Hi Tan Sang,

you are disappointed with imc uk, you say that for you the reports on the newswire are about minor problems, compared with the situation in Burma. I would like to assure you that reports about the situation in Burma would be welcome on the newswire, especially if the writer makes sure that readers in the UK understand why this is relevant for them (British involvement, refugee presence...).

Indymedia is only a collaborative open publishing news resource - so I doubt it can change the situation in Burma. But we would be pleased if you would actively use it to at least make the situation more known.

1 of imc uk

Sure,

is there a specific action you are calling for?

A boycott of a corporation which invests in Burma?

A picket of the Burma Embassy?

A demand we can make on our government to stop collaborating with the repression?

A fundraising drive to help a resistance group within Burma?

An international brigade to join?

Even a meeting to go to?

Or are you just gonna sit there and moralise at us?

If you are really here to get solidarity for the struggle in Burma, you would know how to appeal for it like a proper activist, not a whining internet troll. sorry mate.

Have you not seen the stories on Indymedia of people campaigning for solidarity with the Palestinians? Or those defending refugees from racist attacks? or those fighting fascism? are you saying these are trivial issues? Or environmenta destruction, homelessness, workers rights? trivial?

And are you saying the police should be allowed beat up young people here for wanting to oragnise their own non-commercial cultural events?

You attack the minority of people here for campaigning on matters that are trivial compared with the struggle in Burma... what about the majority who just go complacently about their consumerism, shopping without campaigning on anything? No criticism of them? Or the media owners who push trivia everyday on the TV and newspapers? Not angry with them? No, lets get angry with some activists instead.

Sorry, but you've just done your cause no good.

Tell me, Tan Sang, what do you actually do about Burma? Are you here on a speaking tour? When are the dates? Surely your visit is to do somthing more vital than this miserable post on Indymedia?

See www.burmacampaign.org.uk to read more about the plight of the people in this former British colony, living under a brutal military dicatatorship which the British government and the EC still permit trade with.

>>especially if the writer makes sure that readers in the UK understand why this is relevant for them (British involvement, refugee presence...).

of course it is relevant for us. it is only a requirement of this site that a UK connection is made explicit.

perhaps, tan sang, you could post more reports on imcuk.

as for barry, you're shouting at the wrong person mate.

sucessful protest forces premier oil to pulls out of Burma
 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2002/09/41171.html

Premier Oil Get Out Of Burma
 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2002/05/31331.html

Get Premier Oil Out Of Burma!
 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2002/02/22316.html

Boycott Austrian Airlines (AUA) & Lauda Air
 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/04/63244.html

Premier Oil AGM Burma protest
 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2002/05/103721.html

Triumph closes factory in Burma!!!
 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2002/01/21228.html

CAMPAIGNERS TARGET B.A.T. OVER BURMA FACTORY
 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2002/11/47622.html

SAVE AUNG SAN SUU KYI AND TIN OO: REINVENTING BURMA
 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/06/72172.html

"Praise to the co-operative, flexible Burmese junta!"
 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2002/02/23803.html



global indymedia may have some article
 http://www.indymedia.org

or if you want to do a Burma indymedia check out the email discussions

Wow what a moving post, I had been sitting here with my sister talking about signing a petition calling for vegan options in our staff canteen when I read the post. We both feel a little ashamed that we were worrying about food when there are some in Burma who have far more important things to worry about. I looked at the website listed and have sent them an e-mail asking how I can help. I hope others do the same.

O and to Barry the troll and his stupid post why not do something to help rather than posting this crap ?

Hello Tan,

I share a lot of your concerns about how people present their politics in this counry. There is a very selfish, self-congratulatory, and romantised seam which spends it's time doing little more than taking drugs, partying, and having the odd scufle with the police, as if that represents a serious political path, or alternative for anyone. It doesn't. At best it's just people having a party. At worst it is the worst form of narcissism.

At the same time, a lot of the other police, media, and political suppression in this country, which may seem understandably trivial to you, is designed to prevent us from making it public that there is dissent in this country. We are largely excluded by the mainstream media, and routinely prevented from holding demonstrations on terms which the law is supposed to allow. More subtle maybe, and less dangerous to us as individuals, but it is part of the same conspiracy of enforced silence, and needs to be challenged.

Burma is a real cause, on which there is activism already.

But I'm with Barry-- this smells of troll

Thats why I stuck the following story up on the wire above this post.
Would be more positive to have started the whole thread with some call to action, rather than a guilt trip.

Still not happy with having all the rest of the stories, on Iraq, Palestine, Columbia, attacks on racial minorities here, etc called trivial.

fuckin vegans, yes, but the rest? i ask ya!

Wimbledon faces Burma Protests
Barry Kade, 23.06.2004 11:45

Clothes worn by elite international tennis superstars at Wimbledon are made in sweatshops under Burma's military dictatorship. Protesters will highlight this, and have launched a boycott of sportswear company Sergio Tacchini.

Wimbledon faces Burma Protests
22 Jun 2004

Goran Ivanisivic and Juan Carlos Ferrero have been called on to join boycott of Sergio Tacchini until they stop manufacturing clothes in Burma.

Campaigners promise protests at Centre Court if either player reaches final wearing Sergio Tacchini sportswear.

The Burma Campaign UK today launched a boycott of Sergio Tacchini, the Italian sportswear company, after receiving evidence that it manufactures clothes in military-run Burma. Tennis stars Goran Ivanisivic and Juan Carlos Ferrero are both sponsored by Sergio Tacchini.

“We are sure that once Goran Ivanisivic and Juan Carlos Ferrero find out that Sergio Tacchini are in Burma they will be as shocked as we are,” said Mark Farmaner, Campaigns Officer at Burma Campaign UK. “We hope that they will use their influence to get Sergio Tacchini to pull out of Burma.”

Clothing exports are a major source of revenue for Burma’s military dictatorship. Companies are attracted by wages as low as 5p an hour. A factory employee working 60 hours a week could earn just £3. This is below the United Nations definition of an extreme poverty income. British Prime Minister Tony Blair has called on companies not to trade with Burma.

“The regime in Burma is notorious for imprisoning and torturing political opponents, persecuting ethnic minorities, and using rape as a weapon of war,” said Mark Farmaner. “By manufacturing in Burma Sergio Tacchini are funding that regime.” Burma’s dictatorship spends half of its income on the military, and just 19p per person per year on health.

Last year two other Italian sportswear companies, Kappa and Lotto, pulled out of Burma following boycott campaigns. Most clothing companies and retailers refuse to source clothing from Burma because of human rights concerns. They include ADIDAS, Calvin Klein, Nike, Gap, Reebok, Puma, Tesco, M&S and over 100 others.




Homepage:  http://www.burmacampaign.org.uk/pm/weblog.php?id=P122

yeah, burma is one of the key issues of the moment, good luck to anyone doing anything...wondering why veganism is trivial tho?? meat & diary industry involves torture suffering & murder on a scale far greater than the rest of the worlds problems put together...

-Crammed together, animals must stand in their own excrement while exposed to extreme weather in open trucks, sometimes freezing to the trailer. These conditions can result in “downers”—animals too sick or weak to walk, even when shocked with electric prods or beaten. Downers are dragged by chains to slaughter or to “dead piles” where they are left to die-

"meat & diary industry involves torture suffering & murder on a scale far greater than the rest of the worlds problems put together... "


I think this is an example of what Tan was trying to make clear. To us issues like veganism, squats, protests outside Marks and Spencers seem important. To those living in Burma they are inconsequential fluff.

We face police harrasement and attempts to stop us protesting but let's be honest we're not going to get shot in Oxford High Street. We are used to consider protest in terms of consumer boycotts, marches, letter writing campaigns, public meetings. For Tan this is nothing, this in terms of Burma and his (or her) experiences achieves nothing. Reading between the lines I think this post is a call for people to get involved in direct action in Burma, military action. Real fighting against a regime that is not hurt by the actions of people like us.

Yup. I'm sure the repression in Burma, or in many other places for that matter, is considerably worse than the police or government action in the UK. I doubt anyone would be daft enough to argue otherwise.

Nevertheless, I consider Tan Sang's comment highly offensive. Tan Sang calls for me to drop my 'trivial problems' and basically set about overthrowing the Burmese regime. Quite what is required from me is unclear, nevertheless the implication is that as long as I am not overthrowing or have as yet failed to overthrow the Burmese regime, I should hang my little head in shame, and, perhaps, just give up activism and go shopping instead.

What the blazes does Tan Sang want me to do and how dare (s)he claim my concerns are 'trivial'? (S)he knows jack-shit about who I am, what I am doing and what my concerns are. I am sure that if some positive suggestion was put forward regarding the proposed social revolution in Burma, lots of us selfish buggers would offer what help and resources we sensibly can. Indeed, the networks and infrastructure created by the grassroots movement, the centre in fact of many of our trivial concerns, is actually pretty damn useful when it comes to raising funds, publicising events or housing speaker meetings.

"Reasonable people can disagree dramatically, even with everyone broadly sharing the same progressive values. People should follow the course that seems best to them, in light of their expectations, and let others do likewise (everyone is going to do just that anyhow, in case anyone has any doubts) and let practice reveal outcomes... Meanwhile, let's not overly aggravate one another and the process itself, with endless vituperative debate that isn't going to raise consciousness, build movement organization, win any office, or propel a better electoral outcome. Present our views compellingly, and even passionately -- of course, especially when they have broader lessons, but let's not question the integrity and motives of those who see tactical matters differently. "

Words of wisdom, i think.

My deepest apologies if my comments caused offence to people. I wrote when I was angry at what I had read over the last few days.

I am sorry that I placed my pleas on Indymedia. It was obviously not the correct place for them.

I will return to Burma in a week and inform my comrades of what I found.

If you want us to take an interest in your issues then its also important that you respect the issues that affect us, from destruction of the environment to workers rights, to holding cultural events. If you can't respect our struggles then you can hardly expect us to respect yours.

I personally feel they might be connected in loads of ways, as we oppose authoritarianism, oppression etc, but just on a different scale. And our country is fully capable of bombing another countries to bits so our anti-war struggle isn't a struggle in a tea-cup, its of world-wide significance.

Write up some stuff, drum up some interest, use IMC properly and tell us what the score is!

In 2003 in the UK 104 people died in police custody or via accidents in police car chases. 6,000 police officers in the UK are trained to use guns against the civilian population. In the UK refugees are held in detention centres/prisons. 'Civil liberties' are under attack constantly via legislation, media as propaganda, control through fear. People die through lack of care in prison. Poverty disables and kills.

This is no paradise.

Oppression in the UK is wider than any particular issue at any one time. Its too easy to attack people over specific issues (such as free parties, veganism etc) as irrelevant. Nothing is irrelevant. Its all part of the same shit.

Every respect to people fighting hideous oppression in Burma against terrible odds but its not relative freedoms (or not) in one country v death squads in a nother.

Oppression is global.

The animals that suffer misery and deprivation and brutal death in factory farms or are held hostage being tortured to death in vivisection laboratories are worth fighting for. They feel misery, suffering and pain.

Vegetarians/vegans are fighting for their liberation from their living hell. A cause which is every bit as important as the plight of suffering human beings.


Good luck with the campaign to liberate the Burmese people, but please don't come on IMC and tell others what to do or think, or else people might not take any notice of what you are saying once you have got their backs up.

6,000 police officers in Uk trained to use guns against civilians.
Endless attacks on 'civil liberties' through legislation, media - control through fear (including attacks on free parties)
104 people dead in police custody in 2003 or via accidents with police cars
death in prison rising
corporate controlled poisons we eat..
refugees held in detention centres/prisons
poverty disables and kills over and over again....

the UK is no paradise

oppression is global.

Sorry Tan, but as you see Indymedia are a bunch of carrot-crunching vegan oxbridge puffs who wouldn't ever want to put themselves out. Save all the fluffy bunnies!

Where else have you been asking for help regarding Burma during this trip to the UK? It seems this is important for you so surely you must have been in contact with more organisations - whom? Did you give them more information on how to help Burma? You need to be clear please - becouse sites like this are open for all so many times there are just "elements" out there that enjoys submitting things just to see what reactions there will be. Now you know so please let us know more about how we can help.

Peace/Nadia

>You live in luxury in this country, you can write to newspapers, make speeches, argue with police and soldiers and the worse that might happen is you will be arrested and receive a fine or short prison time.

apart from the fiction of being burmese, this post could have been written by blunkett or his american chums. resisting domestic oppression - as we still engage with the struggles of far away places - is the first step to helping not just ourselves but the people of burma and elsewhere. is there domestic oppression? ask yourself about the apologetics of the mainstream media in its coverage of iraq and consider the consequences of that. which voices were suppressed to achieve this fake concensus?

I'd rather be 'carrot crunchin' than droppin bombs on people, ordering people around,oppressing people or beating up coloured people any day!!

U wanna try munchin some carrots ya homophobe. That may help you to stop talking shit if your mouths full of something else eh? ;)

Byeeee

My friend Tan Sang, if you are genuinely an activist here on a solidarity mission from Burma, then my deepest, most humble apologies are owed to you. The struggle of the oppressed people of Burma against their military dictators and global capital will always deserved our fullest support.

And obviously our movements here in the UK cannot expect any respect from the militants of the Burmese movements untill we have built a solidarity movement here in th UK at least on the scale we did with the Anti-Aparthied mopvement in the 1980's.

But we are conversing in the disembodied world of the internet. It is not like speaking face to face. Here it is easy for people to speak through all sorts of persona's that are not their own. This makes it perfect for all sorts of subterfuge.

Someone may steal the voice of the oppressed Burmese and use it for different end in the echoing, anonymous virtual spaces such as these. Once stolen, your voice may be wielded to demoralise what exists of the tiny and fragmentary anti-capitalist activist movement here. There are are sorts of malicious right wing individuals who both hate indymedia and care nothing for the struggles of the oppressed peoples of Burma who would speak in such a fashion.

It is also possible, in this disembodied internet world, to say things in a manner more harsh or criticaly than one would use face to face. I am certainly guilty of that. Perhaps this is why your initial plea here on indymedia did not sound to me like an appeal for solidarity.

In the 1980's, those of us in the Anti-Aparthied movement in the UK used to organise speaking tours of exiled South African activists. These activists had also faced total state repression, murder, torture, imprisonment, shooting on demonstratons...I need not elaborate further.

Never once did I hear one of these activists dismiss the struggles in the UK as trivial, -they always expressed solidarity. The politics were always clear. The ANC wasn't demanding our guilt, or even sympathy. They were demanding our solidarity. They didnt want our charity, but rather needed mutual support in a common struggle against capitalism, racism and imperialism.

At that time the main struggles in the UK was the 1984-85 miners strike and the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. Maybe the struggles of today are more trivial? Or the activists? I don't really think so. Today I know many earnest and dedicated young activists, committing their lives to social change.

Now we need a campaign on that scale over Burma. Aung San Suu Kyi's name must be made as famous as Mandela's. Burma is one of the last great dictatorhips propped up by global capital. We have seen the fall of globally notorious dictatorhips in South Africa, South Korea, Indonesia, East Timor, South America. We have campaigned in solidarity with these movements. Now we must do the same in the cases of Burma, Palestine, Tibet, Columbia.

But the best way to do this is to connect these movements to the domestic social struggles here. This must be done on the basis of mutual respect for each others struggles. In the end, the global octopus of capitalism must also be fought in its flabby centres, in Europe, the UK, the USA. And therefore the social struggles of the people here in the UK, must be nurtured, strengthened, and politicised, so they can act in the interests of global justice.

So if anyone reading this is really "reporting back" to "comrades in Burma", a) I hope they base their information on somthing more substantial than a daily browse on Indymedia,

and b) tell them this:

Britain is a country that has feasted on the robbery of the world over many centuries. Its rulers are murderers driven by greed.

Its people do not, in the main, suffer from bullets or genocide. We are mainly caught up in working longer hours in mundane jobs, virtually a new form of indentured labour to building societies and banks, slaves to debt and mortgages, with £100,000 needed for the cheapest house, student debts, pension problems.

While we are kept on this treadmill, we are fed a diet of consumerism and mind numbing trivial entertainment, reality TV, sport, nationalism, the cross of st george and a diet of racism against asylum seekers. Their rulers try to numb us to the global whirlwind of oppression needed to prop up this bloody status quo.

But there are many millions who care. Millions of people believe that human needs should come before corporate profit and greed. And they can be connected to the struggles around the world. This will not be easy. But it is the only way any of us can survive, ultimately.

Friends the question has generated great comment.To understand some of the history and the problems read George Orwells book or vist the site.
David Blunkcrap

Tyranny begins with trivial things like police banning parties, but ends in torture for dissent, like Burma. We must resist the oppressors at every level, across the globe.

Info is a weapon
 http://www.george-orwell.org/Burmese_Days/

David Blunkcrap

oh dear. Why oh why do we have to get so defensive and come across as arrogant when someone questions what we're doing (or not doing!)? Reread some of your posts above, and the original one, and spot the difference in tone.
It started with what I read as a genuine heart-felt plea (the guilt-trip is in your head Barry & others). Instead of being met with understanding and explanations, it was met with self-defensive shite. Fancy addressing someone who's away from their country where dissent can mean death, where friends and family are tortured and murdered, and telling them they should be a "proper activist"!! Sure, everything is relative, and I am too busy already with what I am doing locally to also campaign in solidarity with Burma; sure, the issues here are important for us who live here, whether they have a global solidarity link or not - but that doesn't mean I have to attack someone who's questioning things! When I've come back from working in Bosnia or Palestine, yes, the concerns of people here that I usually work on seem so fucking trivial it's amazing, campaigners so complacent and shirking responsibility for their impacts, compared to what I've experienced in those places. That feeling is only after weeks/years, and not a lifetime when I'm actually from that place! So just stop yourselves from knee-jerk replying to posts, and actually imagine yourself in someone else's position.
Again, when I've been living abroad on the continent, and I've come across other British activists (such as at the first PGA meeting in Geneva), many come across as so arrogant, so unwilling to listen, unable to understand differences in activism, context, effect - it has just felt like the latest export of a dying Empire. So what a shit message some of us have given someone to report back to their friends and colleagues in Burma, but maybe an accurate one.
In terms of what's an activist, or whether even to use that term, 'cos of the effect it has on the whole process we're involved with, read "Giving up Activism" reprinted in 'Do or Die'  http://www.eco-action.org/dod/no9/activism.htm
In solidarity with those at home and abroad, Brit

Well said Brit !

My sister and I read the original post and we were moved enough to contact one of the Burma information sites. Since then I have made arrangements to attend a meeting and learn more.

I was not surprised to see the reactions of others here. The poster who demanded that Tan "respect us" before he was prepared to help just left me open mouthed. To the individual who placed a picture of dead cattle in support of Veganism - well done that must have been a great comfort to someone who comes from a country with widespread starvation.

A chance existed here to provide help - we blew it.