The "NOW INDEFINITE" war in Iraq was always going to be indefinite as with the war against the government of Afghanistan. In that case there wasn't even any pretense of introduding democracy.

I agree that we should carry on protesting against the war and occupation. However many of us are getting tired of doing it every other weekend and some seem to have have given up.

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FAIR TRIAL OR FREEDOM for ALL prisoners held without trial in GUANTANAMO BAY (or anywhere else).
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Brian: " The "NOW INDEFINITE" war in Iraq was always going to be indefinite as with the war against the government of Afghanistan. "

JA: Of course, you are right. But, it was only recently that the U.S. govt *admitted* this.

Brian: "In that case there wasn't even any pretense of introduding democracy."

JA: Au contraire, Brian: the U.S. govt propaganda virtually promised a democratic utopia in Afghanistan, with women, too, sans burkas, intermixed at every level of Afghan society and government. Indeed, you could have pictured, by U.S. propaganda, more women in a new post-war Afghan parliament, than in the American Congress!


Brian: "I agree that we should carry on protesting against the war and occupation. However many of us are getting tired of doing it every other weekend and some seem to have have given up."

JA: Well, maybe there are every-other-weekend marches and demonstrations somewhere in England, but they had come to a dead stop in the U.S.. In the U.S. marches were *very* important because Bush said that "America speaks with one voice"--*HIS*--and the compliant U.S. stenographic media duly wrote that. Mass demonstrations in the U.S. were the only way to convey to the country--and the world--that *NO* the U.S. does not speak with one voice--*Bush's*--but that many Americans, hundreds and hundreds of thousands, speak with one voice--that of most of the *people* of the rest of the world in saying *NO* to the Anglo-American imperialist, corporate, oil war!!

There is a massive planned anti-war march on September the 27th in London which will go from Hyde Park to Trafalgar Square against the allied occupation of Iraq! Full details of that are on  http://www.stopwar.org.uk

Why March? To most people the war is over & the demo will be (saving a new war by September) just the hardcore Left with a few hangers on..you'd be lucky to get 15 thousand..its all really down to the need by the SWP to be 'seen' to be doing 'something' its all about recruitment to the SWP not fighting the war..

whilst the war hasn't finished etc, there is not a lot can be done for the 50,000 dead civillians and soldiers (forced to 'fight') in iraq.

stop the next wars!

stop the arming of child soldiers!

stop the landmines!

SHUT DOWN DSEi!!!!!!!!!!!

The Defence Systems Exhibition international, being held in the London docklands in early September is Europe's largest arms fair. It is an event where the relationship between capitalism and war becomes clear and explicit. To close down this event would mean so much more than having another march. Fed up with being ignored? Try taking some direct action.

quote from earlier comment: "the demo will be (saving a new war by September) just the hardcore Left with a few hangers on.."

Folks, whatever else you do, let's at least prove that wrong. Sign up for Sep 27 now!

Adam: "Why March? To most people the war is over..."


JA: NOT IN THE U.S.!--I ASSURE YOU, ADAM, NOT WITH SONS AND HUSBANDS AND FATHERS BEING KILLED EVERY DAY IN EXPLOSIONS IN TWO'S AND FEWS, NOT TO MENTION THE - EVEN MORE - MAIMED AND WOUNDED "QUIETLY EVACUATED FROM THE SCENE" IN A WAR THAT BUSH HAD CONCLUDED WAS LONG *OVER*!

YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE BEREAVED OR FRIGHTENED MOTHERS AND WIVES ON AMERICAN TV WEARILY ASKING WHY THEIR HUSBANDS AND SONS ARE STILL DYING OR BEING WOUNDED - OR WHY THEY ARE EVEN STILL OVER THERE.

YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE SOLDIERS ON AMERICAN TV SAYING THAT THEY DIDN'T SIGN UP FOR THIS: A PROLONGED GUERILLA WAR BY A PEOPLE WHO QUITE APPARENTLY DON'T WANT FOREIGN TROOPS OCCUPYING THEIR COUNTRY AND CONFISCATING ITS RESOURCES.

NO, ADAM, YOU ARE *QUITE* MISTAKEN: TO MOST PEOPLE IN THE U.S., THEY KNOW THAT THE WAR IN *NOT* OVER. THAT'S WHY I WROTE THE CALL TO "PEOPLE POWER" ARMS ABOVE.


Adam: "...& the demo will be (saving a new war by September) just the hardcore Left with a few hangers on..you'd be lucky to get 15 thousand..its all really down to the need by the SWP to be 'seen' to be doing 'something' its all about recruitment to the SWP not fighting the war.."


JA: I CAN ASSURE YOU, THE MANY MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IN THE U.K. AND U.S. WHO MARCHED BEFORE THE WAR STARTED WERE *NOT* JUST, AS YOU PUT IT, "THE HARDCORE LEFT."

THE BEREAVED AND FRIGHTENED MOTHERS AND WIVES, AND THE DEMORALIZED AND WEARY SOLDIERS IN IRAQ, LATELY SHOWN *EVEN* NOW ON AMERICAN TV ARE NOT "THE HARDCORE LEFT."

AND WHILE I HAVE NO POLITICAL PROBLEM WITH "THE HARCORE LEFT", YOUR ATTEMPT TO SLUR PEOPLE BY BRUSHING THEM *ALL* AS JUST "THE HARDCORE LEFT AND A FEW HANGERS ON" SHOWS HOW BLIND YOU ARE TO WHAT IS GOING ON.

IF, AT LEAST, THE LIVES OF AMERICAN/BRITISH SOLDIERS - WHO ARE NATIONALISTICALLY (AND OFTEN RACISTLY) SEEN AS WORTH MUCH *MORE* THAN THE LIVES OF IRAQIS - ARE STILL COMING HOME - DEAD - IN A CONTINUING GUERLLA WAR, COME SEPTEMBER, COSTING *HUNDREDS* OF BILLIONS IN DOLLARS AND POUNDS (STEALING FROM DOMESTIC PUBLIC SERVICES), YOU WILL SEE 10 TO 20 - EVEN 30 - **TIMES** AS MANY AMERICANS AS "15,000" AT ANY GIVEN MAJOR ANTI-WAR MARCH IN NEW YORK, CHICAGO, WASHINGTON, LOS ANGELES, SAN FRANCISCO, AND, I HOPE, AGAIN, A FEW MILLION PEOPLE IN LONDON.

"Au contraire, Brian: the U.S. govt propaganda virtually promised a democratic utopia in Afghanistan"

I didn't know that.

As for marches in the U.S., I think it was good that there were marches at all. From what I could tell I think it was more difficult because of the climate there (more pressure to be patriotic perhaps).

Adam: "Why March? To most people the war is over..."
Perhaps that's why we need to continue protesting, to point out that it's not over and make it visible.

"AND WHILE I HAVE NO POLITICAL PROBLEM WITH "THE HARCORE LEFT", YOUR ATTEMPT TO SLUR PEOPLE BY BRUSHING THEM *ALL* AS JUST "THE HARDCORE LEFT AND A FEW HANGERS ON" SHOWS HOW BLIND YOU ARE TO WHAT IS GOING ON. "

I have to admit I was wondering whether to feel slurred when I read this. However maybe it is more constructive for us to be make a more positive response to messages like this. We could point out that that point of view is a bit cynical and try to encourage each other to do something when we can. I certainly don't feel that I fit into either categorisation of hardcore left (or left at all) or a hanger on.

P.S. JA - All caps is more difficult to read.

C'mon get realistic! Hopefully there will not be a further country attacked by september but if not what i said is true: ask most normal (non-hardcore Left) people about whether we are in the midst of a war and they will say "er, no mate" try it if you dont believe me!
Given that the SWP and Muslim Association of Britain (the british arm of the Muslim Brotherhood) have announced that they will be jointly standing in elections in 2004 do you not think they need to be seen to be 'doing something'?
Why should ordinary activists in this case act as donkey fodder for the SWP/MAB's electoral ambitions (which given im not a sexist or homophobe i wouldnt support anyway..oh & please dont say 'you're an islamophobe why? because i believe in women & gay equality??)..and they are already confirmed reports of SWP/MAB physical thuggery against activists who want to keep the focus on antiwar rather than electoral action...
Dont be a mug: instead of being the SWP's patsy why not organise some usefull local activity on the day...

"...the problem in the STWC is that it is self-evident that, for all our achievements, we DID NOT STOP THE WAR, and people are rightly asking now: how can we do better in the future? To which the SWP can only answer: LET'S DO MORE OF THE SAME!

Large-scale demos and rallies top-heavy with speakers are the SWP's preferred type of activity because these activities lend themselves to top-down control and offer the best ponds in which to fsh for new members."

I'll be down the DSEi, methinks!

The demo on September 27th is not just another anti-war demo it is against the allied occupation of Iraq. Since the so called end of the war hundreds of Iraqi civilians have been shot, injured and killed by allied forces and a massive campaign of guerrilla resistance against the occupation has broken out! Iraq has become the new Vietnam with Amnerican and British forces coming under daily guerrilla bombardment and ambushes and the country becoming more and more unstable by the day.

The root of most of the problems in the world is the arms trade. They provide the means for governments and corporations to oppress and terrorise. They are the cynical bastards who sell arms to all sides in this global war, reaping bigger and bigger profits as the conflagration spreads. Their actions are akin to throwing petrol on a smouldering human bonfire (bone-fire). They have close links to everything that is bad in this world and manage to carry on in virtual obscurity because their customers are governments, dealing in secret with public money. Wasting resources that could be spent on cleaning, feeding and educating this dying planet many times over.

The Iraq war was, in part, a gruesome advert for the latest weapons. The interests that are profiting from this war, are very close to the UK and US governments. This must stop.

We need to raise this issue high into the public awareness - these bastards must be made to pay for the damage they have wrought. "Defence" spending must be reduced massively. Stringent controls must be put on weapons exports. Workers (especially graduates - who have more of a choice, and without whom new weapons could not be designed) must be made to see that working for these devils is unacceptable. Make a pariah out of anyone who gives their time to this hideous industry.

We need a peaceful army to go DSEi and shut it down.

Throw the bastards out of town.

Demonstrations can be a great morale boost for activists, and are the perfect antidote to the idiots who accuse us of appeasing terrorists or try to tell us the war is over and we're too late. The Feb 15th march certainly goes down as one of the high spots of my life so far.

But what do demos really achieve, apart from a minute of footage on the telly and a chance for famous people to preach to the converted? Just going on lots of marches only really seems to tire people out, and the government certainly don't seem to take any notice. There are plenty of other things we should be concentrating on at the moment - produce leaflets and hand them out to people, publish information on the web to counter the spin from the pro-war media, invite people who have been to Iraq to come to your town to speak, challenge MP's to a public debate, get the ordinary people in the street to THINK for themselves about what's going on and what's going wrong in the world. Wake people up to the crimes of the politicians and the arms and oil dealers, and we could be seeing a regime change at home.

Having said that, I'll see you all in London on 27th September.

Adam: "ask most normal (non-hardcore Left) people about whether we are in the midst of a war and they will say "er, no mate" try it if you dont believe me!"

JA: Why don't you try asking most Americans?--soldiers and populace. And if there is an expanding guerilla war throughout Iraq to the British areas, you will soon get a different answer (other than the one you claim) from Brits too--soldiers and populace.


Adam, for someone who paints himself as such a champion--a *conservative* champion at that!--of women and, in particular, gay rights, you are certainly deep into *THE CLOSET*. Why not just come out and say, "I'm an inbred Arabphobic conservative nationalist, and I believe in the 'white man's burden' to civilize non-white countries, and I'm *FOR* war and Anglo-American military occupation in Iraq--and anywhere else in the Arab/nonwhite world where we need to go conquer (as Bush says in his infantile cartoon language) 'The Evil Doers'. And, yes, I'm on some self-absorbed anti-SWP and anti-MAB kick to distract you. I'll even accuse SWP/MAB of 'physical thuggery against activists who want to keep the focus on antiwar rather than electoral action'."

ADAM, ARE YOU A *ZIONIST* TOO? IS *THAT* WHAT'S BEHIND ALL OF YOUR OBVIOUSLY BIASED, VISCERAL ANIMOSITIES?

I KNOW THAT THE WAR AGAINST IRAQ, IN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION'S LIKUDNIK MENTALITIES, WAS AS MUCH A SURROGATE WAR FOR ISRAEL, LEADING TO SHARON'S AND ISRAEL'S 'FINAL SOLUTION' OF 'THE PALESTINIAN PROBLEM', AS IT WAS THE AMERICAN WAR FOR CORPORATE AND OIL PROFITS.

Adam, you should go online, or go to a library, and read the "Week in Review" section of Sunday's (July 20) New York Times -- typically one of the media organs of the U.S. government/establishment or, more accurately, of it's two major duopolistic parties and their major subfactions. (I.e., the article, now questioning the war in Iraq, probably represents some growing split in the U.S. ruling class over the [lack of] achievements of the war and who, politically, led us there. Recriminations, no doubt, to follow.) The title of that section said, "Remaking History: Britain Tried First. Iraq Was No Picnic Then."

[The fist three paragraphs said:]

"The public, the distinguished military analyst wrote from Bagdad, had been led "into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honor."

"The have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information," he said. "The Bagdad communiqués are belated, insincere, incomplete. Things have been far worse than we have been told, our administration more bloody and inefficient than the public knows."

He added: "We are today not far from a disaster."

Sound familiar?

That was T.E. Lawrence--"Lawrence of Arabia"--writing in The Sunday Times of London on August 22, 1920, about the British occupation of what was then called Mesopotamia. And he knew.

[A later paragraph said:]

The British came into Bagdad on March 11, 1917 with a speech that could have been written today: "Our armies do not come into your cities and lands as conquerors or enemies, but as liberators!" Well, not quite.

[The last paragraph said:]

The larger army could be demoralized and worn down, its patrols and sentries made nervous and drawn, waiting for the next attack and never sure from where it would come. It is a feeling the weary soldiers of the U.S. Third Infantry Division are coming to know well.

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What I want to know is *WHY* would Britain ever want to militarily go *BACK* into the Middle East again?--amongst people who hate outsiders directly trying to militarily occupy them even more than anything/anyone else! It's the ONE thing that surely, eventually, unites them. Didn't Britain learn its imperialist-colonialist lesson enough the first time? Or is Poodle Blair (let's call him PB from now on) actually relying on *George Bush(!)* for mental judgement!?


Finally, the purpose of mass demonstrations is not only to try to stop an immoral war that a government, or two, are *HELLBENT* on starting, but to show the nation and the world that when the cynical head of a government says that the people of his/her country speak with just one voice--*HIS*--that he is wrong and lying. (But we don't know: the mass demos might have put the brakes on the U.S.-U.K. from perpetrating an even more tragic, overt, semi-genocidal, Vietnam-style carpetbombing war. Anti-Vietnam War domestic mass demos at one point prevented a resurgence of it, back then.)

Periodic mass demos in different cities show that many--if not all--of the people speak with the mass voice of the people of the rest of the world--against an immoral, deceitful and manipulative war! It shows mass dissent where the corporate mainstream media--especially in the U.S.--would otherwise report none, or trivialize the numbers. George Bush and Tony Blair and the other jingoistic, militaristic pro-war heads of state have catalyzed an international mass peace movement: It's the gleaming, bright, silver lining in their dark clouds of war. And, of course, marching is *NOT* the only thing one should do. Yes, there is more to an anti-war movement than demos alone. Marching is just one major tool of mass dissent.

if you really have to exist in fear of offending the pigs I suggest you leave being a censor and go for hill walk or something and try and get some strength in to you.
DSEi must be stopped. period.

what can we do for iraq now? not too much.
the US wants to pull out of iraq themselves anyway. they want to send in the UN now their guys are being killed every day. and personally, i think the UN or someone has to be there for a wee while yet.

so what can a march do?

make one of them resign at the best. great. what then? no change for sure.

we can tackle the problem - the incubator of death - head-on in london in september, but not on the march of the 27th.

SHUT DOWN DSEi!

www.dsei.org seems to be a good place to start.

I agree with Adam
After the 2 million march in London that should have been it. It shpould have been organising in the streets. Not in London. The following marches where all about the SWP. We need to organise in our own areas. This is what SWP are afraid of getting the working class involved.

eddie: "We need to organise in our own areas. This is what SWP are afraid of getting the working class involved."

JA: THEN *DO* IT!!

ORGANIZE IN YOUR OWN TOWN AND DO YOUR OWN THANG!

AIN'T NO ONE GOT A MONOPOLY ON STRATEGY, TACTICS, ANALYSIS, IDEAS, CONCEPTS, CITIES, OR VISION!!

Parliament are actually trying to close down the parliament square protest with new legislation. It's there 24/7, thanks to Brian Haw and the Global Women's strike have an open mic picket every wednesday and thursday from 5.30 to 7pm. Last night there were speakers from the Iraqi Women's League, the African liberation movement, a girl who was at the WTO protests in Seattle and others.

i was in court on friday for the may 1st demonstartion and my new bail condition is that I do not go "Within one square mile radius of the excell centre docklands on 8-12 september" hows that for democracy??

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