Clinton promised during an election campaign to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and move the US embassy there. He never did. Bush (junior) made the same promise, and then immediately moved to prevent it happening.

Reagan presented himself as pro-Israel, but immediately began arming anti-semitic Islamist Saudi Arabia, and praised their "peace plan" for recognising Israel's right to exist, even though the plan didn't even mention Israel (i.e. as if it didn't exist).

Politicians lie.

Best to view both call and response as hollow crap
IMO anyway

Conc.: the Holocaust of the Palestinians by Israel:

To avoid further stupid comments:

"It is not anti-Semitic to criticize the policies of the State of Israel"

Colin Powell: Remarks at 'The Conference on Anti-Semitism
of The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe'.

German Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Berlin, Germany

April 28, 2004 - Url.:  http://tinyurl.com/34ycr

HR

And so perhaps worthy of a little discussion.

Democratic processes are not the same as answering questions on a poll. When you respond to a poll, you are allowed one answer to each question and how you choose to answer one (or IF you choose to answer one) is independent of the the other questions and all in effect have equal importance. Real politics, at least real politics American style is nothign like that. In real life, people get to decide which issues are important to them and whihc in comparison are "don't care" issues. In real politics one can "trade", offer to exchange support with other people, agreeing to support their pet issue (even though you would prefer the alternative were this a "poll" question) in exchange for their supporting your pet issue (even though on this they would prefer the alternative were this a "poll" qyestion).

The reality of American politics is that although many, possibly even a majority of Americans would favor an even-handed policy in the Middle East, this is an exceedingly low priority issue for just about everybody but the "Zionists". So everybody is willing to trade this issue away in exchange for something they want more -- agree to support a very pro-Israel policy in exchange for the "Zionists" helping them or at least not interfering with other things. And on their part, sicne they care so much more about US policy toward Israel than any other issue, the "Zionists" will willingly do this.

For a politician, taking a pro-Israel position always gains votes, never costs votes, just about anywhere, even in the parts of the country where the "Zionist" population is quite low. That's the reality, nobody but the "Zionists" gives much of a damn about the issue so they "own it" (issues can be "owned" in this way within American politics). In areas with a relatively high "Zionist" population, not to take a strongly pro-Israel posiiton can be political suicide because the "Zionists" will vote for your opponent regardless of positions on all other issues -- and it's a "career decision" because they have a VERY long memory.

What you need to realize is that the US is a federal republic and doesn't really have national politics the same way you do. Our politics is much more local and this results in fairly close elections everywhere regardless of the fact that some areas of the country are very conservative and others very liberal. Thus while it is true that nationally the average Republican is well to the right of the average Democrat, the Democratic candidates running in a very conservative state may be to the right of the Republican national average posiiton and the Republican candidates runnig in a very liberal state might be to the left of the Democratic national average position.

Because of this "adjustment" elections tend to be close, a victory 55%-45% is considered a "landslide". If Kerry did NOT take a strong pro-Israel position -- whether he meant it or not, did not create the impression of being strongly pro-Israel he'd be a dead duck. It is barely conceivable a Republican candidate could win without being seen as pro-Israel but a Democratic candidate could not

Henk Ruyssenaars: I didn't call ne1 anti-semitic, and no-one criticised Israel's policies.

What you are saying makes you a nazi holocaust revisionist. 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust, hunted down across Europe etc solely based on who they were, not what they'd done, and died forced to death in labour camps or exterminated in gas chambers, women and children alike. In "Palestine" you have anti-semitic terrorists attacking Israeli civilians and using "Palestinian" civilians as cover, and when Israel fights back there are inevitable casualties. How many "Palestinians" have even died over this last decade or so? A few thousand? NOTHING LIKE 6MILLION!!!!

.. the numbers game ...

.. in which case, yes a few thousand Palestinians are not much[sic] compared to the 6 million!

Only question is - do you believe the numbers?

Most historians doubt the figure of 6 million, most never include the figure for the amount of russians, germans and 'other' ethnicities killed by the overwhelming majority of communist depuites and commisars who were jewish and zionist.

And what about the 'few thousand' Palestinians? What exactly is a few thousand? 1 or 2? 10 or 20? 100 or 200? When does it become serious for you?

And don't, for jehovas sake start thinking about the UN report that suggests a majority of Palestinians are malnourished, without proper access to clean water, sanitation or medical services - thats not genocide is it? Just a slow wasting away - doesn't count at all does it?

Ever heard of typhus? Funny how, in the last stages of WW2, it never killed any of the millions of people stranded in this or that concentration camp - only the germans did that.

It's all to twisted to unravel without some idiot accusing and calling you names - much easier than dispassionate analysis.

Holocaust is a jewish word - it never happened to 40 million christian russians, 2 million buddist cambodians, 10's of millions of animist africans + millions of trade unionists, gyps, the disabled etc etc.

Fuck your zionist racism/xenophobia.

Human first and formost.

"Human being" is a holocaust denying nazi:


"Most historians doubt the figure of 6 million"

No they don't. Holocaust denier anti-semites do. Serious historians debate about 5.5million-6million. Holocaust deniers rely on falsifying facts, disregarding real evidence and inventing their own. They are anti-semitic fascists.


"most never include the figure for the amount of russians, germans and 'other' ethnicities killed by the overwhelming majority of communist depuites and commisars who were jewish and zionist"

The number of people killed by communists is not at all relevant to the holocaust!!!! Unless of course you equate communist with jew, which you obviously do. If a Jewish communist in the Soviet government kills some people, he is not doing so as a representative of a monolithic conspiratal Jewish race. Only an anti-semite could relate the two issues at all. There are a lot of black criminals in case you hadn't noticed, under your logic that fact would mean that slavery was a good thing or we shouldn't complain about racism. Some communist/soviet deputy were jews, but thats an irrelevant fact, unless you are a NAZI ANTI-SEMITE. And none of them were zionists. Communists regarded zionism as nationalist and bourgois, and Stalin suppressed all Jewish identity under his communist regime, and zionism. In fact, in the few years before he died, Stalin was accusing Jews of being involved in a bourgois zionist conspiracy and was purging Jews.


"UN report that suggests a majority of Palestinians are malnourished, without proper access to clean water, sanitation or medical services - thats not genocide is it? Just a slow wasting away - doesn't count at all does it? "

Arafat and his PA minions are fucking rolling in it. They get billions of dollars from the UN, Israel, the EU, and the US, which they squander instead of spending on the Arab people. Arafat even spend something like $35,000 on Jewelry for Madeline Albright.


"Holocaust is a jewish word - it never happened to 40 million christian russians, 2 million buddist cambodians, 10's of millions of animist africans + millions of trade unionists, gyps, the disabled etc etc"

I don't know where this 40million figure of Russians comes from.... I thought it was 20 million, and 20 million Ukranians, or something. The Russians and Ukranians by the way were Orthodox Christians, and thus were hated by the Catholic Church, which saw their persecution as a bit of an opportunity. There is a different between this and the Holocaust anyway. The Russians and Ukrainians were killed because of what they did - because they were asking too many questions, not working enough, not being obedient enough, looking a bit independent, rebelling against Stalin, etc. Ukranians/Russians could survive, by being obedient and so on. Jews were murdered BECAUSE THEY WERE JEWS. They were hunted down all over Europe and deliberately shipped into GAS CHAMBERS for mass EXTERMINATION. There was nothing they could concievably do to avoid it. If you were a Jew, you were marked. The same can not be said in those other cases. And with the Roma ("gyps" as you call them), about 200,000 or so I think were slaughtered. It is a part of the Holocaust, but much less so than the Jews. (oh and when the hell have millions of trade unionists been murdered? You are quite clearly mad. I would put the figure in the 100,000s probably at most).

Go back to StormFront or whatever its called you NAZI.

You took the bait hook line and sinker, came back with exactly the amount of furious (and nasty) accusations, exactly the same anti-analytic reaction and with predictable outcome ...

... most historians DO DOUBT the figure of 6 million and many say so, including many jewish ones .. the rest either don't care too much for accuracy (gets in the way of good copy) or are too cowed by the thought of the reactions expertly displayed by you here:

"**** is a holocaust denying nazi"

Where am I denying the deaths of millons? Do I have to demark them all to which ever figure of god was PUT in their human mind? Where have I suggested that I approve of the deaths of millions? Where do the deaths of non-jews come into the debate as they are not part of this 'holocaust'?

Who are you to tell the rest of us what a 'serious historian' is and isn't? I thought it was about the facts?!?

The majority red army comissars[political] were jewish (at the time of the defeat of berlin), most espoused the zionist line of homeland for the jewish people and 'nazi anti-semite' was exactly the war cry they uttered before dispatching approx 2 million german civilians and who knows how many other nationalities recently 'liberated' from the nazies. Perhaps your 'serious historians' haven't been over that part of it with you yet?

Stalin was mad and would accuse his own mother of plotting over him - that doesn't mean that there were not plots - specifically jewish - against his dictate.

"UN report that suggests a majority of Palestinians are malnourished, without proper access to clean water, sanitation or medical services - thats not genocide is it? Just a slow wasting away - doesn't count at all does it?"

... doesn't count with you anyway - you seem to think that it's their own fault or that they should be collectively punished for the faults you percieve in their leader (who was elected not appointed) and if their 'fuckin rolling in it' why does the UN feel the need to issue urgent requests for humanitarian aid for the millions of Palestinians in need of food relief because they are denied access to their lands, jobs and markets?

And there you go - playing silly numbers games again and puting the right symbol on the right victim ... that many trade unionists, not many, this many russians "killed because of what they did" and becuase they were christians hated by other christians (not because they were hated by the same jewish supremicist racist/xenophobic attitude that you are displaying) ... you give it away quite openly.

And still no mention of typhus?!? Not responsible for any deaths in the camps then? Only gas chambers killing, burning and disposing of all those millions (of jews not anybody else worthy of a holocaust ... just the six million, forget the other 200 million victims of that war!?!) such brutal, scientifically impossible efficiency - and so bizzare to squander precious fuel reserves on the process ... 40lbs of coal per body at least x 6 million !!!

Yes there were those who callously put to death others who they felt unworthy of life, liberty and the rights of full humans ... I just don't see any nation, political or religious group coming out smelling of roses or without blood on their hands and therefore I reject such classification for ever.

Human first.

You carry on - as you obviously feel the need to do - believing that your particlar mindset (not original to you) is better than the next. Carry on fighting for dominance and for special-ness.

We hate you because of it. We hate racists, xenophobes, supremicists and those that have the choosen ear of god to tell 'em its ok to divide and conquer.

So ..who you calling a nazi? You may want to play games with the truth & the numbers to satisfy your victimhood consciousness, you seem to like to throw insults and meaningless accusations around and your attempts at analysis are laughable - amounting to: if [one] don't fully support israel and the invented history it uses to justify what is dangerously close to the creed of nazi philosophy, then [one] can be villafied as belonging to those sad groups that seek to ignore and/or reinvent the failed and miserable experiment of segregation and supremacist thinking ...

You are undoubtedly a reactionary (prefering to react as conditioned) and a racist (reducing the suffering and destruction of any group not immeadiately considered as "yours"[sic]).

Not only do you show yourself up as a deeply disturbed person, but unfortunately you give creedence to the apolgists for the nazies by arming them with percieved injusties of their own. Who - in their right minds - would accept fantasy for fact? And why bother when the facts are so damning anyway?

Your attitude personifies and perpetuates the divisions in our world - divisions that are used to maintain historical injustice and to enable one group to dominate another.

We won't even go into the finacing of hitlers germany and his rise to power - that would involve examining complex detailed structures of finance and political control that your tiny reactionary mind would reject anyway.

Do the research and don't accept the pap and nonsense that passes for it. The bastards are still here and ready to go again ...

Oh dear. We're all familiar with false accusations of anti-semitism being used by ultra-Zionists in an attempt to silence any criticism of the Israeli occupation of Palestine.

But this is the evil twin: real anti-semitism, complete with all the familiar 'Jewish conspiracy' crap and, lo and behold, Holocaust denial.

As ever my guess is these posters are not regular IMCers but either (1) yer actual Nazis, ie. BNP/NF trolls or (2) right-wingers trying to implicate IMC in promoting anti-semitism.

Either way, they can fuck right off.

or are you just out to pontificate and strike poses?

Because your views on my words (presumably) bare no relationship to them.

Throw the words 'holocaust denier' around if it makes you feel better about yourself, but it does nothing to reveal the FACTS of the matter - you know those annoying things that put holes in pet theories and destroy facile opinions?

Who is denying what?

It seems that many are denying the dire plight of the Palestinians and the role of [jewish] supremacist thinking on them, some are denying that there is any further analysis to be made over and above the accepted, oft repeated and poorly researched claim that there were only one set of baddies and one set of victims that emerged from the ashes of racist stupidity.

And if you are looking to avoid being 'implicated in promoting anti-semitism' then give up now - if you allow the truth to fold under such reactionary pressure whats the point?

Over the YEARS that I have been using and reading this sight I have seen every shade of political group attempt to address the dispicable behaviour of the israeli gov and supporters and be subsequently tarred with the inevitable 'anti-semite' brush for suggesting that the Palestinians are being mistreated (anybody want to debate that!?!).

Nazi is as nazi does - and those doing it are laughing at the inability of liberal reactionaries to grasp what is happening.

If you were standing next to me and called me a nazi or a bnp supporter, I would very likely let rip with all the pent up hate and anger I feel towards those types for the years of anguish and pain they have put me and others through - except that I wouldn't. It's then that their philosophy of hate, division and manipulation begins to win ...

Think before you write or don't bother.

Lol, this "human being" guy is quite clearly raving mad. Some pro-Palestinian guy posts commenting that I'm an evil zionist and yet nevertheless still condemning you for your quite blatant anti-semitism, and you go mad and attack him! How ironic given that you claimed that I was all mad and furious and so on. I posted in a slightly rambling, poorly written way because quite simply I find you to be a Nazi, and most IMC people, and most Nazis, don't bother writing eloquent and poetic speeches, or even using the correct grammar. So I see no reason why I should either.

You replies are VERY revealing. You automatically assume I am a Jew. Why? Because in your mind, only Jews can accuse people of anti-semitism, and they're all lying. It so happens that I am a GENTILE, of WHITE, BRITISH background. In fact, I am probably quite close to the pure-blood Englander that Nazis like yourself so love.

"If you were standing next to me and called me a nazi or a bnp supporter, I would very likely let rip with all the pent up hate and anger I feel towards those types for the years of anguish and pain they have put me and others through - except that I wouldn't. It's then that their philosophy of hate, division and manipulation begins to win ... "

The "tpyes" you are referring to, with their "philosophy of hate, division and manipulation", are quite clearly the Jews. The way you see it, Jews are supremicist, use divide and rule and manipulation, accuse everyone of anti-semitism (and only Jews do it, no gentile could ever be concerned about anti-semites like you). Basically you believe exactly what Nazis and anti-semites believe. You claim that Jews have put you through "years of anguish and pain". SEE A PSYCHIATRIST!!!! You clearly have real issues and are blaming Jews for it. You say that if a Jew were to call you a Nazi (technically you may not be a Nazi, but your philosophy is very similar - hating Jews, denying the Holocaust and its significance, and so forth, so its quite an accurate term nevertheless) you would physically attack him/her, or go mental and let out all your pent up rage. Seriously, you are a deraged anti-semite - get help.

You rant on about "Jewish supremicism", claiming that I should carry on "believing that your particlar mindset (not original to you) is better than the next. Carry on fighting for dominance and for special-ness. ", erroneously, and anti-semitically, assuming that I am a Jew, because I don't like anti-semitism. This is typical Nazi propaganda. Jews have never sought dominance over anyone. Many Jews are ethno-centric to a slight extent for the simple reason that people like you hunt down and attack Jews, expel them, and so on. Being persecuted (as well as sharing a common history and religion) tends to bring people together. All minorities do it. In fact, Jews probably do it much less. They have generally assimilated to a great extent, for example in the 19th century many converted to Catholicism and began denouncing Jews, in order to assimilate. Zionists said that assimilation had failed because Jews had no state - evidenced by the continuing slaughters and pogroms against Jews in the world.

As for "dominance", this is utter nonsense. Only a small minority of Jews were financers etc, and this is for simple historical reasons - Christianity used to forbid usury, so only really Jews could lend money and gain interest, Jews could not buy land and property, so they had no real other way to make money, and Jews were often on the move, being expelled and whatnot. Most Jews, in Eastern Europe and so on, lived in total desolate poverty, in poor and rundown ghettos. And Jews are not a monolithic group all working together. They are different individuals. If 1/10 of Asians were successful and became rich financers and 9/10 were poor or middle class, would you talk about the dominance of "Asians" (as in all Asians), and how they were supremicists wanting to dominate Christians? No. It's a typical anti-semitic mindset that sees Jews in this way.

"The bastards are still here and ready to go again "

Right.... So Jews funded Hitler's rise to power???? And they're preparing to do it again???? SUUUURRRE.

"Do the research and don't accept the pap and nonsense that passes for it"

Historians do the research. I am not a historian. I suppose you are are you? You, Mr.Nazi-on-Indymedia, knows more than the real historians, of both right and left, militantly anti-communist and militantly anti-Nazi? You've done the research? You've been from the archives and so on, and discovered that Jews were behind everything bad in history? I don't think so.

"... most historians DO DOUBT the figure of 6 million and many say so, including many jewish ones .. the rest either don't care too much for accuracy (gets in the way of good copy) or are too cowed by the thought of the reactions expertly displayed by you here: "

Ok so you know better than the real historians. Real historians do NOT doubt the figure of 6 million. As I already said, historians of the Holocaust and the Second World War debate about 5.5 - 6 million. They all denounce Holocaust deniers and "revisionists", who twist information for anti-semitic reasons. This figure has been arrived at through survivors' testimonies, eyewitness testimony, the admissions of Nazis and people involved, documents discovered, and so on. It has been found that the admissions of Nazis, the various documents discovered, and so on, all correlate with the survivors' testimonies and so on. The figure has been arrived at through proper scientific and historical research. The figures of 1 million, 2 million, or 0 million (take your pick), on the other hand, have been proven to lie, twist information, ignore crucial facts, and so on.

Communists NEVER supported Zionism as a movement. Zionism was always considered bourgeous and a distraction from the revolutionary struggle, and Jewish identity was suppressed. The Soviets supported Israel's War of Independence for several reasons, but they were never Zionists. The Jewishness or non-Jewishness of Communists is irrelevant. Stalin himself was an anti-semite, and he formed policy. Many criminals in America are black, because more blacks live in poverty, overcrowding and so on. But we don't say all blacks are criminals, because its a racist lie, or try and relate the two issues (race and crime).

"they were christians hated by other christians (not because they were hated by the same jewish supremicist racist/xenophobic attitude that you are displaying"

Oh I get it, Stalin and the Communists didn't suppress Christianity because they were Communists, they did it because they were evil Jews, wanting Jewish domination of gentiles! That's not at all anti-semitic! The Jewish religion and identity was also suppressed, moron, and it was because they were Communists who thought religion was backward. Are you seriously saying that the Russians and so on slaughtered, murdered, killed in gulags, were actually killed because they were Christians, and the Communists were evil Jews? If so, you're a mad Nazi. Russians and so on were killed in order to terrorise the population into obedience to Stalin and the Communist rulers of Russia. People were sent to gulags where they died because they weren't working hard enough, were asking questions or not being obedient, or looked like they might be independent and not obedient, etc. Not because they were Christians, and I expect many Jews died in the gulags too. There was also no extermination plan, and only some people, not "Christians" as a whole, were targetted. The vast majority of Russian peasants, remember, were Christians.

Oh and where the hell do you get the figure of 200 million dying in the Second World War? I thought it was much less than that. Given that the Russians lost 20-30 million and they lost the most people, it can't have been anywhere near that amount. And all Jews, Roma and the disabled/homosexuals were targetted for extermination because of who they were, rather than anything they had done. And the figures for Roma are something like 250,000 or less, and the others probably in the 10,000s or 1,000s only. Jews lost 6 million, and were the main target. And this was the culmination of centuries of persecution and hatred of Jews.

Lol you accuse me of "playing the numbers game" because I said that millions of trade unionists had not been killed? If you told me 20 million Ukranians had been killed, and I said well 100 million Brits have been killed by Ukranians and only 1 Ukranian was killed, and you disputed those figures, would I be allowed to accuse you of playing the numbers game? You're giving patently false numbers, and trying to deny the number slaughtered in the Holocaust. You're the one playing the numbers game.

I'm a reactionary too am I? Because I oppose anti-semitism, just like I oppose anti-black, anti-Roma, anti-Serb, etc racism? Gee I thought anti-racism was progressive. You're a fucking Nazi anti-semite. On social issues I am most liberal or left-wing, and on "global" issues I am anti-Western interventions, or imperialist interventions, or Western meddling, or the "new world order", or whatever you want to call it. I think it is you that is the reactionary....

By the way I expect IMC censors will delete all this stuff as much of it is merely discussing your Holocaust denial. If you want to continue, my email is  leavethemonkeyalone@hotmail.com

Germans were expelled from Eastern Europe, millions of them, but that's nothing like a Holocaust. A few reasons:

1) Relations between minority groups and majority nations generally been fucked in Eastern Europe. The Germans had been incredibly pro-Nazi in general, and many had taken part in atrocities on the majority populations. Some people probably also wanted to steal their property. This was revenge for all this. They took revenge by taking it out on the Germans, expelling them. Not that nice, but the Germans are hardly victims, given their involvement in the Nazi expansion and atrocities. Jews on the other hand were complete victims.

2) Germans were not systematically hunted down across Europe and exterminated.

3) The Germans who died I think basically did due to lack of food etc and travelling after expulsion. Not extermination in death camps, nor even massive massacres.

4) There is no history of 2,000 years of persecution of Germans that culminated in these atrocities.

5) Chaotic, lawless times after a brutal war. Not systematic and organised persection for the simple reason of hatred.

6) An angry expulsion. Not a long and measured process of oppression and so on.

Anyway those are a few reasons off the top of my head. The fact that the two things are not at all equivilent is obvious to everyone except anti-semites and German nationalists.

Much as I feel I should avoid what has clearly become a Thread Of Trolls, I just have to reiterate for the record the best estimates of numbers killed in the Nazi death camps (the Holocaust) is at least 6 million Jews and at least 5 million others (Roma, gay people, disabled people, and of course trade unionists, Communists and socialists).

It was a unique horror, an open wound in the modern history of our continent. It isn't a fucking debating point.

You really are incapable of reading what is before you.

Where it's not there, put it in and where it's there leave it out! You live in a fantasy world - where any attempt to analyse your prejudices and recieved wisdom is percieved as an attack.

Where to start to unravel the twin idiocies of rant and reaction?

Do I really want to? After all, I am not being paid to attend to this persons unstable mind.

Do I want to point out (again), that jewish people were and are victims of religious persecution from both within and without of their own religion? Why is it so hard to acknowledge that non jewish people were and are victims of religious persecution from both within and without their own religions (yes - including from jewish thinking and action - shock horror, tell me ain't so joe/jehova!)

And .. once more for good measure .. you play the numbers game: fiercly defending the implausible and widly unaccepted figure for jewish deaths (try novick et al; Friedlander; Finklelstein; Hilberg); cluelessly pontificating on the deaths of hundreds of millions of other non jews.

I don't care or have any opinion on whether you are jewish or not, never assumed one way or the other and took only your ignorant and shrill words to task.

You on the other hand see no shame in detailing exactly why you should be free to ignore facts, express what is and isn't a 'holocaust' - lets use the term genocide and then see how many there were in the twentith century alone, or is there a special number they have to go over to get your attention?

In fact, it is probable that more than 200-250 million people died as a result of the political and military aliances and actions that took place between the years 1930 and 1950 - perhaps a wider framwork than the traditional 'world war' but still ideologically resonant (and if you want a hand with the numbers, try counting those that perished in Asia, Africa and the far east as human being that were murdered out of idiology!).

Your arguments rest on the idea that to question recieved wisdom is the equivalent of being a nazi (I mean, come on, your pop pysychological profile of me vis a vis "The "tpyes" you are referring to, with their "philosophy of hate, division and manipulation", are quite clearly the Jews" ... clear to you perhaps, but I was refering to that which was in context ie real nazies and real bnp types that I have had cause to battle with (not always successfully - hence the pain and aguish!). I don't accept their crap and I won't accept yours either. If the only way you can characterise my argument is by putting words into my mouth - then actually I am amused:

"'The bastards are still here and ready to go again'

Right.... So Jews funded Hitler's rise to power???? And they're preparing to do it again???? SUUUURRRE"

Yes, some jews did finance hitler, as did many non jews. None of them cared for too much beside profit and managed to pass on the spoils to the family line. Large amounts of high ranking nazies escaped justice thanks to the strings that they could pull in washington and wall street AND THEY DEFINATLY want to go again - and they don't care what flag they are flying either. Ignore that reality at your peril.

You are not reactionary because you oppose *** (fill in the blanks), just the way in which you do it.

I am tied of this remedial history lesson and so don't intend to post again in this thread, so feel free to villafy me and insult me to your hearts content. The reality of what we have both said is set in black and white, and I suspect it is you who wish that they had a means of editing it!

You keep claiming that "most historians" deny that 6 million died. But they don't... Only holocaust revisionist neo-nazis do. NO serious historian doubts those approximate figures. Like I said, 5.5 - 6 million is the debate amongst Holocaust historians. You hear that? A DEBATE!!! No-one is saying that it has to be a certain figure and accepting propaganda. They debate and argue but no-one doubts that its around that area. And revisionists and deniers have consistently been shown to be liars, who disregard real evidence and invent their own. Oh wait sorry just notice you gave some names. All German names. None of whom I recognise. SHOCKING. Since the 1980s right-wing German nationalist historians have been trying to claim that the Holocaust wasn't signifcant so Germans shouldn't feel guilty, tho the vast majority, or the mainstream ones at least, did not deny the 6 million figure, they just said oh other people died elsewhere too, or tried to justify it. I don't find it suprising that you can find German "historians" who are holocaust revisionists. Croat "historians" deny their genocide against the Serbs too, and the holocaust. Is that shocking proof? All serious historians don't doubt the figures.

And what Jews exactly funded Hitler?? Even if this were true, which I doubt, how is it relevant? Did the Jewish race as a whole fund Hitler?? Only if you believe all Jews are in a monolithic conspiracy, i.e. if you're an anti-semite. And, oh surpise, you repeat anti-semitic propaganda about them only being in it for profit. There were Ukranians who supported Communism and Stalin, so by this logic, Ukrainians are a bunch of whiners and Ukranians are also evil too or something? Strange logic, and based on invented facts as well. And it appears that you think that international finance and Washington are associated with Jews? THERE'S A SUPRISE! Washington saved Nazis to fight the Soviets. Great. Not at all relevant to the Holocaust, or Jews. The American gov was anti-semitic and refused to save any Jews.

Questioning recieved wisdom does not make you a Nazi. I question it all the time. I question the idea that the Allies gave a flying fuck about the Jews. I question the propaganda against the Serbs and all these "Greater Serbia" propaganda claims. But I don't say "actually only 100 people died in the French terror, all serious historians know this" and then back it up by naming a couple of French extreme nationalist madmen. Its fine to question things etc. But holocaust revisionists don't do that, they are anti-semites and nazi sympathisers who twist the facts in order to deny that the holocaust happened, or seriously reduce the figures. Look at the facts. Read about it, and how they lie. Have you never noticed that a few decades ago nazis were saying the holocaust was a great thing, and now the very same nazis say that it didn't happen?

What makes you a Nazi is your association of Jews with conspiracies, working together as a monolithic group, claiming they want to dominate people and rule gentiles, saying communists are just jews regardless of the real facts, saying that oppression in Russia was jewish oppression of christians, saying that the holocaust didn't happen or only a few died, trying to minimise the importance and significance of the holocaust in order to make the jews out to be bad, etc.

I'm back .. but this ones a screamer (literally).

Those "german holocaust denying nazies" are actually jewish american academics.

Wall street made a mint from that and other genocidal interventions and atrocities. If you want to refer to that as a conspiracy - go ahead. It is.

And for a more esoteric - and less rigidly religious rhetoric - note that zionists sprang from the 'Sionists', or cabalists of the middle ages and are only loosely associated with the vast majority of Jewish traditions, with which they sometimes cloak themselves.

That the jews and liberal reactionaries fail to notice that their prejudices and xenophobic tendancies give rise and comfort to reactionary mercenaries is my lament - I'll not get dragged into making facile comparisons between the god fearers, they all suck.

So maybe its pushing it a bit to say saying that oppression in Russia was jewish oppression of christians, but only in the same way as it is to constantly talk up the numbers of jews murdered by the nazies at the same time as talking down or excluding the numbers of non jews murdered by the nazies (and by stalins murderous and predominantly jewish fanatics)

I lament both and decry both sets of perpetrators and the cant and stupidity that allowed them the freedom to do it.

You typify the obscurist outlook that helps hide the real issues and allows only for a neat and comfortable underscoring of 'history lite'. To tell you the truth, I really am getting bored with attempting to find coherent points in your lengthy insults towards me.

Now you really can have the last word here (make sure it is as uncomprehending and incomprehensible as the previous!) ...

"Those "german holocaust denying nazies" are actually jewish american academics."

Ok fine. I didn't look closely at the names, but what I said about German historians is still relevant. You got a bunch of self-hating Jews to prove it. Oh, wait a minute! WHOOPS! I just did that typical Jewish-Zionist thought control mechanism, calling anyone who disagrees a self-hating Jew! And everyone knows there's no such thing! Except for the fact that self-hating Jews have always existed and always will. They want so much to be accepted that they denounce everything about themselves. E.g. in the 19th century many Jews converted to Catholicism to gain acceptance, and became ardent anti-semites, going out of their way to denounce Jews. Famous example? Karl Marx, who was an angry anti-semite, despite being of Jewish descent. Then today, hear about the Christian anti-semitic far right in America, that wants to convert Jews and thinks they're evil plotters and so on, and run these Jews-for-Jesus groups? One secretive leader of one of these groups is himself originally a Jew. Given that holocaust denial is spread by anti-semites and is based on lies, these people must be self-hating Jews.

I have no way of knowing whether these people even exist, they are in fact Jewish, they have any academic/history credentials, etc. It is a fact that holocaust deniers twist the facts to suit their anti-semitic agenda. I have read in detail of numerous examples of this, and the true explanations. REAL historians do not doubt the 5.5-6million figure. Regardless of who propogates holocaust denial, it does not make it true.

And you now talk about typical anti-semitic things. What the hell are "Sionists"??? How, without a Jewish conspiracy, can groups in the Middle Ages be at all related to a 19th-20th century movement? Oh wait thats right, according to you there is a Jewish conspiracy. Perhaps these "Sionists" also wanted a return to Zion. That wouldn't suprise me, Jews often attempted that throughout their years of exile and persecution. Zionism was a SECULAR, not religious, movement btw that wanted to establish a national home for the Jews, believing that assimilation had failed because everyone still hated and persecuted the Jews, and Jews needed their own country again.

And you refer again to "the Jews", as if they are one monolithic bloc acting in an organised way, rather than all sorts of individuals.

I have never talked down the number murdered by Stalin. And his followers were not "mostly Jewish". Socialism and communism were popular amongst some Jews in Eastern Europe because it promised an end to discrimination and persecution, and the massive poverty they suffered. And Stalin's followers were not "mostly Jewish". The Soviet bureaucracy and state machinery was millions and millions strong, the vast majority must not have been Jews, and even those at the top followed Stalin's direct orders, and he was an anti-semite. And the fact that some were Jews is completely irrelevant, unless you think all Jews work together in a conspiracy etc etc. And the Soviets sponsored the Arabs. And take a look at Soviet anti-Jewish propaganda in the 1967 war, exactly the same as Nazi propaganda. Can't really see why a Jewish-controlled Communist regime would do this frankly...

I really can't be bothered to argue anymore, given how much time I've wasted already. It is impossible to argue with an ardent nazi and anti-semite like yourself who clearly believes in some Jewish conspiracy or something. Anti-semitism like this defies all logic as it is. Trying reading up on holocaust denial/revisionism. You'll find that many of its main proponents a few decades ago were saying the holocaust was a good thing, and now say it never happened. You'll also see how they twist the facts.

Earlier on today I thought you were some anti-semitic leaning leftist, and my use of "Nazi" was not literal, now I realise that you ARE in fact a full-blown Nazi. Oh and btw, I notice you completely ignored the fact that communism suppressed the Jewish religion, and Jewish identity, too.

The facts: Bush & Sharon are the worst anti-semites in the world.

Conc.: the Holocaust of the Palestinians by Israel:

To avoid further stupid comments:

"It is not anti-Semitic to criticize the policies of the State of Israel"

Colin Powell: Remarks at 'The Conference on Anti-Semitism
of The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe'.

German Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Berlin, Germany

April 28, 2004 - Url.:   http://tinyurl.com/34ycr

Boston: Url.:  http://tinyurl.com/3xplu

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"John Kerry has Jewish roots -- Who knew ?"

'Jewish Telegraphic Agency' :  http://tinyurl.com/yro5b

ADDITIONAL MUCH NEEDED INFORMATION - BEHIND THE HEADLINES:

Front-runners for Kerry ticket are strong on Israel and Jewish issues:

How many more tax-billions a year ?

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