This is what the ANTI fascists do?? I have no sympathy what so this kind of action what so ever.

I have some experience of the German Anti-Fa, because I lived in Germany for about a year. Quite appart from fetishising communisim and (astoudingly) even Stalin ("Well he DID beat Hitler"), Anti-Fa seems to instinctively gravitate towards violence. There is a belief that 'they' (the alleged Nazi's) are thugs, which means that 'we' have to be thugs to stop them. Often some historical analogy is presented: "If only people had beaten up Hitler's mob in the 1930's Auschwitz would never have happened. Therefore we must beat up 'Nazi's' today to prevent Auschwitz from happening again."

There is an idea that ends justify the means, and so whilst a car bomb directed at say the headquarters of some left wing political party would be unacceptable, if it's Anti-Fa attacking a right wing party, that's OK or even good. This is in part justified by the claim that 'Nazism is incredibly potent; without our 'hardline' action, it will spread and all sorts of awful things will happen'.

What this misses is the fact that anti-fascism sentiment in Germany is massive. When I lived there, there was a terrible case of a skinhead killing a black guy. The next day, there were demonstrations across the country, tens of thousands of normal people taking to the streets, to show that they were disgusted. Did this stop the man from being killed? No. What is did achieve was to further marginalise the extreme right and its racist and violent ideology.

It is undeniable that there are also (large) numbers of neo-Nazi's, especially in the East where unemployment and poverty higher. The question is: how can you change this? To me, the idea that by organising in some elite Anti-Fa force, using terrorist tactics you will be able to 'stamp out racism/Nazism' is naive and simplistic at best, plain idiotic and dangerous at worst. It creates a situation whereby it's hard to tell the fascists from the anti-fascists.

For this reason, I think it is vital not to tolerate this kind of terrorism.

Making people look ridiculous is a far better strategy than making them look victimized. Look at the images the pro war media promote of the anti war peaceniks. The media avoided debating any serious question and made sure it got some good footage of some 'innocent' and 'well meaning' but ultimately 'naive' girlies. Making facists look ridiculous is as easy as pie going to the lengths of blowing up a cars outside a tiny local office just makes the the people who did it look fucking ridiculous.

A good media campaign would have worked a lot better.

IMF

I have lived in germany too and I can tell you that it isn't possible to compare the situation in Germany to the situation in the UK. Between 1990 and today more than 100 people had been killed by Nazis. The reaction is understandable.

This is how a fascist organisation deals with political opponents.

Own goal!

there is actually kind of an ongoing war happening in Germany between the Nazis and the Antifas.
Most of the time unfortunately the Nazis seem to win the war, having killed, injured and physically attacked far more than 150 persons since the fall of the wall, armed militia being exposed, and hitlists and black lists of political opponents.
The reason why the nazis don't suffer more repression or outrage in the media, is that their political attitude is so wunderfully combinable with capitalism, exploitable and maniputable for the politicians own reasons, as patriotism can so wonderfully cover up the inevitable flaws of capitalism and profiteering, and the social cuts.
The NPD believes in standing in elections, so do many other right wing parties, and unfortunately these were and have been on the rise during the late 90s, particularly in local governments. The widespread unemployment in Eastern Germany after the fall of the wall due to many factories being not profitable and having old equipment was used especially by right wing parties, but later also socialists and greens to build up an hysteria, envy and seperation policy towards imigration and particularly refugees.
Then there followed a big wave of basically rascism, which spiraled up to physical attacks. After the first houses of imigrants burned with their inhabitants killed by smoke and fire, politicians still refused to acknowlege the neo-nazis as a problem and started campaigning for harding up the right to seek asylum, building up one of the toughest border controlls at the european eastern border.
Even english language travel guides warned coloured and black people not to travel to East Germany anymore.

I can understand the action, and would be cautious of evaluating it in the understanding and surrounding of the British activist mileu. However, would also personally agree that it seems the german antifa scene seems to stress the importance of militancy too much, and that this could be perceived as offputting by some activists, especially women.

all that liberal middle class that oppose the "violence". im sick of you.
war against the nazis by all means!

By allowing Nazi groups to carry on unnopposed, people are effectively collaborating with them. Oh, and lets not equate terrorism with fascism, as anarchists, liberals, conservatives, politicians, businessmen, hunters, anti-hunters can all engage in terrorism. Anyone can be involved in terrorism, whether that be through war, economics, or whatever.

Fascism is revolutionary ultra-nationalism, something that all progressives need resist and fight against, both in a direct manner and through propaganda etc.

Calling direct action terrorism is an ultra-liberal way of saying we should lobby parliament, write letters, vote for the right parties, etc etc, just don't do anything yourself; its a joke unworthy of indymedia.

I don´t agree at all with the argument that the situation in Germany justifies an arson attac on fascists. The situation for immigrants in Britain is much more dangerous, be it police racism or fascists` assaults. The problem of antifa in Germany is not the use of violence as such. The problem is that antifa have an elitist, vanguardist approach. They completely fail to relate to broad sections of society. Abstract radicalism in propaganda and action is often accompanied by arrogant prejudice, regarding the mass of people as "bought of by capitalism" or simply as stupid - or worse as fascistic. By using this vigilante and commando approach of arsoning at night antifa excludes other indivduals and groups from joining the protest. Antifa all too often want to be the lone rider fighting the fascists on their own. Antifa also very often reject tactical coalitions with other left wing groups or bourgeois anti-nazis for reasons of ideological narrowmindedness, therefore making it very easy for the police to supress antifa activities. Summing up, antifa approach is elite vanguardism mixed with stalinist "second period - social fascism" sentiments. A couple of years ago a massive anti nazi demo stopped the police pushing through a nazi march merely by ít´s size and especially because broad sections of society had joined the anti-nazi protest and blocked the route. So police simply couldn´t afford to baton charge 50.000 protesters - among them trade unionists and families, and therefore they turned the fascists back into train waggons and busses. I know that the traditional approach of the Anti Nazi League in Britain is not the panaceum. But from my experience with both traditions I must say that an ANL-like approach would in Germany prove to be a far more succesfull tactic against fascists than the one currently employed by antifa.

I think many of the radical fringe movements in Germany (of both the right and left) are playing on the economic plight of many working class Germans, who are suffering from high unemployment and a downturn in their economy.
Many Germans fear (perhaps rightly) that the employment situation can only worsen when border controls are relaxed with the expansion of the E.U. , a lot of people on the left tend to blindly ignore the will of the people when calling for open borders in this respect.
In the same way Fascist groups play on these fears to strengthen their own agenda, you only need to look at the young politicised population of the old East Germany who are now becoming polarized into Far-Left/Far-Right communities. The use of violence against these organisations can only give them the publicity of being victims and harm the Anti-fascists reputation. The use of these violent means also smacks of desperation in the face of harsh realities on the ground in Europe today.

Soon because no-one will fight the fascists here, they will get a big street presence, then the trouble will really start. no joke.

European social movements, squatters and migrants have been struggling for years against nazism and fascism, without any support from the pathetic excuse of the left-wing in this country. coalitions of dumb fools.

set if off.

Tony writes: > I think many of the radical fringe movements in Germany (of both the right and left) are playing on the economic plight of many working class Germans, who are suffering from high unemployment and a downturn in their economy. play on < the economic plight of working class people as they are often affected by unemployment themselves.

I didn't quite get what you said there ! To clarify, all I meant was that these groups play on the fears of the population, whether it be Antifa over-estimating the influence of the far right in German society, or the Fascists themselves whipping up scare stories of mass economic migration.

As someone who has been beaten up on many occassions by the 'skins' (no its not because I choose to be beaten up, its because I am Black), I would much prefer it if the 'armchair liberal anti-fascist' would join forces with the 'skins'. That way, we get to know which side of the 'debate' you really sit on.

I can draw a parallel to other issues here, hypothetically speaking, like if a group of men were to stage a campaign of hate against women (using acts of violence, rape, intimidation, arson etc...) I'd expect members of the community (me included) to be saying 'right, lets get out there, see and confront the perpetrators...', but somehow, when we talk about hate-crimes, race and combatting fascism, we end up in the cyclical debate of 'not lowering ourselves to their, fascist/BNP,(sic) level', errr... hello, if I were getting beaten up and you were around, would you walk away and allow the perpetrator to get away with it(hopefully it won't be soon...)?

If you were around then, where we you I wonder during the 70's & 80's when the NF would blatantly stroll along the High St? Would your position been then to have stood silently and watch while the NF and the media spewed their vile lies?

So, back to the point in hand, wooly liberalism (politically left & right speaking)allows people to take positions on issues which they have no moral, psychological or ethical understanding of.

Don't allow ourselves to be fooled into thinking that by reasoning with the racist, it will change them(sic). It won't and it doesn't.