reposting of a comment to the hidden article:

2 questions

16.11.2003 19:08

this posting poses 2 questions:
First - is the video evidence about a rucksack with weapons planted on Simon chapman credible? and second - does it matter?

About the first question: Yes, any pictures and videos can be faked - you will only ever know wether a picture tells the truth if you've taken it yourself. But you can assess the probability of what you see. Of course, Simon's friends and family won't believe that he was running around in Thessaloniki carrying weapons. You might think that they are biased and their judgement flawed. In that case I would like to point to the EU Greens who demand the immediate release of the Thessaloniki 7 here:

 https://publish.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/11/280607.html

While they state that they are completely opposed to militant protest, they also express concerns about civil liberties. They think that anybody has a right to fair trial. The Tessaloniki 7 are not convicted, they are held in prison under suspicion, although the legal framework generally demands that people have to be seen as innocent until a court has found them guilty. So - on which grounds are they held in prison?

I would also like to point to Liberal MEP Baroness Sarah Ludford, who calls for release of Hunger Strike Briton, stating the following:

“I utterly deplore people perpetrating violence in the name of politcal protest, but the right to demonstrate peacefully is a vital civil liberty that should be upheld even by those who disagree with the particular cause. If Simon has been a victim of police scapegoating and malpractice, this is a very serious situation which needs to be investigated."
 http://www.sarahludfordmep.org.uk/cgi-bin/index.cgi?ref=2003/11/05001.txt

Now - do you think that a liberal MEP would go public in support of Simon if she wasn't convinced that the evidence in his favour is at least worth looking at?

And the second question: Assume someone gets caught with molotov cocktails during a demo. Is this a bad enough crime to deserve an indirect death penalty? I mean, people who send thousands to war and death don't even have to stand trial!

l-tour

er, if u really have looked thro site after site after site... then u surely must've come across this one:  http://www.freesimonchapman.org/evidence.html - and there they are, the same reuters and AP (yeah they're really likely to doctor photos to show simon had been stiched up!) pix that were in the guardian, the same ones that are on the video, the flyers, they're not that hard to make out either! blue bag, black bag (x3). but hey, i guess u find the greek riot cops testimony more compelling...

understand the concerns pointed out above.

Some food for thought. Right now the point is that five young men are dying in a Greek prison hospital. They went on hungerstrike to protest against the conditions of their arrests and against their imprisonment without trial (which is legal in Greece, up to 18 months, but is it legitimate?). They are _NOT_ asking to be released without trial, just demanding to be released until their trial comes up. they are risking their lives for a fair trial. But one should take a fair trial for granted. This includes that the judges watch all the evidence.

now - are we as bad as "them"? This argument often comes up with people who haven't learned to think properly. Did any of the Saloniki prisoners send anyone to war - and to death, a part from themselves? No. Did they order to drop bombs on an entire country? No. Did they invent an entire fantasma of fake evidence, spending loads of taxpayers money? No. Does Indymedia have a monopoly on large media empires, making it impossible for any contradicting voice to be heard anywhere? No. Does Indymedia have the power to keep anyone in prison? No. Does any activist group have the power to keep anyone in prison? No.

Reading media is about who you trust and what you want to believe. if you trust the daily mail, you'll declare that their hateful statements against asylum seekers are true. If you are an asylum seeker (or maybe your son's girlfriend is one), you might choose to believe somebody else. If your political believes are with the Thessaloniki 7 and opposed to the G8, you will believe their friends and families and do anything to get them out of prison. If you think that demonstrating is wrong, or that there's no problem with the Greek prison system, you'll simply ask: why don't they start eating again?

If the comparison mentioned in the article above makes any sense, then this would be to reveal that it is completely pointless. A concerned soul struggling with the complexities of post-modern power relations.

The type of virulent comment added to this perfectly sane and sensible piece is tragic. It's the reason I'm not putting my real name - I wouldn't want to get attacked by people who are so vicious. They make the Daily Mail look peaceful. Where is the justification for such bile and hatred? What is happening to their spirit?

Otherwise, as far as the facts go, I know that two independent activists (with track records beyond reproach) have also seen the video and concluded it does not prove anything one way or another. It should also be remembered that thousands of potentially innocent people in the UK are currently being held without trial; it's called "being on remand"

I think what I am really concerned about is that on this issue Indymedia reporting is showing no real concern to scrutinise the evidence, or to assemble facts, to the level required to convince the undecided.

This is the foundation of my allegation of hypocrisy.

Because Simon is one of our own, we are totally partial. Just like our enemies with their own.

Firstly, I want HONESTY.

If Bush had said, "we are the new world power, and we will seize Iraq because it is in our interests to do so. You going to try to stop us? " Then at least we could respect that.

If Simon said "So what if I had molotov cocktails - I was justified in using them, and here's why...". We could respect that too. If he then defied the authorities to do their worst he also would have many peoples respect.

But a big campaign based on the thesis that he has been framed can only possibly be justified if it is TRUE. Anything else is hypocrisy and deceit worthy of no respect at all.

That's just my opinion. That there is a truth, and that it matters.

If not, what can I say to Bush, except shrug, and admire his military and persuasive power ?

Now, if we are to swing this world round, and if Indymedia is to be part of that, we need to begin to attract, and convince a new layer of calm, educated, rational people.

The sort who really would scrutinise the video (for instance) for themselves, with absolutely open minds.
Who will want to look at the evidence. Who are not impressed by bald statements of fact.

They will have questions. Since the other media will not provide answers, we need to if we can.

Just as Bush and Blair made bald statements about Iraq, I have seen a number of bald statements about the Thesalonika 7, for which I can find no backup.

I particular, the sites claiming to represent their legal team have a huge silent gap in their press releases of several critical months.

Perhaps some of you can help. Lets stick to the case of Simon.

1. I cannot find any definitive statement that he has been charged, or any translation of the actual charges, or information on the laws he is supposed to have broken..
2. I am told that he is being held without any intention of a trial. That greek law permits imprisonment on "suspicion" for up to 18 months, with no need for a trial (or actual charges?). Can this be true ? How could Greece gain admission to the EU if this is correct ? Does anyone know of an authoritative link ?
3. I am told the authorities deny the existence of his "blue bag". To whom have they denied this? Can I find an authoritative statement to this effect ? The "Press Releases" from the" legal team " don't cover it, and don't look convincing.
4. Why do I find no witness statement online, even from other activists who must have been there ? However potentially biased, they would be worth taking into account.
5. Evidence from the police? Is any available ? I haven't found any.
6. The only thing I have is the video evidence. I agree it is superficially convincing, and I accept that Simon is wearing what appears to be a two-colour bag, part blue part black, with a blue strap. I agree it is not in the pile at the end. But that doesnt prove it is not involved. I wouldn't put the most important evidence, including dangerous materials, back on the kerb next to the accuse. There seem to be three or more black bags. Just because they are there, does that mean they are his? Or that they say they are his? Has been accused of carrying three bags?
7. Putting the hammer in the bag does look fairly convincing, I agree, but it doesn't prove it is the one he is accused of carrying. That could be snugly in a police van. How many people carry hammers at this sort of event? Anyone willing to tell me?

Now, I must say that on balance, I consider it more likely than not, that he was framed, and is indeed innocent. The Greek police do not have a good reputation.

But you see, The US government thought it more likely than not that Iraq had WMD's. Saddam did not have a good reputation.

If these charges are serious under Greek law, then I have to say that I don't think the video alone is enough to acquit him straight out. Provided that he receives a fair trial within a reasonable time, I don't think he is getting a worse deal than hundreds of remand prisoners in the UK, about whom we are not protesting (though perhaps we should be).

The hunger strike, I am afraid, is a red-herring if we are discussing justice and fairness. An individual decision, and entirely his own affair.

Of all my questions, the most critical is....Is it really true that there is no plan or intention or requirement for him to receive a trial in which the evidence can be assembled or tested ?

Show me firm evidence that that is the case, and I'll campaign on that. Regardless of his "guilt" or "innocence".

In summary, to get real action to help Simon, you need to get the mainstream media, and the ordinary people, on side. To do that someone has to make a convincing case. Shouting "look at the video" alone is, sadly, not enough. If he has a decent defence team, are they assembling further evidenced ? Marshalling facts and statements ? Why do I see no evidence of this on line. If the hope is to use public pressure to bypass legal process, then a coherent body of evidence needs to be made public.

Please drop all the threats and emotion. 10,000 innocents died in Iraq, partly because someone emotional "knew" the answer.

The best way to get Simon free is to help put forward a calm, considered case sufficient to convince hundreds and thousands of calm, neutral, rational, but concerned people like me.

If that makes no sense to you, then you are just a different face of the Bush craziness.

Its not only Bush who needs the capacity to listen to dissenting voices asking for reassurance, and to respond without anger and hostility.

Nameless: Since you "Have spoken to Simon, demonstators, and seen the evidence - he is innocent of these charges" everyone concerned is in need of your constructive input. Why be aggressive? Help to convince us - its much more constructive. What evidence have you seen ? What did the demonstrators tell you ? Did anyone pick up Simon's bag, if the police don't have it ? Do you know if a decent defense is being put together ? Is there a forum you are posting on where this is being discussed ? Is it really true no trial is planned ?

Pescao: The picture of Simon's bag which you link to is a low quality frame pulled from the video. I am hoping for a hi quality still of the critical blue/black knapsack. Probably doesn't exist.

Humanist: Your statement that :
"They are _NOT_ asking to be released without trial, just demanding to be released until their trial comes up." is news to me. This is not what I have got from all the other postings and support sites. THIS is the point to make to get widespread support.

My only thought is why would the police show the bags and the stuff inside them to the camera? Unless they were showing off what they've found on the protestors, taking it out, putting it back in. Is there any video evidence or anything for any of the others? Perhaps the bag was from the protestors but not Simon and they just dumped it on him and framed him. Simon's bag is clearly mostly light and medium coloured blue, with a bit of black, and nothing like the other black bags.

Ok, a response:

I have hidden this current posting - although it wasn´t me who hid the previous one. Perhaps I would have, if I had known about it, and in any case, I know who did and I agree with her/him.

this current posting (and comments) are hidden as:

1 - Non-news : posts which are clearly purely comment, opinion or rants unrelated to a recent event or action etc.

2 - Inaccurate : posts that are inaccurate or misleading.

3 - Disruptive : Contributions by individuals who habitually publish above mentioned discouraged content.

Although you may care to disagree with some of these.... anyway, I shall explain (and I apologise if I am a little bit emotional about it all: I have put a lot of work into this).

Firstly, I find your post to be "purely comment" and not actually anything new; the video and the still images have been available since at least July and it is unclear why you are only bringing this up now - apart from to be "Disruptive."

Secondly, I think you are "Inaccurate" - and here, I have the advantage, having seen the original footage, as shot by ET3 National TV news channel of Greece. I also agree with previous commentators that it is unlikely that Baroness Ludford would back this case if she also was not impressed with the evidence - and likewise the BBC, ITV etc, etc.


gdm