Peter Mortimer, it would be nice if you told people, Tanya Reinhart is a communist in Israel. She's one of the most radical leftist. She's been called an anarchist.

Until the Palestinian corrupt terror leadership is removed, their terror groups dismantled and disarmed, and incitement to hate among their population ended, there really is no point in considering the folly of "pressuring" Israel to accede in the creation of a terror state right on its doorstep.

If Palestinians disagreed with the offer, the correct response was counteroffer and continue negotiations. Instead, the Palestinians left and embraced a strategy of terror against civilians in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and Haifa. Is there any justification for rejecting negotiations and sending suicide bombers to intentionally murder children in restaurants? Or is this what Arafat refers to as his phase by phase plan to destroy Israel.

If you want to know what Arafat really intends, you have to read his speeches in Arabic, rather than the niced-up English ones intended for Western consumption. In these Arabic speeches he constantly suggests that he wants all of Israel; all of Jerusalem. He often cites the relationship between Mohammed and the Qureishi, in which a temporary peace was made so that one could become stronger and then try to wipe out one's opponents. He has massively violated Oslo in orchestrating and financing terrorist attacks. He constantly praises the murderers of Israeli women and children as "martyrs", suggesting they be emulated.

He is clearly signalling that his long-term intention isn't peace, and that current negotiations are simply tactics.

Who actually walked out of negotiations and started a war?

The current situation in gaza/west bank is a RESPONSE to the terrorist intifada started by Palestinians.
Palestinians were in control of over 90% of their own land at the time they began their new intifada. Israel went back in the West Bank in an attempt to squash the nutcases that refuse to stop attacking.

Suicide bombers are coming from Arafat's Fatah Al-Aqsa Brigade, even as Arafat meets with European Envoy’s to pledge his devotion to peace. Arafat wants a situation, where Israel negotiate's during the day and get killed at night.

Muhammad Hashaika, the homicide bomber who blew himself up March 21 on Jerusalem's King George Street had been arrested by the PA after possessing a belt filled with explosives which he planned to explode at a Ra'anana shopping mall.

But then the bomber was released from a Palestinian prison last week, according to Israeli and Palestinian security officials.

The bomber belonged to the Al-Aksa Brigades, part of Arafat's own Fatah faction. Last year, the U.S. State Department added the Al-Aksa Brigades to its list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs).

Matthew Kalman of USA Today (March 14) reported that most members of the Al-Aqsa Brigade receive salaries from Arafat's Palestinian Authority. And USA Today quoted Maslama Thabet, a leader of the Al-Aqsa Brigade, who said: "The truth is, we are Fatah itself... Our commander is Yasser Arafat himself."

Hussein A-Sheikh, a Fatah leader in the West Bank, seems insulted when USA Today asked whether the Al-Aqsa Brigade is under Arafat's control. "Of course, there is control. What do you think? That we are just a bunch of gangs?"

On March 22, Associated press reported seeing a document with Arafat's signature personally approving a payment to Atef Abayat, a leader of the Al Aqsa Brigades responsible for the murder of at least 5 Israelis. The payment is noted on one of the 100,000 documents seized from Orient House last August.

A Palestinian terrorist has told USA Today that his orders to kill Israeli citizens come from Yasser Arafat.
 http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/3/142002f.asp

Fred Jackson and Chad Groening
March 14, 2002

(AgapePress) - A Palestinian terrorist has told USA Today that his orders to kill Israeli citizens come from Yasser Arafat.

The paper identifies the terrorist as 33-year-old Maslama Thabet. He says the group he leads, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, is an integral part of Fatah. Fatah, headed by Arafat himself, is the largest group in the Palestinian Authority. In the interview, Thabet says "we are the armed wing of the organization ... we receive our instructions from Fatah ... our commander is Yasser Arafat himself."

The newspaper notes that in a televised address last Saturday, as Palestinians launched suicide attacks in Netanya and Jerusalem, Arafat urged Palestinians to "sacrifice themselves as martyrs in jihad for Palestine."

The report in USA Today goes on to quote Palestinian Authority officials who say most members of the Brigade receive salaries from Arafat's Palestinian Authority. As an example, it says the leader of the Brigade in Nablus is a salaried officer in the Palestinian National Security Force, one of 14 armed police and security services that report to Arafat.

Thabet's admission would seem to confirm what conservative activist David Horowitz says about Arafat, that he is a "murderer and a terrorist." Horowitz says Yasser Arafat is not motivated by any desire to establish a Palestinian homeland, as widely reported in the media.

Horowitz, who is president of the Center for the Study of Popular Culture, says the Palestinian strongman is motivated by hate. "Yasser Arafat is a murderer and a terrorist," he says. "Arabs got 90% of the Palestine mandate, and Jordan is still a country which contains 80% of the land mass of the so-called ‘Palestine mandate.’ Something like 70% of the Jordanian population are Palestinian. They never want a state in Jordan because it’s not run by Jews. They’re Jew-haters, that’s what they are. They’re Christian haters."

Horowitz believes Secretary of State Colin Powell is "weak" when it comes to his dealings with Arafat. "I think Colin Powell is very bad on this issue, as he is on many issues; but, he’s a tremendous strength for the Republican Party being there," he says. "As long as Bush keeps his head on his shoulders and keeps him in check, I’m happy."

Horowitz believes Arafat should be on a top ten most-wanted list because he says the Palestinian terrorist was responsible for killing an American ambassador.

 http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=14650
Monday, November 25, 2002
The Hamas advocates Killing Jews, simply for being Jews

The Iz-Adin Al Qassam Brigades, the military wing of the Hamas, published (23 November 2002) a bulletin on their official website, advocating the murder of Jews simply for the fact of that they are Jews.

The bulletin was published to commemerate the anniversary of the death of Imad Akal, a senior Hamas official, killed in the Gaza Strip on November 24, 1993. The bulletin quotes Akal as saying: "We will knock on the doors of Heaven with the skulls of the Jews". The bulletin depicts an axe shattering the word "Al-Yahud" (Jews) and splintering the skulls of Jews. The words Al-Qassam are engraved on the axe.

... you told us that you are a fanatical zionist that believes a sky ghost gave you authority over us 'goyim' to dispose of as you will ...

So, the israelis want a negotiated settlement based on the following:

israeli rights;
a huge army
a huge airforce
a huge navy
a huge amount of military equipment all funded and paid for by someone else [usa tax payers]
a stash of illegal Weapons of Mass Distruction
the right to decide the PA leadership
the right to decide defense and internal security issues for the PA
rights over ALL;
Water
Commerce
Entry and exit
Funding and Banking

In addition to this, you offer no reparations for the land stolen, the hope dashed and the lives snuffed out.

You demand the right of return of anyone even vaugely jewish to israel, but no right of return for any Palestinian, even those with valid and legal claim to land seized.

You demand that israel be allowed to encircle Palestine with a ring of steel that removes a further 10 - 15% of 'their own land' as you admit it.

You claim that Palestinians rejected the 'peace' offer.
Who signed the oslo accords?

You claim that the Palesinians violated oslo.
I thought it was the incursion by the non govenmental politician sharon with a 1000 GOVENMENT soliders (where did he get them from?) onto the doom of the rock during friday prayers, to claim it for greater isreal, following which expected reaction dozens of unarmed Palestinains were gunned down.

Who walked out?

The Palestinians have been constantly pleading with the international community for assistance, for UN monitoring, for diplomacy and negotiations.
The israelis demand that they prostrate themselves naked and unarmed before them before even listening.

90% of their 'own' land you say you offered them - I walk into your house, steal $£100, get 'caught' and demand that you can only have $£90 back, someone else has to pay it and that if I need to I come and take it again ... oh and only if you promise never to go into your kitchen again!!!

Jew haters and christain haters???
Hating christians must make it akward for the sizable minority of Palestinians who are christians. As for hating jews, well in as much as this in its self is deplorable, it is a phenomena, but not a universal as you claim, in fact I am constantly amazed at the depth of analysis of the Palestinains I have met and talked to - most of them recognise the political dimensions in this as being the most significant part, and many Palestinian organisations make immense efforts to acheive some kind of bond and link with israeli/jewish organisations.

Joel/dan entity, your thinking is tired, put it to sleep.
The point in history where great movements turn is approaching for israeli civil society. They have a choice ... to grow up and live in peace and equality or to attempt to dominate those forces and people that it currently oppresses and risk losing all.

Except that those making this decision risk very little, it won't be their lives on the line - they'll slip out at night when the position becomes untenable only to appear back in new york, moscow etc etc with their fortunes intact and they're historical mistakes behind them.

No justice no peace.

Joel's reply astounds me. Despite all the usual stuff - personal attacks on sources etc etc, he takes no issue whatever with my actual description of the nature of the offer Arafat rejected.

A huge part of the entire Zionist justification for all their atrocities since has been "we offered them everything they wanted but they walked away". So the nature of that offer is hugely significant, particular since it was offered as "not for negotiation - take it or leave it - thats all your getting" (according to Malley). Thank goodness the details are finally leaking out. Though it's only a tiny whisper against the roar of the mighty Israeli Propaganda Machine, in which Joel is a cog.

Why Arafat, by keeping quiet, donated them this huge propaganda victory for free I simply cannot tell. He must be either crazy or evil. As crazy and evil as Sharon. Both should go.

So by implicitly accepting my description of the offer, Joel has cut off his own legs. Though he couldn't see it until I now point it out. He probably feels the offer I describe was perfectly fair and reasonable. will he be back to say otherwise ?

... to why my comment has been removed.

What is the process that allows the article -distorted as it is - to stand and my comment not to?

As you can imagine, not only am I mystified and upset at this random behaviour ... in fact I think it is pretty low.

It is entirely reminiscent also ... having studied a lot of history I observe that the collapse of dissent begins with self censorship and then moves on to censoring others.

I am trying to think nice thoughts about IMC UK but it is becoming increasingly hard when met with a wall of silence and a scissor[sic] happy invisable hand.

How dare you ... how dare you.

jackslucid, no idea why your comments have been hidden, i couldn't see why they would have violated the editorial guidelines [  http://uk.indymedia.org/censor.php3 ]. i have restored them. still i'd appreciate if people wouldn't constsantly rant about 'invisible hands' and other paranoic stuff about imcuk censorship. of course we 'censor' - and we're very open about it. just read the edit guidelines in the link above. communication is going on the features list, a publicly browsable email list at  http://lists.indymedia.org/listinfo/imc-uk-features - and please don't be paranoid if that list is not accessible (as it is not at the moment) - the mail server for ALL indy lists is down... just give people who donate their time a chance, will you?

Please accept my apologies for:

a) getting a bit hot under the collar
b) acting in haste
c) losing my faith in the imc uk process

I will offer no defence on all three counts, but I am interested to know in more detail the process that removed almost every post I made yesterday - apart from frustrating me, confusing me and irritating me, I must admit to feeling somewhat in despair at the possibility of imc uk being 'nobbled'. If this meets the criteria for being paranoid - guilty again (still a healthy dose of paranoia can do wonders for the functioning efficiency of the brain!)

I will make an increased effort to be patient and a special effort to remain courteous at all times, as not only is this the right thing to do - but the most efficient also.

Thank you for taking the time to address my issues despite my bad behaviour[?]