A question on animal rights and anarchy.
S.K | 04.06.2003 18:29 | Animal Liberation
One notable exclusion to the anarchist argument (which is the finest argument, have no doubt!) is the question of animal rights. In the event of the working class overthrowing the boss class and re-structuring the work places and communities based on equal share of wealth, equality, liberty et all ... What would happen to factory farms, fish farms, slaughterhouses, butchers shops and other places of exploitation towards the animal kingdom?
What would happen to the establishments of exploitation and the workers of said places? Would they just be re-structured according to anarchist principles or would they be torn down?...
And what of the animals who have always suffered in every way more than their human counterparts ... how would they enjoy the new anarchist state of liberty?
I'm just a bit puzzled on this one ... help me out people.
cheers.
What would happen to the establishments of exploitation and the workers of said places? Would they just be re-structured according to anarchist principles or would they be torn down?...
And what of the animals who have always suffered in every way more than their human counterparts ... how would they enjoy the new anarchist state of liberty?
I'm just a bit puzzled on this one ... help me out people.
cheers.
S.K
Comments
Hide the following 18 comments
A follow-up question
04.06.2003 18:48
uncertain
As luck would have it...
04.06.2003 19:43
(Before looking at it realise that quite a bit of it is taking the piss between friends, so don't think everyone's being bitchy!!)
My personal feelings are that if/when workers take over their workplaces, most people will stop doing jobs which are largely pointless, like working in Banks or whatever. I think this would probably happen in the meat industry (which is highly environmentally destructive) and would think that if people really wanted meat they would have to kill the animals themselves.
George's Bush
Homepage:
http://enrager.net/forum/index.php?s=fdbfb7447e267cbee81d1737f5fe70b3&act=SF&f=4
non vegetarians
04.06.2003 20:01
lots of people keep pigs and sheep on the balcony of the eighth floor of their tower blobk.
sceptic
More properly
04.06.2003 23:01
But killing and butchering an animal safely is an acquired skill, and not one easily learned in a towerblock. By necessity, someone in the community would have to supply meat for those not so trained.
But to answer the original point, of course factory farms and all that goes with them would have to disappear. Of course animal testing would disappear - there would be no need, since noone would be making cosmetics or artificial pharmeceuticals. If animals are to be used at all under an anarchist system, there has to be an education process to allow each collective to learn from the past and to treat the animals as humanely as possible.
Just my two pennworth...
Brian
huh?
04.06.2003 23:15
x :)
pharmas
05.06.2003 00:21
The Animal Rights movement claims that animal testing is scientifically crap, and only done for profit - in that case in an anarchist system there will be no need for animal testing.
Even if they're only partly right, I'm sure if lab workers ran their own workplaces they'd be keen to harm as few animals as possible - cos no one likes doing that...
George's Bush
Homepage:
http://anarchistyouth.net
no cosmetics?
05.06.2003 00:26
oh, and:
"My personal feelings are that if/when workers take over their workplaces, most people will stop doing jobs which are largely pointless, like working in Banks or whatever."
The snag about workers taking over workplaces is that in most cases they are not qualified - e.g., schools, hospitals, power stations. Banks not needed? Are you going to abolish money? In which case, how do you do things like starting up chip factories to make these rather spiffy things called computers which you are using to spread your message?
sceptic
ha ha
05.06.2003 00:43
>The snag about workers taking over workplaces is that in most cases they are not qualified - e.g., schools, hospitals, power stations.
That is an excellent one!
Who do you think makes them run at the moment??
Cos it sure as hell ain't the shareholders.
Are you a student or something? Cos everywhere I've worked, the employees do all the work while the shareholders just rake in the cash.
>Banks not needed? Are you going to abolish money? In which case, how do you do things like starting up chip factories to make these rather spiffy things called computers which you are using to spread your message?
Firstly the main thing you're misunderstanding is that money can't actually start a factory. What you need is human labour - people to design it, build it, work in it, maintain it etc.
Money doesn't mean much - it's just a mediator. I'm not saying it should be abolished - it's largely irrelevant.
If you want to go into more detail, I'd suggest going to the anarchist FAQ below, or going on the discussion boards at infoshop.org
George's Bush
Homepage:
http://www.anarchistFAQ.org
Don't worry
05.06.2003 09:27
Capitalist Running Dog
Not worried .. .
05.06.2003 11:41
at all. I thought what a state we'd be in, anarchist society and all, and still be requiring the labors of groups like the A.L.F. But anarchy will be a long time coming. As we sow the seeds so they grow. As the shit we live in gets worse, the alternative looks brighter.
... interesting comments and ideas.
S.K
shareholders
05.06.2003 11:57
I've worked for over 30 years, and there were no shareholders in any of the places I've worked. Actually, in most modern economies, most shares are hold by the likes of pension funds, and relatively few by indiviuals. Shareholders may rake in cash from firms that make a profit; they also stand the risk of losing all their holdings if a firm goes bust. The employee can always get another job; the shareholder's stake is lost and gone for ever.
"Firstly the main thing you're misunderstanding is that money can't actually start a factory. What you need is human labour - people to design it, build it, work in it, maintain it etc. "
Oh, no I'm not. Before any large scale project can begin, the finance has got to be in place. How do you pay the human labour before the factory produces goods.
"Money doesn't mean much - it's just a mediator. "
Of course. But it still needs banks and the like to handle it.
sceptic
my 2 pence
05.06.2003 12:36
ALL animal testing is wrong what gives us the right to test on animals?! would we be having this argument if it was the other way round? or if Aliens came down and tested on us????
i think not! and yes most if not all animal testing is shit scientifically because the only true means of testing a drugs suitability is by testing it on Humans!
about the whole veggie thing i think all farms factories and business involved with animal exploitation should be shut and and yeah if you want to eat meat go kill it! and the argument about not having the ability to keep animals in a tower bloc is silly as animal farming would be banned so you'd have to go down to your local field and go find a cow! in terms of keeping animal suffering to the minimum while doing so well that would be down to the individual carying out the act if you cant find a pratical solution to killing quickly and making it suffer goes against your conscience then dont kill eat and go eat some fruit.
also as the monetary system would be abolished paying someone to do it wouldnt happen and either way getting someone to do it for you would also be banned unless your providing for children
all in all have a look at nature and get ideas from that after all we are all animals at the end of day!!!!
JB
From an enviromental point of view
05.06.2003 12:37
As a vegetarian (and i don't mean to piss off any carnivores who are reading this) I believe that vegetarianism is more beneficial to the envionment, for example, an area of farmland can provide up to 10 times more actual food if crops such as wheat, oats, (or even hemp) were grown on it compared to if it was used for fattening livestock for meat. With many of the world going hungry, meat seems such a waste.
But anyway, that's just my opinion, if people (pre and post revolution) want to eat meat, let them do so, so long as the animal was not pumped full of unessecary drugs and hormones, and has a decent life before it wound up on someone's plate.
Thomas J
food for thought
05.06.2003 13:49
It would have to go. Now presumably you'd have to enforce that - pass laws [but there's no parliament] and enforce it with policemen [but there wouldn't be any police]. And under anarchism, would you have the right to tell anyone else what to do? That surly implies an authority of some kind. Where would that authority be vested?
sceptic
mmmmmmmmm
05.06.2003 13:52
In reply to the Tower block comment.
Lets tear the tower blocks down :-)
Bill
Info on anarchism
05.06.2003 18:25
www.afed.org.uk
www.infoshop.org
A-Head
no rules...
06.06.2003 04:39
just imagine what would happen if you and your family/friends went to live on a desert island and never had any contact with the outside world, you'd have to co-operate and make agreements, you'd have to, theres nothing else.
f-iw
Anarchy And Animal Liberation
17.08.2003 01:15
Uncivil D.