Anarchy in Iraq?
Anarcho | 17.04.2003 21:59
Anarchist article explaining why Iraq is not in "anarchy" and what anarchists
think is required in order for anarchy to actually exist.
think is required in order for anarchy to actually exist.
Anarchy in Iraq?
After the fall of Saddam's dictatorship, a wave of looting
erupted in towns and cities across Iraq. The media was
outraged, often more concerned about stolen property than
the civilians wounded and murdered by the US invasion. It
was proclaimed that Iraq was falling into "anarchy." This
is unsurprising, if annoying, for anarchists. It is
worthwhile to explain why the chaos in post-Saddam Iraq is
not anarchy nor, in fact, a case against anarchism.
Kropotkin once said that "without disorder, the Revolution
is impossible" and he was right. Every revolution has been
marked by "disorder," by strikes, riots, looting and so on.
However, in social revolutions such periods are short
lived. Inspired by ideas and hope for the future, the mass
of people quickly go beyond the destructive phrase of
popular revolt and start the construction of a new world.
So Kropotkin argued against the idea of "one-day
revolutions" and the idea that a revolution could occur
independently of popular struggle and mass movements. A
"structure based on centuries of history cannot be
destroyed by a few kilos of explosives," he correctly
stated. Anarchy would be the product of collective struggle
at the heart of society, not the product of external
shocks. "To make the revolution," he argued, "the mass of
workers will have to organise themselves. Resistance and
the strike are excellent means of organisation for doing
this." Thus it was "a question of organising societies of
resistance for all trades in each town . . . against the
exploiters . . . of federating them . . . Workers'
solidarity must no longer be an empty word but practised
each day between all trades and all nations." In the
struggle against oppression and exploitation, we not only
change the world, we change ourselves at the same time. So
it is the struggle for freedom which creates people capable
of taking the responsibility for their own lives,
communities and planet. People capable of living as equals
in a free society, so making anarchy possible.
Therefore, what happened in Iraq is not an example of
anarchy. As George Barrett put it, the strength of the
state lies "in the superstition of the people who think
that it is right to obey [it]. So long as that superstition
exists it is useless for some liberator to cut off the head
of tyranny; the people will create another, for they have
grown accustomed to rely on something outside themselves."
This means that "if, then, by some external means" the
state was destroyed then people would "rebuild the old
society." However, if "the people develop their ideas of
freedom, and then themselves get rid of the last stronghold
tyranny -- the Government -- then indeed the Revolution
would be permanently accomplished." Like Kropotkin, he saw
anarchist revolution in terms of working class people self-
organisation and direct action, with the capitalist class
"abolished by the people so organising themselves that they
will run the factories and use the land for the benefit of
their free communities, i.e. for their own benefit . . .
The only thing then that will be put in the place of
government will be the free organisations of the workers."
This has not happened in Iraq. Rather, the government has
been destroyed by quite a few kilos of explosives.
Unsurprisingly, therefore, chaos rather than anarchy
resulted. It cannot be denied that
the looting is, in part, a reaction to inequality and class
society. It is a form of wealth redistribution. Nor can it
be denied that some of the looters see their actions as a
form of justice. "Every single item that we take is the
blood of the people," said one. However, it is not the end
of private property, simply a change in who claims to own
it. This can be seen from the irresponsible attacks on
hospitals and other resources that should be held in
common, not squandered by breaking them up and destroying
them.
Aware of this, anarchists are not in favour of looting as
such. Anarchists, to quote Luigi Fabbri, "do not think of
expropriation in terms of some sort of 'help yourself'
operation, left to personal judgement, in the absence of
any order. Even were it possible to predict as inevitable
that expropriations, once disorder sets in, would take on
an individualistic complexion . . . anarchist communists
have no intention of adopting that sort of an approach as
their own." In other words, collective expropriation must
replace individualistic looting. Instead, he pointed out
that the working class has its "own, free institutions,
independent of the state" (such as federations of unions
and co-operatives) to achieve the end of private property
and that "during the revolution other collective bodies
more attuned to the needs of the moment will be set up."
And this is the problem in Iraq. There has been no popular
movement that created the framework of a new society while
fighting the old. Rather we have people who, in the main
(and so far), have not seen beyond statism and capitalism
taking advantage of a break down of the state and its
protection of property. Can we be surprised that chaos
ensured?
Now the Iraqi people have three choices. They can accept
the rule of the US, either freely or be forced to. This
seems the most likely, although it will be imposed by force
upon a population which, while anti-Saddam, is also anti-
US, its occupation and the wealthy, westernised Iraqi
exiles it wants to rule the country. Or they fall behind
some new nationalist gang aiming for state power. This is
less likely. Or, finally, they can start to construct their
own ways of getting society back on its feet in a way that
will be in their interests. This is the anarchist solution
and would result in a true anarchy, a society of free and
equal people co-operating together freely.
Impossible, it will be asserted. Far from it. No society
could survive without its libertarian elements, elements
which often come to the fore in periods of intense struggle
and change. Every struggle and revolution has seen
anarchist ideas and practices develop spontaneously as
people draw the obvious conclusions from their own
experiences, They have seen free, self-managed,
organisations develop whenever the people have freedom of
initiative. The French revolution had its sections and
communes, the Russian revolution its soviets and factory
committees, the Spanish revolution its unions, collectives
and co-operatives. These were the bodies that turned riot
into revolution, expropriating capital for the benefit of
all and allowing society to be run from the bottom up (at
least for a time). So in terms of what anarchism is, we
don't need to speculate about how Iraq shows the failure of
anarchism. Its necessary preconditions do not exist. The
historical examples of anarchism in practice show how very
different real anarchy is.
The creation of new socialist and libertarian institutions
is, therefore, always a possibility. The Iraqi peoples'
experiences may push them towards anarchist conclusions,
the awareness that the state exists to protect the wealthy
and powerful few and to disempower the many. That while it
is needed to maintain class and hierarchical society, it is
not needed to organise society nor can it do so in a just
and fair way for all. This is possible. There is a history
of Shoras (workers councils) in Iraq, so many have an
example of working class self-organisation that can be
applied. So we cannot dismiss the possibility that the
chaos in Iraq may be replaced by true anarchy, the self-
organisation of a self-managed society.
Unfortunately the odds are stacked against this. The Iraqi
people have had their state destroyed for them and are now
subject to an occupying power. So although developments
towards real anarchy are possible, it is unlikely to
happen. But we can hope. And if this does happen, the Iraqi
people will have to defend their freedom from two enemies.
Firstly, the US/UK occupation forces. These have no
interest in seeing a functional grassroots democracy be
built from below. And, secondly, those in Iraq who seek to
maintain inequality in wealth and/or power. Without a
conscious anarchist presence any libertarian tendencies are
likely to be used, abused and finally destroyed by parties
or religious groups seeking political power over the
masses.
During these events the US occupying power has made its
priorities clear. While letting essential services like
hospitals and priceless historical treasures be looted, the
US army secured oil fields and defended only two government
ministries (namely of Oil and of the Interior). When US
officials boasted that oil production would restart soon,
people across Iraq were wondering when the same would be
said of their water, food and electricity supplies. But, of
course, this war was not about oil so this must be a
coincidence.
Nor should we be surprised by the fact that the US is
reintroducing the old regime's police force. They did the
same all across Europe and the Far East after defeating the
fascists, where they replaced popular anti-fascist
committees with fascist politicians and businessmen. We can
expect to see the Baath state resurrected, but with a new
leaders at the top. And who knows, perhaps this policy of
tolerating chaos and looting is part of a plan to "win
hearts and minds," to get people used to the idea of a US
dictatorship presiding over Saddam's police force as the
alternative would be chaos?
And, lastly, it is doubtful that the US and UK government's
tolerance for "public disorder" in Iraq will be applied in
regards those seeking meaningful regime change at home.
Number 10's recognition that oppression and exploitation
produces resistance and rebellion will not be applied here.
We will be expected to obey the state like good citizens
and be punished if we step out of line. After all, we live
in a democracy. It's not like the government simply ignores
the wishes of the population in favour of pursuing policies
that only benefit the few at the expense of the many and
the planet we live on...
For more information on Anarchism, visit "An Anarchist FAQ":
http://www.anarchistfaq.org
After the fall of Saddam's dictatorship, a wave of looting
erupted in towns and cities across Iraq. The media was
outraged, often more concerned about stolen property than
the civilians wounded and murdered by the US invasion. It
was proclaimed that Iraq was falling into "anarchy." This
is unsurprising, if annoying, for anarchists. It is
worthwhile to explain why the chaos in post-Saddam Iraq is
not anarchy nor, in fact, a case against anarchism.
Kropotkin once said that "without disorder, the Revolution
is impossible" and he was right. Every revolution has been
marked by "disorder," by strikes, riots, looting and so on.
However, in social revolutions such periods are short
lived. Inspired by ideas and hope for the future, the mass
of people quickly go beyond the destructive phrase of
popular revolt and start the construction of a new world.
So Kropotkin argued against the idea of "one-day
revolutions" and the idea that a revolution could occur
independently of popular struggle and mass movements. A
"structure based on centuries of history cannot be
destroyed by a few kilos of explosives," he correctly
stated. Anarchy would be the product of collective struggle
at the heart of society, not the product of external
shocks. "To make the revolution," he argued, "the mass of
workers will have to organise themselves. Resistance and
the strike are excellent means of organisation for doing
this." Thus it was "a question of organising societies of
resistance for all trades in each town . . . against the
exploiters . . . of federating them . . . Workers'
solidarity must no longer be an empty word but practised
each day between all trades and all nations." In the
struggle against oppression and exploitation, we not only
change the world, we change ourselves at the same time. So
it is the struggle for freedom which creates people capable
of taking the responsibility for their own lives,
communities and planet. People capable of living as equals
in a free society, so making anarchy possible.
Therefore, what happened in Iraq is not an example of
anarchy. As George Barrett put it, the strength of the
state lies "in the superstition of the people who think
that it is right to obey [it]. So long as that superstition
exists it is useless for some liberator to cut off the head
of tyranny; the people will create another, for they have
grown accustomed to rely on something outside themselves."
This means that "if, then, by some external means" the
state was destroyed then people would "rebuild the old
society." However, if "the people develop their ideas of
freedom, and then themselves get rid of the last stronghold
tyranny -- the Government -- then indeed the Revolution
would be permanently accomplished." Like Kropotkin, he saw
anarchist revolution in terms of working class people self-
organisation and direct action, with the capitalist class
"abolished by the people so organising themselves that they
will run the factories and use the land for the benefit of
their free communities, i.e. for their own benefit . . .
The only thing then that will be put in the place of
government will be the free organisations of the workers."
This has not happened in Iraq. Rather, the government has
been destroyed by quite a few kilos of explosives.
Unsurprisingly, therefore, chaos rather than anarchy
resulted. It cannot be denied that
the looting is, in part, a reaction to inequality and class
society. It is a form of wealth redistribution. Nor can it
be denied that some of the looters see their actions as a
form of justice. "Every single item that we take is the
blood of the people," said one. However, it is not the end
of private property, simply a change in who claims to own
it. This can be seen from the irresponsible attacks on
hospitals and other resources that should be held in
common, not squandered by breaking them up and destroying
them.
Aware of this, anarchists are not in favour of looting as
such. Anarchists, to quote Luigi Fabbri, "do not think of
expropriation in terms of some sort of 'help yourself'
operation, left to personal judgement, in the absence of
any order. Even were it possible to predict as inevitable
that expropriations, once disorder sets in, would take on
an individualistic complexion . . . anarchist communists
have no intention of adopting that sort of an approach as
their own." In other words, collective expropriation must
replace individualistic looting. Instead, he pointed out
that the working class has its "own, free institutions,
independent of the state" (such as federations of unions
and co-operatives) to achieve the end of private property
and that "during the revolution other collective bodies
more attuned to the needs of the moment will be set up."
And this is the problem in Iraq. There has been no popular
movement that created the framework of a new society while
fighting the old. Rather we have people who, in the main
(and so far), have not seen beyond statism and capitalism
taking advantage of a break down of the state and its
protection of property. Can we be surprised that chaos
ensured?
Now the Iraqi people have three choices. They can accept
the rule of the US, either freely or be forced to. This
seems the most likely, although it will be imposed by force
upon a population which, while anti-Saddam, is also anti-
US, its occupation and the wealthy, westernised Iraqi
exiles it wants to rule the country. Or they fall behind
some new nationalist gang aiming for state power. This is
less likely. Or, finally, they can start to construct their
own ways of getting society back on its feet in a way that
will be in their interests. This is the anarchist solution
and would result in a true anarchy, a society of free and
equal people co-operating together freely.
Impossible, it will be asserted. Far from it. No society
could survive without its libertarian elements, elements
which often come to the fore in periods of intense struggle
and change. Every struggle and revolution has seen
anarchist ideas and practices develop spontaneously as
people draw the obvious conclusions from their own
experiences, They have seen free, self-managed,
organisations develop whenever the people have freedom of
initiative. The French revolution had its sections and
communes, the Russian revolution its soviets and factory
committees, the Spanish revolution its unions, collectives
and co-operatives. These were the bodies that turned riot
into revolution, expropriating capital for the benefit of
all and allowing society to be run from the bottom up (at
least for a time). So in terms of what anarchism is, we
don't need to speculate about how Iraq shows the failure of
anarchism. Its necessary preconditions do not exist. The
historical examples of anarchism in practice show how very
different real anarchy is.
The creation of new socialist and libertarian institutions
is, therefore, always a possibility. The Iraqi peoples'
experiences may push them towards anarchist conclusions,
the awareness that the state exists to protect the wealthy
and powerful few and to disempower the many. That while it
is needed to maintain class and hierarchical society, it is
not needed to organise society nor can it do so in a just
and fair way for all. This is possible. There is a history
of Shoras (workers councils) in Iraq, so many have an
example of working class self-organisation that can be
applied. So we cannot dismiss the possibility that the
chaos in Iraq may be replaced by true anarchy, the self-
organisation of a self-managed society.
Unfortunately the odds are stacked against this. The Iraqi
people have had their state destroyed for them and are now
subject to an occupying power. So although developments
towards real anarchy are possible, it is unlikely to
happen. But we can hope. And if this does happen, the Iraqi
people will have to defend their freedom from two enemies.
Firstly, the US/UK occupation forces. These have no
interest in seeing a functional grassroots democracy be
built from below. And, secondly, those in Iraq who seek to
maintain inequality in wealth and/or power. Without a
conscious anarchist presence any libertarian tendencies are
likely to be used, abused and finally destroyed by parties
or religious groups seeking political power over the
masses.
During these events the US occupying power has made its
priorities clear. While letting essential services like
hospitals and priceless historical treasures be looted, the
US army secured oil fields and defended only two government
ministries (namely of Oil and of the Interior). When US
officials boasted that oil production would restart soon,
people across Iraq were wondering when the same would be
said of their water, food and electricity supplies. But, of
course, this war was not about oil so this must be a
coincidence.
Nor should we be surprised by the fact that the US is
reintroducing the old regime's police force. They did the
same all across Europe and the Far East after defeating the
fascists, where they replaced popular anti-fascist
committees with fascist politicians and businessmen. We can
expect to see the Baath state resurrected, but with a new
leaders at the top. And who knows, perhaps this policy of
tolerating chaos and looting is part of a plan to "win
hearts and minds," to get people used to the idea of a US
dictatorship presiding over Saddam's police force as the
alternative would be chaos?
And, lastly, it is doubtful that the US and UK government's
tolerance for "public disorder" in Iraq will be applied in
regards those seeking meaningful regime change at home.
Number 10's recognition that oppression and exploitation
produces resistance and rebellion will not be applied here.
We will be expected to obey the state like good citizens
and be punished if we step out of line. After all, we live
in a democracy. It's not like the government simply ignores
the wishes of the population in favour of pursuing policies
that only benefit the few at the expense of the many and
the planet we live on...
For more information on Anarchism, visit "An Anarchist FAQ":
http://www.anarchistfaq.org
Anarcho
e-mail:
anarcho@geocities.com
Homepage:
http://www.struggle.ws/anarchism/writers/anarcho.html
Comments
Hide the following 13 comments
The white factor
18.04.2003 10:30
They (Iraqis) are not white!!
Anarchism, the way you take pain to define is only possible in the *affluent* west the domain of the white (Damn! I might as well admit to this)...people.
You see the Iraqis as much as the oppressed majority of the planet are reacting due to poverty. Apparently most of the loot is exchanged for vital things like water, food and medicines which are trading at manytimes more than their usual value.
Anarchism is a western (white) phenomenon and it is a useless excercise to look for an equivalent in the rest of the planet.
The affluent west has to go and so anarchism if successful will determine its own demise.
The dioits who are trying to scrounge careers longterm theories out of anarchism are piggy scroungers.
ram
racism???
18.04.2003 13:13
hj
Re: Racism
18.04.2003 13:53
When I simply wrote 'Iraqis are not white', I thought it is clear that the comforts of affluence that prevents any thoughts of looting even remotely appearing for the white kid/old anarchist in an affluent western street is the key difference.
I clearly say white again as this is to be contrasted against a riot in lets say...downtown Los Angeles. Looting will happen there however great the ideals of the initial protests that would have led to a riot might be ...as soon as the control of the aggressors is gone in any poor neighbourhood.
Put another way affluence goes hand in and with whites.
Also note I am not saying that looting is neccesarily bad.
Just that it is inappropriate to break ones head over pigmedia's ignorant views on looting by trying to justify anarchism weighed against such a non issue.
Chill. Not everything I post has an accusation of racism.
ram
Pre-emptive strike
18.04.2003 14:09
> Every struggle and revolution has seen
anarchist ideas and practices develop spontaneously as
people draw the obvious conclusions from their own
experience
then the author 'Anarcho' goes onto list French, Rusian and Spanish revolutions!!
Get it? White!
Also they are bloody failures. Russians, French and the Spanish are predominantly whirte supremacists living by/off bullying others. The revolutions (if they really happened) never took hold.
Contrast this with the Islamic revolution of Iran that shook the foundations of the west's wrong policies on middle east and brought about a stooge like Saddam...even continues to do so now?
What about Gandhis peaceful revolution?
What about Nelson Mandela?
Chairman Mao?
Many more were squashed/sabotaged by the west but the above are some *lasting* examples of revolutions with *central* ideology (Also non white affairs). They brought about clear benefits to vast numbers of people. Anarchism is a child of the west and will do much better if it were to humbly learn from these experiences and be a bit more ope to criticsm.
Whites have never had a revolution.
Hey you forgot the American revolution with GEorge Washington and all!!
ram
hmm
18.04.2003 14:47
hj
French, Spanish and Russian white supremacy
18.04.2003 18:57
White supremacy is simply the pigs who have traditionally failed to recognise the rest of the planet as humans until the second White War that ended in 1945?
They redrew their lines of control and modes of operations after this war. Some colonies took a bit more time. Like most African states.
Take this example and you will understand. The Nazis Germany as much as the Conservatives of Britain are not all the people of those countries but these countries rallied behind these ideas/parties and fought out a bloody war among themselves. After readjusting (honestly I do not want to know detailed history of who killed who and where.... all I know is this did the world a lot of good) their stances look at them they together again.
G8, EU (going to be 25 members now ...Turkey still out!!), NATO, ex Warsaw-Pact, ANZUS, FATT, mumbo jumbo...
This is what is western supremacy not what pigmedia distracts you with.
Again ..all those who suffer are exclusively non white.
ram
Stalinist-Maoist?
18.04.2003 19:10
I suggest you read up who and what 'Chou En Lai' is all about?
The racism shown towards Chinese success in Moscow almost flared up in a war in Mongolia is something to look for.
What is bringing about material improovement to China?
The Chinese against all odds are feeding themselves, have existed outside the international monetary bullshit, are free to improove their state of affairs (infact are a sane voice at times where even in braindead west things are dawning on people) and are constantly improoving against massive outside pressure....for sucks sake are they wrongto have not come out of the state of military preparedness against US aggression that you are only now waking upto?
They *still* have mistakes and problems but are largely progressive.
Contarst this with white Russia which butchers Chechnians and is a capitalist whore... A G8 thug for fucks sake..
ram
???
18.04.2003 19:43
hj
China Africa pigmedia.....
18.04.2003 20:56
No. Mao was Maoist if you need to catergorise him.
He was communist. He was revolutionist. He pushed out the Japaneese imperialists and held the British pigs at bay. Chou En Lai influenced him more than Stalin.
But note that not even the fanatic scholars coin words here.
So I suggest you do not coin words at random.
Waht Chairman Mao did or achieved is distinctly different from the Stalinist russian experience.
> I think you're overestimating the goodness of China. I don't see how you can describe them as 'progressive'.
I am sorry but I must point out this is inherent racism. I take it that you are not Chinese.
Contrast the progressive Chinese republic born in 1950 with all the odds stacked against it the degenerative USA and you will understand.
The settlers killed off the natives then enslaved the negroids and what I wonder what they are upto now.
The chinese had Cultural revolution against which Tianamen squares' unfortuante events area a joke.
Goto China and you will see that Mao is not a big hero as you might have been led to believe for the cultural Revolution mess.
It is not what the queen's propaganda machine preaches you know.
Yes there are capitalsit market elements in China but do you realise what Tianamen square protest was all about?
You seem like criticising them either way...ask yourself this...
you are a racist inside when repeating common western accusations on *even* on China?
Also note that you have ommitted the other constant rant about Tibet here. Wonder whether it is a sign of the times?
Chinese are people just like you. They were ones shipped Opium to fuck them up. Now there are other methods to fuck them up. Racism has been a common factor then and now.
One main difference I see is that among protesors there is conviction in China for their cause like what overtook the capitalsits at Tianamen protestors. They stood their ground unlike the Mayday 'rioter's' who are all expert sprinters.
Try standing your ground oneday and you will see. Now there si the stun gun you know..
> Its a dicatorship and all other parties are banned.
Well refer to the vote for war this time.
Again, the Chinese are truthful.
What is better a truthful government or a deceitful cartel of odd characters from paedophiles to armsdealers.
> Remember Tinamen square? Its also much more market now,
Again understand what the protestors were on about.
> TONNES of Chienese workers have lost their jobs.
Oh shit! we do care now, do we?
> under constant surveillance and so on
Hmmm there is pig who now knows me by name and calls me before taking that photo everytime I go to protest.
I am beggining to think he fancies me.
Again I would prefer a truthful government than a lying bunch of baby killers.
Also if China was aggressive like us with a huge WMD arsenal and actively sponsoring you, me and more what do you think all the pigs will do?
> Why do you throw around such random accusations like calling this 'pigmedia'??
I am sorry pigmedia rhymes with Indymedia. I meant the BBC, CNN, etc.. did not even think of IMC or especially IMC-UK ...these are atbest talkshops at the moment and potentially very useful media outlets.
(But I despise the IMC-UK censor who keeps removing my posts without explanations though.)
> All those that suffer are not exclusively non-white.
What?! Are you aware that a lot of people have put a lot of thought into this. Maybe you are getting confused here. I do not deny that there few negligible non whites suffering.
Maybe with Argentina's plight the first significant white nation is learning how it is to have you intestine's eaten away by your own gastric juices. But I do nto think they have still reached the state of seeing their children die of it. Sad but I have to make my point in the good hope one more will see what I have seen.
> Are all the Africa regimes living in poverty? Nope, they live lives of luxury.
For you a regime is a number like a pack of cards I suppose -- when it is a non white country.
Whereas every mortgage holder remains to be part of the regime in the UK!!
Did you know that in the US it si every motor vehicle driver.
ram
...
18.04.2003 22:06
He was communist. He was revolutionist. He pushed out the Japaneese imperialists and held the British pigs at bay. Chou En Lai influenced him more than Stalin.
I don't know who Chou En Lai is. I know he stopped the Japanese, didn't know about stopping the British??
>So I suggest you do not coin words at random.
I said Stalinist-Maoist because it would sound stupid calling Mao a Maoist and wouldn't mean much, and the Communist Party was stalinist.
>Waht Chairman Mao did or achieved is distinctly different from the Stalinist russian experience.
I know...
>I am sorry but I must point out this is inherent racism. I take it that you are not Chinese.
Why do you keep accusing me of racism?? Maybe, in contrast with all the other regimes, you could describe Mao's China as progressive.
>Contrast the progressive Chinese republic born in 1950 with all the odds stacked against it the degenerative USA and you will understand.
It was proclaimed in 1949 wasnt it?
>Yes there are capitalsit market elements in China but do you realise what Tianamen square protest was all about?
Greater democracy?
>Also note that you have ommitted the other constant rant about Tibet here. Wonder whether it is a sign of the times?
I don't even know about Tibet. Was that where the US-supported dictatorship was that they claimed was the true government of China?
>Chinese are people just like you. They were ones shipped Opium to fuck them up.
I'm not saying they aren't, and I know about the opium thing, just because I'm British doesn't mean I agree with that does it.
>One main difference I see is that among protesors there is conviction in China for their cause like what overtook the capitalsits at Tianamen protestors. They stood their ground unlike the Mayday 'rioter's' who are all expert sprinters.
I don't even know what you're accusing me of there, I'm not a Mayday 'rioter'.
>Well refer to the vote for war this time.
There's a difference between somewhere like Britain and China. I don't go on about the virtues of 'democracy' or anything, but here we do have freedom to think for ourselves, although we're flooded with propaganda, schooling, etc. But if we want to we can read alternative stuff and so on and have more freedom. In China they have secret police and so on. You're also ignoring all the labour camps that housed millions.
>Again, the Chinese are truthful.
What is better a truthful government or a deceitful cartel of odd characters from paedophiles to armsdealers.
I don't particularly want either and I don't want to compare the two, but the good thing about places like Britain is that there is 'freedom of thought', although again thats another phrase I've invented. And I don't think they exactly are truthful anyway, they probably still go on about socialist democracy and things like that.
>Oh shit! we do care now, do we?
I don't understand why your attitude to me is so accusing.
>For you a regime is a number like a pack of cards I suppose -- when it is a non white country.
Whereas every mortgage holder remains to be part of the regime in the UK!!
Did you know that in the US it si every motor vehicle driver.
?? I don't understand that really.
I don't understand why you are so accusing and keep accusing me, and everyone, of being racist. I don't deny that Mao probably achieved a lot in China, but I don't really see what point it is you're trying to make?
hj
e-mail: leavethemonkeyalone@hotmail.com
Racsit britain
18.04.2003 23:14
The millions in labour camp is what the cultural revolution and its aftermath was all about. They are bad old days.
With a public humiliation of Margrat Thatcher in Beijing Hong Kong and the last British official meddling in Chinese affairs thankfuly came to an end.
Freedom of thought is not banned in China. I do not think that is what you wanted imply anyway. It is putting these thoughts into actions that matters.
I could wish/fantasize that I want to shag the queen but I cannot do that can I?
likewise in China there are few things one cannot do. Infact many things one could not do is progressively decreasing.
What was happeing in Tianamen squ. was a call for US style democracy to be ushered into Chinese soceity mostly by University students. The statue of liberty was the symbol of the protesors! How wrong could have one been?
The western media wanted to make a scene out of it. The Chinese government brutally wanted a teach a lesson to any future threatening dissent.
In the case of Falun Gong you will find lots of western propaganda referign to labour camps instead of prisons.
Increasingly more things were/are straight forward and clear with China.
If the people of China diaprooved of it there would be a mass uprising over in China than in the west.
The only dubious things are/were accusations of CIA influence behind the protests and the protest leaders being accomodated in the west but ordinary Chinese who followed them being persecuted for being refugees.
The Chinese come out as straight talking honest people. The west comes out as a double talking devious crooked racist set of loosers.
They are the sanest voice in the UN security council in recent times. With the upcoming unfortunate situation of North Korea we will get to know the real China much better I hope.
Sorry I do not wish to continue the China related arguments any further as it is looking like a constant preaching from myside.
Tibet, Taiwan and Chou En Lai's thinking are few things one should lookup if one needs to understand modern Chinese impact on world politics.
Bear in mind one in five human being is from the peoples republic of China and respect them as equal human beings.
I never meant to sugges that you were a Mayday rioter. If I did I am sorry. Instead what I was trying to compare was the issue of protestations being turned into a riot/Tianamen style resistance by the authorities.
In China they stood their ground and shit happened.
All I am saying is that it is easily recreated in Trafalgar square or Times square if the white protesors were also protesting due to their convictions.
Maybe I am catergorising you as a protestor against the authoratative state. I obviously accuse the vast majority of white protestors of being lost idiots who sometimes do not even realsie why they are there in the first place.
So I think the only thing left is to (attempt to) justify my accusation of the british soceity as steeped in racism.
May are well aware of many facets of british racist soceity. The racist pigs in the police and army are official facts. The other establishments being institionally racist is well known and widely accepted. It si part of the british culture.
What is confusing you I guess, is me accusing the protestors of a country mirroring the racist nature of their culture.
Am I right?
ram
Definitions
18.04.2003 23:57
Ahem...
Thanks Ahem
19.04.2003 00:25
The pigmedia (ie, BBC, CNN and alike...) are made of pig reporters. These pigs used the word anarchy and in the absence of any piggy comments we are largely in agreement and have given up arguing the obvious which you rightly point out.
ram