SWP Physically Attack Antisexists & Antihomophobes
Oria | 14.07.2003 14:22
PHYSICAL ATTACK ON OPPONENTS AT 'MARXISM' 2003
A personal statement from Mark Fischer and James Bull of the Communist Party
of Great Britain
July 11, 2003
Comrades and friends,
We were physically attacked outside the morning plenary session of 'Marxism'
by up to seven members of the Socialist Workers Party. The attack was
preceded by orchestrated haranguing of us because of the content of a
leaflet we have distributed at this year's conference, 'The SWP's Clause 4
moment? No compromise on sexism and homophobia' (see www.cpgb.org.uk).
The actual attack was pretty limp and unserious. As far as either one of us
are aware, the SWPers did not actually manage to get a blow in on us, even
if that had been their intention. Instead, were attacked from various angles
by SWP comrades intent on tearing leaflets out of our hands, ripping up our
papers etc. While this led to some pretty comical-looking wrestling, only
people's dignity really took any sort of knock.
We believe the incident is serious for other reasons, however:
1. We suspect it was an attack effectively sanctioned by leading members of
the SWP. As we were getting papers and leaflets out of bags, comrade
Chris Bambery approached and told us that he would "take no
responsibility for what my members do to you today" because of their
supposed outrage at "the shite" in our leaflet. This is unacceptable, of
course. We think it is a requirement of the leadership of this organisation
to condemn physical
attacks on political opponents in the movement - including ones undertaken
by their own membership. Unless this is forthcoming, the movement is
justified in the presumption that the SWP actually *support* the resolution
of
political differences with fists and boots. The group did have a reputation
for this
sort of thuggery in the 1980s and 1990s, but its culture seemed to have to
moved on since its involvement in the Socialist Alliance.
2. It seems to us that the attack had all the hallmarks of an *organised*
provocation, not the spontaneous explosion of outrage comrade Bambery darkly
warned us of. The initial attack was led by women members, with a
tight ring of their male comrades around them. Both of us heard warnings
from the men - as *we* were being attacked! - along the lines of "don't you
touch her!" So, the plan was - women attack the two men, in the course of
the struggle to defend themselves the men do something against a woman that
then 'justifies' the blokes wading in.
3. Some SWPers actually took our leaflets, some bought papers. The snarlers
(not all of whom took part in the attack) were essentially middle cadre
SWPers, people who were not interested in what we *had* said in our leaflet,
what our arguments actually were. Instead, we had their faces - purple with
hyped-up rage in some cases - pushed into ours, their fingers jabbing our
chests and variations on two key accusations repeated at ear-splitting
volume: -
* "You call the SWP sexists and homophobes"
The leaflet actually warns that the SWP leadership is in danger of a
"*compromise* on sexism and homophobia" due to their pursuit of an
opportunist electoral alliance with a section of the mosque, not that the
*SWP* is a sexist or homophobic organisation. The leaflet states clearly
that "SWP comrades have a passionate commitment to the rights of women, gays
and lesbians - are these simply 'shibboleths' to be downplayed for electoral
expediency?"
* "You are *racists*. You don't want Muslims in the movement"
The leaflet actually underlines that "to march alongside those mobilised by
the mosque against the US-UK warmongering is good politics. What we object
to is not unity in action with non-working class forces, but the watering
down or abandoning of our *principles* for temporary advantage".
Of course, what we had actually *said* or believed was irrelevant. A layer
of SWP hacks had been mobilised (by elements in the leadership?) to try to
prevent critics of their organisation's dangerous new turn having *any* sort
of hearing.
3. This has dangerous implications for the Socialist Alliance project.
Already, we have seen the SWP 'clean sweep' in Birmingham and a partially
successful attempt to remove dissenters from positions of authority on the
SA executive. Are we now to expect that anyone who raises criticisms of
the SWP's new orientation to be physically assaulted and removed from
positions
of authority or perhaps from the alliance altogether? After all, apart from
indies such as Steve Godward, groups like Workers Power and the Alliance for
Workers Liberty also have their criticisms of the SWP's new orientation -
are they next for the rough stuff?
4. The last thing we would like to emphasise is that the SWP's violent
hysteria flows from a profound political weakness. If the organisation was
actually confident about its politics and the alliance with the mosques, why
react in such a brittle way to criticisms? The SWP leadership is aware that
in terms of Marxist principle and the history of our movement, it is skating
on very thin ice. *That* is why it is trying to paint any criticism, any
dissent as an act of "racism", something that must be met with physical
attacks and censorship.
As far as we are concerned, that can never work of course. We have the
*Weekly Worker*, we have our website, etc. The leaders of the SWP can never
shut us up. The people who ought to be really worried are SWPers themselves.
Is this the sort of reaction *you* comrades can expect when you develop
different ideas, when - horror! - you actually have temerity to *voice*
those criticisms? Be warned. Once you allow censorship against others, it is
only a matter of time before you feel the gag yourself.
For open debate!
Against violence and intimidation in the workers' movement!
Mark Fischer/CPGB London
James Bull/CPGB Manchester
POSTER ADDS:
whilst im not a CPGBer or a Trot im sickend that the SWP have started beating people up just because unlike the SWP they believe in womens & gays rights. This PHYSICAL attack is on top of the thuggery (INCLUDING physical) that the SWP try and dole out in Birmingham..rather than hand out leaflets like the poor saps above its about time that activists refused to be cowered just because the SWP scream 'racist' & 'islamophobe' every time people stand up to them...
A personal statement from Mark Fischer and James Bull of the Communist Party
of Great Britain
July 11, 2003
Comrades and friends,
We were physically attacked outside the morning plenary session of 'Marxism'
by up to seven members of the Socialist Workers Party. The attack was
preceded by orchestrated haranguing of us because of the content of a
leaflet we have distributed at this year's conference, 'The SWP's Clause 4
moment? No compromise on sexism and homophobia' (see www.cpgb.org.uk).
The actual attack was pretty limp and unserious. As far as either one of us
are aware, the SWPers did not actually manage to get a blow in on us, even
if that had been their intention. Instead, were attacked from various angles
by SWP comrades intent on tearing leaflets out of our hands, ripping up our
papers etc. While this led to some pretty comical-looking wrestling, only
people's dignity really took any sort of knock.
We believe the incident is serious for other reasons, however:
1. We suspect it was an attack effectively sanctioned by leading members of
the SWP. As we were getting papers and leaflets out of bags, comrade
Chris Bambery approached and told us that he would "take no
responsibility for what my members do to you today" because of their
supposed outrage at "the shite" in our leaflet. This is unacceptable, of
course. We think it is a requirement of the leadership of this organisation
to condemn physical
attacks on political opponents in the movement - including ones undertaken
by their own membership. Unless this is forthcoming, the movement is
justified in the presumption that the SWP actually *support* the resolution
of
political differences with fists and boots. The group did have a reputation
for this
sort of thuggery in the 1980s and 1990s, but its culture seemed to have to
moved on since its involvement in the Socialist Alliance.
2. It seems to us that the attack had all the hallmarks of an *organised*
provocation, not the spontaneous explosion of outrage comrade Bambery darkly
warned us of. The initial attack was led by women members, with a
tight ring of their male comrades around them. Both of us heard warnings
from the men - as *we* were being attacked! - along the lines of "don't you
touch her!" So, the plan was - women attack the two men, in the course of
the struggle to defend themselves the men do something against a woman that
then 'justifies' the blokes wading in.
3. Some SWPers actually took our leaflets, some bought papers. The snarlers
(not all of whom took part in the attack) were essentially middle cadre
SWPers, people who were not interested in what we *had* said in our leaflet,
what our arguments actually were. Instead, we had their faces - purple with
hyped-up rage in some cases - pushed into ours, their fingers jabbing our
chests and variations on two key accusations repeated at ear-splitting
volume: -
* "You call the SWP sexists and homophobes"
The leaflet actually warns that the SWP leadership is in danger of a
"*compromise* on sexism and homophobia" due to their pursuit of an
opportunist electoral alliance with a section of the mosque, not that the
*SWP* is a sexist or homophobic organisation. The leaflet states clearly
that "SWP comrades have a passionate commitment to the rights of women, gays
and lesbians - are these simply 'shibboleths' to be downplayed for electoral
expediency?"
* "You are *racists*. You don't want Muslims in the movement"
The leaflet actually underlines that "to march alongside those mobilised by
the mosque against the US-UK warmongering is good politics. What we object
to is not unity in action with non-working class forces, but the watering
down or abandoning of our *principles* for temporary advantage".
Of course, what we had actually *said* or believed was irrelevant. A layer
of SWP hacks had been mobilised (by elements in the leadership?) to try to
prevent critics of their organisation's dangerous new turn having *any* sort
of hearing.
3. This has dangerous implications for the Socialist Alliance project.
Already, we have seen the SWP 'clean sweep' in Birmingham and a partially
successful attempt to remove dissenters from positions of authority on the
SA executive. Are we now to expect that anyone who raises criticisms of
the SWP's new orientation to be physically assaulted and removed from
positions
of authority or perhaps from the alliance altogether? After all, apart from
indies such as Steve Godward, groups like Workers Power and the Alliance for
Workers Liberty also have their criticisms of the SWP's new orientation -
are they next for the rough stuff?
4. The last thing we would like to emphasise is that the SWP's violent
hysteria flows from a profound political weakness. If the organisation was
actually confident about its politics and the alliance with the mosques, why
react in such a brittle way to criticisms? The SWP leadership is aware that
in terms of Marxist principle and the history of our movement, it is skating
on very thin ice. *That* is why it is trying to paint any criticism, any
dissent as an act of "racism", something that must be met with physical
attacks and censorship.
As far as we are concerned, that can never work of course. We have the
*Weekly Worker*, we have our website, etc. The leaders of the SWP can never
shut us up. The people who ought to be really worried are SWPers themselves.
Is this the sort of reaction *you* comrades can expect when you develop
different ideas, when - horror! - you actually have temerity to *voice*
those criticisms? Be warned. Once you allow censorship against others, it is
only a matter of time before you feel the gag yourself.
For open debate!
Against violence and intimidation in the workers' movement!
Mark Fischer/CPGB London
James Bull/CPGB Manchester
POSTER ADDS:
whilst im not a CPGBer or a Trot im sickend that the SWP have started beating people up just because unlike the SWP they believe in womens & gays rights. This PHYSICAL attack is on top of the thuggery (INCLUDING physical) that the SWP try and dole out in Birmingham..rather than hand out leaflets like the poor saps above its about time that activists refused to be cowered just because the SWP scream 'racist' & 'islamophobe' every time people stand up to them...
Oria
Comments
Hide the following 40 comments
any objective evidence
14.07.2003 19:12
on the english left and its usual infighting (glad i am not english).But i prefer to see
both side of evidence before making a judgement.
I would have to ask why the cpgb had decided to hand out such a contensious leaflet at
a swp event (not that it would condone any physical violence).
Also its a bit much to jump to conclusion of the said violence that it was planned without complete evidence to make such a claim.
I dont think the cpgb evidence is clear enough butif there was violence then it was bang out of order.
this isnt the first time i have heard of the english left comming to blows .
you sad english folk should get yourselves in order or there will be many more years of
tory right wing rule.
judge pickles
They ate my Granny too!
14.07.2003 19:45
Nontrot
Enjoy your punch up
14.07.2003 20:11
Meanwhile there's a massive crime in the process of being committed against humanity beyond your shallow world of posturing theorising, paper-selling
The rulers would laugh their socks off at your divisive antics
dh
Its not unusual
14.07.2003 21:47
on the indymedia uk site ,often from other left groups but they dont seem
to bother repling or attacking the others.
Have noticed last swappie piece had most comments i have ever seen over 50
last time i checked falling into usual name calling and sillyness.
poor england glad i am welsh of to las vegas.
tom jones
Poor SWP!
14.07.2003 23:15
So cue, predictably enough, another round of peeps trying to dismiss legitimate criticisms as tiresome distractions from the *reality* of the class struggle.
Except, unfortunately, you can't differentiate the two. Because, for some godforsaken reason, the SWP is the hegemonic force in the English (at any rate) left. And that's a problem - in fact a fucking tragedy- because, as we see once again, it's a loathsome, anti-democratic sect, more of a cult than anything actually resembling a revolutionary political organisation. And while it remains hegemonic, it will suck the life out of any and every new political initiative, just as it's doing now with the Socialist Alliance.
So, ask yourself, SWPies: what is the *actual* difference between John Rees' diktat that it's OK to trample on anyone and anything that stands between the SWP and power- eg "minority voices" who "represent very little" - and Bush's mantra "you're either for us or against us"?
Cos all I can see is the same narrow, greedy, controlling mindset. And I don't need it from either source.
Once again, with feeling: FUCK THE SWP!
Gerrymander Francis
First take the plank from your own eye…
15.07.2003 01:09
Are the SWP the revolutionary future?
I sincerely doubt it.
Are they authoritarian and dogmatic, do they stifle other voices, do they keep their membership theoretically impoverished?
Generally, yes.
Are there serious questions that need to be asked about the SWP’s current electoralism and coalition building?
Undoubtedly.
Are they the Great Satan, worthy of this obsessive hatred, this childish “I’m not going to play if the nasty Swaps are going to be there” holier-than-thou shite?
Maybe not.
Are most of those doing the slagging actually any better, theoretically or in their praxis?
Ah…
There does seem to me to be an unhealthy obsession with slagging the SWP off, something a little like penis envy (and as the feminists have taught us, having a penis is not as great as we may have previously believed). If we tried applying a little part of our critical faculties to our own behaviour, then maybe, just maybe, we’ll be able to build a real left in which all sectarian ideologies become irrelevant.
As to my original point, if I may quote from the original statement: “The actual attack was pretty limp and unserious”. Did it therefore justify the sensationalist headline which will draw in the usual Swappie-baiters? And does doing so detract from the need to have a serious debate about the attitude the left in general should take towards the ‘leaders’ of the Islamic community in Britain? The CPGB article referred to claims that “At Marxism 2003 comrade German made the plea that women’s and gay rights should not be treated as “shibboleths”.” Can anyone out there corroborate this? If it is true, that is indeed a seriously dangerous position, and much more worthy of attention than a silly little brawl in Gower Street. So can we debate THAT? If it isn’t true, well, that’s just typical of the lies and disinformation that abound in ‘official’ left-wing circles. And it bores the hell out of me.
Nontrot
So Liberals Support SWP Bigotry...
15.07.2003 08:36
Yeah its easy to take the p*** out of the cpgb and put on this attitude of 'oh the're all the same' but at the end of the day these cpgb people were peacefully drawing attention to the SWP's attempt to subvert the Socialist Alliance into a sexist & homophobic friendly group so that they then can stand in elections with the Muslim Association of Britain..
I bet if the issue had been race rather than gender & sexual orientation they these pathectic 'liberals' would have been calling for the SWP to be dismantled brick by brick..
Its significant that the liberals who criticise the SWP and then pretend every one on the left is the same actually have the SAME retrograde reactionary views as the SWP on dissent, sexism & homophobia...
You make me sick
Gerk Francis
Nontrot...or not!
15.07.2003 08:59
And where's yer own "debate" here? I asked if there was a difference betweeen the nuances of Rees's and Bush's viewpoints. Your reply: The SWP is not Satan. Er, right....
As for the German "shibolleth" quote, it's been widely recorded and reported. If you need the proof of your own ears, you can probably get a tape of the session from Bookmarks in London...then what?
Gerrymander Francis
Bottom Line
15.07.2003 09:20
The disgraced now sacked ex SWP full timer in Birmingham, Ger Francis, is well known for his squaring up to people..especially if they are female..this is the jerk that smeared victimised firefighter Steve Godward as a 'racist' (100% bull as anyone who knows Steve knows he is not only active against racism but, unlike the SWP who see it as a recruitment opportunity, has a genuine moral disgust at it)...and 'islamophobe' and tried to provoke a physical response from him on more than one occasion..
The problem here is that, dead head liberals who are apologists for SWP sexism, homophobia and thuggery aside, how to deal with them? Does Gerrymander Francis have any suggestions? Part of the problem is that silly groups like Workers Power make things worse by screaming 'the SWP ARE part of the Left' and build all the SWP's fronts for them..
To my mind what the SWP did to Steve Godward is a form of Scabbing and the SWP should be treated as Scabs...
Gerk Francis
Am I Safe?
15.07.2003 09:50
Emma
Smear campaign?
15.07.2003 10:02
"We were physically attacked outside the morning plenary session of 'Marxism'
by up to seven members of the Socialist Workers Party"
It then goes on to add
"The actual attack was pretty limp and unserious. As far as either one of us
are aware, the SWPers did not actually manage to get a blow in on us, even
if that had been their intention"
then the poster adds this comment
"POSTER ADDS: whilst im not a CPGBer or a Trot im sickend that the SWP have started beating people up..."
How can you infer the last comment from the first two? Did an actually physical attack take place? No. Did anyone get beaten up? No.
Me thinks some sort of smear campaign is going on.
Oscar
Yes There WAS An Attack
15.07.2003 10:43
Was there an attack? Yes.
I was also bringing to activists attention that the violence dished out by the Birmingham SWP has now gone further afield.
Is this a 'smear'? No.
By god having witnessed the SWP square up to people, smear them & threatening them i wish it was but sadly its the Truth.
Oria
Advice to Women & Gays Re: SWP Hate Attack
15.07.2003 11:09
Wherever you are in the country:
1: Make sure you go to AND leave any meeting where the SWP are likely to be with a friend. Preferable more than one as the SWP have been known to run after people to harrass them after meetings..
2: Once inside the venue avoid SWP paper sellers. Dont even bother to get into a conversation with them as they will sooner or later call you an 'islamophobe' and 'racist'.
3: Be Confident: The SWP will only physically attack when a: they outnumber you and b: they dont think you'll fight back. On ocassions when the ex-SWP fulltimer was invited out by one of his prospective victims the SWP coward soon was just staring at the floor. If you have a mate who can handle theirselves then its better to bring them too.
4: Dont give them your personal details..ive heard of SWP getting peoples details on fake petitions then leaking them to fascist organisations if you disagree with them.
These tips should do for starters...maybe one of our alternative/anarchist friends could put something like this in PDF on a website..
Gerk Francis
HA HA...
15.07.2003 12:01
RUDEBOY
Deja vu
15.07.2003 12:25
“how obsessed with Trotskyism do you have to be to define yourself negatively against it?”
You’re quite right, in choosing a pen name for this debate, I thought it would be a short and easy way of countering the individuals who then assumed I was a member of the SWP or some other Trotskyist groupuscle. And of course, perhaps I should have posted as Non-liberal, because people with a lack of imagination will infer that because I have criticisms to make of this country’s laughable left, I must be a liberal apologist for the SWP.
You say “Its significant that the liberals who criticise the SWP and then pretend every one on the left is the same actually have the SAME retrograde reactionary views as the SWP on dissent, sexism & homophobia...” A bizarre argument, which, I believe, marks me out as both a liberal sexist and a Stalinist homophobe. Thanks. Let me make clearer what I am in fact saying. I am simply suggesting that the greater part of the left allows itself to fall into sectarianism far too easily, to negative effect.
I’ve worked with the SWP and they are infuriating. I’ve also worked with other socialist organisations, anarchists, anti-capitalists, you name it, and time and time again, I’ve seen the blinkers of ideology scupper meaningful work. I am concerned with the way the SWP works, but there are good people in the organisation, and you’re not going to influence them to analyse the reactionary nature of their own activity by indulging in smear and slander. In this climate, when people leave the SWP (as most eventually do), they either become disillusioned with the entire left or they find their way into another dead-end sect. This is why I believe everyone on the left has a duty to engage in auto-critique, if we are ever to make any real changes to society.
I’ve been on holiday, and haven’t yet absorbed the full impact of the momentous events at ULU this year. I will go back through the archive and see what I can find because as I said, if Lindsay German said what she is alleged to have said it is indeed foolhardy and dangerous. But, as the original CPGB article explains, “The leaflet actually warns that the SWP leadership is in danger of a "*compromise* on sexism and homophobia" due to their pursuit of an opportunist electoral alliance with a section of the mosque, not that the *SWP* is a sexist or homophobic organisation.”
Now, I know women and queers in the SWP, and they are certainly not self-hating bigots. But go about criticising the activities of the Central Committee in the usual hot-headed way, and they are likely to block out the message, and respond in – yes, the usual hot-headed way. Don’t stop criticising, because you people do indeed make extremely important points. But think about HOW you criticise, and what impact it will have. Because the way I see it, unless we do, in a hundred years from now we’ll be sitting here having the same tired argument.
Noningeneral
claims of violence
15.07.2003 12:43
time last year as well ,shame on you swp bully boys and girls .
did any poster actualy witness this event? .
Are the swp actually that important that they should take up
such an amount of peoples time ?
old gerty francis clearly thinks so.
Whats there membership a few thousand whats the other groups memberships a
few thousands dont matter much.
fled findstone
YES OPPOSING SWP VIOLENCE IS IMPORTANT!
15.07.2003 13:17
Yes it DID happen...the people it happend to are well known and reliable...the SWP have beaten up people before most noticable Mark Sandell from the alliance for workers liberty..
The SWP wont listen to reason they just respond with fists and boots...
Its time to take out the trash..
Oria
Take them out?
15.07.2003 14:43
Non sequitur
Its not reason
15.07.2003 15:11
its the truth they cant stand and its us in the REAL left
who now the truth ,that is why those liers resort to boots and hand bags
and why we should denounce them as the satanists that they are.
the voice of truth is mine said uncle joe some where at some time .
during his glorious reign protecting the great soviet bear from the likes
of the violent swpers.
I say hang em hang em all.
hey arnold
Notingeneral, generally speaking...
15.07.2003 15:41
The charge IS that they're prepared to drop ANY principle for short-term, opportunist gain, damaging any progressive movement for change in doing so by shutting down any avenues of debate adopting the most ham-fisted, witless, anti-democratic methods available.
And what you say about other groups on the left is right enough. But, as I say the SWP's the hegemonic group and thus has the most potential to damage our futuure. Because, as you say, LOADS of people will become disillusioned by thier crap sooner or later.
Gerk, we should talk sometime maybe...?
Gerrymander Francis
SWP
15.07.2003 15:48
Gerrymander: check your emails ive already been in touch...probably..
Gerk Francis
not my problem
15.07.2003 16:04
THEY THEN SHOULD REPORT THIS TO THE POLICE .
On how the swp are organised or what polices they put forward thats
them to decide its not my business .People can make there own mind up
about them and most avoid the hard left like the plague.
These squabbles are of no importance the young people and the growing
international anti globalisation movement is leaving all you dinosaurs
behind.
charlie cotton
To Charlie Cotton
15.07.2003 17:47
Noningeneral
failure
15.07.2003 17:55
will have failed and those in charge will have won.
The anti globalization movement is much bigger than the boorish
english left.and far more important ,cant see what there is to lern from this
thread other thread on indymedia say far more that is relevent.
charlie cotton
Charlie Cotton...
15.07.2003 23:57
It's a debate about ENDS and MEANS, and the way it's impossible to create a transformed society based on equality and justice by using dictatorial, hierarchical means. So sorry if it's boring you. (Love to Dot BTW) ;-)
Gerk, checked me email. Nowt. Dunno what poor bastard you're writing to! We need to rethink...?
Gerrymander Francis
Why We Oppose SWP Thuggery
16.07.2003 07:59
Part of the struggle against capitalism is the struggle against homophobia and sexism..actually as sexism PREDATES capitalism is truer to say that part of the struggle against sexism involves the struggle against capitalism.
Which is not to say, as you seem to do, that anti-sexists must 'shut up' until capitalism is done away with! Its a damning indication of your own old fashioned reactionary views that you get angry that some people have dared to raise a banner against sexism & homophobia...sure its easy to laff but then when have YOU done anytihg at all against sexism & homophobia?
Where were you all at the picket of the MOBO awards where 'artists' who called for the death of gays and the mistreatment of women were feted by the press/left/etc...no doubt if it had been a Blood and Honour (thats a nazi gig kids) event (which if translated into race its what it would have been...) you would have rightly have been baying for blood!
Gerrymander: hmm seems your not who i thought you were...(though i didnt send the email under the 'Gerk' name)..have to think on this one..
Gerk Francis
i take a point
16.07.2003 08:32
the mobo awards live north of the border a long expensive train journey
not all of us have money.but i have worked in places where i have seen
both forms at its worst cheap labour factories and have been involved in campaigns through unions and others and helped work up here.i would say both forms of oppresion are part of somthing bigger than there individual status ,race,gypsy travellers aswell. all have one thing in common are used to divide us all by the capitialist system.i dont think they should be seperated from each other but together as one fight.
somebody is getting me a copy of the cpgb leaflet which has caused this scuffle will read that first then look at what the swp have actualy said rather than comment made on a site i think thats the fair way of doing things?
But i dont think this thread was really set up to debate this ,it was more
set up to take a swipe at the swappies as can be seen from the tabloid (sun)
style heading at the start rather than the debate of tackling exploitation on sex or gender grounds.
charlie cotton
The CPGB Leaflet In Question
16.07.2003 08:45
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/home.html
Just scroll down that page and you can download it too..
Gerk Francis
sexism predated capitialism
16.07.2003 08:45
middle class modern view then yes.but that dosnt take into account how people actualy
looked at there world at that time need to bare as many kids as possible to survive etc it was more about mutal survival.
dont know enough about the ancient classical world to comment but there is evidence of strong women bouddica and cleopatra for example but dont know much about working folks life at that time.
modern sexism did not come about until capitialism emerged with the need for cheap labour and steady god fearing families to keep producing good workers.
back to nowadays the charge in the title clearly makes you belive that all swp sexist and homophobic even there gay,and female members? .though the article dosnt comment on it.
I think gerrys charges against charlie are a bit unfair standing outside the MOBO awards
though creditable does not make you the only hero of the oppresed if as charlie says meow.me meow (sorry got lost there) he has been involved in similar things localy then that is also comendable and maybe a bit more effective.
duggs bunny
SWP on Pride
16.07.2003 14:15
Or is it a cunning plan? Ah yes of course, halfway through they'll pull out AK-47s provided by their Al-Quaeda allies and gun down their fellow marchers!
Surely they should be physically excluded, along with any Muslim-looking types and anyone with a reactionary anti-women headscarf or who makes subtle homophobic hand gestures?
kurious
Kurious Krap
16.07.2003 14:35
Gerk Francis
kurious makes me larf!
16.07.2003 15:35
But every now and then s/he throws a wobbler and writes some hysterical sarcastic rant dissing the outlandish positions the SWP's EVER-GROWING band of critics are *supposed* to be adopting according to his/her impoverished comprehension.
Whatever mate. Go along to Pride. Dress yourself up lilac camouflage gear if you want. But don't be surprised if no one STILL wants to buy your rag.
What a fool.
BTW, you gonna need any help leafleting the mosques to build for Pride at all? Or shall we give it a miss?
Gerrymander Halliwell
trival
16.07.2003 15:38
looking at her comments made i dont think she was trivialising sexisim (shes a women aint she) or homophoibia . a shibboleth is a sect single issue movement.I personaly dont think
that forming a gay only or women only sect to fight for equality is a good thing its better if all work together niether is this watering down there issues .
I cant comment on the claims about the goings on in birmingham dont have first hand knowledge.And comments from one left group about another is biased evidence.
To me it looks like the usual squabbles between big groups and small groups.
I would say to those who dont like the swp is build your own groups and use your
own argument like the ssp i would imagine if the SA do grow most of there new members wont be aligned to any specsific left group
charlie cotton
Kurious Makes Me Barf
16.07.2003 16:03
I doubt the SWP will get a warm reception on Pride..least not by any one who is wise to their attack on anti-homophobes...dount will see 'Kurious' there...after all he's probably convinced himself that gays are all 'islamophobes'..
Gerk Francis
Dot Wouldnt Like It!
16.07.2003 16:45
1: "I had a look at the cpgb site and also looked ub the word Shibboleth as used by linsdy germain. looking at her comments made i dont think she was trivialising sexisim (shes a women aint she) or homophoibia"
Since when has the mere fact of being a woman or gay meant you were inherently anti-sexist or anti-homophobic? Do I really need to use the example of Thatcher's government which had many gay Tories both as backbenchers and higher? Does Section 28 ring any bells?
2: . "a shibboleth is a sect single issue movement.I personaly dont think
that forming a gay only or women only sect to fight for equality is a good thing its better if all work together niether is this watering down there issues" .
Who was calling for a women only or gay only 'sect' (BTW: do you see muslim only groups as sects?) Its disturbing that you dismiss sexism and homophobia as 'sect single issues'..maybe if you are a middle class drop out but believe you me (as Lisa might say) if you are a woman and/or gay then discrimination is something you are faced with everyday..including being smeared as a 'racist' or 'islamophobe' (in antiwar meetings for christs sake! Would I be there if i was a racist???) by sections of the Left
3:"I cant comment on the claims about the goings on in birmingham dont have first hand knowledge.And comments from one left group about another is biased evidence.
To me it looks like the usual squabbles between big groups and small groups.
I would say to those who dont like the swp is build your own groups and use your
own argument like the ssp i would imagine if the SA do grow most of there new members wont be aligned to any specsific left group "
Well look on Indymedia..put in 'steve godward' in the search box and read for yourself! Its easier to dismiss it all rather than face the facts! As to your other comment I agree: the antiwar none sexist, none homophobic broad Left should no longer sully themselves with those who use violence to silence antiwar activists disturbed by the sexism & homophobia of the SWP!
Gerrymander: whats a good way to contact you?
Gerk Francis
Hi Gerk
16.07.2003 23:14
Gerrymander Francis
SWP attack
17.07.2003 08:01
Gerrymander: i guess steve g has enough on his plate...im thinking that you are in a group yeah or nay? Hey maybe Mr Ger Francis (disgraced now sacked former SWP fulltimer) will post a comment...cos i KNOW that he reads Indymedia & the weekly worker...
Gerk Francis
hmmmm....
17.07.2003 08:57
I reckon Ger's kurious myself! Petulant, irrational, refusing to engage in debate, hysterically denouncing everyone who disagrees with him as racist or Islamophobic...surely there can't be TWO!
Gerrymander Francis
Hnnnn
17.07.2003 09:18
Gerk Francis
SWP....
17.07.2003 09:29
Gerrymander: my email address: gerkfrancis@hotmail.com
Gerk Francis