>Oh, and the building offered by the GLA recently was free but the security was around £5,000. And >thats just the start of the big spend. The money to fund the ESF has to come in in the next couple of >months or its off. Where is that money going to come from? I would be wary of the motives of
>people bearing gifts.

the meeting cost £5000 for the translation headsets so people from around europe could understand each other, something that was not possible once a few autonomists in the room decided to make the chairs a circle during the lunch break meaning that the translators could no longer translate as the systems only work one way

The money for the ESF will come from unions, NGO's, activist on the ground and the GLA, only part will come from the GLA and it will have no more say over the event than any of the other groups....btw the money from the GLA comes from their campaigns budgets which is our (tax) money, why shouldn't it be spent on us???

Yes it is bad that Ken rejoined the labour party, but I'm not going to let that stop us doing the ESF which will inevtiably be far more radical in some aspects than he would like....

>Its not built on the roots of local social forums (Jonathan Neale now a major part of the organisation >of this jamboree, has said publically he doesn't believe the UK is ready for local social forums, he
>doesn't believe in the principles of social forums, yet he is heavily involved in organising the ESF in >London. Draw your own conclusions).

It is not built on local social forums becuase those that exist like Manchesters are small group of individuals who seem to think that because they have called their groups 'social forums' means they have the right to denounce everyone else and hijack the process....no it will involve all the usual groups involved in the other social forums, peace groups, NGO's, unions, environmental groups, anti-gm groups, tenants' campaigns, socialists, etc...etc....and maybe even a few anarchists if they want to, in fact anyone that wants to share in the real spirit of solidarity in diversity that has just been seen in Mumbai......something your attitude is severly lacking in....

Hello whoever you are

Firstly I would say that, as far as I am aware, Manchester Social Forum has no intention of denouncing everyone who chooses to be involved in the ESF or of hijacking the process. I am not going to start playing silly games about the size of groups or whatever. .. I dispute that successful action that works and involves people is anything like as simple as how many people turn up to the usual tedious meetings the left is so fond of, you’ll be calling us ‘sectarian’ in a minute… heather runs away screaming from the ULTIMATE insult – tongue firmly in cheek.

But I do have to say that there are people within Manchester Social Forum who are committed to the ideals of the ESF and want only to see those ideals created in London in the true spirit of the principles of social forums worldwide. That’s fine by me.

However, discussion on the  democratise_the_esf@riseup.net list has belayed the somewhat cosy image you suggest.

I do know that many people both involved in local Social Forums across the country and in Manchester are extremely uneasy about the London-based ESF process so far. Pretending its ok won’t make the problems go away.

In fact, it is more likely not to happen, unless there is real and honest discussion. Its also important that decisions regarding openness, clarity, accountability are taken by concensus that those decisions are actually acted on.
where people who turn up to the meetings believe
And no, we don’t all live in London (where all the meetings are held).

The point about Social Forums is in fact that groups of people can come together locally in an open space, organised with a flat structure where everyone can speak freely, where decision making is based on concensus, where people bring their concerns about local , national and international issues, to discuss these with the intention of action if people want to do this. There is no prescribed size of the group, there is no prescribed name. It concerns me that you dismiss local social forums so contemptuously, and yet you say you speak for the European social forum.

The danger of this being a vehicle for ‘red ken’ is very real. The cost of the whole shebang is astronomical (and will be spent on much much more than translators - are the accounts going to be open to people to see, because so far the information available to those who are interested regarding the costs and the likely breakdown of those costs hasn't exactly been openly available to aid the decision making process amongst those who might wish to decide whether or not to get involved). But hey, maybe those are just the 'few anarchists', you know, the ones who ask the awkward questions???
I will put up more factual info if people want .

Heather you said

>Firstly I would say that, as far as I am aware, Manchester Social Forum has no intention of
>denouncing everyone who chooses to be involved in the ESF or of hijacking the process. I am not
>going to start playing silly games about the size of groups or whatever. .. I dispute that successful
>action that works and involves people is anything like as simple as how many people turn up to the >usual tedious meetings the left is so fond of, you’ll be calling us ‘sectarian’ in a minute… heather
>runs away screaming from the ULTIMATE insult – tongue firmly in cheek.

Well you may not but other people from the MSF have, in very selfish and egotistical ways, speaking out of turn, ignoring the facilitator, blocking consensus when they have no viable alternatives, turning up at European meetings to disrupt and try to get UK speakers such as people from the Green party taken off the speakers for plenaries which have previously been decided at open meetings, setting up rival email lists, like democratise, setting up with others rival websites, undermining the process at every stage, in the most undemocratic fashion, now that may not be you, you may not even agree with it, but it is people from the MSF...

>But I do have to say that there are people within Manchester Social Forum who are committed to
>the ideals of the ESF and want only to see those ideals created in London in the true spirit of the
>principles of social forums worldwide. That’s fine by me.

I would hope there are, and I see no reason for them to be concerned

>However, discussion on the   democratise_the_esf@riseup.net list has belayed the somewhat cosy >image you suggest.

yes becuase it is full of autonomists and anarchists who have had nothing to do with the esf process up to now, but I presume because of there relative weakness in the UK want to turn the ESF from a broad-based mass event into a navel gazing free festival!

>I do know that many people both involved in local Social Forums across the country and in
>Manchester are extremely uneasy about the London-based ESF process so far. Pretending its ok
>won’t make the problems go away.

yes and we're talking about a handful of people, there are many, many more people involved in muslim anti-war groups, STWC, unions, tenants campaigns, peace groups, green movement who have no problem with it all, except that if they are to support and fund the ESF they want to see a clear structure, something that the people from the MSF have been part of delaying happening

>In fact, it is more likely not to happen, unless there is real and honest discussion. Its also important >that decisions regarding openness, clarity, accountability are taken by concensus that those
>decisions are actually acted on.
>where people who turn up to the meetings believe
>And no, we don’t all live in London (where all the meetings are held).

there s plenty of honest discussion, maybe people aren't so good at circulating stuff on email, but then not everyone spends all day in front of a computer, and I'm sure once we have the process in place the meetings will reach out to more people around the country, but they have to start somewhere and as it's going to be in London, that is where the effort is concentrated


>The point about Social Forums is in fact that groups of people can come together locally in an open >space, organised with a flat structure where everyone can speak freely, where decision making is >based on concensus, where people bring their concerns about local , national and international
>issues, to discuss these with the intention of action if people want to do this. There is no prescribed >size of the group, there is no prescribed name. It concerns me that you dismiss local social forums >so contemptuously, and yet you say you speak for the European social forum.

I'm well aware what social forums are...the problem with the local ones in the UK is that they do not involve real social forces that the European Social Forum does, they are in fact one group among many, which I presume is what the last poster meant by they don't have any special claim over the process

>The danger of this being a vehicle for ‘red ken’ is very real. The cost of the whole shebang is
>astronomical (and will be spent on much much more than translators - are the accounts going to be >open to people to see, because so far the information available to those who are interested
>regarding the costs and the likely breakdown of those costs hasn't exactly been openly available to >aid the decision making process amongst those who might wish to decide whether or not to get
>involved).

True there are potential problems with Ken, but other WSF's and ESF's have also involved people who are on the fringe in terms of whether they should be involved at all...like I said the GLA is only one small part of the money, and it's our money, not Ken's have some faith that the movement can withstand being coopted by him!!!

Once we have a structure, we can have accounts that people can see, in fact that's one of the conditions for any of the larger organisations funding it.

>But hey, maybe those are just the 'few anarchists', you know, the ones who ask the
>awkward questions???

no I think they want a different event, one that includes only activist like themselves and no one else

most of the time, a lot of people just seem to focus on what they can get out of the esf and how their organisation alone can profit.

it seems really sad that this event is used for manipulation, deception and domination by the Socialist election forces, instead of making it a comfortable and easy get together, it has become a struggle against the grassroots, and not for them.

Dear Noel

Is that Noel, attack-dog extraordinaire of the SWP-GR? Tanti saluti comrade.

We could debate all day and night about everything else you and Heather have said - some of which, Noel, i agree with - but I really just want people to be aware of some FACTS about the Democratise the ESF list.

Noel, you say:

"it is full of autonomists and anarchists who have had nothing to do with the esf process up to now, but I presume because of there relative weakness in the UK want to turn the ESF from a broad-based mass event into a navel gazing free festival!"

I'm on the Democratise the ESF list and the last time I looked so were 186 others. Judging from the debates we have had and the people who have posted, I'm sorry to disappoint you but as well as autonomists and anarchists, there are socialists, greens, trade unionists, trade union officials, feminists, Muslims, left magazines, Indymedia activists, community groups...not just from Britain, but from France, Greece, Italy, Russia, Hungary and beyond.

And there are even some SWP members who also believe in democracy on it too!

Many of the posters are involved in the ESF, have been attending meetings; the rest are interested in getting involved and need information.

The list has so far been the only place where any information and discussion has taken place among a spectrum of people about how we can ensure democratic structures.

It is where structures have been debated and out of which proposals have been submitted on 3 separate occasions to ESF meetings. Those included in signing these proposals are the people you slander in your emails. The Manchester Social Forum people?

Those proposals have never once been acknowledged by the small cabal who have tried so hilariously to control the ESF process.

But instead of moaning, most of us getting on with the work of ensuring democracy in the process and the cabal are now beginning to see that (a) they don't need to try and control the process (b) they couldn't anyway. The ESF has the potential to be great. Already, loads of groups from across the country are getting in touch to work on the themes. The only thing that will stop the ESF being useful to the UK movements is if a small group of control-freaks try and stifle all the creativity and turn it into a rally. I'm with you Noel: we don't just want a Forum for activists, we want a Forum to attract new people to radical politics and to take London over for one week to show that alternatives to capitalism and imperialism are possible and within our grasp.

I'm not worried that Red Ken will hijack it and I don't know why others are.

We shall meet again tomorrow at the UK Assembly in the GLA building 1.30am to 5pm.

I can't contain my excitement.

Stuart