Indymedia Ireland is doing a great job reporting about what's happening in Dublin right now. For example, see today's feature:
 http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=64681

It would be great if the Irish Collective had the resources to provide a safe space for all the activists who are presently in Dublin. Looking at their website, it seems they have focussed on indymedia work in the run-up for mayday, see for example their media festival which provided media training for anyone.

imho, alternative media work is a crucial part of any protest. People who are not there need to know what is happening, and their international support might be needed at some point. So: thumbs up, imc ireland!

Why should IMC Dublin be expected to do this. They probably have their hands full just trying to report the events without having to babysit activists. You make it sound like IMC Dublin is the only group able to organise this sort of thing in Dublin, or have you just got a grudge against them?

Not knowing the characters in Dublin I have no idea of their motivations. I suppose they feel thay are doing the right thing, and I don't want to criticise people personally, but sometimes there is a bottome line.

I know that the IMC people feel that it is really important to give unbiased news but...

during the week the gards have cracked down severly on the protestors. Three people already arrested with draconian bail conditions. Those conditions are scaring the shit out of other internationals. there comes a time when people need to show solidarity. From what i hear, people have asked if the IMC can be used as a centre for people to come to, to get info. Just so that people don't get lost, young women aren't wandering around on their own not knowing what to do etc.

I am not suggesting that IMC has to do everything, accepted it is also down to other groups to organise things too. But IMC do need to think whose side they are on. In the UK we have many arguements with 'mainstream journos' about the fact that their news story is more important than the politics. If IMC want to be mainstream thats up to them, no criticisms there, just we need to know that.

At this moment in time, all the protestors have been told that they cannot use the IMC place because IMC are performing a session with the main stream media! I know it is up to IMC dublin on how they organise themselves, but with several hundred internationals trying to support THEIR civil rights, I feel its a bit rich that they tell them to sod of so they can talk to the press.

In whose name are they talking ot the mainstream, definatley not in CAN's name, and without the protestors the IMC network is nothing.

B

"At this moment in time, all the protestors have been told that they cannot use the IMC place because IMC are performing a session with the main stream media! I know it is up to IMC dublin on how they organise themselves, but with several hundred internationals trying to support THEIR civil rights, I feel its a bit rich that they tell them to sod of so they can talk to the press."

I think that the irish IMC has got its values confused. The idea that they are talking to the mainstream media should at the least be questioned. I thought one of the main motivations behind the IMC sites were to support news and activities that the mainstream do not report upon. Surely the responsibility has to be with the people who make the news for the sites to report? and not some media session where people pat each other on the back congratulate themselves for being radical and massage each others egos?

Just want to clarify a point. I don't want my comments to be confused with me asking for IMC to do anything unlawful. I realise that for IMC to exist certain compromises need to be made.

In Genoa the cabinieri smashed up the IMC place, and almost killed one of the IMC people. The 'public' strength of the IMC arguements against this attrocity was that the school was lawful. I truly believe that in the UK (sorry not sure about the situation in Eire so don't feel comfortable commenting) the police use more subtle forms of intimidation - planning laws, licencing laws, press passes etc.

If it comes to the point where people are asking to perform lawful duties (such as using the IMC place as a contact/info point), but people are fearful of a repression in planning permission, then that needs to be questioned.

I am not in Dublin, so the accounts I am geting are second and third hand. I usually hate crticisms via the web because it is very easy to be negative, and very difficult to be positive. But I do feel debate ought to be had, because if IMC continue to try and impartially publish at 'getherings' then sooner or later pressure will be brought to bear, as in Genoa.

B

Interesting post from an outsiders perspective on the Irish free software list:

"Called in last night. The place had gone a bit crazy with loads of continental protesters milling around. There seemed to be a little ambiguity over whether it should be a protest centre or a media centre."

 http://mail.fsfeurope.org/pipermail/fsfe-ie/2004-April/000951.html

I think today things got better with people coming togeather and things shaping up and indymedia ireland taking on role people hoped it would forfill. The centre is now open more, a good meal was cooked, so people could use raw stuff they had bought.
Political discussions are happening as people face fears over repression.

An independent media center is not the same thing as a convergence center. The Irish IMC crew worked very hard with others to get an IMC Center operational to disseminate independent Media. They worked with a group called Community Media Network who very kindly lent the building despite all sorts of misgivings.

Now, while sympathy for homeless protestors in a scary foreign city is right, it's not right to suggest that the IMC _has_ to allow those people to sleep there. You can see the obvious problems with the cops using it as an excuse to shut down the only indpendent news source.

Cop yourselves on.

how helpful - seeing as it turns out that is the only space open to protesters with a welcome in Dublin. It is on loan to IMC.ie for a period with strict preconditions which we as a collective agreed to. Just because some abuse that and against the wishes of those who set it up want to turn it by force of numbers and through a cooler than thou know it all attitude into a handy crash space because the people who invited them made a mess of arrangements smacks of an anarcho-imperialist mindset. Anarcho-baby tantrum is how I would describe above. Why should fuck up ongoing relationships with other groups just because visitors have not been sorted by those they have been dealing with and want to just take over the only open space that exixts. The Irish do not like arrogant people with english accents especially when the lie about the facts.

The centre had been booked for weeks for today to be an opportunity for any groups that wanted to to hold press conferences. Most involved did. The UK brigade chose not to and that is their right but dictating to others and running down the only irish media outlet that is full square behind the protests is just stupid fucking arrogance.

first sentence of the report which begins this thread is a straightforward disinformation lie

ok look here's wots been going down...

the squat that was to be used as accomodation space was raided - 3 uk folks nicked and bail set at stupid high level - they may be inside until 6th may - another was deported. squatting here in ireland is a fucking arrestable offence under their public order act!

as such a lot of people came to the Indymedia / CMN Centre yesterday

CMN = Community Media Network

The building is theirs, and they have worked with IMC ireland to put on a week of events, not only exhibitions, but videos, cafe, and workshops.

So a load of people arrive and say that they want to stay and sleep at this building.

An arguement / heated debate ensues...

People expect the indymedia people to turn their building into accomodation space, but the CMN people who are based in the building are quite rightly worried that if the indymedia festival centre becomes a de facto accomodation / convergence space then they could lose their offices and building in a police action. You see the building is not a squat under the full control of indymedia people... but someone's offices who have donated the use of them and worked together with imc people to provide the space - but only for certain activities.

So a process of coping with the new situations had to be entered into. There is no grounds for saying indymedia turns its back on the movement! Indymedia is not the Dublin Grassroots Network who have organised most of the protests, it is not just down to indymedia people to solve these problems...

So what happened?

Well indymedia people just like the other dublin activists have been trying to sort as much accomodation with local people as is possible. People have been looking for other buildings etc etc

The Indymedia space was opened something like five hours earlier today to allow people to come in and get the info from all of the dispalys and flyers etc

As to the thing about corporate media - well the indymedia / CMN space had agreed together with the Dublin Grassroots Network and other organisers of the eu dublin protests that the imc / cmn space could be used for the main press conferences just before the main protests...

It was not a case of you cannot come in because the press is coming, but a case of the press are coming and will have access to the building for the press confereces from 2-5pm today, on friday, and they will be filming, so you might not want to be there.

Posts like the first one serve no one other than the authorities. If you're going to accuse people and groups of such serious things then get your facts right.

ps imc camera people have been assaulted by the cops as well in the last few days, it's not like they're not a target for the authorities as well !

here's to a good few days in dublin! and good luck where ever you are for mayday !!

Just to continue in setting the record straight, this is my personal POV, I am an editor and longtime activist with the Irish site.

The Irish IMC collective is clear and unified on the point that our media centre is not nor was ever intended to be an accommodation centre / convergence point / protest HQ etc. Maybe some people are arriving to the city with this expectation, but it is incorrect, and plans aren't going to be changed based on these false expectations.

It's not about sucking up to the "mainstream" media, or legal issues, or anything like that. We are fortunate to have a working relationship with the community media people that use the building. No-one in IMC Ireland is in the habit of lying to our friends, or saying one thing and doing the other. The media centre has taken a long time to prepare, and a huge amount of work has gone into the exhibitions, film screenings, workshops, meetings etc. Please bear this in mind before you go causing trouble or bad-mouthing us. There's a difference between "what is" and "what ought to be". As you arrive in Dublin, where you are very very welcome, try to understand that, while you can go home again on Monday or Tuesday oblivious to the harm you've done, we have to deal with the consequences.

It seems an error was made then in not taking up with those that did
 http://struggle.ws/eufortress/travel.htm
website; the instruction for people coming to Dublin to go to the indymedia centre.

Also shows there is a need for convergence space that should ahve been flaged up to those coming. When people indymedia uk asked indymedia ie people if they wanted them to come, they were told they should. I guess people in indymedia uk are used to intergation with other groups that does not appear to be case with indymedia ie.

"The Irish IMC collective is clear and unified on the point that our media centre is not nor was ever intended to be an accommodation centre / convergence point / protest HQ etc."

Looks like the IMC centre is still being advertised as a convergence point to me:
 http://struggle.ws/eufortress/travel.htm

I wish this had been set straight between IMC and DGN before this weekend.

just for the record imc is not, and should not, be a co-ordination protest space - it is an "independent media centre".

in the past when it's been attacked and raided as on several occasions the excuse has been because it's been used by black block or for organising etc etc...

like in genoa at least the police are now facing charges for planting the petrol bombs in diaz etc

but the trip stays the same... imc is an information place - a link with the outside world - a communication channel - a place to make counter information and our own media

centres changes from one mobilisation to another - each centre decides how it will run itself

but one of the problems is that because imc people work hard to provide a certain level of public facility infrastructure, people tend to see imc just as a bloody service provider - it is not - it is a participatory project, trying to reflect a different way of doing things - d'you know how fucking hard it is just to find people to help out with the door and cleaning and running spaces like this!

it has a clear purpose and that is not to provide *all* of the facilities and spaces people have gotten used to at large international mobilisations!

the imc people in ireland have done a damn good job of providing as much space as they can and have been working hard for weeks.

it's not surprising that some clashes will occur, but what matters is how they are dealt with and how we learn lessons from them.

what also has to be factored in here however, and which is different from almost every other mobilisation (and yes mayday) that i've seen, is the fight back against the press propaganda that's been churned out here.

people really did carry out a pretty effective fight back against all the lies the press were printing, and managed to turn the tide for most of last week, getting a whole load of positive articles and putting the police on the back foot.

this was done via indymedia and the dublin grassroots network working hard and by communicating with some of the better journos.

i'm not saying the journos or the press coverage is of paramount importance, but it is another front in the fight to create a better world. another front where our battle lines are drawn.

sure people will get angry in these situations, but we have to debate these things not just shout at each other. learning from others and sharing different views and tactics should be our strength.

anyway, save it, time to get on with more important things...

but that was not the primary purpose of the space and we agreed in advance with members of DGN that it would definitively not be providing accomodation.

Why is that everytime media activists get it together to report what is going on, a few moaning people in Britain who stuck behind their PC's bang on about 'why arent they doing it this way?' and 'they arent part of our movement..blah blah blah'

Support the IMCers in Ireland coz they are just dedicated people with no budget.

Go IMC dublin! and ignore the moaning inactives!

You are the only place so far that we can get news about what is going on!

It really makes me sad to see good activists lay into each other.

Please stop *all* the uninformed name calling on both sides.

Thanks :)

from the page at  http://struggle.ws/eufortress/travel.htm -

"If you have not contacted the Accommodation group and you require a place to stay, then PLEASE contact them at  accommodation@hushmail.com IMMEDIATELY as places will be limited.
When you arrive in Dublin, please go to the Indymedia Ireland Centre (Charles Street, off Mountjoy Square, Upper Gardiner Street, Dublin 1 - on the northside of the city centre) where a representative from the Dublin Grassroots Network will have details of your allocated sleeping space, and a map to guide you there."

Does this say the IMC space will house activists? no.

- The lazy people who's second hand complaints bozavine based their post on (is bozavine a new kind of Mad Cow?), did they email the accomodation address, did they even read the fucking text?, jaysus, reading the post again, it occurs to me that bozavine is a troll or simply lacking experience of the world, but it doesn't matter coz anyone can see bozavine is full of shite by reading indymedia.ie

As for "Surely the responsibility has to be with the people who make the news for the sites to report? " I understand direct action people generate a lot of the news to be covered, but my no means all of it. As for policy on interacting with the mainstream, I see the never-ever people somewhat the same as people who want to completely destroy the system, but still expect running water in their taps and fucking cornflakes on the shelves of the corner shop.

Now .............

IndyMedia or AlterMedia?

THIS ISSUE MAY NEED TO BE SORTED OUT AT THE LEVEL OF THE PRINCIPLES OF UNITY WITHIN INDYMEDIA.

Despite the huge successes of the Media Convergence Centre/Indymedia centre in Cancun 2003, there were some problems due to the fact that people arrived expecting to use the Indymedia centre as a Direct Action convergence centre. (and some felt they should, others didn't)

My personal opinion is that if i am protesting, I appreciate and enjoy access to the indymedia networks and resources in order to do my own reporting on my activism, but i don't EXPECT to use indymedia resources or get help from IMC people to plan the protest or execute actions.
When I am working as an independent journalist, I shouldn't have to compromise my position, or the credibility of my independent journalism by working directly alongside protesters. co-ordinate with them, yes, obviously, i go to activist meetings to find out what needs to be covered.
Sometimes, i do disaggree personally with direct action decisions, but that doesn't mean I won't cover them in un un-biased manner, after all, they are decisions reached in a democratic manner, aren't they?
If you talk to joe and josephine public, the people that supposedly indymedia is trying to reach (is it?), some of them feel that as indymedia is run by activists, it simply represents their agenda and while i know they have their heads up their arses for thinking that mainstream represents anything other than mainstream agenda, my point here is that I want to work as an INDEPENDENT(*) journalist. If indymedia is this platfrom, great, if it isn't, then let it be known so other truly independent news networks can be set up.
I spoke to a dedicated and inspiring activist in cancun and she holds the opinion that indymedia exists as a communication network for activists, to inform each other about what is going on in other parts of the world, the strengthen links and build solidarity. excellent!, but is indymedia more or other that this? I think for the sake of the integrity of indymedia, the issue needs to be sorted out.


*for your information, from dictionary.com:

independent:

adj
1: free from external control and constraint;
2: not dependent on or conditioned by or relative to anything else
4: not contingent
6: not controlled by a party or interest group
n
1: a neutral or uncommitted person (especially in politics)
2: a writer or artist who sells services to different employers without a long-term contract with any of them

bozavine,

I think with your first confrontional line of post you blinded some supporters of indymedia Ireland into a defensive position that meant they would not take on board arguments in actual post. They have reduced it to matter of accommodation even though accommodation not mentioned in your or other posts. I was very disappointed that they closed the indymedia centre on sat and Sunday, and at other times, and others in indymedia network found themselves not able to help them keep it open. The space not being the valuable tool to movement it could have been. I think lessons will be learnt.

The mainstream press does really try to to stir up this sort of trouble within our movement and they help spread lie that indymedia is not part of movement for social change.
 http://www2.indymedia.org.uk/~imcie/attachments/may2004/may_press_30.jpg

Indymedia is strong for being loose global network brought together in practical tasks. But sometimes that looseness can lead to misunderstanding, I don't see need to firm up and purify network as the way forward. I think it is best to encourage what is best practise in the network.

Hopefully this will pan out well. And we will work out better for further days of action.

I don't want to be considered a troll, so will try not to come back too often if this debate ensues, if people want to chat please email me directly.

There were some angry people in Ireland from the UK, that was reflected in the title. I also tried to clarify later by insisting that I didn't expect IMC to do anything unlawful. I suppose I was trying to achieve two things. First, as other previous responders have shown, it did state that people were to come to the centre. At the time of the post, I knew there were young people wondering around dublin, not knowing how to get in touch with anyone because the centre was shut. A small point and hopefully we will all benefit from experience.

The second and I feel more important point is I am worried about pressure from the authorities, and maybe I should have worded my headline more carefully. I was thinking of the Genoa situation. I believe that even if there were no black block the authorities would try and find some other way stopping IMC existing during large gatherings, because control of the media is so important to them. The gards had already been quite ruthless with people trying to find somewhere to sleep, and what was to stop them having a go at the imc site, say for instance "inciting" the protestors, it wouldn't be the first time. Quite simply I was trying to provoke the debate, before the Gards banged on the door, on where the IMC people were going to draw the line. I apologise if I did this in an unhelpful way.

Oh yeh, I like the "mad cow" thing, I 'll remember that one when people ask me what bozavine is :-)

glad you like it, bozavine...

lessons being learned all round this last weekend.

i would suggest, maybe next time just post the VERIFIED info you have, without the reactionary speculation.

now let's all make-up and get together for some great media-making workshops. the coverage this weekend from indymedia was abysmal.

One thing to realise in all of this is that local IMCs have a high degree of autonomy, beyond the most basic principles of unity that bind them together into a global network.

Respect for local cultures, diversity and local autonomy are placed high up the IMC priority list.

So what this means is that different collectives and local IMCs can vary quite significantly from each other. In some places around the world Indymedia has participation from a wide variety of groups and political movements and parties, in others it may be more simply direct action and anarchist flavoured. There are some of the biggest differences in areas that have undergone regional conflict and serious repression.

I think it's worth mentioning that in Ireland the rise of the anti-war movement and the recent mobilisations and the coalition groups like Dublin Grassroots Network represent a new chapter in the history of a country used to bloody violence and the resort to arms as a political tool. These are some of the first mass movements and anti-authoritarian mobilisations which have squared up to the authorities (and therefore the police) in the last two years of this new chapter. The culture is certainly quite different to the UK. Indymedia has provided a vital function in the development of this.

On the point about 'indymedia (ireland) is not biased towards the anti-globalisation movement' or whatever it was - i think it was certainly a mistake to make such a statement. If you look at the mayday coverage on indy.ie - it most certainly is - but in the same way it has been biased towards the anti-war protests and the bin tax protests etc etc.

The Indymedia uk website states in its mission statement:

"Inherent in the mainstream corporate media is a strong bias towards Capitalism's power structures, and it is an important tool in propagating these structures around the globe.
While the mainstream media conceal their manifold biases and alignments, we clearly state our position. Indymedia UK does not attempt to take an objective and impartial standpoint: Indymedia UK clearly states its subjectivity."

This marks it out from many IMCs around the world as taking a stronger stance on these issues - thought that's not to say other IMCs don't take the stance through their actions. But many IMCs would say they are not biased towards this ot that. The truth is of course there's a whole range of views and positions out there across the indymedia network.

if the any foreign activist wanted to be sure of having a free plece to stay the should have gone out and got one themselves