PROPAGANDA
I watch this whole thing unfold on TV, it amazing 200 people (mainly US forcses and jornalists) pulled down this statue in the middle of these diserted streets and they compare it to Berlin wall coming. Crap!

US MARINE WA*KERS GO HOME
Just before reaching the stetue sky newses roving reporter film these 2 iraqi's with banner reading Go Home US Marine Wankers. Reminded me of the mixed, if not completly negative response from Iraqi's all over Iraq.

F15
If 200 people can implement regine change, think whatwe can do with " million.

I have posted a clearet copy of the blurred long shot of the square where Saddam's statue was toppled yesterday. I ran it through Photoshop to sharpen and uses auto-levels to make the contarts and brightness levels better.

Here is a sharpened image of the long shot of Fardus Square:

 http://uk.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=62845&group=webcast

I ran this Reauters photo through Photoshop to sharpen it and correct the brightness and contrast in order to make it clearer.

I had a BBC webcam open all day yesterday this is what I saw:

In the morning, the area looked like a fairly normal roundabout with cars going round and people walking round in a leisurely way.

Early afternoon; all of a sudden there is a crowd running through the square apparently away feom something which soon turns out to be US troops in tanks who surround the square. I cant quite make out if there was some shooting at this point, it looked like it, non was reported, but of course that means nothing.

For a while noone enters the square tho there is a number of civilians in the surrounding streets. Suddenly there seem to be a few civilians in the square and they start attacking the statue, it is not long before two are up on the statue hanging a noose round its neck. This continues for quite some time getting nowhere, similarly a sledgehammer fails to do much. By this point there looks to be 50-100 people (i wish i had recorded to footage). The US vehicle finally drives up to the statue, it is slowly attached to the rope and a few more people join the crowd, maybe another hundred or so, ceartainly no huge crowd, they occupied a small section of the roundabout, which in its entirety could probably hold several thousand.

They placed an American flag on it, I didn't see too much jubilation at this particular, insensitive move, and I have noticed a huge gap between arab and western press on reporting this moment. The jubilation I did see was for the old Iraqi flag that was then produced and the statues distruction.

It is interesting that this all occured outside the Palestine Hotel, but rather that a conspiracy, I think this was prolly lazy journalism.

If you lived under Saddam Hussein you would be celebrating this too, weather you wanted the US there or not. Anything must be better than what was. Stop being so damn cynical, the joy and relief on those people was real. Something good happened in the news yesterday, the only good thing that has happened in 3 weeks. And yes, I do realise some people weren't so happy, but the Shia's certainly were, this remains to be seen in the coming months though.

No I didn't and still don't support this war, but the sooner we accept the toppling of Saddam was a good thing the better. Deal with it.

I simply don't believe all of the cheering crowds were faked. I'm pleased to see the back of the Ba'ath regime and I suspect many or most Iraqis are too.

Still I think the invasion was wrong, and I worry for the future of Iraq and the world. I suspect many or most Iraqis would agree with that too.

Dave completely misses the point which is the question of Iraqi self determination. Replacing the brutal Saddam regime with an American colonial stooge is hardly 'something good' is it? Come on--get real.

Is Bosnia a democracy today? Hardly. It is run by a Western-appointed, unelected, governor--a failed British politician and former Special Forces thug--Paddy Ashdown (remember him?). He couldn't get elected to office here, but he is now running Bosnia like a tin-pot despot.

Afghanistam is run by a US puppet in Kabul and warlords everywhere else. Women are still subjected to religious bigotry and oppression. There is no sign of any democracy on the horizon.

Both of these nations are now effectively colonies of the US and Western Europe. The same will now happen in Iraq--followed possibly by Syria and Iran. That is not 'something good'. It is a disaster for the Iraqis and the Middle East. Why do you think that Arabs all over the Middle East were reported yesterday to be turning off the TV because they couldn't bear to watch the so-called 'toppling' of the regime by the US? See today's Guardian and Independent. It was because they knew it was the US that was doing it not the Iraqis. They saw it as a defeat--which it isn't yet--the resistance continues.

Iraqis removing Saddam THEMSELVES to replace him with a Iraqi regime that is democratic and accountable would be one thing--that WOULD be a "good thing". But imperialism and its local hangers-on removing him to replace him with a US colonial stooge is nothing of the sort--and it is completely ridiculous to say so.

The task of overthrowing Saddam is for the Iraqi people themselves with the solidarity and support of the global anti-war movement NOT the hypocritical US and UK warmongers. The only thing the US and UK can usefully do is to get out of Iraq, cancel the debt, and pay reparations. But with Bush and Blair in office there is no chance of that happening.

Conclusion: build a massive, credible political opposition to New Labour and the US Republicans/Democrats. This can only be done by maximising the co-operation of the whole of the left, the anti-racist movement, the women's movement, lesbian and gay movement and the anti-war movement. The World Social Forum might be means of doing this, but it needs to be build locally.

US and UK troops out of Iraq now!

Reparations for Iraq!

Establish branches of the World Social Forum in every region and city NOW!

"Anyone" mentions Sky roving reporter footage of two iraqis with a banner saying "US marine wankers go home". On British TV news I saw two Iraqis walking around with a banner which said "Human Shields go home now, U.S. wankers", at least that is what I could make out. Is this the same or a different sighting? Can "anyone" or anyone else who see either footage help clarify this?

Mutleys propaganda would make stalin proud.
Let's dismantle your points one by one shall we?
First of all, afghanistan and bosnia are not colonies. Colonies in the past were stripped of their natural resources and slave labour of their people, neither of which is true in either country. If anything we've poured billions of dollars and lives into those hell holes while trying to find small groups of people who like to blow themselves up. Bosnia? roughly the same story. It's being baby sat like afganistan because civil society had broken down and brutal local police forces and paramilitaries ran things. Maybe you're crying for the fall of the taliban and milosivic but not me. And I'd bet not the people they crushed under those brands of ideology.
But here's the funniest part of your post-

"The task of overthrowing Saddam is for the Iraqi people themselves with the solidarity and support of the global anti-war movement NOT the hypocritical .."

The global anti war movement did NOTHING to help the Iraqi people overthrow an autocratic dictator. Not a fucking thing. If anything the "global" anti-war students prolonged Saddams rule by their actions. How many sign did I see at anti war rallies that said hands off Iraq? Tons. I have yet to see anything, ANYTHING from the global anti whatever about doing anything to start a positive change in any autocratic regime. And if you're looking to start, look no further than the purge of human rights workers in cuba. Although I'm not holding my breath.

Brian, the anti-war movement wanted Saddam to go, but with peaceful means, the lifting of sanctions to give the Iraqi people more strength and loosen Saddam's grip, and other creative ways you can get rid of a dictator. If you want to overthrow a tyrant from within (which is possible, see Romania, 1989, as one example) you don't aide them by placing sanctions, then dropping bombs, on the people you are supposed to be helping.

Mutley, my point was the Baath regime going is a good thing, I can't imagine any regime being much worse. Surely you can't disagree with this? The main reason I am against this war is because innocent people died for other people's business interests with the weapons of mass destruction as a smokescreen. I don't think there will be true 'democracy' in Iraq, but whatever it is I doubt it will be on a par with the Baath regime in terms of the terrible ways it operated. So it's ok to bomb a country to give them a government that's a slight improvement on the last one? Of course not, that's not what I'm saying. The thing is, we don't know what is going to happen yet, so we have to keep our cynical eyes open to try and make sure the Iraqi's get what was promised to them. There was relief and joy in Baghdad yesterday, the toppling of Saddam is something that should hearten all of us, while remembering the dead and injured, with thoughts on the future.

Let us open our eyes, and really see what there is to see.

With the coming down of the Berlin Wall; or at Tianamen Square; or even at the Oaklahoma Bombing scenario we were all witness to photographs depicting the current state of social unrest and/or change. The photo's had 'action' in them that literally lept off the front pages of the tabloids and cracked your skull, so to speak.

This is definately not the case in Iraq, peoples !
Look at the carefully assembled onlookers, as the statue of an evil dictator is torn from it's tyrannical pearch.
They are neither eleated, nor grieved. This photo lacks just that particular 'spark' in peoples stance and interaction with eachother that was oh so obvious during the events abovementioned.

Are we seriously going to let another Pentagon orchestrated thought manipulation tactic to yet again shape what we all think?

This is bullshit !

The war is bullshit !

Aldous Huxley was right : "...oh, poor brave new world..."

This War is unjust. Saddam is unjust. The Baath regime is an elitist club.You will have 500k US troops in Iraq next week. Solution ? I am willing to give Bush/Blair the benefit of the doubt and hope that they go give Iraq and the Middle East democracy. Why ? Because if you " Liberate " and make the Middle East a safe place AND find a solution to the Palestinian problem then indirectly you will margenalize Israel. The Neo-Cons have dropped a bomb on to themselves. They will get more than they bargained for. Welcome to the 21st century. Dave, I agree with your thoughts. Well done.

Saddam has gone. That is undeniably positive. Whilst I have always opposed this war, those Iraqis who welcome US troops are more qualified than I to credit or discredit their actions.

Yet the felling of Saddam's statue is but one tiny snap-shot from a whirlwind of chaos. We must not forget that the US and UK governments have acted with shameful irresponsibility by waging war on Iraq with no solid humanitarian contingency. Water supplies have been disrupted and food reserves are limited. Telephone systems have been destroyed. Hospitals are overflowing with thousands of severely injured civilians - and US forces have broken the third Geneva convention by failing to protect those hospitals and their patients.

Then there are the delayed, long-term effects of the unexploded cluster-bomb bomblets which now lie dormant in the Iraqi landscape - 4000 civilians have been killed or maimed by such ordnance since the last Gulf War. And worse still is the insidious residue of Depleted Uranium which can increase cancer levels nine-fold.

The destruction of civilian infrastructure and the use of legally questionable weaponry is as much a violation of personal freedom as dictatorship. Neo-conservatives will undoubtedly say that to 'make an omelette you have to break a few eggs.' But what if one of those eggs happens to be you or someone you love?

We should all consider these facts before becoming carried away by highly selective and partially orchestrated scenes of 100 people dancing around a fallen statue.

Tom

If you think that the US is doing the media circus alone, just take a look back at the Iraqi TV showing almost exclusively pictures of the wounded, in hospitals, and them carrying out dead and wounded people from the bombed buildings. They never show any of the atrocities that they performed on theircitizens and on whoever would be against their political views. It is always the color of the lense we have in front of our eyes that tints the way we see the world, and makes us think we own the truth.

Let's get this straight and this is to any US citizens that get their hackles raised when we out here seemingly oppose what is going on here and put forward a few possible agendas...

As I understand it, no right minded person is saying that the Iraqi regime didn't need doing something about. BUT, and this is a BIG but, there are ways of doing things. It is seemingly 'okay' for Saddam Hussein to be personally targeted with a bomb being dropped on his head or sticking a rocket launched grenade up his ass during this conflict (or after) BUT stretch this any which way you want, this is assasination and that is NOT the way the west likes things to be done if it was to happen the other way around.

Capture him, send him to a war tribunial, whatever. That is the way we supposedly tell the rest of the worlkd we like these things dealt with so if you can't see why this is seen as VERY dubious and hipocritical to people outside your 'regime' then I'd pour a coffee and have a good sit down and think about it because it just plain is.

War tribunials may be a joke, the UN may be a joke, etc, etc but these are the frameworks that were set up AND AGREED UPON to deal with such matters and to just decide that the way YOU want things dealt with and bollocks to what the rest of the world thinks is beyond arrogance, trust me it really is and there is no question.

You make rules and you either abide by them or don't be surprised when people point a few fingers when you just up and bend them to suit.

The fall oif this regime will ultimately be a good thing for the Iraqi people and they will hopefully gain from this horrendous conflict, and the horror that goes with it, but others will gain as well and when they do it by saying "screw you, we're doing it our way whatever anyone else wants" it doesn't sit easy with the idea of an alternative regime that spouts the words "democracy", "freedom" and "justice" with the proviso of "we decide what any one of those words mean at any one time and you can stick all other world views up your asses 'cos we are the boss and can ignore any treaties/unions/coallitions we signed up to in the past".

Who says Paddy Ashdown is a "failed politician"? He was a strong leader of the liberal movement in the UK during a time when, more than ever, only two parties were considered serious candidates for power. If everyone who thought like Ashdown had voted like Ashdown, he would be in Downing Street right now!

As an American, I find it sad to admit that what I once felt as pride for my country is now nothing short of shame. The "media" in our land is just a bunch of talking heads trying to convince us this "war" is readily justified and we are on the right side. The only liberating I see is of innocent lives and of oil. One comment I read was so telling. "..Seems strange the Iraq museums were looted and the Iraqi media hit by bombs...but the Ministry of Oil buildings were not touched and were guarded from the beginning...".
I have a heavy heart when I hear people...normally good, honest, God-loving people say.."Well, at least maybe the oil prices will go down..." What?!? Is the few cents you pay really worth the lives of innocent people??
The Bush Administration has done nothing it has set out to do. America invaded Afghanistan to get Bin Laden (remember him?)...failed. Now, it is liberating the people of Iraq and we are going to get Saddam....failed. Now, we are shouting the same threats to Syria and Iran and the list goes on and on. If this country really wants to promote freedom, they should worry about it more on our own soil.
Ask actor Tim Robbins, ask truth-in-taxation advocate Irwin Schiff about freedom. Read about the Patriot Act and the ramifications it has in store for us. It is getting scarcer and scarcer all the time.
I love America and what it once stood for. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I have a flag in my yard and respect those who have died adn fight everyday to protect it. Those ideals are looking pretty anorexic about now. The greed and lust for power by the ones in charge are leading this once great land into a dark time for the entire world.
Will we become what we once were? Or, was it all a dream? Time will tell. I only hope that trust and justice prevails. If we stay on the road we are on, this world will forever be scarred by the actions we do now.
God Bless AMerica....God Bless us all.