Glad you raised this issue Julian;

Louise Ellman wasn't speaking on behalf of anyone in Liverpool other than the 'Zionist' pro-Israeli lobby. She wasn't even the choice of the local Labour party to be their MP, she was imposed on the local party (not that I'm defending the rotten Labour party) and thus on the community of Riverside and wider Liverpool.

Liverpool Friends of Palestine (LFOP) held their fortnightly vigil in support of the Palestinian struggle, its last one was immediately after the assassination of Sheik Yassin and 10 other people, LFOP will be having its next vigil this Saturday and it comes immediately after the assassination of Hamas leader Rantissi, the vigil will be at 12pm to 2pm on the steps of St.Lukes Church, which is the bombed out church at the top of Bold Street. ALL SUPPORTERS OF THE PALESTINIAN STRUGGLE ARE WELCOME TO ATTEND...

LFOP holds a monthly meeting on: First Tuesday of the month, at the Methodist Centre next to News From Nowhere Bold Street, 7.30pm the next one being 4th of May.

Also there is a national demonstation in support of the Palestinians on 15th of May in London and LFOP are taking a coach, ticket prices are £10 unwaged £15 waged.

For any further information on LFOP, the vigil, the next meeting or the coach to London on Saturday May 15th send an email to LFOP's secretary at the following email address.

 rosemary@lfop.fsnet.co.uk

LFOP will undoubtedly be organising more support for the Palestinians, and against the oppression and murder by Israeli occupation forces in Palestinian lands.

Just recently there was a discussion on by Anne Gwynne on "Life Under Occupation".

Incently Liverpool Socialist Labour Party was host to a Palestinian speaker in May last year, who spoke first hand on the oppression of Palestinian people in their day to day lives, it's simply horrendous and when a Palestinian speaks first hand about living under military occupation it really hit home, she is a medical student and told us about the malnutrition, the shelling on Palestinian communities with gas, the uprooting of olive trees, the dust that's created by tanks driving around churning up the soil, etc, etc. I've had an education myself in the past year and the more I learn the greater my personal support for the Palestinian struggle gets. We also showed a video last October of a youth from Gaza who spoke (in Bolton the previous night) about his personal experience of Israeli military occupation, having himself been shot with a 'dum-dum' bullet in the back done to permanently disable him as he was informed by an Israeli soldier while passing through numerous check points to get to a hospital to get treatment.

IN CONCLUSION
Liverpool can hold its head high as it's shown outstanding support for the Palestinian struggle, certainly raised the issue of the suffering of the Palestinians, and the injustices to the wider public.

Thus: Liverpool Riverside Labour MP Louise Ellman doesn't "represent Liverpool's view on Israel"

When you answer questions on a poll, a poll with a number of questions, the "rule" imposed is that you are answering the questions independently. You are answering in an imginary political vacuum where the your choices on one question aren't influenced by your choices on another. You aren't allowed to "trade", not allowed to dump all your say behind just one question leaving the others "don't care".In otehr words, it isn't "real" politics.

You think it matters that most of Liverpool would prefer supporting the Palestinian side of the conflict and that the "Zionists" are a small minority? That's the wrong way to look at it. You are missing the point. What you need to ask is what differecne does it make in the election. All these Labour Liverpudlians who would prefer a different position on the Palestine question, do they care ENOUGH about that issue that they would vote "Conservative" because the candidate took the "wrong" position on THIS issue. Now ask that same question about the Labour "Zionist" voters. And ask what is the normal margin of victory in Liverpool.

See, everybody gets to pick what issues matter most, THEY get to make that decision, not you. As an outsider, I don't know the political demographics of Liverpool, but I would at least consider the possibility that a pro-Zionist candidate was "imposed" because an anti-Zionist Labour candidate can't win there. The problem is that for just about everybody else besides the Liverpool "Zionists" and the Liverpool Arabs the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a SIDE ISSUE, way down their list of priorities, a minor factor pro or con but not THE issue upon which they will decide to vote for or against a candidate.

ANYWAY -- that is the reason why just about all US politicians take a pro-Israel position. To do otherwise only costs votes -- there simply aren't the votes available on the other side of the issue. Nobody else cares enough, understand? Real life politics is NOT like a poll. In real life politics you CAN choose to throw all your clout behind just one or two issues and accept the other outcomes. You too can have this effect IF YOU CHOOSE. All you have to do is be willing to give up your say on other matters.

The zionists HELPED THE NAZIS kill Jews during WW2 (Google: "Zionist Collaboration with Nazis 51 documents") - the zionist nazis are occupying Palestine and will continue to die until the zionists leave and let Muslims and real Jews (such as those from  http://www.jewsNOTzionists.org) live in peace as they did before the zionist occupation began...

Elman is a zionist nazi bitch who pisses on the Torah with he anti-Jewish belief in the fake "state" of "israel" and her support for "Jewish" terrorism - end the 50 year old occupation of Palestine and there will be peace! ... "israel" has NO RIGHT TO EXIST - there is no such thing as an "innocent israeli" - they are all living on stolen land! The holocaust (sad as it was) is not an excuse for the fake Jews (ie. zionists, who beleive in this made up "state" of "israel") are not only the worlds most dangerous terrorists but also IGNORE international law (until it suits them!) ... End the 50 year old occupation of Palestine or there will be dead zionists littering the streets of Occupied Palestine.

End support for the Nazi "state" of "israel" ... Ariel 101-Sharon is a WAR CRIMINAL and a nazi zionist from Russia - go back there you fat cunt and give Palestine back to the people who have lived there for centuries before your 50 year old land-grab began.

Mike;

While this is of course a political issue, it also happens to be primarily a moral and human rights issue. While communities and neighbourhoods are being turned into dust here in Liverpool and Merseyside, also in the Ellman's Riverside constituency, it's not unrelated to the daily occurences happening in Palestine with housing being demolished and the displacement of people, I'm one of those who've suffered it directly in Liverpool. I make no appologies for making that link. However while our kids stone buses, Palestinian kids stone IOF tanks and soldiers they clearly know who their enemy and oppressor is they are therefore more politically advanced than us, we in Liverpool clearly don't know who our enemy or oppressor is - not yet!

The question was "Does this represent Liverpool's view on Israel?" I replied that 'Louise Ellman' doesn't represent the people of Liverpool, let alone the people of Riverside, the constituency with one of the lowest electoral turnouts in the 2001 general election.

However if we elect or choose (or we don't elect or chose) someone to represent us at a tenants association, community group, in council, as an MP we had better be aware of the power we are giving them to use or abuse hadn't we? Louise Ellman has used her position in Parliament to speak in support of Israeli state terrorism! Has she used her position in Parliament to speak up for Liverpool Riverside, the people in Kensington area would dispute that.

Louise Ellman was not elected as a pro-Zionist candidate, whether being a pro-Zionist made a difference to her being imposed on the Riverside constituency or not, I couldn't say, but the chronically low turnout was not related to her being a Zionist or not. It just happens to be a case that the majority, mostly working class, here in Liverpool are detached from the political process and actively choose not to vote.

how can anyone organize vigils for the death of leaders of hamas? hamas is an extremist organization which most palestinians do not support, it intentionally tries to kill as many civilians as possible. innocent arabs have even died in it's attacks. the liverpool associations in solidarity with the palestians should think again

I think Mike's analysis is an over-excused explanation of the "workings" of democracy.

An MP goes through two rounds of electioning to get into parliament. The first round is to get through the local selection committee of their party. This committee is highly undemocratic and virtually unaccountable. They actually care about the MP's policies.

Only the second round is the popular election, characterized by general public apathy, disinterest, and lack of informativeness for the majority who vote by party rather than by representative. Why should one get informed anyway, the vote counts for so little, and is drowned out by all those who vote on a party line without knowing who their MP even is?

One feels that in this constituency, Margaret Thatcher would get elected if she had (Labour) after her name on the ballot sheet. Shaun Woodward in St Helens was just as bad.

I think that we should delete the party names off the ballot sheets so that people actually need to remember the name of the MP sponsored by each party. Then they maybe might also find out what they're stand for.





To that idiot with the statement defending Israel, and would probably defend it even if they dropped an atom bomb on London, there are two words in answer to their policy: "arrest" and "trial". This is known as a visible procedure of justice, taken by a state that is in fear of some old cripple in a wheelchair. Assassination of such a person by helicopter with 9 unnamed bystanders is an act of wanton gratuitious violence, given the alternatives. Without doubt, the state of Israel believes that terror works.

Well in many ways we're voting for a party, it's policies... It's kinda messed up, because in one way, you're voting for "Labour" for example and you expected in 1997 an end to Tory policies, so you're not actually voting for your MP, Mr X, Miss Y you're voting for a name who represents a party with a collection of policies.

However then there are councillors and MPs who are well known 'personalities' and thus we fall into the "cult of personality" trap which means for example we've had a councillor who's been in Labour then stood as 'New Labour' which doesn't exist as a party (it was a vote splitting tactic) he then joined the Lib-Dems (Joe Kenny), then we had another councillor who was in the Labour Party, who then joined the old 'Liberal Party' ie Steve Radfords political bandwagon, then left them and joined the Lib-Dems (George Smith), at no time did these councillors (Or George's wife Irene), or the others actually stop the destuction of the Norris Green 'Boot' estate community, if they had actually lived there (as I did when I was an SLP candidate in '98 and '99) they'd have been fighting for their right in alliance with the rest of the community.

It's very much a case that we're obsessed with the 'cult of personality' in this country isn't it? Surely, the issue of the European Constitution comes down to if you vote NO then you're voting against Tony Blair personally, that's not good for the issue, because it shouldn't be transferred into a vote on Blair or not. So what if Blair goes, just like when Thatcher went all we got was a face change, not a policy change. It's policies and politics we have to change to transform this society into one that puts people first and money last.

We've got the issue with George Galloway, RESPECT, it's been another 'cult of personality' which the SWP love to support, So GG was anti-war, so were lots of other people, including people like Arthur Scargill who while a member of the STWC coalition steering committee was excluded from speaking at any of national demonstrations in London 'Charlies Kennedy' was allowed to speak from such a platfrom last February and he's not even a member of the STWC steering committee.

And what has the darling of Liverpool's middle class left done, I mean Bob Wareing Liverpool West Derby MP, he's not spoken out against the Boot estate community destruction and he actually grew up in Norris Green, he's not even aided tenants there who thought he would be their saviour, he's done nothing to help the tenants in the Liverpool Housing Action Trust (HAT) flats near the showcase Croxteth, merely refering their letters back to the chief executive who's responsible for the undemocratic decisions these elderly and mostly vulnerable tenants were trying to oppose.

So there we go, we the majority detach from politics, ie the working class collectively and we leave our 'class' opppressor free (unaccoutable) to do as they choose, whether that be supporting Israel (Zionist Ellman) or whether that be jetting off to Zimbabwe (I was recently informed) to speak to Robert Magabe (Bob Wareing MP).

Does anyone get the relevance of what I'm saying?

Why are these Labour Party MPs more interested in using our voting power to speak out for foreign countries but not in aiding their very desparate Liverpool electors?

They will all want our vote in the forthcoming general election, trying to frighten us with threats of 'don't let the Tories back in' yet the working class in Liverpool have already voted by a collective boycott.

I can fully understand every side of the arguments here, but the question was does Louise Ellam MP represent the views of Liverpool. Well, I have to say yes in my personal case. i am from Liverpool and thank Louise Ellman(never thought I would) for her comments.

I realise that I will be habitually skitted here now for my views, but that's what they are... MY VIEWS! I am entitled to have them and so are our elected MP's.

There are more people in Liverpool with my views also.

Thank you Louise Ellman.

And now I'm ready for the abuse......

The Semitic nations living in the Middle East seek to deny the legitimacy of those fellow Semites known as Jews. They claim Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine, although not mentioned, as such, even once in the Koran, yet more than three thousand times in the Torah. They deny Jewish heritage and suffering and have prolonged the misery of the Palestinian people by witholding their fabulous wealth and political powers. Had the Arab world accepted the UN resolution of 1947 as did the Jews there would be no refugee problem today, yet, four wars and an Interfada later most still deny the Jews their homeland. Whilst the Jews took in the million refugees kicked out of Arab lands the 700,000 Arab refugees were denied entry to other Arab lands and kept as polical pawns to use against the struggling State of Israel. The Palestinians had their chance for peace and instead they threw it away,in 2000, they were once again offered a wonderful chance to live in peace, again they threw it away.

Those who spout with such venom, view selectively (only)the last sixty years of Middle East history, they care nothing about Arab corruption and deceit and their anti-Semitism drives them to hate, just like those who invented "The Blood Libel" (see Syrian T.V. now), the "Protocols of Zion" (Egyptian T.V. last year) and wrote the hate-filled text books now found in schools throughout Arab lands. After two lost wars, in 1967, the Arabs declared "No peace, no concessions, no negotiations", what was Israel to do, a country, at it's narrowest, just a few miles wide built defensive settlements. And so we reach today with more misery propogated by the Terrorists who still want Israel gone.

"J'accuse" the ignorant and often foul mouthed individuals who write on this site of ignorance and bigotry, I am stunned that in this day and age, their view of justice for the Jews is another Holocaust. To those people I state the Jewish belief "NEVER AGAIN", and as one of the powerful nuclear nations in the world, even the Arabs understand this.

Peace will eventually prevail in the Middle East and Semites of all tribes will once again live in harmony and prosperity together. Arafat when he received his Nobel Peace prize promised to "EDUCATE FOR PEACE", had he but lived up to that promise there would be no Jewish or Palestinian mothers now weeping for their loved ones lost in this senseless fighting.

Whether or not Ellman's views about Israel and Palestine in general are shared by the people of LIverpool, I would hope that most of them would be sensible enough to agree that Hamas is not a progressive organisation which is working for Palestinian freedom, but is a fighting machine devoted to the murder of innocent people. The Sheikh was no heroic freedom fighter or peace-loving spiritual leader, but preached racism and hatred and inspired the killings of many - not a man to be mourned. If I'm accused by some of my fellow indymedia readers as a "zionist bitch" for thinking that, it's a sad day for radical politics.