Its undeniable now that the attacks on US soliders are done by saddam loyalists. When they first said that and we said stuff about orwellian propaganda it turns out we were wrong, theyre fedayeen, have released video tapes, etc. I dont see how anyone can support them. Theyre trying all sorts to create a conflict between iraqis and americans and get support so they can bring their despotic regime back to power, maybe hoping americans will be forced to pull out bcos of casualities. All leftists and anti-war ppl should again be completely neutral in this conflict between two ruling classes, and call on neither americans/brits or iraqis to fight in the interests of their masters, and for iraqis to reject the imperialists and the baathist fascists. We should expose coalition human rights abuses but not turn that into support for the baathist fascists. Its really pathetic if leftists and anti-war ppl end up cheering when americans are murdered by fascists.

 http://www.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=13506〈=en

You be neutral, the rest of us will concentrate on trying to combat UK/US imperialism.

That link you gave wasnt really that relevant. We know about the human rights abuses etc although the media isnt reporting them much (although the BBC got a tape of american soldiers saying theyd come back with tanks and destroy the village to its inhabitants if they didnt cooperate), and I said that anti-war ppl etc should expose all that.

How can you not be neutral in the fight between saddam fascists and us/uk imperialists? The left should oppose both for what they are, and not give some kind of disguised support for baathist fascists in the name of 'anti-imperialism'. The fedayeen have released videos and talked to journalists about what theyre doing. The (or vast majority of the) attacks on americans are by these secret police and loyalist remnants and support for them in the name of anti-imperialism is completely ridiculous. Same goes for any islamic fundamentalists who might be fighting the us/uk in the name of setting up their own despotic state.

So the people fighting the Americans are "saddam fascists" got any evidence for that except for Donald Rumsfeldts latest speech have we?

Socialists are not neutral between the occupiers and the occupied. Do you really think the left shold take the ssame attitude to the Israeli occupation of Palestine?

Still if you are looking for an excuse to do nothing about the occupation you have come up with a great rationale, have fun sitting at home feeling superior!

Sonic, how about the fact that saddam fedayeen have released videos threatening stuff, boasting of their attacks, avowing revenge after death off saddams sons, etc. Journalists have talked to people claiming to be fedayeen carrying out attacks on americans. Saddam (allegedly) has issued tapes talking about resistance and so on. The fact is that when his regime fell, all these people disappeared without a trace, and almost immediately organised resistance by trained men with rocket launchers, grenades, guns, and so on, appeared and began attacking americans.

"Still if you are looking for an excuse to do nothing about the occupation you have come up with a great rationale, have fun sitting at home feeling superior!"

Great a stupid statement trying to insult me or something, did I ever say anything about doing nothing about the occupation and feeling superior??? I said that both sides should be opposed and as you call yourself a socialist I'm suprised you dont agree with me immediately. When the us/uk invaded iraq, did you support saddam troops fighting the invasion?? Or did you remain neutral and oppose both the imperialists and the mini-imperialist baathist fascist state like any sane person would?? Opposing both doesnt mean you dont oppose the imperialists as well fool.

"Socialists are not neutral between the occupiers and the occupied. Do you really think the left shold take the ssame attitude to the Israeli occupation of Palestine? "

No but if Palestine was a totalitarian fascist state and Israel invaded it and then the secret police remnants began attacking israelis with hopes of reestablishing their totalitarian fascist state then I generally would hope that no leftist would raise slogans about victory to the resistance or something, or turn opposition to israeli expansionism into support for totalitarian enemies of the palestinians (btw thats a completely made up example irrelevant to actual israel-palestine).

Iraqis have to get rid of both the imperialists and fascists.

btw an example, would you support the islamic fundamentalists in their fight against the soviet invasion of afghanistan in the name of anti-imperialism?? Or would you call for both to be opposed, even though one was the occupier and the other the occupied?

"did I ever say anything about doing nothing about the occupation and feeling superior??? I said that both sides should be opposed"

Now thats neat, you have absolultely no idea who is involved in the Iraqi resistance (I dont either but at least I know what I dont know)

I support the right of people to fight colonialism, Its called the right of nations to self-determination, a guy called lenin came up with it, you may have heard of him?

For all practical purposes your attitude means doing nothing (perhaps showing up on a march to tell the uninterested marchers why you are not marching)

Stay at home and stay smug, perhaps write a letter to the people of Iraq saying you are very sorry about them being occupied but until they come up with a resistance movement that you feel comfortable with (perhaps an eco-friendly feminist type of army that recycles it's bullets and is kind to whales) they will unfortunatly have to do without your support.

I doubt they will be very upset.

"I support the right of people to fight colonialism, Its called the right of nations to self-determination, a guy called lenin came up with it, you may have heard of him? "

Oh yeah Lenin, the guy who led the Bolshevik counter-revolution, created a despotic party dictatorship enslaving all the russias, and destroyed the revolutionists of kronstadt, the ukraine, and elsewhere. And besides, I doubt Lenin was the one who invented the 'right of nations to self-determination'.

Theres not much point arguing with you anymore, you're going round in dogmatic circles. I went on the anti-war marches and protests- like I said, I oppose both sides. Didn't you see all the iraqi exile signs saying 'no saddam no bush' etc? Its absolutely ridiculous to support tyrants and fascists in the name of anti-imperialism, and absolutely typical of leninist dogma and opportunism. And btw this 'resistance movement' is not one of the iraqi people but of fascists wanting to reestablish their dictatorship, and who have no popular support.

btw I suggest you look at some stuff on leninism and the russian revolution, eg.

 http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/russia_wsm.html

or the anarchist faq.

As everyone on the left and in the US government debates and wonders who exactly the Iraqi resistance is made up of you blithly say:

"And btw this 'resistance movement' is not one of the iraqi people but of fascists wanting to reestablish their dictatorship, and who have no popular support"

You obviously have sources of information that no-one else has, can you perhaps share them with us lesser mortals? or is it just you picking the conclusion that suits you?

If you go to Reuters website you can watch a video of people dancing round a blown-up US army truck.

But no doubt they are all fascists.............

Well if at least the majority of these well-organised attacks on americans arent fedayeen its a bit strange that people claiming to be fedayeen and claiming to be carrying out the attacks keep making videos and issuing threats and so on. Iraqis not liking the occupiers doesnt translate into support for the reinstitution of the baathist fascist regime, which is the goal of the fedayeen.

Consider the vague alternative theory which you are suggesting; straight away after the fall of the old regime, and when the fedayeen, republic guard elites, etc all fade away into the background, well-organised attacks on americans begin. What is more likely, that the saddamist have just disappeared and that somehow a well prepared non-saddamist resistance group has created itself pretty much immediately? or that the saddam loyalists are fighting a guerrilla war for their regime back? They might exploit iraqi hatred of americans, but they are just another ruling class fighting to rule over the iraqi people.

...devil and deep blue sea thought responsible ...

No, I would not give my support to islamic fundamentalists fighting the soviets in afghanistan - although the amerikans did and look what it produced, the worst most sadistic ignorant regeim ... ever reported by the western media ... when it suits them!

I might give my support to Afghani islamic fundamentalists fighting the soviets in afghanistan ... it's up to them how they want to motivate themselves to through off invaders.

The same goes for Iraq.

Whilst I and many others, hated the sort of dictator that, again, the amerikans created for the p[eople of Iraq, and as much as I would not want to see their return ... the Iraqi people have a right to defend their territory against invaders ... and I have a duty to support their efforts.

What is the alternative?

Another puppet regeim, stripped of meaningful power and hell bent on concentrating on guarding the exit routes for Iraqs national & natural resources?

It would be much better for the people, and the rest of the world if amerika got a real bloody nose - and I hope, the grunts on the ground politically coagulating like they did in the 70's to oppose the imperialist dogma that put them [there] - in that way it would make it easier for other oppressed peoples to throw off their colonial/neo colonial imperialists and the amerikan agenda that put them there.

Seems like two options are unfolding for the people of Iraq though - an amerikan commercial dictatorship or a shite fundamentalist dictatorship.

Perhaps then the people of Iraq might remember saddam and his nationalist/socialist dictatorship a little more fondly and dream of a time when a real ethical choice can be grabbed hold off ... I know I am.

You got to remember what live would be like if these resistance groups SUCCEDE. If the religious fundalmentalists managed to reclaim Afghanistan, they would then force their fundalmentailism onto others. And say the pro-Saddam groups got rid of the Yanks, or worse Saddam was restored (not likely, but what if), could you imagine what the consequences for the Iraqis could be?

I hate the occupation as much as you do, but I don't see good guy or bad guys in this conflicts, as one is a bad as the other.

... I don't disagree ...

.. but given the options of saddam, bush or an ayhtolla (spelling boy spelling!) ...

It's a tough choice. Either way, the amerikans don't belong there and have no right to the resources there.

Whatever the people of Iraq can arrange, however repugnant to our safe little existance, is what is needed at the moment, and if, as we have been told, 60% want a islamic state similar to that of Iran - well why not? Iran is becoming more open and secular - although in fits and starts, generated as much by progressive thinking as it is by demonstration.

And if the other 40% are divided between saddam and some other minor bit players and want to slug it out with the amerikans first - well there is not a lot we can do about it now.

Better the amerikan invaders retreat with their tails between there legs and the average grunt to realise that fragging is their best option - in the short and long term -, at least then we might get a few years breathing space to forge the kind of world we want as the amerikan public real from another foreign policy disaster ... and then promply forget about it, consumed in another smug n' shrill episode of manipulation and hysteria.

Wish there was a better outcome for the people of Iraq and the world though ...

And to any amerikan grunts out there - who by some amazing turn is actually reading this - still your best option is to listen to the voice of war weary anarchists through out the last century when they suggested that they should .. shoot the officers, not the 'enemy'!