
The Freshers' Fair got uber-nasty today when Joe came in...he was hounded out. I don't feel any remorse or pity for either of them, there is no excuse for their behaviour; they are backstabbing little shits and deserve everything they get.
SWSS and the SWP are going to have to be very careful from now on when recruiting.
Lotte