Whats the problem? So what if SWP & muslims form a new party..it will provide an alternative to the mainstream parties...AND give us SWP hacks the chance of power, on a muncipal level at least!...
Its islamophobia *not* to vote for our brand new, oppourtunist, barmy army! As for women, gays etc..well now we in the SWP have hoodwinked, sorry I mean fused on an open and honest basis with our Muslim buddies..well women and gays can go to hell!
As always we will campaign agianst, (shudder..) working class peoples interests deriding them as 'scum' of the estates..after all theres plenty of cannon fodder, i mean new comrades to be won in our jolly jihad against Capitalism (WH Smith & Muslim businessmen excepted of course!)

Look, let me just say, and please listen,: SWP your oppourtunism has, quite literally, shocked even me.

Your assumption that all Muslims have reactionary views on women and gays is so ridiculous it borders on plain Pim Fortyn-style racism.

While I'm no fan of the SWP or political parties generally this kind of attack is ridiculous - would you claim that all Christians or all Jews were sexist homophobes?

Obviously not.
There's an interesting article on the site below about anti-muslim sentiment in the anarchist community, but it could apply equally to other groups too. You should read it...

Er, yes I do say Christianity & judaism are homophobic..being Jewish myself Im more than aware of the prejuidice that exists in ALL religions..

Explain why, just because its islam i should go f**k myself when it comes to lesbian, women & gay rights?

You sicken me: if a muslim attacked me (as has happend to my asian partner) you would blame ME as it being my fault for 'islamophobia'

Go back to mummy & daddy or join the bnp if thats how you feel

Looks like there will be riots this summer.

Don't join a party, have a party.

Why don't all you ranters here, be you a self proclamied 'anarchist', or a SWPer, or whatever, stop moaning about your petty issues, get out there, and ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING!!!


(eerie silence follows)

P.S.: If you flame me back expecting a reply you're wasting your time, this comment will be the only one from me one this so called 'article'.

Glad to see that you think sexism and homophobia are 'petty issues' Thomas you fascist w**nker..maybe if you had had two big muslim blokes beat you up, like as happend to my asian partner, shouting bits from the koran then you'd think twice before being so self righteous you prat

I was stupid enough to not have read the article properly, and mistook it for yet another SWP vs anarcho-snob article (i think that would be the fifth in as many days).

Hence I retract my previous comment.

As for who I really feel about this SWP-Muslim party issue? Too much has not been said for judgement to be passed, but it seems like that SWP is jumping on another bandwagon and leaving behind the very people who it claims to be acting in it's best intrests (no change there then). I abhor all forms of discrimination, including Islamphobia, homophobia, sexism, racism, and the like, and just because we are showing solidarity with Muslims around the world because many of them are having the shit bombed out of them by the so called "allied" forces, we cannot jump into bed with the fundalmentalists, extremists are extremists, by they Musilm, Hindu, British, Christian, Jewish, whatever, and they are as bad as each other.

Having now read this properly and realising that it is not a 'petty' issue, I will offer my apology to anyone who wants it.

(clue: no)

Whatever else you think of them, the SWP unequivocally support equal rights for women and gay people and have put their members where their mouth is in feminist and gay liberation protests and campaigns over the years.

In fact a number of IMC regulars have attacked them for being 'obsessed' with these 'middle-class liberal' issues!

They're also strongly anti-racist, and reckon that the most dangerous (and violent) racism at large at the moment is anti-Muslim. So they seek to stand in solidarity with Muslims under attack. If that automatically makes them sexist and homophobic, what about the rest of us?

I guarantee that any new political formation the SWP take part in will stand AGAINST racism, sexism and homophobia.

"I guarantee that any new political formation the SWP take part in will stand AGAINST racism, sexism and homophobia."

How?

From what I learned from the articles above the SWP is to merge with an islamist antisemitic and homophobic party. How can an organsiation that has continued the antizionist Jewish socialist worker´s tradition, and was lead for decades by a person with a Jewish background, cooperate with antisemites? I´d be interestes what comrades with a Jewish background think of this?

The article has left me confused, and the following comments even more so. Altho i am a member of the SA,but not the SWP, tho not in Sheffield, I have no inside info. but I do not see any problem with the SA trying to form links with the Muslim community and working with Moslem groups. Especially kashmiri ones. Most people on the left know about Palestine, but kashmir does not recieve nearly enough attention. I also do not see that working with Moslems alienates other ethnic groups.( i am a Hindu, altho i am not particualarly religious) the majority of the Moslem and asian community came to Britain after WW2 to do the jobs that many white people did not want to do. Most moslems and other asians and black people, tho not all, in this country are solidly working class.( and yes, many asian business people are as bad as white business people, and sometimes worse) They suffer not only economic oppression but also racial oppression and have done for a long time. Also the kind of cultural ignorance and prejudice that some of the above comments seem to suggest are unfortunately typical of much British culture. Whether you like it or not, and i suspect you do not, these people do need some kind of political representation. None of the major political parties speak for most working class moslems and asians. Furthermore, altho i would like to see nothing more than a socialist revolution in this country, for most working people, it seems like a distant dream. Anarchism and direct action, which has great merits,is largely confined to white 'alternative' culture. It has no links with the asian and black communities as a whole. this is a shame and it can be remedied, and i hope it will ( a la Rudolf Rocker and the Yiddish community B4 WW2). I think the future of the left should be to try and form links with ethnic groups who are the most in need of political representation and who can see the truth of socialist analyses most clearly. These communities will see the rebirth of the left in the UK. For example, many white Britons find it hard to believe that Britain is an imperialist country and that the UK has done and is doing so many evil things over the world. Yet, for people from the former colonies, this is obvious. they are the natural allies of the left. Interstingly, the SLP has links with the IWA, or indian workers association, and despite its Stalinism, it at least has that link. On the issues of homophobia and sexism, i am also opposed to these things, but is this typically islamic? I do no think so. In fact i would go so far as to say most moslems, like most people in general, are not that bothered about homosexuality, only a few fanatics are. (read about william burroughs in tangiers, homosexualiy exists everywhere, even moslem countries) In many of the anti-war demos, Moslem women were often the most vocal. Also, do you not think that large sections of the white working class are also homophobic and sexist. Or black west indian culture ( try listening to some Ragga lyrics). Are the tabloids not sexist and racist? Also, how do we win people over to our views? Is it by labelling them as Asian Fascists and not working with them? Islamic fundamentalism, like Hindu fundamentalism, is a fairly recent political growth. Socialism, by concentrating on the unity of the working class, actually acts against inter ethic racism and other reactionary views. One thing is clear tho, the kind of white middle class preaching about homophobia and sexism is not convincing.why? because white liberals have no real connections with working class experience. To most asian black, and white working class people, white liberal culture does not mean an awful lot.To convince people of the evils of homophobia we have to show we are on the same side as they are.

Lets get this straight: the SWP have NOT been at the 'forefront' of the struggle against homophobia OR sexism! Can anyone give ONE shred of evidence for that?
In fact with their class reductionist approach to oppression (ironic as 99% of the SWP are smary middle class gits) they ignore if not support sexist & homophobic oppression!
Evidence?: eg Im old enough to remember their socialist-feminist magazine 'Women's Voice' that the (male) heirarchy closed down when women SWPers started to analyse the patriarchial structures of the SWP!
As for homophobia: the SWP have done SQUAT (and , no, selling a few papers on Pride once a year dont count!)..indeed at the picket of the MOBO awards due the homophobic 'artists' getting awarded their the SWP dismissed the OUTrage! picket as "racist"..so dont give the large about the SWP giving a damn for women or gays..
Is anyone going to seriously say that islam (and yes you fretting liberals im against all religions too..and not just when islam is critiqued!) is NOT sexist/homophobic?
Imagine being a lesbian in traditional muslim area: your white liberal guilt would soon dissapate in the reality of religious verbal and physical assault...
If the SWP were halfway decent they should be sticking up for the oppressed and presenting an alternative to people like my gf on these estates rather than marching hand in hand with islamic reactionaries over the bodies of the oppressed...

'Is anyone going to seriously say that islam...is NOT sexist/homophobic?'

Yes, I am. Islam is no more sexist or homophobic than Christianity or Judaism. Sexist/homophobic violence is horrific and needs opposing everywhere. It weakens that fight to mix it all up with stereotyping and scapegoating of Muslims; it undermines Muslim sisters in their own community, while at the same time distracting from the sexism and homophobia in 'mainstream' society.

And as for 'marching hand in hand with islamic reactionaries over the bodies of the oppressed' I don't seem to remember marching over any bodies of the oppressed on Feb 15; could you remind us where they were?

All holy scriptures can be hijacked or distorted to be racist, sexists, and/or homophobic. This is particulary true of all of the main Judeo-Chrisitian religions (that is Islam, Christianity, and Judaism). However, there are nice people in those religions that don't subscribe to any of thoses 'isms' or 'phobias' (I can still say that while maintaining a skepicism of the religion, can't i?) but they tend to be blocked out by the fudalmentalist/envangelical nutters.

For the record I'm an agnostic with no real 'religion'.

Kurious Oraj, Thomas etc:
You laughably say that there's No sexism in Islam?
Do you *really* believe that? Have you *ever* READ the quran?

chapter 4:35 of the quran authorises the beating up of women..the tafhim al-quran states that muhammed 'permitted' a man to beat his wife to a bloody pulp..rape is explictly promoted by stating that no wife can refuse the sexual advances of her husband..and paedophilia is celebrated by the statement that a father may force 'his' daughter to marry as young as aged 9

So because 'the West' (as if we are a monolithic block!) bombed a secular dictatorship in Iraq that makes opressed people suffering under the tyranny of islam islamophobic? What crazy 'logic' is that??
Did the bombing of Serbia make all those suffering in Serbia Christophobic? In fact where were you all then? Or is it not trendy enough a cause when its poor europeans getting butchered?

but as I said in my previous comment, words can be distorted.
Yes, religions are inherently oppressive, I was just saying that the don't mandate the muder and beating of people, it's people's intrepreations of the scripture that does. Thats understandable, as I have never read the Koran, but if it is anything like the Bible, it is riddled with gross contraditctions.

Thomas: its not just people who mandate oppression it *is* the scripture! As ive just posted: Islam defends, tolerates, supports: beating of women, raping of wives and paedophilic traffiking in children: its all there...
Perhaps this new SWP/Muslim Party could state its position on these matters?

Heather: ": Islam defends, tolerates, supports: beating of women, raping of wives and paedophilic traffiking in children: its all there..."

The bible defends some or all of the afformentioned practices, are you now going to tell me that all Christians are wife-beaters, rapists and peadophiles???

Heather, have you ever read the Bible? Ever read Leviticus and all the hair-raising misogyny in there? And, yes, the Old Testament also endorses slavery and child abuse.

Yet most Christians and Jews are perfectly nice folk, just like most Muslims. It makes more sense to judge people of faith by how they live, not by some selected words from their centuries-old holy books.

Should we tackle sexist and homophobic violence? Yes. Should we tackle child abuse? Yes. But should we exploit genuine concerns over these issues as yet another way of having a pop at Muslims? I say no. What do you say?

Interesting and amazingly ignorant responses by so many of the above comments. Firstly, i think it is very difficult for may white British people, even and maybe especially to those on the left, to have any kind of deep understanding of religion. Most comments on religion are crude and most importantly, not convincing to believers of those religions or those born in those religions. Religion has not played a major part in British mainstream life and intellectual culture for a long time, maybe since the 1930s. Outside of most of Western Europe however, religion plays a vital role in identity and holding together communities, giving communities a link to their past and providing morals and values.This is not necessarilly a good or bad thing, but it is the way that it is. Ironically, capitalism and the breakup of traditional forms of life tends to destroy religious belief and as a reaction to this comes fundamentalism, or the forced attempt to hold on to religious belief that is no longer believable. for immigrants or children of immigrants to this country, religion is one of the ties to their mother country. Do you seriously expect someone to give up their culture for a culture where they are not fully accepted in and which is not, in the last instance theirs? Secondly, on homophobia and sexism,yes these do occur in Islam (and i have read the quran) but equally in other religions. The point however, is that a group that defines itself as Moslem is not necessarilly a fundamentalist group. Most British people if they go to hospital put COE as their religion, yet they are hardly Christian and do not believe every word of the New testament is the word of God. Likewise with most Moslems. On the MOBOs , Tatchell and other white liberals preaching outside an event that is catered to mainly black working class people is not convincing. Why? Because Tatchell and his followers does not seem to have any connection with most black working people, with their experience in this country, and most traditional societies, such as those of the west indies and asia and parts of europe, do not accept open homosexuality. ( covert homosexuality is another matter). It is interesting tho, that so many of you anarchists or liberals, so keen to preach tolerance, do not tolerate other cultures if their values differ from yours.

Criticism of religions is good. But the question is when? Do you criticise a religion when it is being attacked from all sides by the reactionary press, the right wing politicians and members of the religious community are made to feel excluded. yes, criticism is good, but if you join in the criticism of a community that feels threatened and is constantly attacked, do not be surprised if that community sees you as an enemy and an ally of Bush/Blair etc. Yes, criticism is good, but criticise at the right time and in the right circumstance, and in the right way, that is have some respect and knowledge about what you are criiticising. thank you

In fact im more than aware AS ALREADY STATED of the views of other religions for example see the encyclical Immortale Dei (1885) for a shocking view of women within Catholicism..

BUT: you are (deliberately?) missing the point!

We are talking about a POLITICAL party made up of the SWP and RELIGIOUS organisations (Salma Yacoob, as well as being a noted sectarian shite, is also a 'professional' Muslim).

So we have a Party that will try to change society in accordance with its beliefs. What will these beliefs be? From the SWP: zilch: these rank opportunists would wave swastika's if they thought they could soak up a few recruits..

So we are left with the social and ethical perspective being of that of Islam. Now lets be clear to a muslim the Quran is NOT open to liberal 'interpretation' but IS on a par with god himself: indeed many believe that the Quran is 'uncreated'.

So do you think this Party will have its policy on gays, women etc made up of bits of last weeks Socialist Worker? Or from what Muslims believe to be the Will of God?

So you see im not 'singling' out muslims: it is a SWP MUSLIM party that is being lashed up not a SWP CHRISTIAN party!

Does your cheap PC hotch potch of an ideology really prevent you from seeing that!

No Platform for SWP/Muslim party!

Really Heather, you are just ranting.Yo have no point with which to disagree with. You also seem very ignorant about islam and i suspect about religion in general. You may be gay, but the whole world does not revolve around the issue of homosexuality. For most people it is fairly irrelevant. This does not justify homophobia , but i just do not think it is the issue you think it is. Also Heather, you seem to be echoing many of the sentiments of Pym Fortyn in Holland. I take it that this is not deliberate.If the SA form a coalition with some moslem groups, i do not think that is the same as endorsing all fundamentalist moslem beliefs. It could be a successful political alliance that will take the left out of the cul de sac it is in. But, most importantly, what should the attitude of the left be to moslems then, Heather? The stop the war coalition was successful in mobilising so may people because it included moslem organisations such as the MAB. If STW did not work with Moslem groups it would only have been the same old faces, the usual lefty suspects...

She has already made up her mind that all Muslims are evil peadophiles, they go about raping and beating women up because God said they should.

And you had the nerve to call me a fascist...

Oh so i quote from the Quran in an ealier post, from hadith (thats the sayings of muhammed), from a papal encyclical etc etc BUT IM the one whose ignorant of religion? I think your misogyny has got the better of you!

You have not dealt with a SINGLE point I have made? Why? Because you know Im pointing out FACTS!

The world doesnt revolve around gays: what a patronisng comment: you would NEVER make that comment about muslims!

As for the picket of MOBO being ignorant of Black culture: bollox! There are plently of gays suffering in Jamaica for one (one of whom, my friend, showed me the scars from being tortured for being gay) so dont give me the old 'its their culture' crap!

The ONLY reason women and gays have ANY respite in the uk is NOT due to some metaphysical culture but because its been FOUGHT for...any of you w**kers heard of the Pankhursts? The gay liberation front? Womens Lib?

Bending the knee to oppression under the guise of respecting culture makes me sick. Do you really think the next muslim girl to get raped for being 'unislamic' will be thinking 'thank god white middleclass men defend my cultures right for my cousin (or whoever) to rape me'

GET A GRIP!

I still dont get it Heather. Are you suddenly a world expert on islam that all should bow to your superior knowledge? Islam is bad because Heather says it is... Heather has flicked through the quran a couple of times and done a GCSE in religion... Facts? quotes taken out of context, which anyone can do. Yes, oppression of gays is bad, and yes oppression of women is bad... does not equal islam is bad.And it does not equal that the left should not work with moslem groups. Maybe you should let moslem women speak for themselves and gay people from moslem backgrounds speak for themselves. maybe they can a little more coherent...Your point on rape of a moslem girl was really a cheap shot, as you portray this as the norm in islamic society, and it is not. As for womens lib, great,i do know of their struggles, but let the moslem women and gays organise their own liberation, and check out nawal el sadawi the great egyptian feminist author... Also, women were given the right to divorce in Islam right from the beginning, this was not the case in Christianity until much much later. I suspect very much most moslem women would find what you say very offensive and very ignorant. You should write for the daily mail.

She should try 'Spearhead', or 'Identity'.

Interesting discussion so far but I´m still not sure whether the SWP is really on another verge of starting a new wave of opportunistic hoovering up of any raw recruit be he even the scummiest racist sexist homophobe. But what I detect on indymedia uk is that you Brits seem to display a certain naivite´ under the excuse of giving free speech to anyone. (e.g), there is one openly racist article from a US white supremacist group on indy today and another more covert right wing extremist conspiracy theory article by the LaRouche sect. You should be more carefull who´s using you. It seems that the SWP and indy is giving credit to the accusations of some current of the German left against the British left, and against the anti-cap and the anti-war movement in general accusing them of collaborating with inside "diagonal fronts" with fascists, antisemites and Islamists who joyfully jump on their bandwagon.

Effendi: first you bleat that I "know nothing" about Islam, then when I make you eat your words by showing that Im well versed in it like the pathectic little boy you are retreat to trying to mock my knowledge! Whats a matter? Scared that someone has actually read the quran and got its filthy little secrets out in the open?
Thomas: oh you make me laugh..as I completely blown all your defences of sexism in the guise of the defence of islam out the water you retreat to calling me a Nazi! Its YOU & your muslim mates who share the same view of women as the BNP..
Can ANYONE actually deal with the points I made rather then just dishing up a load of half baked assertions?
Oh and yes muslim women HAVE tried to speak for themseleves..I suggest, for example, you look at the literature of the International Federation Of Iranian Refugee's if you trivialise the rape of women by claiming its not routine in islamic countries, in the name of islam.
Oh whats that? You *dont* know any real refugees? i guess to scum like you lot THEY are part of this 'islamophobic' conspiracy too....
Boys huh....

Heather, do you know any Muslim sisters?

And if you don't like it, you can go to hell as far as I am concerned, you single out Islam while other religions are just as bad, the BNP would love you heather. I don't give a monkey's what you think, you twisted bigot.

Here's what the International Gay and Lesbian Association has to say about the Qu'ran and homosexuality.

Overview of Islamic Law and Homosexuality

The development of Islamic Law (Shari'a Law), and its application in Islamic countries, is an extensive and complex subject. This page provides a brief overview of the sources and development of Shari'a Law, and outlines the elements of most importance in relation to homosexuality.

1. Sources

The primary source for Islamic Law is the Koran. The second element is known as the Sunna, these being the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed and his oldest disciples not explicitly found in the Koran. The third element of Shari'a Law is known as the Ijma. These are rules developed on the basis of debate and subsequent consensus among religious scholars and the Moslem community as a whole. When these three main sources fail to provide adequate guidance, they are supplemented by a system in which the jurist can draw parallels with the first three sources (the Qiyas). Finally, there are several other methods for developing judgements, each of which allows increased use of discretion by the jurist. These latter sources allow for the development of Shari'a Law in more liberal jurisdictions, but are rejected in more conservative jurisdictions.

2. Application

In practice there are considerable differences in the application of Shari'a Law:

The major divide is between the Shiite (mainly Iran) and Sunnis (all other Islamic states). They have different texts for the Sunna, while in general the Shiite only accept the Koran and Sunna as the sources of Shari'a. However, even within the Sunni branch of Islam there are four different legal schools: of these, the most liberal is the Cairo-based Hanafi School, while that based in Saudi Arabia, the Hanbali School, is very conservative, rejecting any statement not firmly based on the Koran or Sunna.

In addition to these differences, individual Islamic states vary in the extent to which Shari'a Law is applied. Turkey lies at one extreme, with the government regarding Islam as a matter of private religious practice. At the other extreme lie fundamentalist Islamic States such as Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan.

3. Penal laws

Islamic law divides criminal acts into three categories:

(i) Hudud (also known as "Had") (crimes against Allah); these offences are similar to the ten commandments of the Jewish-Christian tradition, and include theft, adultery, defamation, highway robbery, use of alcohol, apostasy, and rebellion. The punishments for these offences are specified in the Koran and Sunna, and include the amputation of hands and feet of thieves, the stoning of adulterous Moslems to death, and 80 lashes for public drunkards and defamers.

(ii) Quesas (crimes against the person): these crimes include varying degrees of murder and assault. Punishment includes the family of the victim retaliating with a "death-blow" against a wilful murderer. The victim however can also waive punishment or ask for blood money.

(iii) Ta'azir, or penalties not fixed by the Koran or Sunna, include embezzlement, sodomy and perjury. These offences are considered to threaten one of the five essential guarantees of Islam: to practice religion, to develop the mind, to procreate, personal security, and the possession of property and wealth. The Islamic judge has the power to use his or her discretionary judgement when determining punishment, but is restricted to the Koranic range of accepted punishments, which includes reprimand, threats, boycott, public disclosure, fines, imprisonment, flogging and the death penalty for such crimes as sodomy or espionage.

In some Islamic states Ta'azir crimes are set by the Parliament. Each state is free to establish its own criminal code and there is a great disparity in the punishments for some of these crimes.

References: most of the above text is based on "Islamic Law: Conflicts and Contrasts with non-Islamic Legal Systems" by Teresa Allen and "Islamic Law: Myths and Realities" by Dennis J. Wiechman, Jerry D. Kendall and Mohammad K. Azarian..

4. Homosexuality and Islamic Law

The following excerpts from the chapter "Islam" by Maarten Schild in "Sexuality and Eroticism Among Males in Moslem Societies" edited by Arno Schmitt and Jehoeda Sofer (Harrington Park Press) give an account of the attitude of Islam to male and female homosexuality, and their treatment by Shari'a law.

Male homosexuality
Islam considers sexuality an absolutely normal and natural urge of every human being. Symbolic of this positive attitude is the important place sex is accorded in paradise.... Islamic representations of paradise depict a height of delights, with, among other things, girls whose virginity is continually renewed, immortal boys as beautiful as hidden pearls, perpetual erections and infinite orgasms. On earth, however, because of human imperfection, sex has a problematic side, which makes regulation necessary. Unregulated sex threatens the social order, and leads to anarchy and chaos, and therefore has to be restricted to marriage...... Social order and the God-given harmony of life are threatened by the suppression of sexuality in celibacy and by sexual acts outside of marriage, heterosexual as well as homosexual.......... Sexual activity outside of marriage, adultery, is sharply condemned by Islamic law as a crime against humanity, which opens the door to many other shameful acts, and affects the reputation and property of the family, thereby disrupting the social fabric.

Homosexual behaviour (liwat)... is considered to be adultery, being sex with an illicit partner. A person who performs such actions (luti) is considered as extraordinarily corrupt, because he challenges the harmony of the sexes and topsyturvies God's creation.

The Koran and the Hadith
In the Koran, homosexual behaviour is explicitly condemned: "And as for the two of you who are guilty thereof, punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, let them be." (4: 16). Homosexual behaviour is further mentioned in the parable of the apostle Lot, which is repeatedly told in the Koran, and relates of the corrupted and evil-minded people of Lot's village, who transgressed consciously against the bounds of God. The behaviour of these unbelievers was considered evil in general, their avarice led to inhospitality and robbery, which in turn led to the humiliation of strangers by mistreatment and rape. It was their homosexual behaviour, however, that was seen as symptomatic of their attitudes, because it was regarded as "an abomination such as none in all the world has ever committed before."............

In the Hadith, homosexual behaviour is condemned harshly: "whenever a male mount another male, the throne of God trembles"......... if you see two people who act like the people of Lot, then kill the active and the passive".

Legal Sanctions
The punishment that the Islamic jurists generally prescribe for adultery, and therefore also for homosexual behaviour, is stoning to death for married people, and 100 lashes for unmarried people...

Discouragement and repentance are considered more important than punishment, therefore the following conditions have to be met before condemnation is possible: four adult Muslims of the male sex, of unblemished integrity of character, have to swear that they have been eye witnesses to the carnal act itself. Less than 4 witnesses will lead to a punishment of the witnesses themselves, while the false accuser will receive 80 lashes, because of slander. Perpetrators can only be condemned when adult, Moslem, sane, and acting out of free will. A confession is sufficient for condemnation, if four times repeated. Before it is accepted, however, the judge has to point out to the accused the consequences of his confession, and the fact that repentance before the giving of testimony will be punished less harshly.

The fulfilment of all these conditions seems almost out of the question, leading to the conclusion that in practice it is only in very exceptional circumstances that persons are convicted and punished for adultery, and thus for homosexual behaviour."

Lesbianism
Of female same-sex behaviour (musahaqa) almost nothing is known. Islamic law considers it sex outside of marriage and therefore as adultery, with all the consequences already described. Yet because no penetration takes place, punishment is theoretically limited to 100 lashes."

For more information on lesbianism, see "Woman-Woman Love in Islamic Societies" by Stephen O. Murray, chapter 5 of "Islamic Homosexualities", edited by Stephen O. Murray and Will Roscoe (New York University Press)

Jim Wafer in "Muhammad and Male Homosexuality" (Chapter 4 of Islamic Homosexualities) brings out the fact that the treatment of homosexuality was not uniform: " there must, in fact, have been a diversity of opinion about the Prophet's views on the matter, since the sex between males was treated differently by the various legal schools, on the basis of differing interpretations of the traditional literature. All the legal schools regard sex between males as unlawful, but they differ over the severity of the punishment. The Hanafite School maintains that it does not merit any physical punishment, because of the hadith "Moslem blood can only be spilled because of adultery, apostasy, or homicide. The Hanbalites, on the other hand, believe that sex between males must be punished severely. They draw on the quranic references to the rain of stones that destroyed Lot's people, on the hadith about stoning and on later authorities."

MY COMMENTS ON THE DEBATE:

IT SHOULD BE FAIRLY OBVIOUS THAT THE QU'RAN CONDEMNS THE ACTIONS OF THE PEOPLE OF LOTS VILLAGE.MANY MUSLIMS HAVE DEBATED EXACTLY WHAT ALLAH IS OBJECTING TO-IS IT GAY SEX IN GENERAL OR THE FACT THAT THE PEOPLE OF LOTS VILLAGE ARE INTERESTED IN MALE RAPE.

CLEARLY THERE ARE DRACONIAN LAWS USED AGAINST LESBIANS AND GAYS IN VARIOUS MUSLIM COUNTRIES.BUT HAVING ALSO VISITED ISTANBUL I'VE OBSERVED A MUCH MORE LIBERAL INTERPRATION OF THE RULES.AS I UNDERSTAND IT THE ARABIC AND WESTERN VIEWS OF SEXUALITY AND HOW PEOPLE BEHAVE ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.
MY OWN BELIEF IS THAT A LOT OF HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOUR TAKES PLACE IN PRIVATE BUT IS UNACKNOWLEDGED AS SUCH AS IT WOULD BE IN THE WEST.

I'VE GOT A LOT MORE TO SAY ON THE SUBJECT OF THE SWP AND MUSLIMS WHICH WILL HAVE TO COME AT MTY NEXT TEA BREAK.

Vanessa Redgrave would now have to put on the veil, the burqa and atone for the movies she did where she was starkers or be stoned.

Dear Heather

RE:your comments to Effendi about homosexuality being irrelevant.

The majority of people in Iraq have had an appaling time in recent years.I should imagine that they very concerned as to whether their child will have enough food to eat today.
So yes for them homosexuality is irrelevant.

I'm quite clear about the fact that my life has been affected by homophobia.But let's face it at the end of the day I go home to a nice bedsit with a fridge full of food.
The bigger picture is more important that's why I went on all the marches.

A bit of advice-when people challenge your arguments try to argue coherently rather than calling people "silly little boys".

Claire the Lesbo Librarian

Its senseless to say: 'heather you cant talk about homophobia cos iraq was bombed' so then if some one said 'you cant talk about iraq cos 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust' would you agree? Thus is your 'logic'..

And yes 'silly boys' is the best way to describe the sexist and homophobic responses Ive had from the Male Left on this site...

No to Male Violence
No to the Heirarchy of Oppression!

Dear Heather

Re:your comments

You might think that the blokes who posted comments are being sexist-I don't

re:talking about homophobia-I never said we shouldn't I just pointed out that sometimes we have to accept that other issues have to take precedence.

re:my logic-how is it my logic?.

Claire the Librarian

The reason why Muslims are singled out as being more reactionary than others is because the Muslim community is by and large religious and proportionally more Muslims go to Mosque than 'Christians' go to Church in Britain. 'Christendom' is no longer Christian, there isn't a single theocracy or anything resembling a theocracy in Western Europe, the closest thing is probably Ireland.

By contrast, if we look to the Muslim world we see a very different picture.

It isn't good enough to say Christians and Jews are just as bad, maybe they were, but those Christians and those Jews and generally those Christians who were Christian are no longer Christian and those Jews who were religious are now mostly secular.

I wonder, are we going to see SWP support for Islamist riots in the future?

Attacks on Muslims didn't increase during the Iraq war, anti-semitic attacks did though. Interesting that, what an oppressed people those poor Muslims are…

Fucking SWP!

it seems to me that Heather and her partner have experienced genuine hate and hurt and I ask - why are you all so insensitive to this? Cut some slack for someone who has experienced her own suffering and dared to try and put it into words.
Sometimes people shout cos they think no-ones listening...

I would like to add that I am not going to get into the religion as homophobic argument. People show intolerance in many different ways it dosent have to be religion it can be any kind of dogma, as this thread shows. I dont think the men on this thread are sexist, just grossly insensitive, filled with only theory. Likewise, I would guess Heather is getting a verbal beating because no one wants to listen to her, and thats why shes so mad - I would guess that she is perhaps the only one here who has had actual physical experience of being victimised and beaten because of who she is (I dont count police beatings) and that should be respected. You can theorise all you like but when someone starts to beat you and your loved ones just cos of who you are, then theories can kinda go out the window, or get muddied.

I would also like to add most strongly that I am not (knowingly)homo, islamo, or anything else phobic, but if someone attacks me without provocation I'll take that INDIVIDUAL to be my enemy. Therefore I can sympathise with Heather, without agreeing with everything she says. Hope you are ok Heather, all this flamings done my head in.