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Ten tips against anti-Semitism

Eric Krebbers and Jan Tas | 05.06.2003 21:46

Activists wishing to criticise the Israeli state must be careful not to descend into anti-Semitic reasoning. Here are 10 tips to avoid anti-Semitism in discussions, articles, leaflets and demonstrations.

. Always also criticise moslim fundamentalists and never justify the suicide bombers.

Hamas, Jihad and Hezbollah are not liberation organisations, but religious fascists. Historically, anti-Semitism is a central element of the Islam, just as it is of Christianity. Moslim fundamentalists call for all Jews to be killed, and are thus extremely anti-Semitic. Anyone who refuses to categorically distance themselves from these fascists and their opportunist methods, whether for anti-imperialist or other reasons, legitimises anti-Semitism. Anyone who ignores the attacks on random Israeli citizens, considers them in some way understandable or justified, is underwriting the anti-Semitic logic behind them, namely that Israeli Jews are always guilty - regardless of whether they agree with their government - just because they are Jewish.

2. Oppose anti-Zionism

Anti-Zionists wrongly claim that Jewish nationalism, Zionism, is per definition on the extreme Right. In reality, Zionism has many different currents, some of which are progressive. Anti-Zionism only opposes Jewish nationalism. Palestinian or Arab nationalism is embraced. However, all forms of nationalism have the same reactionary function. They all produce myths to emphasise the unity of "nations" and to hide the oppression of workers, women and people who do not fit into the nationalist scheme. Elites use nationalism to harness the population for their fight against other elites. In this sense, Jewish nationalism is not fundamentally different from Arab or Dutch nationalism. It is important to combat nationalism at home, and not to do the elites a favour by fighting nationalism in other countries. In addition to this, it is anti-Semitic to, from a European perspective, declare Jewish nationalism to be the main problem. The solution lies in the principle of anti-nationalism and in the support for joint Israeli-Palestinian initiatives for resistance from below.

3. Do not use the term genocide and do not call Israel the biggest abuser of human rights

Israel is one of the many countries which gravely abuses human rights. Many of the national "liberation movements", such as the PLO also abuse human rights, and will continue to do so once they have their own state. Various states in the Middle East, including Syria, Iran,Saudia,Egypt,Libya,Morocco and Sudan also abuse human rights on a massive scale. The much more limited scope of the Israeli abuses of human rights do not justify the title of the biggest abuser of human rights. One sided criticism of Israel smacks of anti-Semitism. Furthermore, the term genocide is exaggerated with regard to Israeli violence. Jenin can not be compared to Rwanda or Yugoslavia. What is more, Israel does not seek the systematic eradication of the other side; unlike the muslim fundamentalist organisations. If for example Hamas had its way, all Jews would be driven into the sea or gassed. Incidentally, more criticism in the direction of human rights abuses on the part of the Dutch government would not go amiss either.

4. Never compare Israel to Nazi Germany

Mercifully, the Shoah is a unique event in human history. In Nazi Germany 6 million Jews were systematically slaughtered. Comparisons between this and other mass murders do no justice to the unimaginable and horrific dimensions of this crime against the Jews. European claims that the Shoah was just like the current Israeli policies of occupation in effect rehabilitate the Nazi's. This could create a space in the future for the re-emergence of the extreme right. And the suggestion that the Israeli's are no better than Hitler can also provide a retrospective justification for the Shoah. "Hitler forgot one: Sharon", was one of the slogans chanted at a pro-Palestine demo in Amsterdam in April 2002.

5. Do not hold "the Jews" accountable for the actions of the Israeli state

It is nonsense to hold "the Jews", "the Palestinians" or 'the Dutch" collectively responsible for anything. There are always huge contradictions inside any "nation". Many Jews in Israel and in other parts of the world deplore the Israeli state violence. Generally, they have little influence over it. Those who claim that people in Israel do not protest enough against the state violence should realise that the Israeli Left, like the Left in other parts of the world, is in a crisis. It is anti-Semitic to demand specifically of the Jews that they adhere to higher political and moral standards. Those who nevertheless hold all Jews responsible for the Israeli state violence, open the way for anti-Semites to attack random Jews and Jewish targets.

6. Do not use anti-Semitic stereotypes

Throughout history, Jews have been portrayed as baby killers and rapists, as demons who poison water supplies, as greedy bankers and speculators and as spineless intellectuals. When the Palestinian solidarity movement employs such stereotypes against Israel, the mobilising effect will be enormous, because of the fact that anti-Semitism everywhere has deep roots. But if a movement does this, it no longer has a place in the Left.

7. Condemn ideas of a pro-Israeli conspiracy

Oft heard suggestion of a pro-Israeli conspiracy in politics, culture, the economy and the media are classic elements of anti-Semitism. Regardless of whether they concern the Dutch or the global context, such allegations lie in the tradition of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", a fraudulent text dating from 1900, claiming that Jews were conspiring to gain world domination. In cartoons the conspiracy was depicted as a giant octopus, holding the world in its deadly tentacles. Today there is much talk of the so called "mighty Jewish lobby" which is alleged to control the media and keep criticism of Israel off the agenda.

8. Do not call Israel an unnatural state

Since nationalism gained ground in Europe and humanity was suddenly divided into "nations", "the Jews" have been regarded as the opposite of a "nation". As such, anti-Semitism is a fixed part of nationalism. In nationalist mythology, "the Jews" represent the evil nemesis of all the good characteristics of the "own nation". Whilst the "own people" were supposedly rooted in the soil of an "own land", the Jews would roam the earth forever and never belong anywhere. According to this logic, a Jewish state would be "unnatural" by definition. For this reason, it is anti-Semitic to pretend that the Palestinians per definition have a real link to their land, whilst the Israeli's per definition do not. The Israeli state is just as "natural" or "unnatural" as any other state.

9. Do not challenge the right of existence of Israel

It is logical for the radical Left to challenge the existence of states and it is equally logical to criticise ones own state. However, Europeans who wish to abolish the state Israel first are caught up in anti-Semitic reasoning. After all, Israel is the state where the European Jews who survived the Shoah sought a safe haven. Now that anti-Semitism internationally is on the increase, many Jews consider Israel the only place on earth where they can flee to in the last resort. By challenging the very right of existence of the state Israel, the feelings of insecurity amongst Jews will only increase. Instead, the Left in Europe should counter anti-Semitism in this continent, so that Jews can feel safe here at home.

10. Never blame Israel for anti Semitism

Anti-Semitism is obviously the responsibility of the anti-Semites. Anti-Semitic thought is deeply rooted in both Europe and the Arabic world. Attacks on Jewish targets have occurred for centuries, also in the Middle East. Anti-Semitic ideas and attacks can therefore not be caused by the existence of the state Israel or by the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. Israel is at best the latest excuse for anti-Semites. Holding Israel responsible for anti-Semitic beliefs is a version of the old idea that "the Jews" are to blame for everything. The same goes for blaming the Jewish secret service, the Mossad, for attacks on Jewish targets in the Middle East and in Europe.

Eric Krebbers and Jan Tas

Comments

Hide the following 33 comments

idiotic

05.06.2003 22:17

So in other words, get rid of all the truth and present a weak "moderate" argument against Jewish oppression, and Jewish manipulation of foreign policy in the USA and UK to benefit Israel.

GET STUFFED.

anti zionist


Jewish NOT Zionist

05.06.2003 23:56

A much better way to oppose anti-Semitism AND Israel/zionism:

STOP NYC Inc.
- Homepage: http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/


A good article

05.06.2003 23:58

A good article. GOod to see people fighting against the anti-semites who pretend to be anti-israel for political reasons when they're really just anti-semites. Those are good lines to draw, and they're based on reality and balance, and fairness.

Ignore the "anti-zionist" crackhead above.

NORMAL_INTELLIGENT_PERSON


Thank you

06.06.2003 00:47

IF some so called 'anti-zionists' knew how much damage they were doing to the Palestinian cause by their crude neo-nazi impersonations I think they would reconsider their position.

"So in other words, get rid of all the truth and present a weak "moderate" argument against Jewish oppression"

The person who posted the above is clearly someone who values extremism, hatred and violence over everything else.

It is *essential* that campaigners for Palestinian freedom do not soil themselves by associating with fascistic Islamic terrorists (as the ISM have done).

The case against Israel can be made more effectively - especially internationally - *without* us supporting the counter-productive, random extermination of innocent civilians practiced by both sides of the conflict.

a real anti-zionist


appropriate insults

06.06.2003 03:32

if a man wearing a tshirt with a swatika on it hits you, should you call him a "facist bastard" or just a plain "bastard"?

its an interesting point, but completely misses the problem here. israel/former palestine is a state that has a lot of dificulties that won't be solved by one side or the other "winning"

and as we know its never the common people who "win"

anonymous coward


you are revealing your prejudices

06.06.2003 03:40

You are revealing your own prejudices against Islam. You state that "Historically, anti-Semitism is a central element of the Islam, just as it is of Christianity." This is simply factually incorrect. Historically, Islam has been far more friendly towards and tolerant of Jews when compared to Christianity. It is no coincidence that during the pogroms against the Jews in Christian lands in medieval times, the Jews sought refuge in the Ottoman empire.

And another nonsensical factual error-Arabs ARE semites (check out your encylcopedia, why don't you) so to label them anti-semitic is logically inconsistent. Try it.

The Muslims do not hate Jews. They are brothers. They do resent the policies of the Israeli state, and who can blame them.

not so


Debunking Krebbers bias

06.06.2003 05:47

This endless flow of Israeli propaganda masquerading as calm, fair discussion is really quite tiring. Krebbers original posting is a fine example.
Lets look at it paragraph by paragraph (if you have the strength).

1. Begins with a mis-statement of Islamic belief, couched in racist terms. Then sets up the old false equation that anyone fighting against the Israeli state must be doing so because it is Jewish. Could it not be that in fact the opposition is because of what Israeli armed forces and settlers are doing, not because of who they are? This para has a simulation of a set of logical steps, where in fact there is none.

2. Seeks to protect Zionism from attack by sheltering it amongst other nationalisms as just "one of the boys". It is not - it is a very unusual animal. What other nationalism lays claim to a piece of land not owned for over a thousand years, and justifies disposessing the current inhabitants on the basis of an imagined promise by a spiritual being. And deliberately imports an army of dispossessers from all over the world, chosen on religious/racial criteria. Opposition to zionism is a predictable reaction to these particular characteristics of this very special nationalism.

3. Re "genocide" - agreed. Re "biggest abuser of human rights" - I think what is meant is "biggest abuser of human rights amongst the countries that claim to be civilised democracies, and seek recognition as such in western circles". If Israel accepted being placed on a par with the other states you mention, then fair enough. But it doesn't.

4. The poster does not seem to be aware that modern historians of repute (including jewish) long ago reduced the old six million figure to a maximum of close to half that. I mention only for accuracy. I am afraid there are parallels between Nazi treatment of Jews, and IDF treatment of palestinians. Jews lived in fear of the knock in the night, and the armed uniformed Nazi at the door. The palestinians live with the same constant fear, but the uniform is Israeli. The reason to make the comparison is that the thinking world is amazed that a people who suffered so, have forgotten the lesson, and turned implacable invincible persecutor in their turn. This is an astonishing lesson we all need to ponder. Yes, there is a danger that incipient Nazis will enjoy whipping up hatred with this accusation. But surely that does not mean that the calm, sane commentator must have his mouth stopped? The comparison arises from the similarities in the actions. Cease the actions, the comparisons will cease. Did the Nazis bulldoze the houses of family members of suspected resistance members ? Maybe they did.

5. Absolutely - agree 100%. Large numbers of jews, in and out of Israel, are as horrified at the actions of their government as you or I.

6. Absolutely - 100%. Goes for Jews and Arabs, and everyone. Pity about the anti-Islamic stereotyping in para 1 !

7. There are few ideas we should "condemn" out of hand without examining the evidence. "Protocols" I think no. But big political pressure on Bush from americans with loyalties away from home - yes. And ownership and control of the media - some truth. I think both these are significant factors in the continuation of US support, without which Israel would have to improve its behaviour. So discussion is valid.

8. Never heard the "unnatural state" thing. You're boxing a shadow.

9. The question is - which Israel ? The only "right" existing under international law, and not seized illegally by force of arms, is the right to exist within the original UN-gifted borders, pre-1948 war. Within that, we agree. Outside those borders, there is much scope for legitimate discussion and challenge.

10. Your wording is loaded. It is fair to blame the actions of the Israeli government for the bad results they cause. These include the growth recent growth of anti-Israeli feeling (which you could say is legitimate since it is a democracy). Results also include the similar growth of anti-jewish feeling ( which you can fairly describe as anti-semitism). This is appalling and unfortunate, but it IS a result, it was easily predicted, and it could be reduced by reducing the provocation. We must remember that half the world's population has IQ's below 100, and are consequently quite easily lead.

Lets demonstrate that we don't belong with them by seeing this original posting for what it is. Concealed pro-Israeli government propaganda. Whether composed with cynical intelligence, or with unthinking prejudice, once again we cannot tell.

getting weary


Point Proven

06.06.2003 08:05

"The poster does not seem to be aware that modern historians of repute (including jewish) long ago reduced the old six million figure to a maximum of close to half that." Historians like David Irving and . . . I'm not aware of any other. Your argument actually proves the point of the original poster - many who rail at the behavior of Israel do so because they are rabid Jew-haters. Perhaps most. There have been a number of Muslim suicide bombings in Chechnya recently and Russian troops have killed tens of thousands of Chechen civilians. Please remind me of when the last anti-Russian protest was held or where British leftists have proposed divesting from Russia or boycotting Russian businesses, academics or musicians.

Robert


To the ignorant infants above

06.06.2003 08:16

"The Muslims do not hate Jews."

Which Muslims are you talking about here? A large number DO hate Jews. Many have no qualms about assuming every Jew is a Zionist and being very vocal in their opinions on a 'final solution' to the 'Zionist problem'.

But if we accept that not all Muslims hate Jews, we can certainly say that ISLAM hates Jews, and the Qu'ran encourages this hatred.

I'm prepared for some smarmy mental weakling to drivel on about context, but if you disagree then explain how the 'context' discourages Muslims from hating Jews.
____________________

"Do not take the Jews and Christians for friends"
(Surah 5:51)
____________________

"fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness"
(Surah 9:123)
____________________

"fight those who do not believe in Allah"
(Surah 9:29)
____________________

"and fight them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"
(Surah 8:39)
____________________

"fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace"
(Surah 9:14)
____________________

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
(Surah 8:12)

araz


oh ... if we are going to quote

06.06.2003 09:35

... from religious books, we could fill up several hard drives with nonsense and racism - but what do you expect from works dirived from cultures that lived in primative, illiterate and isolated times?

... I'm sick of hearing that I'm a goy, anti-semetic, against god, a pervert, unfit for heaven, going to hell, the devils minion etc etc ...

... and as for being 'rabid anti jewish' for suggesting that certain people 'cooked the books' over the holocaust, well that is an interesting way to discribe the many 'jewish' scolars who have concluded the same thing.

250 million people died as a result of imperialist ambitions during the second world war - the vast majority of them women and children - the most accurate discription of their murderers would be MEN.

The fact that the number of jewish victims is the most talked about area, disgusts me almost as much as the amount of money syphoned off by the lawyers in who's interest the numbers are talked up (see the notorious self hater Finklestien - the holocuast industry).

Your gods are fiction, your belief in them invariably self serving ... back here on earth BILLIONS starve or lead wretched lives whilst a tiny minority eat themselves to death ... how do these artifical divisions help them?

Bad monkeys ... with 60% identical genetic makeup to the humble lettuce ... the only opium I want is the kind I can smoke in my pipe, not the 'god told me to do it' twats.

Kill god

Love life.

jackslucid
mail e-mail: jackslucid@hotmail.com


Backwards Logic

06.06.2003 09:49

Getting Weary asks "Did the Nazis bulldoze the houses of family members of suspected resistance members ?" No, they murdered the every family member (and in many cases every man, woman and child in the village) and gave the house and its contents to Nazi supporters. All Jews, as you may not recall, we murdered whether they "resisted" or not. The reality in the middle east is the opposite of what happended to Europe's Jews. The Palestinian population is growing so rapidly that it will soon outstrip the Jewish population in the region. This is likely the main reason Sharon is anxious to see a separate Palestinian State created.

Monk


Mad Englishmen

06.06.2003 09:55

"The fact that the number of jewish victims is the most talked about area, disgusts me almost as much as the amount of money syphoned off by the lawyers in who's interest the numbers are talked up"

Another evil fool obsessed with diminishing the number of Jews murdered during the Holocaust. Between the far left and the BNP, the UK seems to be overrun with such lunatics.

Proud American


A few points

06.06.2003 10:09

Israel was set up as a "Jewish state". This does not mean that Jewish = Zionist, but it does mean that the actions of the Zionist state potentially impact on Jews everywhere. It also means that the position on non-Jews within such a state is precarious.
Zionism came about as a response to European anti-Semitism, but it also acquired the characteristics of the intense nationalism kicking around in Europe at the latter end of the 19th century. It also acquired some of the more unpleasant features of colonialism. "A land without a people for a people without a land" - none of the lands colonised by Europeans were in fact empty but colonisers found it convenient to pretend that they were empty or that they might as well be. In the 19th century, you had relatively liberal Englishmen like the novelist Anthony Trollope treating the disappearance of Australian Aborigines as inevitable and a sign of "progress". The early Zionists must have known that there were Arabs in Palestine, mainly Muslim but some of them Christian as well, but, influenced by colonialist ideas, they assumed that they would just have to make way for a "superior" people, and they no more thought of consulting them or respecting their views than Cortes thought of respecting the views of the Aztecs.
Zionism was also affected by fascism and Nazism and it shows these traces today. The more overt way was that the mass murder of European Jews by the Nazis boosted the project of Zionism. But Zionists were also influenced by seeing how the Nazis got their way, at least for a time, by the maximum and ruthless use of military force, including the use of heavy reprisals following acts of resistance. In occupied Europe the Nazis seized hostages and, if German soldiers or pro-German collaborators were killed, they would kill the hostages, sometimes at a rate of 50 or 100 for every German killed. In addition, houses and often entire villages associated with resistance would be destroyed. Does that sound similar in some way to the swift IDF retaliation for acts of Palestinian resistance?
On a different subject, there may well be statements in the Koran expressing hostility to Jews. But that is competitive religion for you. Jews countered the Christian claim that Jesus was the son of God by claiming that his real father was a Roman soldier and his mother a prostitute.

The Crimson Repat


No monopoly of any victims

06.06.2003 10:17

The Jewish holocaust is only one of many holocausts.

It is not creative to keep harping about one particular holocaust and "6 million" victims of a particular group.

The Congo holocaust at the turn of last century had more than 10 million victims.

17 million Chinese were victims during the Japanese invasion before and during WWII.

Russian lost 23 million civilians...

The Shoah is NOT unique, though just as sad.

Genocide, atrocitites, afscist, Neo-Nazis are terms happily used all over the place all the time.

Why should it not be applied just to a special category of mad people???

Why should it be any more constructive, useful or whatever when certain terms are circumcised out of relevant volcabulary and just for a particular category of mad people???

Why not the author of the first post ask victims of genocidal acts, atrocities how they would term the massively brutal acts of a particular group of people whom we should use a special gentle volcabulary for???

Excuse me, we are all grown-ups (most of us) and we can deal with real issues and feelings..... and we do not need to "prettify" language, cushion feelings, and sweeten away those not-so-kind acts and not-so-nice people.

And only the not-so-nice acts of some not-so-kind people.


"... Yesterday's victims become today's victimisers...."
Professor Yehuyashua Liebowitz. Jewish Professor.

Palestinian Holocaust Isreal


Proud american[sic]

06.06.2003 12:18

I would like to think you are practicing some kind of satire, but I fear not ...

I'm evil and obssessed am I?

Seems like you are dealing out the divine retribution thang - did god tell you to do it? I'll bet HE speaks in an amerikan accent.

If its obssession your interested in, perhaps you should look closer to home - your remarks did not deviate nor widen to include anything but your concerns for the number of jews killed, you didn't even take time to explain away why it is so many scholars (many jewish) think that the commonly held belief about the numbers has been distorted.

Do any asking the question - even 60 years later - avoid the convienient tag of anti-semite?

Left right left right ... those who only go one way get nowhere

Remember YOU are 60% lettuce!

jackslucid
mail e-mail: jackslucid@hotmail.com


divine spark

06.06.2003 13:29

>>>

Yes, She did.

Cherie Booth


Facts and Figures

06.06.2003 14:26

Why do people constantly argue over how many Jews were murdered in the holacaust? If it's six million it's a horrific amount. If its three million, it's a horrific amount. If it's one million its a horrific amount of dead people. What good does arguing about the exact figure do? How can it possibly contribute to any points you're trying to make? If there are any inaccuracies as regards figures, it's because of the inaccuracy of historical records from the worst period of turmoil the world has ever known, not some conspiracy to talk up figures.
Anyway, my main point: Its irrelevant whether it was 6 million or 3 million- Its too damn many. And the same goes for every other genocide the world has seen, present, past and future.

Peace and Love (one day hopefully).

Too many dead worldwide


Are you sure you are not a jew?

06.06.2003 14:51

Imagine you are in football stadium and there is clapping, if every clapping noise is represented by * and the distance between * are the time separation then the noise will sound like;

"* * **** * * jewish"
but still you loss.

They now penterate organisation which they are totally oppose , onlyin order to divert and distort their work. WAKE UP

Jaafer


Good article, bad responses

06.06.2003 15:00

It's a sad commentary on this website that someone can post a good article like the one at the top of this thread, and the israel-hating closet anti-semitic losers have to come out of the woodwork and spew their nonsense.

People who truly want peace, and fairness, and have an education and a sense of balance recognize that the article is a good one. Closet anti-semites who just don't have the guts to tell people how they really feel are the only people who would be opposed to the article. Pathetic. What's worse, a neo-nazi who is at least honest about his beliefs, or a neo-nazi who doesn't even have the guts to be honest about who he really is?

"Anti-zionists" are people essentially rooting for hamas to win - slaughter the jews, take over israel, and give it an arab name. Because that's the only way it's going to happen.

If "anti-zionists" want Israel shut down, if they're anti-semitic, they will just obsess about Israel. If they AREN't anti-semitic, and they apply the SAME STANDARDS across the globe, they'd be calling for half of earth to be undone. But you don't see them doing that. THey just rant about Israel, demonize every aspect of it in dishonset fashion, and do everything they can to protect those who seek israel's destruction.

Pathetic.

Jamie Phife


If your too dumb ...

06.06.2003 15:35

... to understand the pivitol way in which religion is used to divide people, and the exceptional way that the israeli govenment uses these divisions to profit and plunder, the way that unimaginably powerful and rich MEN and institutions love the opposition to be caught up in fallacy, delusion, division and emotive false consciousness ... then you really haven't been paying attention.

Having no experience of the scond world war, other than a handful of relatives being killed and bombed, I'm not really in a position to comment on the probable set of emotions of those that survived the slaughter - I can only imagine that, if faced with the notion that certain aspects were distorted or invented to leverage profit and power, I might become a little upset.

If you don't think it important enough to warrent fair and rational investigation, then don't get involved. Telling me and others like me that we can neither think for ourselves, nor consider the thoughts of others in relation to this MASS murder is offensive. Telling me and others like me that we are no better than the insane anti-life proponants and executioners of this maddness, just because we happen to NOT BELIEVE all the guilty were identified, let alone caught, is truely stupid and more than a little disgusting in itself.

If, in the course of discussing the ways and means in which the present israeli government and it's religiously motivated supporters act and think, we happen to critise the racist xenophobic mindset of those jewish bigots who believe that their rights superceed everyone elses because some phantasmorgorical sky ghost told them so several thousand years ago - then so be it. This does not make any off us anti-semetic, either in its true meaning or its presently accepted meaning of being anti-jewish.

My own veiw is that all religions are barmy, but I will defend anyones right to believe what they like (which isn't to say I won't attempt to convince them otherwise) and to practice whatever ceromony/ritual they see necessary - SO LONG as it does not prejudice the rights of others.

Its a shame that those who's tolerance levels never quite match their easy rhetoric manage to divert almost every discussion, investigation and research into the issues surrounding israels deeply disurbing and facistic behavour, into a witch hunt (or should that be gentile hunt) against those daring to give less than their unqualified support for sharon and his butchers.

I think it is exactly this kind of selective thinking that is endangering and isolating the jewish community the world over. Quite apart from anything, it is insulting to the myriad of jewish born groups activly challanging both the course and interpretation of recent jewish history.

Those that spread these vile and purile accusations as soon as their brains see questions they cannot answer would be better off tempering their reactionary zeal with a little forthough for the probable outcome of silencing real debate ... I can tell you now that none of those that would use these and other info outlets, would be allowed to if those whose positions [some] parrot were to be allowed free reign.

I expect that, like always, there will be a follow up comment by one of those reactionary zealots, claiming that I am a jew hater ... yawn ... for the umpteenth time NO!

My question to them ... are you a truth hater?

jackslucid
mail e-mail: jackslucid@hotmail.com


oh and by the way ...

06.06.2003 15:52

... I DO call for MORE than half the world to be undone, cause at the moment it ain't right!

jackslucid
mail e-mail: jackslucid@hotmail.com


REPLY TO THE FALSE STATEMENTS

07.06.2003 14:46

This is a reply to razor about the jews. The article started by; "The Muslims do not hate Jews." ..etc

The question which has to be answered is why the jews lived happely with the Arab/Kurd/Persians/Turks/Pakestany ..etc the rest of the Muslims before the occupation of Palestine? What is the cause of the hatered of the jews not just by the muslims but by everybody who knows you? People espacially of the West can nor be fooled for ever. So wake up otherwise you will pay for your crimes. Our hatered to you is not more our hatered to the Serbs after what they have done in Bosnia ..etc

The absolute majority of the jews are zionest and stop cheating yourselves.

Now you are becoming an expert in alQuraan? It needs soemething like twenty years to understand what in the Alqura'an. There are rules to read the qura'an. For example when and why did this verse has been revealed. Was it a war condition? was it after a treason? ..etc There are some verses which have been canceled by others after them. Then there is the language, the arabic language is the richest language in the world so what was your effort in understanding what you "were reading". The reality is that you are copying these verses from a jewish cook book against Islam. Others like you tried it before. why do not tell your White friends of the seriers of books by the name Israeliat" these jewish books full of rubbish aginst Islam.

The versus which you have mentioned are full of the above filth and it is deliberate. I will keep the verse wioth an answer in capital letters.

I'm prepared for some smarmy mental weakling to drivel on about context, but if you disagree then explain how the 'context' discourages Muslims from hating Jews.
____________________

"Do not take the Jews and Christians for friends"
(Surah 5:51)


FRIEND ABOVE IS NOT THE CORRECT MEANING, THE WORLD IN ARABIC IS WALLE, WALLE MEANS GUIDING FRIEND. TO USE YOU WAY OF LIVING IS MASTER. SO THE INTERPERTION IS FOR THE MUSLIMS TO REFUSE GUIDENCE IN MATTERS WHICH HAVE BEEN EXPLAINED IN THE qURA'AN GIVEN BY THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS. AS WITH EVERY IDIOLOGY THE NEW OR DIFFERENT ONE IS BRINGING NEW CONCEPTS. SO IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO BELEIVE IN THESE CONCEPTS DO NOT BE ANEW FOLLOWER.
____________________

"fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness"
(Surah 9:123)

TRUE LIKE YOU FIGHT THE INVADORS OF YOUR COUNTRY, HERE THE VERSE REFERS TO THE INVADOR OF YOUR IDELOGY. DO YOU UNDERSTAND, NOT JUST MATERILISM LIKE COUNTRIES, MONEY WHICH MULIMS DEFEND. AS FAR AS THIS VERSE DO YOU KNOW WHY IT HAS BEEN REVEALED?
____________________

"fight those who do not believe in Allah"
(Surah 9:29)

AS ABOVE
____________________

"and fight them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"
(Surah 8:39)

AS ABOVE
____________________

"fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace"
(Surah 9:14)

AS ABOVE
____________________

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
(Surah 8:12)

AS ABOVE.
******************
WHY DID NOT YOU MENTION THE VERSE THAT IF YOU SAVE ONE LIFE AS IF YOU SAVE ALL OF THE LIVES ON EARTH. I CAN NOT REMEBER THE EXACT VERSE BUT THE VERSE DOES NOT MENTION THE LIFE OF A MUSLIM OR A JEW OR A NONE BELEIVER. JUST ANY LIFE. SO WHAT YOU HAVE MENTIONED ABOVE HAS ITS OWN RULES AND INTERPETATION. YOU ONLY HAVE YOURSELVES TO CHEAT, THE MORE YOU CHEAT THE MORE YOU WILL PAY. YOU DID NOT PRODUCE THE ABOVE FROM YOUR DESIRE TO UNDERSTAND THE QURA'AN BUT IT IS CLEAR THAT YOUR FILTH SPREADING MACHINE HAVE DONE IT FOR YOUAND YOU ARE PART OF THEM.

TRY ANOTHER ONE.

JAAFER


my ten point reply above...

08.06.2003 04:25

What is the point ?

I spend the time to carefully examine the original posting, point by point, and to show where it sinks to distortion and error, in a calm rational manner, pointing out where I am in fact in agreement.

Do I get a single calm rational response on these actual issues ? Showing where my logic or facts are faulty in any particular paragraph?
Not one.
Because those supporting the posting do so apparently by instinct, or by birth, or by prejudice. So facts and logic are irrelevant.
The only real response I get is an accusation of anti-semitism because I let out a faint protest at the laziness of the original poster in unthinkingly dishing out the old "6 million" figure. I am NOT quoting holocaust denying maniacs. If you had the slightest interest in truth you would know that the official Jewish authorities have revised the figures downward.
Have you been to Aushwitz recently? If you had you would see that the official figure posted there has been drastically reduced by nearly 2 million from the (I think) 3 million originally posted there. All on the authority of, and at the decision of, the Jewish Board of Deputies (I hope I've got that right.) I could probably dig out some links for you, but I'm just too tired, and you won't read them anyway. I'm reporting the eye-witness account of my brother who went there with his Jewish wife last year. I agree the number doesn't alter the crime - I am just sick of the blind laziness of those who insist on quoting the long out-of-date figure, and screaming when someone else is calmly better-informed.

I'll try saying it again. If the Swiss government was doing what the Israeli govt is doing to the palestinians, my objections would be the same. I would be boycotting every Swiss product I could, and trying to persuade others to do the same. If anyone suggests to me (and they do) that my objections should be muted because Israel is jewish then my accusation is - such a suggestion is racist - really, repulsively, declare it out loud, RACIST. And if I let the fear of being called anti-semitic silence me, I would be an accessory to that act of racism.

The strength of my objections should NEVER be linked to the race or religion of the perpetrator, or the victim, either positively or negatively.

WHY can't you see and accept something so SIMPLE ?

Do you not understand what racism is ??

getting weary


Show Me

08.06.2003 09:19

"The official Jewish authorities have revised the figures downward." Provide a link to a such "jewish authorities" that have delcared that the total number of Jews murdered during the Holocaust is less that 6 million. Otherwise, let me reiterate that you are a BNP Nazi piece of shit.

Jimmy


Well jimmy ...

08.06.2003 11:19

... you could try ACTIVELY searching for the info yourself, rather than PASSIVELY throwing gross insults about.

Or is this too complicated for your up/down, left/right, good/evil crayoned in world?

To help you on your way:

The Holocaust industry, by Norman G. Finklestein, Verso books (www.versobooks.com) ISBN 1-85984-323-9 £8/$13. Has a very extensive set of references and bibliography.

jackslucid
mail e-mail: jackslucid@hotmail.com


JacksBNP NotLucid

08.06.2003 12:15

Firstly, Finklestein doesn't question the 6 million figure -he denigrates Jews who have sought reparations for their economic losses. And he's as far from the "the jewish authorities" as you can get - he's a college professor who speaks mainly to Arabs and leftist radicals. The reason you can't offer an actual reference is one does not exist, except of course for the BNP and Nazi sites that you enjoy so much. So fuck off, racist.

Die BNP Fuck


take it easy jimmy

08.06.2003 12:32

Jack has been peddling his neo-Nazi garbage for some time now and we have learned not to pay any attention to him.

chris


Well ...

08.06.2003 15:08

... if you want to be deluded thats up to you, as they say you can lead a horse to water ...

... you ask for the evidence, it is provided (I wonder if you have actually read the book, or chased up the references?) but then claim when it's presented that it's not good enough ... but because you believe that the author is ... what? ... to friendly with arabs to be a proper jew? ...

... you are joking yes?

... I don't know which is sadder, the blinkers you use to hide (you don't agree with me, therefore I'm a nazi/bnp supporter - a seering analysis[not]) or the delusion you place yourself under (radicals, intellectuals are cueing up to listen to YOUR fabulous and important thinking?!?)

... I'm not going away and neither is the movement towards understanding the way the 20th century has made fools of us all, your purile insults do nothing to me but make me stronger ... those who can think for themselves will do so and find broader knowledge than your small fry ...

no justice no peace.

jackslucid
mail e-mail: jackslucid@hotmail.com


Anybody looking for facts?

08.06.2003 15:23

Anbody looking for facts about what the jews have done (ONLY) in Palestine, consider this; IF SOME BODY HAS RAPED YOUR WIFE, YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO RAPE HIS WIFE. so, jewish lovers just take the jews to where they have lived during the last 2.5 thousand years and it is Europe. By the way Hitler and Nazies are no longer in control but the west is ruled by the original Nazies the jews.

Jaafer


how to spot the difference

08.06.2003 21:36

Facts are Nazism and anti semitic pogroms were the birth place of hate and racism. Nazis have only their innane greed and selfishness to blame for the destruction of their aryan nations.

Nazis cannot forever blame Jews for everything, even their own demise and stupidity. Lets us look at what Nazis have done to the peoples of this world.

Nazis are responsible for the brutalisation, degradation, dehumanisation, torture and murder of whole races, such as Jews, communists, gypsies and anarchists. By sinking to new depths of babarity, brutality, sadism and cruelty nazis have betrayed their own race and brought shame, revultion and disgrace on their own people.

Nazis are responsible for creating a replica of themselves Nazionists, mutated out of damaged, brutalised, dehumanised
holocaust survivors. Jews moulded and mutated into the form and shape of their golden boy aryan gestapo stormtrooper concentration camp jailers/abusers. Out of the ashes of concentration camp inmates, nazionists emerged, so brutalised, subjugated and dehumanised they adopted and copied the social policies of Adolf in their dealings with their palestinian neighbours. Jews and Judaism are totally different from the nazionist mutation.

Neo nazi uber capitalists may blame Global Jews for the whole worlds ills as a smokescreen to distract us from underhand Aryan multinational corporate companies insatiable Global pillaging, profiteering, brutality, injustice and greed. Just as Adolf and his gestapo henchmen used race hate, and anti-semitism as a smokescreen to raid and pillage the wealth, properties, and treasures of Jews and others in europe. The nazi party's main goal, was the acquisition and theft of wealth/land from the weak and helpless. Greed, self-profit and monetary gain were at the backbone of nazism. Just as today with top nazi Bush it is the motivation for the Iraq war and other wars.

The Bush nazi family dynasty is responsible for its own greed and evil doing, not Global Jews. There is a clear difference between Jews, Judaism and aryan ultra right wing neo nazi gentiles like Bush. Nazi Bush has a lot in common with ultra right wing Israeli neo nazionists, but he is the polar opposite of Jews and Judaism. Please don't equate Jews with scum like the greedy Bush nazi family dynasty,.

yossela
- Homepage: www.netureikarta.org


absolutly correct

09.06.2003 00:53

... that is the kind of analysis [I] am striving for ...

... the recognition that the problems of warfare and resource control we face today are not only directly related to the fearful and wanton distruction practiced against many peoples in the last century, but that those who manipulated and profited then do so now - almost, in some cases, as as unbroken dynasty.

I don't recognise the use of religion, race or the curse of money as being any basis for deciding the future of even one life ... only when we rid ourselves of these distorting delusions and realise that we do better collectively (like the 90% of living matter that live symbiotically and are always sidelined by the glamour[sic] of preditor/prey social darwinism and asscoiated philosophies that run the minds of those in power), will we ever be free.

Distortions and delusion, although often comfortable and easy, should not form the basis for any revolutionary action (which, I imagine, we are all in some way striving towards) and that means pinning down precisely who did what to whom, when and what they said - there can be no substitute (but, as I am becoming painfully aware, a myriad of competing interpretations).

I am sorry if some of you have convinced yourselves that my pursuit of a higher understanding, however clumsey, marks me out as worthy of such bile and [false] accusation, but get over it! You are no nearer to the truth about me or the events we are trying to unravel.

In peace, but with difience.

jackslucid
mail e-mail: jackslucid@hotmail.com


ok jimmy, thats fair...

09.06.2003 16:22

I'll undertake to find time to dig out links for you, if you promise to come back in two days and read them, and at the same time you actually respond directly to any three you choose of my ten paragraphs above debunking Krebbers posting.

I hope neither of us are mindless bigots, and I am certainly open to logical persuasion on any point I put forward. But it must be calm and logical. And you must accept that you cannot fairly argue from religious beliefs that we do not share.

If any of the rest of you are able to find the time to post "reduced numbers" links, I would be grateful for the help, as I have limited time.

But I do want to lodge one protest. It is not I who have chosen to make this an issue. In my opinion half a million is as evil as six. I mentioned it originally only as an objection to what I saw as lazy blinkered thinking by the poster, indicative of a closed and prejudiced mind.

I agree to further address this point only on that basis, NOT because I think the number significant in itself.

You agree to my terms, then, Jimmy ?

getting weary


Any granfaloons will do...

23.08.2004 23:46

Obviously, even though, of course, Jews are not the only Semites, never the less, in common usage 'anti-Semite' means bigotry against Jews. And anyone who bothers to distinguish between oppression and "Jewish oppression" is probably an anti-Semite. As for criticizing the Israeli left, I only wish! Because criticism of the left anywhere is important, for anyone who ever hopes to see improvement in the status quo. Rather, the anti-Semites seem reluctant to even mention or at all acknowledge dissent within Israel or Judaism whatsoever.

After all, any scriptures are generally full to the brim both of lofty ideals and also violent hateful barking madness, alike, impossible to reconcile. Religion, after all, inspires just about anything one ever cares to rationalize, for good or ill.

Indeed, the staged conflict between petty nationalist thugs is cynical tool to obscure, marginalize and crowd out anything better, and condemn all the peacemakers and champions of democracy as traitors. As Orwell observed, there is only one war, the perpetual war of the oppressors against the oppressed. And in order to divide and conquor, any granfaloons will do.

Aaron Agassi
mail e-mail: agassi@erols.com
- Homepage: http://www.FoolQuest.com