Solidarity folks :-)

Yet such direct action has shown itself to be of very little use, if not useless. Makes the protestors feel good but achieves little, if anything, else.

Far better spending your time doing more constructive things.

What do you propose? Voting for the right party? Something else? We're all ears.

Yeh, sitting at home (or at work) commenting on how useless everyone is, is a *highly* productive use of time. I mean, if we all did that all of the time we'd have a mass movement ready to overthrow the capitalist regime. Just Do It eh?

direct action, now lets see...
gm crops - doing pretty well there i'd say given the odds
road/land protests - coming along nicely
military bases and various corporations - are more than a little pissed off

i'd say that was a pretty good track record

occupying castles is visable, imaginative, empowering, media accessible (which is useful sometimes), fun.

now then, lets look at the alternatives..

voting...
sitting on your arse....

great track record there for voting. not.

that leaves sitting on your arse then. now that'll work.

This kind of thing tends to be a middle-class fetish and about as effective as a chocolate fire guard.

Whatever it is, whatever ur pissed off with - ACT - GET UP AND REACT against this BULLSHIT WORLD REALITY that is imposed on YOU and fight back!

Don't slag others biatch! - get off ur ass!

Anarchy now!

It's exactly this self-indulgent 'anarchy now' bollocks that turns Joe Public off revolutionary politics.

Radicalism for radicalism's sake! Nobody knows what to do anymore! A supposed left-wing government, is right-wing and for the rich and big business, and, as we have just seen, the divide between the North and the South, the divide between rich and poor has actually widened under New Labour! What are we to suppose from that? I suggest that this Labour government is keeping sweet all the old Tory voters, and very little less.

It's a shame, and invading old castles I don't think will change that; if it did, you wouldn't get near the place! If these folk were really interested in challenging society, the establishment, the status quo etc etc, they would campaign for a fairer wage, less centralisation, less London-centred policies, and a most definite attack on privilege and antiquated class systems and the like. Perhaps that might be too much like reality though, hey, perhaps safer if we involve ourselves in obscure and non-threatening acts of 'rebellion'? Seems to be the case I think.

When is anyone going to challenge the economic injustice? The glaring differences between middle class and working class wages, lifestyles, healthcare etc etc? I don't see it happening. We live in a divided nation, and it will take more than bandaids and plasters to heal the wounds.

Internal radicalism is fine, but it doesn't change anything, like talking-shop socialism and winebar socialism, it is merely to assuage the guilt of the privileged.

There are no ready answers, I wish the castle-invaders well, and hope they find something that really does challenge injustice and hypocrisy.

direct action, now lets see...
gm crops - doing pretty well there i'd say given the odds (so it is the direct action that is making people change as opposed to the scietific community or the market-forces in general is it?)

road/land protests - coming along nicely (just how? I have yet to see an anti-road campaign work and I myself am in involved with sustainable travel. It is these protests that allow the pro-car lobby to label us all as nutters and build their way through us)

"military bases and various corporations - are more than a little pissed off" (oooh, bet the Bushes of this world are going weak at the knees! "Sorry Mr President but we are going to have to rethink our global domination strategy" "Errr....Why?" "Because a bunch of protestors are chained to the outer gate at a base in the middle of the English countryside")

"I'd say that was a pretty good track record" - I wouldn't!

occupying castles is visable, imaginative, empowering, media accessible (which is useful sometimes), fun.

"now then, lets look at the alternatives..

voting...
sitting on your arse....

great track record there for voting. not.

that leaves sitting on your arse then. now that'll work."

Which will reflect your lack of imagination and inability to live in the real world instead of some fantasy nirvana you envisage. The best and most lasting change comes from within. Study a psychology book sometime and understand the reasons behind change. I have yet to see one that starts:
"Change begins by chaining yourself to a remote castle in Wales...."

there are many comments criticising the occupation of beaumaris castle as a waste of time and because it changes nothing. however, by making a public stand which is high profile and in your face, if nothing else you are making more people aware of the situation. the action taken may not directly change the situation or influence the people at the top who make the decisions, but the more people who are aware of the dire situations in palestine, iraq and afghanistan, the better the chance of change. if you think it was a waste of time, you may as well live in a dictatorship.

Well, thank you for highlighting these issues. Along with the rest of the nation, I was unaare of the situation in the Middle East. Those pesky media folk have completely let it pass them by. Someone better call the BBC or whoever, and quick!

You've made yourselves feel better, well done! Now let's get back to seeking out real change.

And do you know what? The media don't report such things that much because they see such protests for what they are - ego trips with as much backing as a one-legged man in an arse-kicking competition. The issue might be important to people but they just see these protests (rightly or wrongly) as a bunch of nutters with nothing better to do and are scared of getting involved in any political debate that is not framed their way.

In Liverpool we have a church group (I assume they are a church group) that stands, every Wednesday rush hour, on a major arterial route with their banners asking for peace and declaring the Iraq war as wrong. They have not tried to get publicity, they just want drivers and passers-by to see that they are not happy about things. And do you know what? People are respecting them. People are seriously trying to read all the banners before they drive off from the lights; it has got people on buses talking about the war, and the protestors have not annoyed anyone or impinged themselves on people's lives.
Imagine if they had decided to start off by scaling St John's Tower or the Royal Hospital's chimney next door to them. People would have said, straight off, "nutters" and wanted nothing to do with them.
Bob Paisley once said "If you want people to hear you, speak softly". The more you think of this, the more it seems right. Not bad for a footy manager!!

There are serious problems inherent in most, if not all, such activities as occupying castles and the like. I don't know any working class person, or even from other backgrounds, who would do, or admit to taking part in such activity! Most people would feel that such behaviour is, at least, a little naive, and at best, somewhat missing the point. To earnestly claim, as some such activists do, that such activities 'raise awareness and consciousness', is not only a little patronising, assuming all 'ordinary' people live in a vacuum, but is somehow also at worst gloriously irrelevant!!! No disrespect to those who do involve themselves, but the reality is that Bush, Blair, and world power leaders in general are not going to quake in their shoes because a few basically middle class students in gap years stake out a castle in the middle of nowwhere, or march through London with a few banners, pointing out breathlessly what most people already know anyway! Talk about 'statin' the bleedin' obvious'!!!

I also feel that such groups as these, and I am certain that many of them are decent and idealistic, seem to act and do things in a sense that what they are doing is absolutely correct, somehow vital and far more worthy than anything else!! At best, rather middle class in outlook, and at worst a little self-important!! We ALL knew that the war in Iraq was a BIG mistake, not just well-educated middle-England middle-class students and anti-corporate types and we ALL knew that the war in Iraq was about American imperialism and controlling vast oil reserves. In effect, about rich people getting richer.

The war on injustice doesn't belong to the well educated and the privileged, it is everyone's preserve to tackle injustice wherever they may be. The problem is that, as many middle class people have good careers, good education, better housing and the like, they are claiming the high moral ground as well!! This is to many people distasteful; what passes for injustice in Britain, passes for something else in other parts of the world. It is all linked in effect. In the Third World, injustice is children being exploited, sweatshops working people into the ground for a pittance to make cheap trainers and jeans for the West. In Britain and America, it is allowing people who are already wealthy and privileged to ride roughshod over everyone else, the system that allows one place in a wealthy country to remain poor and economically deprived, whilst another town has wealth and unfair advantages. These are far closer to what ordinary people are interested in, than the sons and daughters of the well off campaigning against this and that!

When these people, and I believe hell will freeze over first, campaign against poverty, the class system, institutional injustice, and the serious economic differences in Britain alone, I will applaud, and then they truly will begin to have relevance. Attacking obvious targets to assuage guilt changes nothing. Ultimately, those attacking Bush may have to genuinely look at the system in Britain, and their own place in the increasingly unjust structure of British society. Don't hold your breath waiting!!

From my vast expereince - the people who sit around saying 'people should do this and that' - and 'that's no good', 'they are this and they having got it right' - do fuck all - or talk themselves into doing nothing but moaning about the class system. There is an old marx or Robert Tressel thing which talks about 'working class people particiapting in their own oppression'. Maybe a lot of direct action is middle class, maybe people find it hard to imagine why people think GM crops are so important - or campaigning against the mass murder and torture of our fellow brothers and sisters in Iraq by British and American sodiers is important - whilst the vast majority of working class (and middle class) people do nothing. Would these so called class warriors like the middle classes coming into working class communities and taking up issues of poverty etc etc??? I woudn't. Its good that people are doing stuff it's good that people (if they are all middle class which I doubt) are doing stuff against the war, against GM crops etc etc - these issues are important, they are issues people can focus on becasue maybe they don't see what's happening. But where are the class warriors, what are they doing - to fight against poverty, cops etc etc - the arms or the private and the state is wrapping itself tighter and tighter around us - where are they - these heroes. Apart froma few genuine people getting on with the struggle - they rest are fuckin whinging and moaning about how awful it is - participating in their own oppression - expecting again the middle classes to help them out. The state wil give you nothing but crumbs and that seems to be enough to keep you sitting on your arse whinging about everyne else and doing nothing yourself. Good luck to people who carry out direct action - an important thing I belive to rememeber is that mostly it lifts the spirit and most genuine people may not understand it all teh time but `are glad to see it happening.

Hi Doug,
I don't wish to take umbrage with you point by point, and somethings you have written are in fact honest and positive, which is a start, but some things I do wish to take up with you. A lot of 'direct action' is middle class, mostly because people with the resources to do what they wish, unlike most people who HAVE to work for a living and so on, can go off and participate. It's that simple.

"Would these so called class warriors like the middle classes coming into working class communities and taking up issues of poverty etc etc???" Not particularly, but I would like some acknowledgement that the world isn't just black and white, but really many different shades of grey!! In other words, engaging with one injustice, whilst selectively, almost wilfully, ignoring other injustices, is part of the problem. Attacking Blair for the war on Iraq is easy, anyone can do it, and of course we all have. Attacking him for allowing those with wealth and privilege, in Middle England, to continue in a privileged manner, is far more topical, and is what people are angry with him for, certainly in Britain. Attacking Iraq has been the worst thing any British government has done, since, when, I don't know. But we know this!!! Challenging unjust privilege in Britain is where its at, because to honest, it is local issues that generally affect most people. You may disagree with this, but that is up to you.

"But where are the class warriors, what are they doing - to fight against poverty, cops etc etc - the arms or the private and the state is wrapping itself tighter and tighter around us - where are they - these heroes. Apart froma few genuine people getting on with the struggle - they rest are fuckin whinging and moaning about how awful it is - participating in their own oppression - expecting again the middle classes to help them out."

I can't speak for anyone else, but this class warrior is trying to hold down a low paid job, keep my head down, pay off my student loan, and get a pay rise or a better paying job!!! We live in the 4th wealthiest country in the world, but that little ol' class system in place, means that someone will get a better job simply because of their social status, and nothing else, and someone else, because of their perceived low social status, will get a crappy job. That is reality in Britain. Storming castles, marching and et al, won't change that overnight. And, to be honest, the moneyed middle classes will talk about wars and GM etc till the cows come home, but not about the economic apartheid that exists in Britain and other wealthy countries, primarily BECAUSE they are the main beneficiaries of such division!! And having British people been invading castles in Wales for centuries anyway? I bet the Welsh are over the moon! (I am being a little tongue in cheek here!)

"Apart froma few genuine people getting on with the struggle"

What struggle? What exactly do you mean? Do you mean the self-appointed struggle that privileged lefties go on about in Oxford and Cambridge University, champagne and winebar socialism and the like? When was that ever more than a few privileged individuals feeling guilty because their parents or grandparents or family own factories or corporations and are ripping everybody off around the world and and in Britain etc? It is all far too smug and self-congratulatory, all too much like:'let them eat cake!' and so on. We know the state is getting more and more hardline, and that armsdeals and shady things are going on here there and everywhere, but who is benefiting from this???

"expecting again the middle classes to help them out." No, not a bit of it!! You have completely missed the point here! If the criticism serves any purpose here, it will be to point out that such activities are, at best, curious, and at worst, virtually self-serving. Anyone who criticises is seen as the enemy, and, hey-presto!, a community who are 'rebels' and the like. Not really! I don't want any middle class person to take on the role of self-appointed suffering martyr for me, or anybody else, thank you very much! Part of the problem IS the class system, this is what I am trying to say. Working class people have been demonised for centuries, and certainly within some middle class circles. Engaging with your own guilt is fine, but in the real world it changes nothing; people are still struggling away in low paid jobs, bad housing, limited life chances, limited educational opportunities and limited opportunities all around. One city is moneyed and over-privileged, another is poverty sticken, with low wage jobs and etc. Challenge the privilege, then it will be relevant. BUT, and here is the major problem, who is going to challenge their own privilege!!?? It seems like virtually no one. AND, here is another major point; what is injustice in Britain, passes for injustice everywhere else, including Iraq. Iraq is about rich Americans controlling everything, and making more and more, at the expense of lots of poor Iraqis. The Class System in Britain is about some people controlling everything, and some making wealth at the expense of the many. It is all the same. A privileged middle class person attacking the system is like a slave owner attacking the slave trade! It just won't happen, and seems curious when it does! If someone is genuine about fighting the system, let them take low paid jobs, so some poor person can get a better high paid one. And if a person is rich and concerned about the poor, let them give their fortune away, and genuinely help the disadvantaged get on, by paying for education and so on. Let them put their money where their mouth is! I hope this is food for thought. I DON'T want any well-to-do person, no matter how well meaning or clued up, invading castles or going on endless marches for me! Be honest about it, you are doing it to look cool, assuage guilt and etc. Challenge the class system, the North_South divide, your own very privilege, and then we can talk!

Again Timbo
Are the working class complete victims? - history doesn't tell us that - look at our forefathers amd mothers - fighting the cops and the powerful hand to hand. One of the problems with a lot of lefty working class people these days is they have got themseleves hooked on this pity me - social worker, psycholical bullshit - of how awful everything is.
DIRECT ACTION IS NOT A MIDDLE CLASS PASTIME
WHAT ABOUT RIOTS
WHAT ABOUT OCCUPATIONS
WHAT ABOUT STRIKES
ATTACKING MACHINARY ETC ETC ETC

Timbo (or whatever your name is and the others) you sound to me like you are victims - letting the middle class push you around and intimidate you. Are you waiting for the middle class to give you something are you expecting those in power to suddenly go ' Oh we've been so bad to you here is equality'. Every gain has to be fought and fought like fuck.
Do you think the poor of all teh other nations are sitting around
whinging and whining ' oh the rich are pushing us about, please stop it, pleeeeesssse'

Hi Doug, I certainly respect your sincerity and your plain speaking! That is what I am all about too. I won't disagree with what you have written, because I think we are coming from the same place, only we have different perspectives.

"Are the working class complete victims?"

In this day and age, no, the majority of working class people are not helpless victims, even though there are areas where people are treated appallingly, there is now work, no regeneration and things are bad all around; I could name a few places in Liverpool right off the top of my head that fit that bill, and there are loads of forgotten council estates all over Liverpool, and all other towns and cities in Britain as well, that are equally in every way oppressed and suffering. To say this is some plot, is overstretching it a bit; to say that poverty in a wealthy country should not exist, is perhaps closer to the truth. It is not that anyone should attack someone else for getting on, it is when those who have nice houses, nice educations, good jobs, wonderful lifestyles etc are telling other people to live in poverty and get on with it, well that is when hypocrisy rears its head.

Yes, there is a tendency for people who are poor and working class (even underclass) to wallow in poverty and misery, I know, I have done this myself before today. Sometimes, you have to reach out for the light, and be prepared to be positive, instead of depressingly negative. I get the drift from your passionate posts, that you are fed up with people being so negative and depressing all the time; that is a fair assessment. In my case, I am supremely positive, but also completely realistic; I believe this combination, realism and positivity, are the ingredients that will take anyone at all far, and any group of people where they wish to go. This and being truthful and honest, perhaps. If I was a complete cynic, I wouldn't leave the house, I wouldn't even reply to posts on this board! No, I am positive, but also a realist; that's what gets me through the day anyway.

"DIRECT ACTION IS NOT A MIDDLE CLASS PASTIME"

Well, I disagree with you somewhat. It's not solely a middle class pastime, nor solely a white only pastime, but it tends to be people who are more educated about politics, and certainly people who have the time to go on demo's and the like. Of course this could also include many people who are unemployed, as well as those who come from the families of the well off and wealthy. I am certain that many unemployed working class people are involved, and extremely radical politically; I was, and to a great extent, still am. I believe absolutely and rigidly in fairness and equality. It is why I tilt at middle clas people, who, on talking about challenging the establishment, seem never to challenge the divisions between the privileged and underprivileged here in Britain, but will rant on about GM, and poverty in the Third World, and Iraq, and so on, because it doesn't challenge their exalted positions. No one is saying a middle class person shouldn't aspire to a better life, it is merely that it isn't just the rest of the world that needs saving, and looking at, it is also Britain too. I am fighter, it is just that I belive that talking about class and deference, privilege and poverty, is something that many people find embarrassing, for many reasons, it is also the truth that when people debate what is usually kept silent, things begin to change, first in people's minds, and then in the way people relate to each other. I want to get you on my side, and want to get other working class people to challenge hypocrisy and injustice everywhere, even in their own very personal lives. We should question why for so long only the well off and the middle class are get all the good jobs, while we at the bottom fight for the scraps, and the low paid jobs.

"Do you think the poor of all teh other nations are sitting around
whinging and whining ' oh the rich are pushing us about, please stop it, pleeeeesssse'"

I don't know what the poor are doing in other countries, but I imagine that in the modern wealthy West, people are pretty much railing against poverty and injustice as we are here. My view is that we must talk about this, debate it, and keep on debating it.

By the way, my name is Tim, but I use the moniker Timbo on here, I just prefer to.