Can anybody define what 'working class' actually means in this country. Does English working class culture still exist. Or has this been replaced by the service class,the consumer classes, the aspirant class etc.. fed a diet of faux working class culture by the media. The Sun is one of big example of 'the media class (?)'inventing a 'working class' lifestyle / taste / consumer choice.

i have seen it before, someone talks about a working class issue and then a middle class prat tells us that the working class does not exsist. This is a classic diversinary tactic from a middle class person who wants to displace their guilt by repeating the lie that "we are all middle class now".

The working class are the sweepers, the cleaners, the ticket collectors, the biscuit packers, the bog cleaners, the unemployed, the dogs bodies that clear the shit up for the middle class (the teachers, civil servants, state puppets etc) that serve the upper class ... for fucks sake! Get with it!

Looks like the middle classes are rising up again on indymedia! Expect a backlash!

'The working classes don't exist, they don't exist ... obey obey obey ... the guilt, the guilt' ... malfunction? ... Good!

Class as an issue really becomes part of British society during the 19th century; it is then that we see a need for people to do very backbreaking work in the burgeoning factories that were popping up all over Britain at this time. The wealth created was immense, in fact it might be possible to say that Industrialisation, coupled with the slave trade, the plantation system, the control of opium in Hong Kong, and Britain's general prowess in overseas trade, made Britain the wealthiest nation there has ever been. We have probably been surpassed by the US and Japan, but for 2-3 centuries nobody could touch us. Anyway, some people lived lives of absolute wealth, splendour and untold luxury, whilst others lived lives of hellish and brutal hard work, short lives and in many cases dreadful and inescapable poverty, compounded by the wilful double-standards and hypocrisy of the 19th century. Out of this, comes our present state.

Working Class can mean many things, as can Middle Class and indeed Upper Class, Ruling Class and so on and so on. Working Class can mean an 'unreconstructed' person, someone indeed not obsessed with talking 'posh', or being educated, or speaking 'properly' and so on. It can also mean merely someone doing a low-end job for low wages. It can also be a state of mind too, as can anything else. It can be the way a person dresses, what party they vote for, how they spend their money, what they eat, drink, read, buy and where they go and what hobbies they pursue. It is, and I think this makes the most sense to me, tied up with economics, and of course economics, personal and family economics, can shape your whole outlook on life, and can shape your whole worldview; if you come from a poor background, live in a bad (or even humdrum) council estate, your parents are poor and perhaps out of work, you see poverty behind and poverty ahead of you, it will invariably affect your life. You then are probably working class by default.

The problem as I see it, is that there is a whole lot of false class consciousness going on out there; the market trader with M/Class pretensions; the teacher with W/Class pretensions etc. Then of course there are many of us, and perhaps I include myself amongst this, who are neither one thing or the other. A guy with a good degree and a half decent job from a poor background; a middle class person who, for one reason or another, has fell on hard times and genuinely has become working class in habit and attitude because of life experiences. We know of many such instances, and I believe also importantly, we can be hyper-critical of those who use Left politics for their own ends, but we shouldn't attack anyone for whatever background they come from. The Class issue is still a relevant issue, and will remain a relevant issue until we thrash it out, and have a series of open and blisteringly honest debates (on TV, Radio, Internet) and get all our bile and angst out, and then, only then I believe, will we draw closer together as groups of people. Yes, there will always be exploiters, rip-off merchants, but these come in every shape, class, shade, religion and from all points of the compass. If class has to be an issue on this board, and no doubt it always will, let us be specific about what we want to talk about, and let us be honest about our intentions.

I believe that the only real change we will see is when we gather those individuals who want change, and who want to see a more just and fair world. Surely that's what we all want after all???

The subject happened to be about the threatened closure of post offices, which actually effects some of the most vulnerable, mostly working class people, as we found out while getting the CWU petitions signed. Many pensioners will incur addition inconvenience having to get their pensions from other post offices located further away. Others on benefits, like the unemployed will incur additional bus fare costs which will further reduce their megre benefits. There will be even longer queues often outside the remaining post offices often in the cold and the rain on benefit pay days, this will make it harder even for those who ain't on benefits to get a parcel posted or simply to buy a stamp at a post office on a Monday morning for example, all designed to 'break' the post office service for political and economic purposes.

By the way the 18 listed are probably just the first round of closures planned.

Yes the same working issue is raised and a so-called middle class twat intervenes and a staunch working class person replies and tells them that any questioning of "does the working class still exist" is a question that only middle class people ask.

And yes, the working class are the sweepers, the cleaners, the bus drivers, but they are also the office temps, the adminstrators, the supervisors - enlisted into jobs that were 20 years ago jobs of the middle classes. And what are the working classes up to - they join the army to kill, they become community policeman, they become the managers, the bnp voters, they become compliant and fundementally re-inforce their own class oppressors, they aspire to be anything but defined by class, a definition that is imposed by this society, a collective, manageable identity to be controled, to be a market to sell commodities, internalise behaviours of control, culture, ideas.

For a revolution to happen, it has to happen when we see identity and classification
as a social control, not to reinforce them with crap leftist arguments.

Destroy class, all classes, destroy capital!

who will benefit from these closures? the banks... parcel delivery companies... which other private businesses? and how many times have these same companies invited your labour mp out to dinner this year?

Q: Do you have to work for a living? If you don't work and don't get paid, do you have to claim the dole/steal/starve?

If you answered Yes to the above you are working class. It doesn't matter if you drop your haitches or drink Shiraz or whatever.

Q: Do you have a private income from a) Land, b) Property, c) The stock market, d) Your own business, e) Mummy and Daddy's Trust Fund?

If you answered Yes to the above you are Middle Class, what Unkle Karl called "bourgeois". Again it doesn't matter if you are a dead posh aristocrat or a self-made yobbo with a dotcom and a BMW.

Simple.

Kai, you seem to be, becoming a bit of a self publisist on liverpool imc. The topic is very worthy and it's the first time, I for one, have heard of it. This is a loss of an essential community service in probably the most deprived areas of Merseyside and something should be done about it. However, instead of just publising yourself, a friend and the SLP, why don't you try an organise something, post the info, like I said, really good getting this info out into the public domain, but why not try to get a decent crowd together (no matter what class, broader spectrum the better) to protest n get some attention. No offense but two people giving out leaflets isn't going to achieve much. I figure a grass routes party like SLP should be trying to involve the community and empower people in their own communities. How about posting the petition, I could get a few signatures in St Helens, I'm sure others could in their own communities.

how is liverpool indymedia publicising +itself+ so more people get involved and report what's going on? no reason this site should have so few posts when there's so much to write about.

The petition form has the following text...


LOCAL POST OFFICE CLOSURES
IT IS THE INTENTION OF THE POST OFFICE LTD TO
CLOSE A NUMBER OF LOCAL POST OFFICES

WE THE UNDERSIGNED OPPOSE THE INTENDED CLOSURE

PRINT NAME SIGNATURE ADDRESS ____________________________________________________________________

____________________________________________________________________

____________________________________________________________________

However, if you are prepared to get some filled in then it's probably
well worth a call to the CWU office in Liverpool and ask them to send
you some petitions and window posters they've already got prepared
that is where we obtained ours and we intend taking our filled in
petitions back to.

Branches Homepage | North West region

Liverpool Clerical

Visit CWU Liverpool Clerical Branch website at  http://www.cwuliverpool.co.uk

Branch Contacts

Position Name Telephone Email
Branch Secretary Rob Alldritt 0151 229 7785  unionoffice@cwuliverpool.co.uk

re: Read Chomsky

> Self Publisist?
> 27.02.2004 21:11
>
> Kai, you seem to be, becoming a bit of a self publisist on liverpool imc.

Because I happen to put my name to the things I'm posting, it shouldn't be a problem.

> The topic is very worthy and it's the first time, I for one,
> have heard of it.

Therefore I've provided you with information, news that you're not aware of. There needs
to be a freer flow of information.

There is a big issue regarding proposed 'all post voting' for the entire North West, North East and Yorkshire and Humberside regions, that meant we were going to lose the ballot box for all local and Euro elections. I've actually been quite concerned about it myself, as 10,332 voters lost their votes in Bolton in 2003 as it was a 100% post ballot and those voters chose not to sign a slip as they figured it was a 'secret ballot'. I bet few of you knew about 10,332 people losing their votes in Bolton and the council changing control from Labour to Liberal-Democrat control, it's not be covered in the press or media locally, coverup I'd call it. I emailed two complaints to the Electoral Commission, mentioning the Bolton case as an example of how all postal ballots can go wrong and since February 14th I've had no reply at all, so much for the idea of e-government, e-ignore more like... Anyway the Lords have rejected all postal ballots which is good news for the moment, but it could voted for again in the commons.

Then there is flouridation of water, which can be imposed by the new QUANGO Strategic Health Authorities, unfortunately the news item that was posted up on Liverpool Indymedia has been erased, but I was able to make contact before it was removed, it has enabled me to find out more on the issue.

> This is a loss of an essential community service in probably the
> most deprived areas of Merseyside and something should be done
> try an organise something, post the info, like I said, really
> good getting this info out into the public domain,

Well that was the purpose of the posting, ie inform people that we were supporting a campaign in our communities, as it directly effected us ourselves.

> but why not try to get a decent crowd together (no matter what
> class, broader spectrum the better) to protest n get some attention.

We'll speak to the CWU when we deliver our completed petitions and suggest setting up some kind of community based action group, for which I'm sure there would be quite a lot of support.

> No offense but two people giving out leaflets isn't going to achieve
> much.

Well it happened to be a starting point, a first step.

> I figure a grass routes party like SLP should be trying to involve the
> community and empower people in their own communities. How about posting
> the petition, I could get a few signatures in St Helens, I'm sure others
> could in their own communities.

We also need to understand the wider political issues that form the backdrop to what is going on, the EU regulations that are behind the privatisation of the post office.

Kai

Kai, You seem to have taken offense. Apologies if that is the case. I was just suggesting that if you'd posted the info and arranged a Post Office to target on a particular day or something like that, I'm sure you'd have more than two people turning up and perhaps would have more of an impact. You're right though two people is a start and fair play for doing it. The Community Action thing is a good idea as well.

re:re:re:

> re above
> 01.03.2004 20:57
>
> Kai, You seem to have taken offense.
>
> Apologies if that is the case.

Mmmm, well 'self publicist' sounds suspiciously like someone trying to promote themselves for their own self interest and believe me I've seen a lot of the 'left' doing that for their own personal ego/career/political advancement. Which is not my intention. I just prefer to put a name to my postings rather than leave it anonymous.

I've read a lot of complaints from posters here complaining that the left including socialists in Liverpool ain't interested in working class issues. Perhaps it's a chicken and egg situation? Nobody wants to start something without wider backup and nobody wants to support something until more people support something. Kind of a receipe for doing nothing while waiting for something to happen.

> I was just suggesting that if you'd posted the info and arranged a Post Office to
> target on a particular day or something like that, I'm sure you'd have more than
> two people turning up and perhaps would have more of an impact. You're right though
> two people is a start and fair play for doing it. The Community Action thing is a
> good idea as well.

Well the idea being that we get petitions filled in and take it from there. I believe it is time for taking action, people are still taking the most minimal action eg. petition collecting and letter writing and many people are now seeing it as something that is ignored by decision makers. Though for us it was a case of supporting a campaign already started by the CWU, rather than us starting another petition with another name on it.

is there any way we could ensure it was a working class petition? maybe delete posh-looking signatures, or give a speech test before allowing anyone to sign? there could be clothing checks .. no shellsuit no signature.. can't be too careful

The previous posting is an OFFENSIVE TRIVIALISATION of an IMPORTANT ISSUE. You cant maintain social purity by signature styles or clothing.

No, what you need is my patent Oik-ometer. You merely get the subject to repeat a characteristic phrase (such as 'they do though, don't they though' or 't'ra Theresa, see you Tuesday') into the receptor and if the light flashes the person is a bona fide prole.
It would be a gratifyingly progressive use of the device, which I originally invented to keep poor people away from my car.
Captain Hatstand

Classing people is quite simple really; if they don't have a wooden salad bowl (in their house, on their person, hanging from their belt etc) they're lower class, unless they wear a tiara, of course then they are upper class. Easy really.

Equally, tellies, or should I say televisions, is a dead giveaway. Those with 3 tellies, lower class, those with 2 televisions, middle class, and those with a television the size of Belgium, upper class. False class consciousness, ya see.

As well as this, the dialect of individuals is a pointer towards their social class origins; a posh person (of any calibre) tries to speak 'properly' by saying 'Frarnce' instead of 'France', 'half an R' instead of 'half an hour', and 'Himarlias' instead of 'Himalayas'. A common person merely grunts, groans, whines and scowls menacingly at his or her superiors. And an aristocrat or very very posh person lets out a high-pitched unpleasant noise, which amongst some circles passes for language, but for most everybody else is like having teeth pulled without anaesthetics.

Dress sense is another sure-fire way of telling what class someone belongs to. A pinstripe suit and bowler hat; yep, you've guessed it, middle class. A tracksuit, accompanied with an unshaven (and probably unwashed) face, leering and eyeing people up in a surly manner, is most definitely working class. And, wellies, bad hair, bad teeth, barbour jackets, stupid little f*cken hat on top, is most certainly upper class.

City post offices facing the axe


11 post offices are to close and six more could join them
One of the "most impressive" post offices in the North West is to be closed as part of a restructuring plan.
The Lyceum Post Office, in Liverpool city centre, is to be shut along with 10 sub-post offices in the city.

The Post Office said the Lyceum was not viable and the list could be extended to six other sub-post offices.

Conservationists say the ceiling at the Lyceum, restored to its original state in the 1980s, makes it one the region's most impressive post offices.

The sub-post office closures are part of a national reorganisation to "ensure the viability" of those that remain.

'Not viable'

Those closing are: Town Row, Stoneycroft and Lower Breck Road in West Derby; Window Lane, Gateacre; Cressington Road in Garston; Derby Lane and Picton Road in Wavertree; Knotty Ash and Aintree post office in Warbeck Moor.

The city centre Post Office moved into part of the 204-year-old Lyceum Buildings in 1984.

It was during this decade that the ceiling in the post office hall was restored to the design of the original architect Thomas Harrison.

The work was described at the time by Mike King, former conservation officer with Liverpool City Council, as creating "the most impressive post office in the North West".

---
COMMENT:

This is the latest from the BBC it seems that despite a large number of people signing petitions and sending in letters opposing the closure of their local post offices, we've been ignored -as usual- I hoped the CWU might have got back in contact with us after we delivered pages of petitions on Wednesday 10th to suggest some kind of joint strategy, ie public meetings, direct action protests etc. No return call which is quite disheartening really.