Firstly, Palestinian groups do not 'retaliate'. They put a brainwashed fanatic on a bus with as many innocent civilians as possible, and then detonate their bomb indiscriminately. The fact that they deliberately maim and murder innocent civilians is what justifiably constitutes the label of terrorism. The terrorists' name is not 'blackened' by the media, they blacken it themselves with their vile acts of hatred and violence. The irony is that these despicable acts do nothing to further the cause of the people they claim to represent. You are too stupid to realise this; you are blindly and hypocritically supporting barbarous terrorism.

If the oppressive Arab regimes did anything at all to stop and arrest the terrorists that they harbour and indeed encourage in their backward, barbaric and lawless nations, then Israel would have no need to take action to defend themselves. no country should be expected to tolerate the ruthless savagery inflicted upon Israel on a daily basis.

how can you equate the despicable murder of countless innocent civilians (including many children whose lives are now completely ruined) with 'legitimate resistance'?

Get a grip, nutter.

It's all very well to call for peace and campaign against hatred in other countries, but what about doing so closer to home? The fundamentalists at Al Muhajiroun have just posted a press release on their website ( http://www.obm.clara.net/pr/2003/un.html) effectively calling the bombings in Jerusalem and Baghdad legitimate resistance. How groups like this get away without being condemned by peace activists - and even manage to march alongside them at anti-war demos - is beyond me.

"In 1987, the Arabs living in the territories occupied by Israeli in the 6-Day war began a series of riots and violent confrontations known as the Intifadeh, a movement quite independent from PLO leadership. Soon after, Islamic militants founded the Hamas movement, which was at first given some encouragement by Israel, as a means of countering the influence of the PLO, and perhaps because the opposition of the Hamas to an international conference that would adjudicate the problem of Palestine, coincided with the policies of the Shamir government. "

Hamas would not exist if the extreme right in Israel werent , as now,trying to induce a civil war in occupied territories rather than making a just;equatable peace.So if a hamas suicide bomber strikes considerate a foreign policy "own goal".
The "backward;lawless and oppressive" governments in the arab world arent elected but imposed and subsidised by the west.They thrive by imprisoning the very muslim scholars that can preach peace with Israel...including thousands of anti-war activists.
The pin-up boy of these regimes was Saddam, his problems began when he actually stopped the rate of killing people at the pointing of the west.
Resistance campaigns by local civilians against state military world war 2 style occupations are bound to be dirty.
The French resistance was dirty;the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto was dirty (and noble)and the Palestinian Resistance is dirty.When Israeli extremists dont endow the Palestinians with Human qualities we can not have peace nor Justice nor end to outrages.

The intifada is compliant with international law and is only happening because it fills a void in the space that the international community is not fullfilling its obligations.

It is a source of great embarrashment for me to have to critisise Israel, but to do so is as anti-semetic as criticising Serbia in Bosnia was anti-slavic.

> The intifada is compliant with international law
What bullshit. Blowing up innocent civilians on buses is only compliant with international law when the terrorist-supporting state of Syria holds the rotating presidency at the UN Security Council. Oh, wait, it does! oh that's alright then! im off to blow up a Palestinian bus full of women and children! it is compliant with international law after all.

> and is only happening because it fills a void in the space that the international community is not fullfilling its obligations.
The international community is not fullfilling its obligation to murder innocent Israeli civilians on buses??!?!? oh my god! shame on the international community! what a great job Hamas is doing! lets all celebrate the murder of innocent Israelis by dancing in the streets and throwing sweets to our children, whom we so desperately want to 'martyr'.

As a sidenote, isnt it strange how the Hamas leadership pledge their unending desire for martyrdom, yet when Israel offers them this 'honour' by threatening to kill them, they disappear and hide. I guess they're generously getting out of the way so their beloved children can martyr themselves instead. yea that must be it... coz they're such nice people offering legitimate resistance... not ruthless murdering fanatical cowards at all. no.

Im glad,dear Jamie (i hope you afford me the luxury of calling you dear out of respect and endearment to a fellow human being , even though as a Muslim i may not be accorded that honour from yourself), that you concur with my view that the intifada does comply with international law.

The obligations of the international community are to enact UN resolutions and Human Rights Treaties binding that may , if enacted with goodwill end this despicable cycle of child-killing on both sides.It is Israel that cant countenance these commitments at this juncture in history more so than the Palestinians.

Im also glad that you did not counter the fact that Hamas are a left over from Israeli foreign policy that went pear shaped.

Im also disappointed that you missed the opportunity to fully agree with me that the heroic struggle of the Warsaw Ghetto resistance was a noble episode of the great Jewish history (though undoubtably dirty).
As the issue of "side issues"....why not deal with the issues in the post , like my argument that to critise Israel is as anti-semetic as critising Serbia was anti-slavic before jumping to side issues.

As there is no such thing as a cyber-helicopter gunship to threaten persons i would be greatfull if you could moderate your foul and undignified language which is a slander on your parents just like the actions of the settlers are a slander on the great Judaic Religon.

Tariq says "Hamas would not exist if the extreme right in Israel werent , as now,trying to induce a civil war in occupied territories rather than making a just;equatable peace"

I agree. Extremists only breed extremists. Both the hardline Zionists and the jehadis need each other to exist. It is a curious relationship of dependency in which each side requires an enemy with which to justify the completely unjustifiable slaughter of innocent civilians, many of which are children. Arab or Jew, they are all born of the same semitic race, share the same god, worship in remarkably similar ways, eat the same meat and have the same holy places. Why do two peoples, so similar compared to others in the world, have to kill over a very small piece of land.

Zionist and Palestinian nationalism are simply ways of dividing the same peoples. Instead of persecuting Jews, perhaps Arabs should welcome their Jewish brothers as part of their race. And instead of treating Arabs as dogs, Jews should realise and glorify the fact that another people shares their god, customs and prophets. Perhaps then they can leave aside their American-induced war and live in peace.

It is a fact that this intifada and the racist wall going up on the so-called "West Bank" should not exist.

> Im glad,dear Jamie ... that you concur with my view that the intifada does comply with international law.
err, i dont actually. as i said, murdering and maiming innocent civilians by blowing them up on buses doesn't comply with international law. I'm disappointed that you missed the opportunity to fully agree with me on this issue.

> It is Israel that cant countenance these commitments at this juncture in history more so than the Palestinians.
It is the Palestinian terrorists who blew up the bus. is this their attempt to enact UN resolutions and Human Rights Treaties with "goodwill", and fulfill their side of the Roadmap??

> why not deal with the issues in the post
I did. The idiot was trying to justify brutal murder and terrorism, that's why i argued and that's exactly what my argument was about.

> like my argument that to critise Israel is as anti-semetic as critising Serbia was anti-slavic before jumping to side issues.
Your "argument" (if u can call it that) is an irrelevant side issue. perhaps YOU should deal with the post before jumping to side issues.

> i would be greatfull if you could moderate your foul and undignified language
what foul and undignified language are u referring to????

> which is a slander on your parents
Oh, i sense u're trying to wind me up. nice try. how about the fact that your agreement with, and justification for, brutal, murderous terrorism, is a slander on your parents? are they proud or ashamed of your views?

The word "bullshit" is foul and abusive.

Israel committed 864 violations of the roadmap in the month of July , during a period of "lull" i.e. only Palestinians were killed.

As ive said before the recent suicide bombing is Shamirs legacy to Israeli and Palestinian children alike.

As ive also said before the Warsaw ghetto uprising was dirty and noble...do you concur.

Suicide bombings wont end until the occupation does....do you concur.

> The word "bullshit" is foul and abusive
whatever.

> Israel committed 864 violations of the roadmap in the month of July , during a period of "lull" i.e. only Palestinians were killed.
BULLSHIT! what's the matter, can u not argue your case without telling lies?
Attacks against Israel since road map release:  http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2003/05/48253.php
Where do u get this 864 number from? your phone number?

> As ive said before the recent suicide bombing is Shamirs legacy to Israeli and Palestinian children alike.
1. Israel didnt assist hamas, rather they ignored their formation in the hope that it would marginalise the PLO during the 1980's. yes, that plan backfired.
2. Palestinian children?? how many Palestinian children were murdered in the latest in a long line of Palestinian suicide massacres, and how many Israeli children were murdered?

> As ive also said before the Warsaw ghetto uprising was dirty and noble...do you concur
Noble - yes. Dirty - dont be ridiculous. the Jewish civilians in the ghetto fought bravely against armed nazi soldiers who were going to kill them anyway. how dare u try to equate this with the deliberate murder of innocent civilians, including children, by a fanatical coward on a bus?

> Suicide bombings wont end until the occupation does....do you concur
No i most certainly do not. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al-Aksa Murderers Brigade, amongst many others, are all sworn to Israel's complete destruction, dont u know? Suicide bombings won't end until either Israel is destroyed, or Israel wipes those murdering fanatical bastards off the face of this Earth. and Israel is not going to be destroyed.
dont tell me u dont think the world will be a better place, and the Palestinians wont have a better chance of statehood, once those ruthless and counter-productive terrorists are all dead?

Im glad the Hardest word "yes" came out to the two points i seeked concurrance for.


For what its worth to you here is my opinion on the latest sucide bombing

The horrifying suicide bombing in Jerusalem, in which dozens of innocent civians were killed and wounded, deserves to be condemned in the sharpest terms. We offer our condolences to all the bereaved families. But it is imposible to avoid also considering how did this come to happen.
The renewed cycle of bloodshed has begun with the decision of the political and military echelons to implement - in the middle of the Hudna (cease-fire) - a series of "targeted liquidations", knowing full well that that act would lead to retaliation bombings and to the breaking of the Hudna.

The perpetrators of the bombings came from Nablus and Hebron, two cities under full control of the Israeli army, and their deed of blood was committed in West Jerusalem, where the Israeli police is in charge. In none of these places does the Palestinian Authority exercise any measure of real control, and its police has no ability to operate there. The real immediate solution is to remove the IDF from the Palestinian territories and hand over full control to the Palestinian

The Palestinians did curd extremeists in the 1993-2000 years to such an extent that the Israeli economy grew by 2 and a half fold.
Unfortunately the settlement activity also increased by two and a half fold and when push came to shove Barak could not face down the extremists led by sharon and the settler constituency.

400 Palestinian children (2002) have been killed by Israeli soldiers using "legitimate" weapons such as M16,s and Tanks and Apache Helicopters.
Many Israelis have been killed by Shamirs legacy to the people of the region.Drawing a league table of such would only appeal to a persons who denies human qualities to either one or both peoples,so i will not engage in that, except to say even one is far too many.

Now that we are on "yes" terms do you concur that there can be no peace until the settlements are completely removed.

Better watch out these settlers may be in for a hard time, 250 hours community service at least.

Nine Jews arrested for terror attacks against Palestinians

By Jonathan Lis, Haaretz Correspondent



Nine Jewish men were arrested in the last few days
on suspicion of carrying out terrorist attacks
against Palestinians in recent years. One of them,
Shahar Dvir-Zeliger, is also suspected of a murder
attempt and weapons-related offenses, Jerusalem
Magistrate's Court released for publication
Friday.




For 12 years, the Shin Bet
security service failed to
expose Jewish underground
groups. Nine Palestinians were
killed in recent years in
attacks attributed to Jewish
terrorist groups, but the Shin
Bet did not have a lead in the
investigation. Only last
month's arrest of Yitzhak Pas

and Matityahu Shvu led to the exposure of this
underground group.

The remand of Jewish terror suspect Dvir-Zeliger
was extended by six days Friday. He is also
suspected of taking part in planning the
terrorist attacks and carrying them out.

On Friday, the Shin Bet and military police
arrested the soldier Yehoyariv Maguri, a
resident of a West Bank settlement, on
suspicion of being involved in the cell's
activity. The suspicions attributed to him and
to the others are still banned for
publication.

Pas and Shvu, who were caught in possession of
eight IDF explosive devices, are suspected of
planning to use the explosives in an attack on
Palestinians. The other terror suspects are
Yisachar Peretz, Sela Tor, Ronen Aroussi and
David Liebman. Tsuriel Amior, another suspect,
is under house arrest for building the
explosive used by the Bat Ayin terrorist cell
and buried about a year-and-a-half ago in East
Jerusalem's A-Tur neighborhood.

The defense establishment believes there were
two kinds of Jewish terrorist groups - one used
to shoot Palestinian vehicles in intersections,
and the other, most of whose attempts failed,
hid explosives in Palestinian schools and
crowded places.

Shin Bet sources said the underground members
were skilled snipers who acquired their skills
in firearms and explosives during their
military service. They used to spread shells of
various firearms at their attack sites, to
confuse the investigation teams.

As for your insistance that there can be only Israel or Palestine may i refer you to the History of the region from 700 AD-1900AD.
The answer is that Israelis and Palestinians are only having a blip in very good relations that are only strained when Imperialist powers (OTTOMANS;BRITISH and the US) manage to cause friction in the area for there own ends.Do you concur?

In case anyone has stumbled across this interchange here is the story so far.

Jamie and i agree that Jews are humans.
Are Palestinians humans....Jamies got a slight problem.

Despite coarse and disrespectful language jamie concurred with many of the mains points about the right to resist oppression.
But he seems to have a problem with this inalienable human right (superbly executed by the jews in the warsaw ghetto)being accorded to the palestinians.

I suppose , like the jews in the warsaw ghetto (who were sold down river by the US senate and Shamir), the palestinians have to be considered as human beings by jamie , before the likes of jamie will give then their due.

due to our guidelines we want to ask you Jamie to refrain from any more postings which are violating our guidelines in the following points:
- Language or imagery which is racist, sexist, anti-semitic, bullying, mobbing or homophobic, or in any other way discriminatory and domineering.
- Postings by individuals who have a pattern of behavior that leads to the above mentioned discouraged postings.
- In-factual or misleading reports.
- Repeated posting of any text, image or audio clip.

as well as we want also to remind you that:
The newswire is an open-publishing resource. The newswire is not intended for promotion of commercial enterprises, advertisements, religious diatribes, or as forum for sociopaths to abuse the community. To serve this end, the network is empowered to delete posts that are sexist, racist, homophobic, pornographic, fascist, or repetitive (spam).

The Scotland Independent Media Center will actively oppose racism, homophobia, classism, sexism, mobbing, nationalism, and any other form of domination and discrimination within our framework and within the framework of society.
As a collective, our attitude is assertive, and where necessary confrontational, and we will defend and keep free the space we are helping create.

> Im glad the Hardest word "yes" came out to the two points i seeked concurrance for.
take a look at the following transcript of our conversation:

tariq: "Israel committed 864 violations of the roadmap in the month of July , during a period of "lull" i.e. only Palestinians were killed."
jamie: "BULLSHIT! what's the matter, can u not argue your case without telling lies?"

tariq: "As ive also said before the Warsaw ghetto uprising was dirty and noble...do you concur"
jamie: "Noble - yes. Dirty - dont be ridiculous..."

tariq: "Suicide bombings wont end until the occupation does....do you concur"
jamie: "No i most certainly do not..."

u have a strange interpretation of the word 'no', dont ya? the only thing i agreed with was that the Jewish uprising in the Warsaw ghetto was noble. as u can see in plain english, i disagreed with all the other nonsense that u spoke.

but im glad that u completely agree with me that the world will be a better place, and the Palestinians will have a much better chance of statehood, once those ruthless and counter-productive Palestinian terrorists have been wiped out.


now, lets move on to ur next 'point'.
> The renewed cycle of bloodshed has begun with the decision ... to implement ... a series of "targeted liquidations"

in your very next sentence, u wrote:
> The perpetrators of the bombings came from Nablus and Hebron

Which bombings were they then? are u referring to the 2 Palestinian suicide bombings during their so-called 'hudna', which murdered 2 more Israeli civilians?? the ones which provoked Israel's retaliation becuase the PA refused to arrest those responsible? one of the incidents that u mention actually happened when a Palestinian terrorist violently resisted arrest, and Israeli troops were forced to shoot him. this was not a 'targeted liquidation'.

Some facts and figures for u:
****
Security officials released figures Sunday indicating the IDF has foiled some 54 terror attacks and arrested more than 100 terror suspects since the hudna was declared on June 29.

According to these figures, the number of alerts which stood at between 50 to 60 a day before the hudna, is now at about 30 a day, up by 10 from about two weeks ago.
Since the hudna, there have been about 280 different attacks, of which 192 were shooting incidents. During this period, 27 Israelis and a foreign worker were killed, and 152 people were wounded.

The security officials said that since the beginning of the hudna Israel passed on to the PA the names of 22 men in the West Bank allegedly involved in planning terror attacks. Only five of them are currently in PA jails. In Gaza, the official said, Israel passed the names of 15 terror suspects on to the PA, of which only two are now in jail.
****


> Now that we are on "yes" terms...
as i've already proven to u, we aren't. u're talking bullshit in an effort to twist the truth.

> As for your insistance that there can be only Israel or Palestine ...
yet more bullshit. when did i insist that there can be only Israel or Palestine??

> ... very good relations that are only strained when Imperialist powers ... manage to cause friction in the area for there own ends.Do you concur?
OK, read my lips, im gonna say this very clearly: NO I DO NOT CONCUR. since Israel's birth just 55 years ago, her lovely Arab neighbours have declared THREE wars on her, one of which was launched on the Jewish holy day of Yom Kippur, in a cynical attempt to take Israel by surprise. they've also kidnapped, tortured, murdered and terrorised her innocent civilians on a daily basis. the only powers causing friction in the area are the aforementioned backward, barbaric and lawless Arab nations. want names? try Iraq, Syria, Iran and Yasser Arafat.



> In case anyone has stumbled across this interchange here is the story so far.
People can read, and they can decide for themselves what the 'story so far' is. what u're actually trying to do here is twist the argument by spouting more rubbish.

> Despite coarse and disrespectful language jamie concurred with many of the mains points about the right to resist oppression.
I did? when? as already proven, i DISAGREED on all but one of your 'points', and that was that the Warsaw ghetto Jews fought a noble battle against the Nazis.

> But he seems to have a problem with this inalienable human right (superbly executed by the jews in the warsaw ghetto)being accorded to the palestinians.
Again, u equate the Jewish resistance in the Warsaw ghetto (where they fought against armed Nazi soldiers who were intent on killing them), with the brutal murder of innocent, unarmed civilians (including women, children and babies) by a fanatical terrorist on a bus. the fact that u think the 2 are morally equivalent shows how warped your view is, and how your opinion on this matter should not be taken seriously.

> the palestinians have to be considered as human beings by jamie , before the likes of jamie will give then their due.
I do consider innocent Palestinians as human. however, i consider the Palestinian terrorists as inhuman, and so should u. but u dont, and that is very troubling. until these murderous and fanatical cowards are removed, there will be no peace. u and your brethren will have to face this reality, and stop making excuses and trying to justify their vile acts of hate and murder.



PS. which part of this post do u object to, IMC? the fact that u cannot counter it with your own propaganda? so much for "left-wing" free speech.

Im glad that after a long time you have agreed to the concept of civilians resisting a brutal military occupation whether by the heroes of the warsaw ghetto or their brothers in arms in occupied territories.There is wasnt so hard ...just a little respect;justice;equity and kindness can go a long way.

My comments on the suicide bombings were directly pasted from Gush Shalom as i know that information from a mere gentille that does not tally with your hatred of peaceful co-existance is passed of as "bullshit".

So does Gush Shalom pass your "bullshit" censorship test or are they what you liberals call "self-hating jews;scum or soap".

It is hard to tell if you are a bigoted-rascist or a racist-bigot (its like trying to tell the difference between likud and labour these days).

Your selective quotations from my posts miss out everything that resembles the concept of equity...and you answer only the points that your aipac manual has ready reckoner answers for.

As for concurrance i still await if you concur if the settlements must be dismantled before we have a just peace.Dont look at your aipac manual they dont mention it....its all eretz israel to them.

Im especially glad that after a lot of foul and abusive and disrespectful language that you agree that a civilian population has the right to defend itself against state of the art tanks and planes and gunships of an occupying force.(i have never in my posts equated the defence of occupied territories with suicide bombings in Israel as we have already established the responibility of that rests with Israeli right wing foreign policy.)

The sons of Shamir will no doubt do more bombings but consider them a "gift" from the illustrious Shamir or a flip side to the occupation your so keen to defend or a "water bill" outstanding from some settlement.

As for the wars i assume you mean 1948;1967 and 1973...but why not throw in 1956 and 1982 and the recent intifada....all in all a good eason to grab peace with both hands rather than squalid arguments that justify an unsatisfactory status-quo.

As for you not concurring that imperialist powers have interupted good relation in the region...how shameful...how anti-israel to allow the christian fundamnetalists in the US to dictate the pace of events and put Israel into total dependance until its time "for them to play".

I have very much enjoyed honour the glorious resisters of the warsaw ghetto with you and to finally draw brotherhood with them and their glorious heirs in occupied palestine agianst a despicable US Senate backed enemy on both occasions.

I will be away on holiday for a few weeks ,but ,if you wish will enjoy conversing with you about resistance to tyranny from jews in the past (god bless them all ) and palestinians today (god bless the all).

If i have given the impression that any one life is of less value than another then please find it in your heart to forgive me, because to me judaism and the palestinians fall and rise together against the common enemy of pharonic projects to control mankind and cause enslavement and destruction of whole races.

Rumsfeld and his elk will never win.

SHALOM/SALAAM/GOD BLESS