I'm no scientist but it seems fairly obvious even to me that "chem trails" are caused by nothing more than very hot jet engines coming into contact with water vapour. The effect of this is steam, or 'clouds' if you like. But unlike the fluffy ones these are long and straight, as you would expect. The patterns in the sky are simply lots of planes crossing on two different flight paths.

Hey, I get paranoid like the next bod about a whole load of things. Mossad, the CIA, Billy Bliar etc etc.

But just what is it about this chem-trail fixation???!!

try telling the Thousands of us who have being watching for a while.

just look at all the info/evidence, theres more here than meet's the eye.

Look at what "they" have done to the people before, it's the global criminal elite.
they want to control and keep us down, but times they are a changin.

They want to put a Fluoride Compound in our water for exaple this is being pushed through right now,  http://www.npwa.freeserve.co.uk/
Hexafluorosilic acid is a poisonous compound and a toxic drug they want to dope the population up and slow our brains and make us ill.

they want to control the vitamins suppliments, they allow dangerous microwave mast's to go up near homes and school's. it's all about control.

they want to put a microchip in your body to track you and make you a zombie.


they have being Chemtrailing for years now i have sen them in the sky this year many times.

this is a major difference to aeroplane contrails.

contrails dissipate chemtrails expand and form fake clouds I have observed them many times for hours.

Back and forth the go.

this is real WAKE UP NEO!
take the red pill and see how deep the rabbit hole goes:

www.davidicke.com

and
 http://www.bariumblues.com/

My Freinds Chemtrail site.

but hey it's nothing right, no, wrong I beleive it is a major operation.

else why would i have to post's removed?
they were not offensive I dont post much here at all, i am new here.

I would not post too many things, it was a fair post.

Paul :^)

Your postings are infactual in every sense of the word - see the guidelines reagarding what is and isn't hidden (  http://indymedia.org.uk/en/static/editorial.html )

Also this page debunks this whole chemtrail rubbish (  http://www.worldzone.net/international/chickiedeb/ ).

Now run off back to Mummy, you make the place look untidy.

... unlikely to overcome your scientific ignorance, if you ar enot allowed the facts!

Chemtrails are real, have been scientifically studied and totally under reported by all the leading and most of the alternative news sources.

This is not suprising after all, to repeat a phrase that I perhaps overuse in this place;

All knowledge goes through 3 stages ...
First it is ridiculed
Then it is violently opposed
Then it is accepted.

(And thanks to arfur soapyhour for that one).

I think the attitude of the IMCUK censor/admin is that it is "misleading conspiracy".

Apart from the abuse of the word conspiracy, which has taken the place of heresy in our times, I can understand the idea that it may be misleading.

There are a variety of theories surrounding the issue -ranging from just aircraft exhust, experiemental aircraft exhust, secret aircraft exhust etc, to high atmospheric seeding with UV blocking chemicals by a desparate and hidden scientific community. Some beleieve that it has something to do with potentiating HAARP experiments and others an attempt to block aliens.

Unfortunately the areana for dispelling the fluff and nonsense from this issue is very narrow - leading to more misleading information staying unchallenged when it could be easily shot down by a cursery glance at the facts.

If, as it seems, the IMCUK obsession with 'saving' us from non-news/conspiracy debate is preventing you from recieving the appropriate guidence and information, then I too would recomend that you zoom over to the jeff rense site;
 http://www.rense.com/
(to go straight to an informative article there:
 http://www.rense.com/general30/deby.htm
or (he dared) the david icke site
 http://www.davidicke.com/icke/index1c.html)
for a more reasoned and lengthy discussion in the open.

remember what hamlet said though ...
There are more things in heaven and earth than in your philosophy ...

I suggest you find a different site to air your views on, as people on this site who believe in chemtrail rubbish and lizard nonsense (especially from that sad loon Icke) are stictly in the minority, and the remaining 99.999% of us want proper factual news, not conspriacrap.

Better still
14.10.2003 07:02

Better still go to www.carnicom.com for a full and scientific study of aerosol operations over a five year period.This ordinary US citizen is at the cutting edge of investigations on this subject.Keep looking up at the sky and observe for yourselves what is being done to our biosphere.

Redkop
Source:
 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/10/278839.html
===========
thanks for the back up mate, dont know you but least you looked it up.
In Freindship, Unity, Mutual aid and Cooperation.
Paul :^|

some people get frightened by this issue and lash out,
I forgive them.

it's scary i can see that, but it's true.

please dont lash out at me from fear,
I am only doing what I feel is right,
I am acting to the Best of my ability in this now momment.

I send You divine: Light,Love,Peace, Healing, wisdom and understanding, Truth,
Kindness and Gentleness.

Love, always Love.

Fear is the path to the darkness.

LLight is information,
Darkness is ignorance.

Paul :^)

Unite the people we are ONE.

 http://goodsky.homestead.com/files/index.html

And if you still believe in this crap then you are very sad people indeed.

good to see your awakening from the Matrix Reality.

we need more like you in the world.

Peace to the moderator TOM,

NAMASTE

I celebrate that place in you, and that place in me
where we are ONE.

please don't be so harsh my freind, there is no need for it.

we are different but we are ONE.

we just see the world differently.

the Truth will out, either way, eventually,
with Divine Light and Divine Love.

I Respect your True Self.

from the front page newswire.

you are not so different from the them, you have let your fear and darkness rule your heart.

Love is my law.
I am the master of my fear.

why can you not just let peole have the Freedom of Choice to choose for themselves?

people have that right.

Im not afraid to post my email, but you dont want to post your's.
that's ok of course.

dear freind awaken from your dream.
of course it's up to you.

" it's just a choice, just a choice, right now between Fear and Love."
David Icke.

We are: the Family of Light, System's Buster's, on call, anywhere in the universe.!"
-Barbara Marciniak, bringer's of the Dawn.

I am Me. I am Free.

"a Warrior is a free being and therefore he cannot submit himself to slary of any sort."
Return of the warrior's.
theun Mares.

www.toltec-foundation.org.

If you don't like the Indymedia editorial policy...
14.10.2003 19:44

I suggest you find a different site to air your views on, as people on this site who believe in chemtrail rubbish and lizard nonsense (especially from that sad loon Icke) are stictly in the minority, and the remaining 99.999% of us want proper factual news, not conspriacrap.

Tom/ghost of bullshit buster

Tom, how can you speak for the majority when you don't give them a unbiased choice in this matter? I know it say's the indymedia is biased but people have a right to know this. I think that you pretend to be indipendant but you work for the them in reality.
that is your choice or were you born into it?
opposames.

im not happy about it and i understand that you dont care about that,
but i Have said it any way.

i habour no grudge against you, but its a real shame, you have shown up indymedia uk,
for what it really is when run by thought police.

Paul :^)


The poet Rainer Maria Rilke once said:
"We must assume our existence as broadly as we in any way can; everything, even the unheard of, must be possible in it. This is, at bottom, the only courage that is demanded of us:
to have courage for the most strange, the most inexplicable."


"We must choose today for the children of tomorrow."
- Leo Genereux

"Freedom of Thought
allows the kind of discovery that expands our world
and allows us to become the best that we can be."
- Susan Jeffers.

"Our lives begin to end
the day we become silent
about the things that matter."
- Martin Luther King.

As one who's been successively censored here as much as left to ride (not victim consciousness just fact) but what is fact? The last couple of years or so have had the fact that most public-arena fact is in fact just cack. You couldn't have it more in your face. And yet, it's true, there is still the policing of consciousness here = 'Don't even go there man' 'Don't even look at it - it's conspiricrap!' Yet if you don't have the models, the different paradigms, in your head, then you can only resort to the one - the learnt - in the family, school and university - in the street from so many other indoctrinated folk. If you accept the paradigms you can test the perceived realities against the theory.
Simple ain't it? Don't block out ideas just because they don't fit in with your received reality.
Infactual schmactual. I'm not sure the term features in the revised guidelines.
Well done Paul for putting this up and keeping it sticking

I want to thank jackslucid for his help it was much appreciated.
may the blessings be.

and thankyou to James for putting this right. much appreciated.

Good to know that some of you serve the Light and Freedom.

you better watch those agent smith's ;)
there everywhere.

also thanks to dh for your input.

"the time is alway's right to do what is right!"
-martin luther king .jr

indeed my sentiments exactly.

Divine Light, Divine Love and divine Peace.
In Freindship and Unity,
Mutual aid and Cooperation.

Together in Truth and Freedom we can make this world the best it can be :)


Paul :^)

Besides, there are thousands to millions of sites dealing with this stuff, why go and post to a site like here where such ideas are treated with hostility?

 https://publish.indymedia.org.uk/en/static/mission.html - THIS IS WHAT THIS SITE IS MEANT TO BE - not some discussion board about the latest nonsense UFO lizard mind control bullshit!!!

If you believe in such stuff, I have nothing against you using Indymedia, just respect it for what it is. Also THIS IS NOT THE ONLY SITE ON THE INTERNET!!!! It is no real loss to you if you views are excluded from this one site now, just find another one, or form your own.

Also a warning to you all, this post's presence on the open NEWSwire may still yet be numbered...

Stop whinging about your petty insults being removed, and go fuck a pig!

Any specific reason why you have to sign as Tom?

I am now begginning to wonder whether
Thomas J=Harlequin ?

\\\\you are biggest joker I have read for sometime.

Ram = Rockwell = Realist??

The knight in shining armour who used to police the newswire it seems is actually a site moderator.
If so why persecute the innocent Harlequin who appeared nit to break any guidelines?

How did Thomas J become a moderator? The kid was learning from what I have observed.

... this 'tom' is, [he] is very rude and seems to think it's enough to throw around some childish intemperate insults to deconstruct the myths and falsehoods surrounding this subject.

This attitude makes me cringe - if not for the profoundly closed mind [he] projects, then for IMCUK, which [he] claims to represent(?).

I fail to see how lizards, testicals or excreta can be associated or employed against what is an increasingly reported phenomena.

[He] reminds me more of the bullshit buster/ghost buster character (in fact [he] hints at this connection for us.

This arrogant, insensitive anti-intellectual and anti-heretical attitude would be better of in the middle ages, or at least areas of the world busy trying to retain or recreate such a poisenous stunted atmoshpere.

However many times you use the word conspiracy (and only in the sense of it as a argumentive full stop) it stil retains very little meaning out of context.

Present your evidence, show some respect or go back to darning your black balaclava, ready for the next macho, meaningless and unproductive show off dear.

meanwhile, those interseted in the concept should "watch this space" - where I encourage any with pertinant info to produce it for scrutiny. I will do the same.

Don't feed the trolls is one of the best bits of advice one can offer in this context .. and to dh, Ram, Paul and others - thanks for keeping this site alive with your contributions, although I reserve the right to disagree (naturally) I applaude your efforts and your desire for truth and justice.

peace and love

"The Indymedia UK website provides an interactive platform for reports from the struggles for a world based on freedom, cooperation, justice and solidarity, and against environmental degradation," ( I agree with that paragraph extract. Paul :^))

>Besides, there are thousands to millions of sites dealing with this stuff,
>why go and post to a site like here where such ideas are treated with hostility?

Tom, you seem to be the only one here acting like a petty tyrant that is treating this subject with hostility.

yes there are lot's of sites, all from america tho.
but it's no use preaching to the converted so to speak.
they who know already,
but so many are unaware of this chemtrail spraying.
The people of the Uk have the right to know and Indy Media Center UK has the duty to disseminate the information so people here can have and make a Free Choice for their Selves.


> https://publish.indymedia.org.uk/en/static/mission.html -
>THIS IS WHAT THIS SITE IS MEANT TO BE

Tom I agree whole haertedly with the mission statement.
I have not broken the rules as far as I can see.

>not some discussion board about the
>latest nonsense UFO lizard mind control bullshit!!!

I havnt mentioned UFo's, lizard's or mind control ever regarding this.
What are you mentioning these things for Tom they have not been mentioned by anyone on this post other than you. I never said i subscribed to beleif's in ufo's or lizards.

Mind control is real and not bull shit. as im sure they would agree on  http://www.raven1.net/
the US gov has conducted numerous experiment on citizen's in the U.S, Uk and all over the world.

Now you may know that Remote Mind Control Technology-RMCT-is a very Real Threat Among us.
well it is but it is not talked about and and not officailly recognised.

>if you believe in such stuff, I have nothing against you using Indymedia, just respect >it for what it is.

I do respect indy media but you seem to be someone who does not want to allow other's to hear a different piece of information from the norm.
the Chemtrail studies are something that must come out.

I believe that you must give people the right to look into this and other fringe studies, this could lead to protest and the real truth coming out.
"Unless you are the Police of the Silence" Tom ?

on my first post on the subject in question,
which you first removed without considering that you have no right to deny the people who visit this website the freedom to be made aware of something that they have a right to know about, so they can make up there own mind.

>Also THIS IS NOT THE ONLY SITE ON THE INTERNET!!!!
>It is no real loss to you if you
>views are excluded from this one site now,

Not to me but what about the People who You purposefully
Deny the Right to Freedom of choice via this website?

How can someone be aware of some thing out of the ordinary when you don't give them the choice to discover it?
You are helping to keep it in the Dark in stead of allowing it to surface in the Light of the alternative media mainstream.

This is a good website IMC UK,
for this topic I posted originally. afer all it was only a photo and a web link with a breif comment from me.

We need this site to air news that doesnt make it into the mainstream media.

You have been denying Me that right to make people aware of this subject.
You have been covering it up Tom.
Are you "a policeman of the Silence" Tom?

Who is controlling your mind Tom is it you?

A hyponotist said, "if you don't control your own mind someone else will"

Look up on my site:
 http://www.oneness.cjb.net/

A Battle for your Mind by Dick Sutphen regarding brainwashing and Mind Control.


Why do you feel so theatened that you lash out so.
and why do want to be so controlling Tom?
is this whay you join IMC UK to control what people get to read and discover via this site?



>just find another one, or form your own.

I dont want to hide in the shadow's, I come here because I like the indy media
publish your own media option thats really good i like that.

This brand is welll known and good people who care about thing's come here.
they are People who have the right to Know please don't deny them that right or you become like the controller's.

>Also a warning to you all, this post's presence on the open NEWSwire may still yet be >numbered...
>Tom

just please stop being a petty Tyrant just because you want your own way.
are you having a temper tantrum?

Just What is your real problem with this? there is more hear than what your telling.
Does this Frighten you Tom? What is it? Who are you working for?
Light or Dark?
Freedom or Tyranny?



James Seems to think its fine so who are you to say that people havnt the right to know about Chemtrail's.

You seem to hide in the shadows mate.
I think you would love to control other's but,
you know, you really only need to control your Self.



The Light is Information, Darkeness is Ignorance"

Truth will out.

I send you Divine Light and Divine Love Tom,
whatever you feel about me or my post's.
NAMASTE

Paul :^)


"Its just a choice right Now between fear and Love"

his woman seems to think their's something in it.

Give people the means and the chance to find out for themSelves-

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/10/278839.html

Something Odd Is Going On
15.10.2003 10:34

My son and I kept seeing odd trails in the sky over North Wales coast this last summer. We are well accustomed to the normal contrails.

The suspect trails grow wide rapidly behind the aircraft and soon turn into what looks like clouds. Some of the aircraft switched off this stuff for a little while then switched it back on again. And a few of these aircraft, crossing the previous trails, were apparently being closely followed by a small white, Lear-type, jet - clear through binoculars.

The oddest thing we saw, on a couple of occasions, was a thin dark, straight line appearing directly AHEAD of the aircraft. We both saw this odd phenomenon.

M

Meirion Hughes

END QUOTE
===================
End Note:

A Definition of the Word Fascist:

 http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Fascist

Fascist: A reactionary or dictatorial person
Now who could this apply to?

Look to carnicom.com and you will see real scientific evidence of the aerosol issue.This is real go to this site and just look at the evidence.Please look to www.carnicom.com he explains everything in a scientific manner and does not treat the issue as just another conspiracy theory.This subject appears to scare people off and they appear to close their minds to it.All i say is read the evidence for yourselves it really is convincing to anyone with a open mind.

Comments copied and pasted from  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/10/278971.html

the beauty of the web...

15.10.2003 19:00

...is that everybody can have their own website! and even better, everybody can implement open publishing software for free. So - if indymedia uk doesn't like your posting, don't worry. You can try other forums, or the daily mail, whatever. Or even better, make your own open publishing website and run it with whatever degree of openness you wish.

jab
Dr Strangelove is hiding under my bed

15.10.2003 19:06

"Gen. Jack D. Ripper: Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous communist plot we have ever had to face?"

The reason your post was removed, I'm guessing, is because:

1) it damages the credibility of IMC-UK as a source of serious alternative news
2) there are serious, real issues to be dealt with
3) the whole chemtrail thing is a total joke
4) what you posted wasn't news
5) it wasn't supported with any explanation or evidence
6) the chemtrail myth has been completely and irrefutably debunked so many times only an cretin would carry on ranting about it
7) I quote: "CHEMTRAILS I CAN SEE THEM IN THE SKY". I can see you tearfully rocking away in the corner, whispering to yourself about the voices. It's nothing to be ashamed of, but you should know there are people that can help you.

I suggest if you do wish to carry on with the chemtrail nonsense you stop abusing IMC-UK and produce a scientific, reasoned, referenced article that will, as you mentioned, 'give the people the chance to deside for themselves'. You ranting "I CAN SEE THEM" is a waste of everyone's time, including your own.

As for the 'three stages of knowledge', no 'knowledge' stays accepted for long unless it can be seen to be either useful or reliable, or both. So far none of your posts move towards that aim - in fact, they've been entirely counter-productive.

Seeker
INFACTUAL

15.10.2003 19:13

UK indymedia editors can hide stories if they believe them to be infactual, seems reasonable? No?

Chemtrail conspiracy de-bunking sites:

 http://www.worldzone.net/international/chickiedeb/

 http://goodsky.homestead.com/files/index.html

I understand your point that even un-reported stories desreve an airing but frankly i've seen probably 20-30 chemtrail stories on the indymedia network and not a single one of them has been convincing.

PS
The editorial team would probably treat your information more seriously if you approached them on the editorial list rather than posting these 'censorship stories' which are'nt really stories at all and which further devalue the newswire.

Mayler

If you want go set up your own website.
This is our website.
Right on Tom.

..."our website" ... ???

Who reads it?

Them?

The simple facts are these.

1. There are trails in the sky.
2. Some say they are simply the result of moisture condencing around the exhust of aircraft engines.
... Correct.
3. The exhust of most military jets and considerable amounts of private jets contains a fuel additive that is considered a deadly poisen even by the [us] environmental protection agency. It is called Ethylene dibromide and is part of the modern fuel type JP8. It also has the action of a strong pesticide.

Now work the rest out for yourselves.

Here are some links

Knock yourself out (or pretend you understand and carry on moaning).

 http://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm
 http://educate-yourself.org/ct/
 http://www.rense.com/politics6/chemdatapage.html
 http://worldzone.net/international/chickiedeb/
 http://www.apfn.org/apfn/contrails.htm

Beware, if you can't tell the difference between evidence and proof, or have little understanding of science, there is a lot of trash out their (perhaps purposefully so - I don't know, I have my suspicions based on the history of, say, nuclear power, tobbaco & cancer, gm food, etc etc bloody etc).

Discriminate (A singular and personal act - I can't do it for you, nobody can. If they say they can run a mile).

>All you idiots should get a life
>15.10.2003 20:46

>If you want go set up your own website.

I have my own website.
it is not like this site though,
That is why I come here, for what it is.
It is for me as much as it is for you.

This is we the people who the values of the IMC UK mission statement.


>This is our website.
>Right on Tom>anarchoteapot

Yes it's OUR WEBSITE ME INCLUDED MATE!

And everyone who comes here and any one who pay's for this website
and its hosting and bandwith.
and it's alway's open to donation's isnt it!
so anyone who donates, even tho it's not required as that would make it a subscription service,
and understand's the mission statement and posting rules can post here.

I believed,
in my very ever first post which was removed and started all this woohaaring about,
that what I was posting was 'news' as stated in IMC UK Mission Statement.
people have the right to know as anyone can come herefrom all walks of life.
I and i had the freedom to post my news.

I have the right to be here too.
I care about what goes on in the world too!

That's why I am expressing my concern's and sharing my news
as defined on dictionary.com and the IMC UK Mission Statement.

Paul :^)

 http://www.world-action.co.uk/manxradio.html

link to listen on that site

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/10/278971.html

Originally from another thread above, that has been removed from the front page news wire.

I felt it nessersary to post it here to show my response to "Seeker" and all.
as someone copied the original comment made to me I will post my reply to that original comment:
============================================================
from : "IMC-UK censor threat" post thread.
===========================================================
I did not start this thread this time....
16.10.2003 01:25

This post was started by that person at the top of the posting "Concerned"
as who ever they are calls themselves.

I only post as Paul :^) providing my email address when I think it appropriate.

this person obviously felt like posting here I did not incite them to do so.
I dont no concerned at all.

Now about your comment's:

>Dr Strangelove is hiding under my bed

whats that got to do with anything?

>"Gen. Jack D. Ripper: Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously >conceived and dangerous communist plot we have ever had to face?"

who said this you? not me. wheres this come from?
I never mentioned communism ever here or ever at all on Indy Media UK or on any IndyMedia.

And what is your oppinion on water fluoridation I ask?
I do not see it as anything to do with communism or communist's.

>The reason your post was removed, I'm guessing, is because:

>1) it damages the credibility of IMC-UK as a source of serious alternative news

I don't agree with what you say there Seeker.

>2) there are serious, real issues to be dealt with

It is a serious real issue to be dealt with in my opinion.

>3) the whole chemtrail thing is a total joke

I disagree with your statement there..

>4) what you posted wasn't news

I Disagree please See Here:
These are the definition's of news as defined by dictionary.com
 http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=news

News:
1.
a.
Information about recent events or happenings, especially as reported by
newspapers, periodicals, radio, or television.

b.
A presentation of such information, as in a newspaper or on a newscast.


2.
New information of any kind:
The requirement was news to him.

3.Newsworthy material: “a public figure on a scale unimaginable in America; whatever he did was news”
(James Atlas).


If what I posted on chemtrail's didn't match what this defintion defines then feel free to Please explain to me what you consider real news?


>5) it wasn't supported with any explanation or evidence

I did not feel that it was nessersary in that first post I made
regarding the Chemtrails Cover Essex, UK - link ,which linked to that paticular news source here:
 http://www.rense.com/general43/cmmee.htm

I felt that was evidence within it self.

I had never posted, I might add, to any Indy Media Center before that first time article post.

>6) the chemtrail myth has been completely and irrefutably debunked

Just because its you and some other's see it as unreal does not mean it isn't real,
in my opinion.

so many times only >an cretin would carry on ranting about it

I disagree, I am not ranting.I am not a 'cretin' that's for sure.
I do not buy the debunking because sometimes you have to trust what you see and the countless info that backs it up. there are more website's that beleive it to be real than not, but of course i acknowledge that does not make it necessarily true.
If you were running a operation like the chemspraying you would want to cover your track's by debunking it too.

>7) I quote: "CHEMTRAILS I CAN SEE THEM IN THE SKY".
I can mate have done since the spring.

That was my second post after the first was removed.

>I can see you tearfully rocking >away in the corner,

WRONG, So wrong. what right have you got to diagnose mental health conditions?
absolutely none i reckon. i certainly wouldn't trust you to examine me.

>whispering to yourself about the voices.
more of the same nonsense as above from you 'Seeker'.

>It's nothing to be ashamed >of,
of course it nothing to be ashamed of IF IT WERE TRUE WHICH IT ISN'T!

>but you should know there are people that can help you.
oh I know that, and if I ever need help I'll ask for it,
I wont thank you for your concern as I don't appreciate it so don't don't bother!

>I suggest if you do wish to carry on with the chemtrail nonsense

as I said I don't think it's nonsese and many other people agree with me.

>you stop abusing IMC->UK

I do not think that I have abused indymedia UK at all.

>and produce a scientific, reasoned, referenced article that >will, as you mentioned, 'give the people the chance to deside for themselves'.

this is not my specialised area of knowledge so I i would not be able to accomplish such a huge task unlike the people at carnicom.com

But by pubishing a link on indymedia to a non commercial site regargding the chemtrail issue I have pprovided them with a doorway to accessing the information for the people who visit this IMC UK to do their own research and look into it more deeply if they would like to do so.


You >ranting "I CAN >SEE THEM" is a waste of everyone's time, including your own.
I did not consider it ranting. I was emphisising my opinion.


>As for the 'three stages of knowledge', no 'knowledge' stays accepted for long unless >it can be seen to be either useful or reliable, or both.

that's True there.
but, Knowledge is
 http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=knowledge

1.The state or fact of knowing.

2.Familiarity, awareness, or understanding gained through experience or study.
(This is true of my own witnessing of chemstraying and what i have seen on websites.)

3.The sum or range of what has been perceived, discovered, or learned.
(Smae for my own expeirence)
4.Learning; erudition: teachers of great knowledge.

5.Specific information about something.
(I had specific info on the fact that I had seen what I perceive to be chemtrail's and a link to another website page of a man who had specific info and evidience on chemtrail's)


>So far none of your posts move >towards that aim - in fact, they've been entirely >counter-productive.
>Seeker

Please detail how you think my post's have been counter produvctive? in what's way's?

Tom/Seeker who you gonna be next?

I sounded just like tom in my opinion just changed his name that's all.


Paul :^)



Paul :^)
e-mail:  nightwatching@yahoo.com
 http://www.my-matrix.cjb.net/

It's from Doctor Strangelove. You should see it.

Some more Gen. Ripper (Sterling Hayden) quotes:

"On no account will a Commie ever drink water, and not without good reason."

"I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids."

"Nineteen hundred and forty-six. Nineteen forty-six, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works.... Well, I, uh... I... I... first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love... Yes, a uh, a profound sense of fatigue... a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I... I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence.... can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women uh... women sense my power and they seek the life essence. I, uh... I do not avoid women, Mandrake.... But I... I do deny them my essence."

I’ve looked at a lot of the links that have been thrown around, and many of them do seem rather fanciful, but I cannot see what good is done by censoring this material. If you sift through the information, there is some worrying stuff there.

A few points:

I’m not a trained chemist, but the idea that chemtrails/contrails are nothing but condensed water doesn’t add up: surely that would mean that the aircraft’s engines were burning pure hydrogen? We know that aviation fuel is not pure hydrogen; therefore, as Jack points out, there is a potentially very serious issue about pollution here. Traffic pollution is undoubtedly linked to illness; so why the hell wouldn’t pollution dispersed from aircraft into the open sky similarly constitute a heath risk?

Secondly, we know that aerial sprays have been used: this is a matter of public record. The use of Agent Orange is well documented. There is also the case of Plan Columbia’s spraying of coca bushes with a toxin that has also been linked with health problems ( http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,508146,00.html). During the Cold War, military scientists carried out tests with aerial spraying, as these sources show:
 http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,261395,00.html
 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-441704,00.html

Now, if such experiments took place in the Cold War, and have only been confirmed relatively recently, should we take the typical liberal attitude that this kind of thing simply doesn’t take place any more? The political climate is just as volatile as it was during the Cold War, arguably more so. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the claims being made today are confirmed in thirty years time – justified, of course, as tests performed in the spirit of “anti-terrorism measures”.

It is clear that the best way to discredit a story is to associate it with the lunatic fringe of conspiracy theorists. Any truth value it contains will be negated by the context it appears in. Well, it’s pretty clear to me that I don’t have to believe in aliens or lizards or whatever else to believe there’s something dodgy about the official story of, say, the Kennedy assassination or even the Iraq War. The denial of the patently ridiculous conspiracy theory does not refute the existence of conspiracy itself. And the ruling class doesn’t have a particularly good track record where it comes to honesty. As Debord puts it,

“‘The conspiracy theory of history’ was in the nineteenth century a reactionary and ridiculous belief, at a time when so many powerful social movements were stirring up the masses. Today’s pseudo-rebels are well aware of this, thanks to hearsay or a few books, and believe that it remains true for eternity. They refuse to recognise the real praxis of their time; it is too sad for their cold hopes. The state notes this fact, and plays on it.” (Comments on the Society of the Spectacle)

Much of this chemtrails stuff strikes me as dodgy, quite possibly nonsense, but there might just be something in it: let’s open it up to debate so people can decide for themselves. To quote again, this time Dostoevsky, “Not one single truth has ever been arrived at without people first having talked a dozen reams of nonsense.”

Other useful links (no Lizards here)
 http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/FIT203Ap.html
 http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,669896,00.html
 http://home.iae.nl/users/lightnet/world/chemicaltesting.htm
 http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=1108

>Much of this chemtrails stuff strikes me as dodgy, quite possibly nonsense,
>but there might just be something in it:

that is also mostly the way I see this issue.

>let’s open it up to debate so people can decide for >themselves.
>Heraclitus Jones

I agree to that.

even I have felt some doubt regarding this issue on chemtrails' myself because of all this!

but I think something is going on up there, but what it is exactly i don't quite know for sure.

all we have are theories, disinformation mixed within those theories and debunkation.

But what's the truth?

All I did originally, that is the thing that started this whole debate off, was to post something that I felt people had the right to know about so they could look into it for themselves.

I just read today on:
 http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-uk-features/2003-October/date.html

that this IMC UK website has had post's on this issue before.

Well i never knew that until today. if that's true.

The admin Tom he just removed my post without posting a reason why on the very fist post i ever made on this issue.

that's what ended up me starting this whole thread and all the time it took to response to the other post's. i did not expect that i would have this hassle but when what you post is put into question,
( and I realise this is a news site and this part is the newswire section so only news worthy item's go here) You have to defend your right to post it as a news worthy item if you truely believe it's deserves that mark and has merit as such,
which in this case it did. like i said i never knew that other's has posted before on this same issue of the "chemtrail's" it never occured to me at all at the time.

I just thought to myself, 'I will post this news info because I am doing the right thing here letting people know about this concerning phenomenon so they can find out what it could be and start asking the right people some serious questions about it.'

I am glad it is over now.

I have had enough of talking about this issue.

but people have the right to know. indymedia was and is the ideal platform to inform people of potential threat's and hazard's to their health and safety that the mainstream media may not wish to publish/deal with.

ending this debate finally i hope.

Paul.

And I ask you kindly to Please REMEMBER this:
"The time is alway's right, to do what is right."
-Martin Luther King

so true my freind, so true.

ok I was harsh when hiding
the final debate article and when subesquently commenting on it, (well it
got unhidden anyway), but my PERSONAL opinion is that they are an urban
myth. Simple as that. Also it will take a lot of convincing from legit
sources (ie not some random geocites site, or rense et al) to get me to
think otherwise. It's not that I am against consparicy theories per se
(for example, I think there was more to 9/11 than two planes hijacked by
Islamic terrorists being crashed into the Twin Towers), but I am against
STUPID conspiracy theories (yes I know that the term stupid is open to
discussion).
Other people on this list may think differently, but as I said before,
Indymedia is meant to provide information on real issues that are not
mentioned in the mainstream media, it's not a message board for the latest
conspiracy that may or may not be true, and I do NOT appreciate being
accused of being a thought policeman, government inflitrator, or any of
that shit. You may want freedom to express that this chemtrail thing is
true, but people seem ignorant of the right of the opposing side to
express their views too (oh and before you start saying about when I hid
the debate I know I was in the wrong there, though I stand by my decision
to hide the inital posting).

As I said, a personal opinion, and it's up to the rest of the network to
decide what happens, and I will thoroughly respect their opinion, even
though I may disagree.

Yours fatihfully,
Tom Armstrong, sometimes overenthusiastic IMC admin.

Test for censorship measuresr

still testing

WE CANNOT HAVE LACK OF TRUTH.
HO TO THE POWER OF TRUTH.
FOR ONLY TRUTH MAY SET YOU FREE.
-Sitting Bull

from now on I hope that the desision to remove a post is made
by all of the volunteer's at the collective not just one person.
that's what Tom Armstrong seem's to be suggesting.
so be it.

plus a reason why whatever it is, was removed.
and a possible appeal prosedure.

Paul :^)

Thank you for your response Tom. Good to see you taking responsibility for your actions, even if you do stick by your opinion, which is fair enough.

A couple of points though:

"You may want freedom to express that this chemtrail thing is
true, but people seem ignorant of the right of the opposing side to
express their views too"

The best way for "the opposing side to express their views" is surely to allow an open debate, no? By censoring you're denying that right to everyone.

If there's an issue about the posts taking up space on the site, well I think that the stink that's been raised has caused more trouble than simply letting the odd article onto the newswire.

Besides, there aren't simply two sides in this debate. Regarding con/chemtrails, anyone who claims to 'know' something is the case is probably bullshitting (or taking a huge risk in going public, perhaps); however, anyone who claims to 'know' something isn't the case is being a little naive. As I pointed out above, I'm highly sceptical, BUT the state does has form for spraying us with crap: (probably) limited information has emerged into the public sphere after many years (just check out the links to the Guardian and Times ferchristsake - these publications are not some two-bit geocities effort).

At the very least there is an issue here about pollution. I find it odd that people who get so excited about pollution at ground level are keen to view aircraft exhaust as nothing but pretty clouds.

 http://www.jimmarrs.com/view/view060302.html

The View From Marrs


June 3, 2002

CHEMTRAILS: Covert Immunization Program or Surplus Population Reduction?



For more than 3 years now, I have heard widespread reports of aircraft leaving cross-hatching chemical trails in the sky. Being a former award-winning aviation writer, I initially wrote these stories off as reports from persons unaccustomed to the common vapor trails left in the wake of high-flying aircraft.

But now I’m not so sure.

The other morning from my front porch I watched as several jet aircraft, at least two running parallel, created tic-tac-toe patterns in an otherwise cloudless North Texas sky. I would estimate these craft at somewhere around 20,000 feet. The trails spread outward, blended, and within two hours had created a hazy cloud cover with only occasional patches of blue sky. By afternoon I was wheezing and experiencing a shortness of breath.

Most interesting was yet another jet at a much higher altitude, no less than 30,000 feet, which also led a sharply-defined condensation or vapor trail. In this case, however, the trail dissipated and totally disappeared as expected from evaporation in low humidity of North Texas. This was a true vapor trail. But what about the lower ones?

This experience brought home to me the claims of many people across the country who have reported large military-type aircraft leaving crossing trails which blend together into a cirrus cloud cover and settle to earth.

Such reports have been coming in from all over the continental 48 states for more than three years now and some of the stories I had heard came to mind. One came from a producer friend, who early in 1999 stood on a Hollywood set and watched a large tanker plane make several trips up and down the California coast leaving a trail which coalesced into a hazy cloud which drifted over Los Angeles. This was clearly not a normal point A to point B flight.

Another story came from a retired police and military pilot in Oklahoma who witnessed KC-135 and KC-10 military craft crisscrossing the sky near his home in mid-January. Later he became ill and learned from his doctor that the local hospitals were overflowing with patients suffering from flu-like symptoms. Checking with his former National Guard unit, this man was told that no one knew anything about the craft and their trails but that they had been ordered not to fly in the area of the craft on the days in question.

Even more worrisome was the report from the owner or a large Funeral Home near Dallas-Fort Worth who said deaths this February were twice as high as the same time last year with no sign of waning. Most of these were elderly person suffering from respiratory ailments. Doctors report an increasing number of respiratory ailments and one pharmacist I know told he had not seen such widespread respiratory problems in his more than 30 years of experience.

Washington reporter Mike Blair wrote in January that what has been dubbed “chemtrails” is actually “anti-bacteriological warfare chemicals being tested by the federal government.” Some of Blair’s sources told him that the covert spraying is being conducted by the super secret Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), a charge the agency’s director has denied. Considering the objections raised by members of the U. S. military who last year were ordered to undergo Anthrax inoculations coupled with the prospect of public panic, it has been theorized that the government is attempting to covertly immunize the general population. It has been reported that this program gained it legality from US Code Title 50, Section 1520, which gives the Secretary of Defense authority to order testing “involving the use of a chemical agent or biological agent on a civilian population” for research purposes.

But this theory fails when the chemical composition of the chemtrails is considered. Last April, samples from these chemtrails were analyzed by a facility in Victoria, British Columbia, which is licensed by the U. S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and found to contain in addition to JP-8 jet fuel (possibly the carrier medium which contains the additive ethylene dibromide, banned as a pesticide due to causing severe respiratory reactions even at low levels) numerous pathogens, disease causing agents. These included Pseudomonas Aeruginosa, which not only causes respiratory infection but also attacks the immunization system; Serratia Marcescens, an antibiotic-resistant bacteria which causes pneumonia, endocarditis and meningitis; as well as Streptomyces and molds capable of inducing heart disease, upper respiratory and gastrointestinal ailments.

Could this covert program be behind the Nile Flu and other respiratory outbreaks which reportedly are resisting normal treatment? And what is it’s true purpose? It seems clear that if this toxic stew of pathogens is intended as an immunization, the cure might be worst than the cause.

And when in history has an entire population been unknowingly poisoned by its own leaders while footing the bill for such an outrage?

And don’t look to the corporate-owned mass media or this year’s crop of presidential hopefuls to give us any answer to these questions. They’re too busy verbally attacking each other, bashing the Second Amendment and arguing over the Confederate battle flag in South Carolina, you know, all those big issues.


PS. Speaking of the Second Amendment (the one that gives Americans the right to own firearms, remember?), here are some intriguing statistics:

The approximately 700,000 physicians in the United States cause about 120,000 accidental deaths each year resulting in 0.171 accidental deaths per physician. The 80 million U. S. gun owners cause 1,500 accidental deaths each year representing 0.0000188 accidental deaths per gun owner.

These numbers must mean either that a doctor is approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than a gun owner or statistics can be skewed just about any way one desires.

=======================================
STOP CHEMTRAIL's Forum
 http://stopchemtrails.proboards24.com/

Ho to the power of truth aey-ho!

>Do you know what substances are officially there in aeroplane combustion trails?

please enlighten us by saying.

>I quote Ram's comments to Tom:>
>have hidden and erased many other topics and _trails_ of such action

which ones do you have the addy's please?

>because you are an >agent (implicit or explicit I do not care) of the british state.

how do you know about that? where did you get the info to come to that conclusion?
if you are going to say something then please back it up matte with some evidence.
you need fact's and evidence in any court of law if it were to stand up to the test of a jury.

>Intriguing fact is why you still take the blame
>for something you did not hide in this instance.
>ram

how do you know and again how do you prove what you claim Ram?

proof is needed to back up statements like that.

In Truth,
Paul :^)
 http://www.my-matrix.cjb.net/

Due to the fact that my girlfriend worked for British Airways until recently and also that I live in a fighter jet practice zone, I ended up becoming a bit of a sky watcher.
For years the skies were clear except for the odd contrail from a US bound plane hi up that would soon disipate into nothing after a few minutes.
In the past I had heard of chemtrails, but as I had never seen one I have to admit to being skeptical.
But then at about the same time as the recent Iraq war started, the sky over Scotland suddenly became filled with trails from planes that were seemingly coming from all directions.
At first there were parallel lines, then crosses, then little bits of rainbows on an otherwise clear day except for trails, then halos would appear around the sun, now I am seeing dark lines appearing ahead of planes that fly high up parallel to each other.
Not only that but people are developing flu like symptoms frequently.
So please Tom listen to us, or should I just pull the bed clothes over my head and go back to sleep and hope everything will be ok in the morning. It won't be!
Sorry but I can't do that, as I do not believe that my eyes are decieving me, I feel that this is a genuine problem that will not go away by itself and needs to be dealt with.
Just like G.W.Bush said about terrorism, "You are either with us or you are against us".
Tom, which side are you on? (I have picked my side, but I do not support terrorism)

Cuz.

The claim has been made, since
1997(seven years now past), that jet fuel
contains a pesticide, ethylene dibromide,
which creates "chemtrails" and makes people
ill.

If that is the case, what happens to the guy
who flags those airplanes on the runway, what
happens to the people living around the runways,
the people working at the airport, and the
mechanics who service the planes?

Besides the fact that no one promoting
the chemtrail hoax has ever come up with an
actual lab analysis proving this claim true,
over seven years now into the hoax, wouldn't
all the people mentioned above who get exposed
to jet exhaust daily be dead by now?

Use some common sense people, or have you
stared up at the clouds so long that your
brain has spilled out of your skull?

On second thought, maybe the more lucid
among you could check out the website I
created debunking the whole thing.
 http://worldzone.net/science/reality2u30/

happy trails,
Jay Reynolds