Oh dear, well this one is better, it gives the low down on each candidate so people can decide for themselves:

Muslim Election Guide

 http://www.inminds.co.uk/election-guide-june10-2004.html

Calm down, BNP troll. That's how democracy works. People "tell" you who to vote for (this is called electioneering) and then voters go and make up their own minds based on a) their own opinions/prejudices and b) what they have heard

I understand that the far right find the whole "democracy" thing a little baffling, so I'll be hanging around for a while in case you need anything else clearing up.

PS - don't you think its a little patronising to imply that all Muslims will read one press release and then march out like a bunch of mindless zombies and do what they are told?

They are people too, you know. And clearly a damn sight better informed than you are.

The Muslim Council like the Genral Synod and the Catholic Association of Great Britain all share a common fear - education.

Religion is founded on ignorance and destroyed by education. We have heard this week yet another call for an extension of the religious schools funding scheme to be extended to the Islamic faith and for one simple reason. Islamic leaders are having to deal with what the Christian and Jewish faiths have been seeing for the past 50 years. Lowering of attendence and a general drift away from religion.

Let us hope the young of Britain continue to reject all religion and embrace self worth, respect for each other and their world.

This is yet more evidence of why postal voting is an incredibly bad idea.

Family members will no longer have the temporary privacy of the voting booth to cast their vote. Instead, Dad will be watching over the shoulder of everyone in the house of voting age, making sure they Vote The Right Way.

why attack the muslims, the biggest fundamentalist live in the white house and downing st. these jesus freaks take us to war ,bomb the shit out poor afgans and iraqs and then go on moralising about the evil of islam.

all organisations tell how people should vote. if u are in a trade union-vote labour, if u live in a middle class village the vicar will tell u to vote tory.if u read the guardian vote lib or labour. if u belong to the CBI vote tory

if u belong to the womens institute, tory. if u belong to green peace vote green, if u live welsh speaking wales vote plaid cymru -.if u belong to the hunter group vote tory. if u live in ulster vote UUP.ect ect ect

they could all be accused of being gormless zombies. all groups will have political affilations, they donate money to parties or organisation which best represents them , its quite natural.

this is just racist shit.

Why do they recommend voting Ken Livingstone, and Labour?

In response to someone's comment that - "don't you think its a little patronising to imply that all Muslims will read one press release and then march out like a bunch of mindless zombies and do what they are told?"

Perhaps not quite as patronizing as the MAB who had the presumption to issue the call in the first place. Weren't they actually the first to imply that all Muslims would vote as one, or were they just taking the mickey?

The Christian Institute is also in the habit of telling their constituents how to vote. The practice should be condemned, not defended. When religious groups issue instructions it is with the implied authority of God which puts the faithful in a difficult position and is not comparable with unctuous politicians shaking hands and kissing babies.

It is also a very weak argument to say that X does something far worse therefore Y should not be criticized for anything. Democrats have to stand up for democratic values everywhere and at all times, otherwise what's the point?

Apparently there were a bunch of muslims tannoying it up around our neck of the woods today. They were calling for all muslims not to vote. Following the letter of the qu'rn it is, according to them, wrong to vote for your enemy!
not that i'm particularly interested in who votes and why. but how many don't will prove interesting and the test for revolutionaries should surely be what can fill this void that is evolving, ie. how to empower people to go further and make decisions for themselves?

Well I dunno about you lot but it looks to me like the BNP trolls are starting to get more sofisticated with their arguments??!!

If not, then if I was a Muslim reading this wire I would quite frankly think that the IMCUK was run by the UK Independence Party!! I think our arguments about the Muslims have gone so far off the rails that we can't even distinguish between BNP trolls and genuinely confused people anymore!! Get the fuck off your arses and go out and talk to Muslims about how WE can take this sad movement of ours forward for fucks sake!

Stop moralising and imitating BNP trolls!! (I would hate to be an IMC adminner now man!! -is it a troll or not??)

This is only one example of an influential religious group telling members "this is how you must vote if you want to keep on belonging fully to the group".

The Catholic church in the US is notorious for this, and they are only slightly less blatant about it here. First some US bishops started saying "we will excommunicate any politicians who favour abortion in any circumstances, favour recognition of permanent gay relationships or gay marriage, favour euthanasia, favour stem cell research, etc. In any circumstances, full stop, no exceptions." So if a candidate said "I would allow abortions in certain cases of rape, or this that or the other exceptional condition", that's that, they're excommunicated.

Now at least one US bishop, in Denver, has gone further and said "you will be out of communion with the Catholic church if you even VOTE for one of these. You will have to go to confession, and repent of your sin to be admitted back to communion."
 http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~64~2147524,00.html

So let's say some voter in the US believes that fewer people overall would be murdered by, say, a Ralph Nader govt, as he is fully for pulling US troops out of Iraq, against the death penalty, etc, but Ralph doesn't believe in legislating against abortion or gay marriage ("I'm not interested in gonadal politics", says Ralph).
If that person is a Catholic in Denver, and believes they should vote for the President who will have the fewest people murdered, they're out of luck: they MUST vote for the evil fucker Dubya, who just loves the death penalty and cluster-bombing civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, but hates abortion and gay marriage. Or else be excommunicated, or simply vote for no-one at all.

What the MAB are doing here is exactly the same thing: someone claiming to be The Expert On God, telling people how to vote. It's a disgusting abuse of power.

And it's nothing to with any one race or group or religion, either: just about every religion I can think of has got people like this wielding their spiritual power like a giant gun to the head.

...why the fuck are you going out of your way to tell a bunch of essentially white guys here about how evil the MAB are??? Why aren't you out talking to Muslims about this instead?? It's fucking great innit, a bunch of dumb white middle class blokes discussing how evil Islam is?? For fucks sake! Have you ever been in a Mosque and had some discussion about this stuff? with Muslims? Have you ever had to live in any of those god awfull rundown shithole estates where most British Muslims are forced to live?? Have you ever had to sit and watch your whole village get buldozed by the Isreali army while soldiers rape your daughters?? Have you ever had to run in fear while US planes carpet bomb your city because you got some dodgy leader, then have to dig whats left of your kids out of whats left of your house?? Just because, apparently you don't apreciate democracy?? No?? Well how the hell can you expect to even begin to understand what Muslims are going through?? Or why they turn to Allah for salvation?? The Muslims get shit everywhere off everyone!! The sooner we fucking understand this the sooner we can even begin to understand how we can work together with Muslims. And you wonder why the Islamic clerics have such an influence on Muslims?? Well, If I was a Muslim in the UK I would much rather go down the Mosque and listen to the Imam, than listen to some self-righteous white middle class dork moralising about how evil Islam is. Wouldn't you?? For fuck's sake there's a world out there!! Be part of it!! And how the hell can we sit here moralising to Muslims about "Democracy"?? After what "we" did in Iraq. Bush and Blair have made a mockery of democracy right under the noses of everybody!! and well ...they just plain got away with it!! Democracy is a sham!! Praise Allah!

I read the thread and couldn't be arsed to reply until we know whether we are dealing with BNP trolls or genuine but very confused IMCers.

"...why the fuck are you going out of your way to tell a bunch of essentially white guys here about how evil the MAB are???"

They're not evil. They're just doing something wrong by issuing voting guidelines. So are lots of other religious groups. Go back and read what I wrote.

"Why aren't you out talking to Muslims about this instead??"

I am.

"It's fucking great innit, a bunch of dumb white middle class blokes discussing how evil Islam is??"

I'm not middle class, and I'm not dumb, and I'm not saying Islam's "evil". Put your preconceptions aside for a moment.

"For fucks sake! Have you ever been in a Mosque and had some discussion about this stuff?"

Yes.

"with Muslims?"

Yes. That's generally who you'll find in a mosque. :) But I can engage with Muslims, Christians, Jews etc. every day. I don't need to visit a mosque or a synagogue or a church to do that. Sounds like that's the only contact you've had with Muslims, is in a mosque. That might explain your sympathy for the MAB.

"Have you ever had to live in any of those god awfull rundown shithole estates where most British Muslims are forced to live??"

Yes. For many years.

"Have you ever had to sit and watch your whole village get buldozed by the Isreali army while soldiers rape your daughters??

Lots of people from my ethnic group getting killed and raped at the moment too pal. Not sure what either's got to do with criticising a British religious group for advising people here how to vote.

"Have you ever had to run in fear while US planes carpet bomb your city because you got some dodgy leader, then have to dig whats left of your kids out of whats left of your house??"
(and a few more examples in similar vein)

see above.

"Well, If I was a Muslim in the UK I would much rather go down the Mosque and listen to the Imam, than listen to some self-righteous white middle class dork moralising about how evil Islam is. Wouldn't you?"

Well if you were a Catholic in the UK would you rather go down to Mass and listen to the Priest, than listen to some self-righteous (insert random race here) middle class dork moralising about how evil Catholicism is. Wouldn't you?
On the other hand, maybe both are wrong. And maybe you're the middle-class "Respect" dork, who's willing to defend reactionary right-wing groups like the MAB, so long as they're allied to your party, and advising people to vote for your party. Could be, yes. And maybe, like the SWP were defending the Ayatollahs in Iran a few years back, it's temporary, and you'll give it all up as soon as it's no longer of use to you.

"For fuck's sake there's a world out there!! Be part of it!!"

Yes!!!!!! Vote Respect!!!!!! Be part of the world out there!!!!!!
Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!

"And how the hell can we sit here moralising to Muslims about "Democracy"??"

It's a particularly subtle, nasty sort of racism that thinks Muslims can't discuss democracy with non-Muslims.

"After what "we" did in Iraq."

Who's this "we"? Does Blair speak for you?

"Bush and Blair have made a mockery of democracy right under the noses of everybody!!"

So we should applaud some group of right-wing religious bullies when they also behave anti-democratically, because they happen to be Muslim? Fuck that for a start.

is dont collude any more in this elective dictatorship fraud
Blunkett=BNP=EU=Look at the Greens in office=Galloway=Livingstone=Rhodes=Stanley=SWP Respect=Skull and Bones alternatives
Promote voter apathy and withdrawal from participation
This is of no circumstance
Do nothing to legitamize this mass deceipt
Rather plan out your mode of counter-attack

If you say that critisizing the MAB is an attack on ALL Muslims and on Islam, then you must believe that the MAB legitimately speak for Islam and all Muslims.

Would you say that condemning Al-Muhajiroun's policies is also an attack on all Muslims and on Islam?

IF NOT: how did you decide that the MAB is representative of all Muslims and Islam but not Al-Muhajiroun?

IF SO: have you decided that Muslim organizaions should never be criticized for anything?

Spanner is spot on. What is really racist is to see Muslims as an "ethnic collective" represented through a single body rather than as individual people capable of making up their own minds. It is also a type of racism to say that you will support the MAB no matter what they say or do or believe just because they are a Muslim organization.

...or the SWP, or any of the other familliar Nick Cohen mantras!

Firstly "Spanner", which "ethnic group" do you belong to and which "run-down shithole of an estate" do you live in?? There could be some genuine confusion here, but you can see the point about sounding like a slightly more sofisticated version of Killroy-Silk, to Muslims?? I do think MAB are a genuine part of our ant-war movement despite, holding reactionary ideas. I certainly think the NOW is the time we should be attempting to build bridges with Muslim (including all these "reactionary" Muslim organisations), rather than going out of our way to drive them away from us. A bit of creative tactics, you know??

No. Criticism of the MAB is not an attack on all Muslims, but they are the MUSLIM Association of Britain and, most Muslims will see this as an attack on them. Even if they don't then i'm sure MAB will turn it this way, especially if we don't work with them. MAB are Islamic and do preach some reactionary ideas, but come on!! They were a very important part of the anti-war movement and ARE still part of this movement!! So, this provides other groups (representing whoever??), with an opertunity to work WITH them, and at least try and break down some of these (we think "reactionary") ideas. I'm sorry, but we aint gonna do this simply by lecturing to them about how they are "undemocratic" (leave all this shit for Nick Cohen!!), especially at a time when our wonderfull "democracy" as failled us all miserably!!

"Criticism of the MAB is not an attack on all Muslims, but they are the MUSLIM Association of Britain and, most Muslims will see this as an attack on them."

It amazes me how these arrogant bloody Trots can stand there and proclaim that they have some special insight into the will of "most Muslims" in advance.

It reminds me of Birmingham City Council, a few years back, when they decided it would be somehow "racist" to call the December-January holiday season "Christmas". So they had a meeting, and decided to call it "Winterval", as in "Winter Holiday Interval".

"Winterval"! Christ on a bike! You couldn't make it up!

They then got an almighty fucking earful from a load of Muslims/Sikhs/Jews/etc in public, and looked like complete fucking idiots.

"MAB are Islamic and do preach some reactionary ideas, but come on!! They were a very important part of the anti-war movement and ARE still part of this movement!!"

The SWP and its hangers-on said exactly the same thing about the Ayatollahs, and Saddam Hussein, and the extreme-right Serbian nationalists: 'Come on! They're not THAT bad! If they're against the war then we should work with them!'

You people really are your own worst enemies, spouting this shit about an organisation that opposes every single thing you supposedly stand for, apart from your anti-war activities.

But in five years time, when you've changed your minds again, we will still remember.

Andy S, what do you think of Al-Muhajiroun and their stand on democracy and the elections. They are also anti the Iraq war.

So leave it out!! What is it with people here and "Trots"?? Is anyone that criticises YOU simply discarded as a "Trot"??

Spanner: Is your real name Nick Cohen by any chance?? You appear to be repeating all his mantras?? Actually, he is a real spanner so maybe you got it right??

...so, which "ethnic group" do you belong to who are being "raped and killed at the moment"?? Simple question??

As for the "Al-Muhajiroun". Never heard of them mate?? Didn't see them on the anti-war demos I went on??

"As for the "Al-Muhajiroun". Never heard of them mate?? Didn't see them on the anti-war demos I went on??"

Then you must not have been at the big 2 million-strong antiwar march, because at Hyde Park al-Muhajiroun were all over the gates, and working the crowd listening to the speeches, handing out leaflets on their brand of Islam. As I look middle eastern, they kept walking up to me in the crowd, asking if I was Muslim, trying to recruit me, handing me a very expensive-looking pack of info in a clear plastic sleeve with an interactive CD, loads of glossies about their sect, etc. On the way out of the park I finally I took one, leafed through it, and when I realised what I was looking at, stuffed it straight in the nearest bin.

And you must never watch the BBC news either, since they have been mentioned many times for their dodgy recruiting activities in the UK. They're growing very quickly.

I've seen them at just about all the big demos in the past few years. Odd that you keep managing to miss them.

 http://www.muhajiroun.com/

Wasn't at Hyde Park as I was in Aberdeen then (attended local stuff). Been in Italy for the last year so don't see much of the beeb. Don't trust very much of what they say anyway

MAB is a tiny organisation, not a mainstream one, affiliated to the Muslim Brotherhood, which was modelled on fascist Italy and Nazi Germany, is affiliated to Hamas, etc. They are Islamic Fundamentalists. Islam is a fucking awful religion just like Christianity. Jihad, according to the Saudi government in 1981, is when the islamic countries unite to try and destroy Israel.

Oh and btw spanner, the Serbs were never bad guys, that was just government propaganda which chomsky etc dutifully repeated. The KLA, the Croat nationalists (led by a holocaust denier), the Bosnia islamists were all undemocratic fascists, who openly modelled themselves on and admired the WW2 fascists in their areas (in fact the Bosnia islamist leader WAS a fascist during his youth, and helped organise SS divisions), who committed a genocide against the Serbs. Milosevic was a leftist and the army and police in Kosovo were fighting NATO-backed fascist terrorists to protect pro-Yugoslav Albanians (at least 30,000 of em in a pro-Yugoslav Albanian political party), Roma, Serbs, Gorani, Turks, etc. The KLA ethnically cleansed 350,000 Serbs, Roma, Jews, etc. The army was under strict orders even to risk taking casualties or let the terrorists escape rather than risk civilian losses (the KLA used them as human shields), and arrested several hundred ppl for crimes committed in the lawlessness.