Authoritarians
Anti-Authoritarian | 22.05.2003 10:38
There has been a debate raging on the url below in response to the Mark Thomas article slagging the SWP. THe debate is now more broadly anarchist/communist/statist. Whenever i have seen things similar posted here many have just slated it at stupid in fighting. the response below taken from the debate is to an authoritarian communist, making exsuses for mass murder, execution of anarchists etc.
Basically id like to know wheter all you anti-war and anti-capitlaist types still feel like this is merely 'in-fighting' and whter you have any problem with the authritarian nature of this type of thing
http://uk.indymedia.org:8081/front.php3?article_id=68674&group=webcast
>I do not believe that authority, discipline, order, and >heirachy and a centralised state are bad in themselves.It >just depends on who is in control, and yes we Marxists >would like to have this power.
And that is why you are authoritarian and it is completely pointless for people fighting for liberation to build any links with you or people like you.
>Yes, things need to be imposed on others, especially the >ruling class.If you side with the ruling class, either >consciously or mistakenly, like the Krostadt sailors, you >deserve to be crushed.
Once more what more evidence do people need NOT to work with the likes of YOU and the SWP? Anarchists, dissidents and other 'undesirables' would be labeled 'counter revolutionaries' and ruthlessly killed.
>If you are serious about change you have to ask yourself >how is it going to come about? You cannot answer this. You >know in your heart what i say is true, which is why you >try so hard to deny it.
Absolute crap!
>You do not want to give up your 'freedom' and join a party.
I do not want to join a pary because my revolt isnt a single issue revolt against 'capitalism' but about ALL manisfestations of oppression and power. The State (all states) are my enemy as, centralised power is my enemy, and a system that oppresses nature is my enemy - not JUST CAPITALISM or the CURRENT ruling classes. YOU would be the NEW RULING CLASS.
>Would you rather have Cuba as a US puppet state than a >socialist state, however imperfect?There is no anarchist >alternative in the case of Cuba. I think it would be hard >to argue that Cuba would be better off as a US puppet >state and still be an anti-imperialist. China, Cuba, USSR >and others have been a great success especially if you >remember the situation of those countries before >socialism.
I waht way has communism been a success for these countries and the people in them? Are you saying the murder of Stalinetc was justified? Part of a long term strategy?
> anarchism does not exist as a serious alternative in any >3rd world countries.
Anarchy has been practised for milennia by variosu stateless indigenous socieites.
>Anarchism is not a threat. Why? Because it cannot deliver >the goods.
Authoritarian communism is NO threat, what world do you live in? the left is dead...
>anarchist has become a communist, but never has a >communist become an anarchist.
Murray Bookchin has.
I do not respond to your comments re the 'classical' anarchists you mention because i see my theories or narchy and those of my closest comrades very differently. You mention 'morality' but all the anarchists around me are ANTI morality.
The most important past of being an anarchist to me is being ANTI AUTHORITARIAN and fighting authoritarianism - this is whether if is state capitalism, state communism, or wankers like you that would have people wgho strugle for more than a new set of bosses shot, and who say that the mass murder of stalin etc was a good thing (implied in your comments on USSR etc).
I REALLY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO THINK THAT DEBATES ABOUT THE SWP AND OTHER AUTHORITARIAN STATISTS think of the comments made this guy. Do you still see it as 'in-fighting' is your critique of capitalismyour only critique?
Basically id like to know wheter all you anti-war and anti-capitlaist types still feel like this is merely 'in-fighting' and whter you have any problem with the authritarian nature of this type of thing
http://uk.indymedia.org:8081/front.php3?article_id=68674&group=webcast >I do not believe that authority, discipline, order, and >heirachy and a centralised state are bad in themselves.It >just depends on who is in control, and yes we Marxists >would like to have this power.
And that is why you are authoritarian and it is completely pointless for people fighting for liberation to build any links with you or people like you.
>Yes, things need to be imposed on others, especially the >ruling class.If you side with the ruling class, either >consciously or mistakenly, like the Krostadt sailors, you >deserve to be crushed.
Once more what more evidence do people need NOT to work with the likes of YOU and the SWP? Anarchists, dissidents and other 'undesirables' would be labeled 'counter revolutionaries' and ruthlessly killed.
>If you are serious about change you have to ask yourself >how is it going to come about? You cannot answer this. You >know in your heart what i say is true, which is why you >try so hard to deny it.
Absolute crap!
>You do not want to give up your 'freedom' and join a party.
I do not want to join a pary because my revolt isnt a single issue revolt against 'capitalism' but about ALL manisfestations of oppression and power. The State (all states) are my enemy as, centralised power is my enemy, and a system that oppresses nature is my enemy - not JUST CAPITALISM or the CURRENT ruling classes. YOU would be the NEW RULING CLASS.
>Would you rather have Cuba as a US puppet state than a >socialist state, however imperfect?There is no anarchist >alternative in the case of Cuba. I think it would be hard >to argue that Cuba would be better off as a US puppet >state and still be an anti-imperialist. China, Cuba, USSR >and others have been a great success especially if you >remember the situation of those countries before >socialism.
I waht way has communism been a success for these countries and the people in them? Are you saying the murder of Stalinetc was justified? Part of a long term strategy?
> anarchism does not exist as a serious alternative in any >3rd world countries.
Anarchy has been practised for milennia by variosu stateless indigenous socieites.
>Anarchism is not a threat. Why? Because it cannot deliver >the goods.
Authoritarian communism is NO threat, what world do you live in? the left is dead...
>anarchist has become a communist, but never has a >communist become an anarchist.
Murray Bookchin has.
I do not respond to your comments re the 'classical' anarchists you mention because i see my theories or narchy and those of my closest comrades very differently. You mention 'morality' but all the anarchists around me are ANTI morality.
The most important past of being an anarchist to me is being ANTI AUTHORITARIAN and fighting authoritarianism - this is whether if is state capitalism, state communism, or wankers like you that would have people wgho strugle for more than a new set of bosses shot, and who say that the mass murder of stalin etc was a good thing (implied in your comments on USSR etc).
I REALLY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO THINK THAT DEBATES ABOUT THE SWP AND OTHER AUTHORITARIAN STATISTS think of the comments made this guy. Do you still see it as 'in-fighting' is your critique of capitalismyour only critique?
Anti-Authoritarian
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