reading both rant and rant reply: some ideas issue forth.
the spaniard is an undercover instigator for:
Intelligence Blocking Machines that acts like an angler fish,flashing a little anger light to set off fish desperate to return moral fire[however reasonable and justified]
This blocks the intelligence of the replier as \she contends with the anger instigated by 'Il Nastio',who could very well be the replier anyway or voice versa
Conclusion: those who write that they wish people dead 'coz of their '@ present ' life situation seem unable to allow those people the possibility of change.
Starange for an Anarchist,as the I-dealology implies acknowledging the ever fucking changingness of fucking.So death to all you snivelly-sweet-lipped-Anarchopigs - praying for Copdeath,and don't think that lets off you blue-bank-run boys in blue who get surly reading Anarchy papers looking for the least xcuse to baton some cumbot trousered son of a well-known opus dei financier,yes it reambles but I'm bitching on a roll full of hate
W A I T
ON 25 MARCH....Letna Park,Praha...9.13am ...2003
A MARCH 4 NO REASON....all welcome but please leave your reasons in the space provided
To all who contributed to this letter,I love you
Stephen,Nastio,Nastio's Mum,replier to nastio,the Ricin boys,Ricinreal time Chemists,Porton Down lost property Dept.,
ERIS SONG

The tendency of some people on Indymedia to degenerate into rhetoric is unfortunate, but hardly an encourahing phenomenon. It is my hope that this does not represent people's real views, but is simply a symptom of spending too much time sitting in front of a computer and not enough actually thinking about stuff.

Of course the police exist to defend the ruling class, but they do also fill a role which would, to some extent, have to be filled in even an anarchist society. While the idea of police forces and even 'law' in the modern sense, nearly all human societies have some system of conflict resolution and anarchism could not possibly be any different. So get away from all the "Fuck the Police" crap and start working out how we are going to deal with the problems that neccesarily arise from human interaction.

On a not unrelated issue I wish to mention something someone pointed out to me yesterday. A policeman was run over in Bulwell in Nottingham last week (I think he was trying to stop someone, but I'm not sure). This did not get beyond the local press. When a policeman is stabbed during an "anti-terror" raid, this merits news flashes during the Bond film, extensive TV coverage (despite the fact there was very little to actually report), front page coverage and acres of column inches over the following days.

Is one policeman somehow worth more than the other? Or is this simply a further example of the media trying to scare us so that we support our Great Leaders in their valiant struggle against the forces of evil?

Whilst I do not delight in the death of anyone I think an important point as been missed in this debate about the death of PC Oake.Every year a number of policemen die on duty as do other workers such as those in the construction industry to take a good example.The deaths of construction workers however are invariably due to poor health and safety standards to maximise profits for the construction companies,these deaths however do not merit a mention by the media generally.In addition, the number of police officer deaths is far outstripped by the number of people who die whilst in police custody however the media,politicians and other commentators find it convenient to turn a blind eye to this fact,as usual their tears are selective.

I think that the previous post about cops still being
needed in an Anarchist society is ludicrous. Police
are there only because capitalist social relations
demand they be there for those relations to be
protected. A situation like what happened to the
pig Oake will not arise in an anarchist society as
there will not be any "asylum seekers" for said pig
and pigs to try and apprehend. Remember the
amount of deaths, over 1,000 in 30 years, that the
pigs are responsible for. The lack of confidence for
us not to start the discourse of creating an anarchist
society, and promote anarchist ideas like no police, no state, no capitalism, ideas which come from centuries
of experience would sadly mean mis-informed statements like you see above being a feature of
many peoples understanding.

You may not like other people's views, but you also have to admit there have been plenty of beatings meated out by the cops. There are plenty of cases where people have died in police custody, or in fact murdered - see the injustice film.

That's the reasons why so many people hate the police, oh and for the fact that as well as all stuff about tracing muggers and rapists, they also happen to act as political agents of the state and corporate world.

This really was not worth a new top newswire post in indymedia. People slag the police off and each other all the time. You should not pay so much attention to one individuals view point. Saying "What is indymedia coming to" is in fact a misleading comment.

Indeed I think this was posted by one of the people who have been spamming indymedia with racist bnp texts and pro police texts recently.

I may be wrong and the person may well be outraged, if that's the case, get over it and if you find it so offensive then simply take heart from the number of posters who are only ever into non violent fluffy action - there's plenty of those on indymedia, so don't lose heart in it - just realise that not all views posted on indy will be exactly the same as yours.

Of all the things that I doubt most at the moment the one I perceive the clearest is that I do NOT hate an individual cop. I even feel that I do NOT hate the police –as they in fact are primarily and foremost a body of many ones. I think nevertheless that an explanation is due most basically for you wellbeing of conscience and soul, rather than mine. I am the poster of such a comment refered above. My name is josé maría gil-cámara and I am a taxpayer. I put my name before to the police in the case they needed it –as if they needed such a gesture to know me! But there it goes as gesture of my contempt for their job.

That I should be fairminded is only an assumption of yours. That I should be progressive is another (whatever progressive may mean). That I am being extorted by the police out of my funds, exploited, is a reality. I do not deny the possibility of change to these individuals. It is not in my power –I doubt they wish it- and ultimately I am not a propagandist, nor a guru or anyone whatsoever with pretensions of convert partisans of one ideology to another.
The horrific relation of catastrophes that the police suppossedly spares us of is quite arbitrary: it may be my feeling that I wished such a catastrophe for myself and put an end by opposition to the continuous horrific life that they entitle me with: That’s my right to feel. It is my right to feel that anyone can feel glad at anything that may cause them pleasure. I must admit that it could have been badly expressed before, but it is not less certain that his death simply arouses in me a mixture of indiference on one side and also a belief that it was just for someone else fighting for something that maybe is closer to my interest than the interests of the police. My name is there. The police may as well come to get me and kill me. What the fuck could I care about it!
Redemption for them? Are you suggesting that they may change? Well… change! I do not deny them of such a decision. I did it myself for I have been a professional soldier in spain and served sometime in a humanitarian mission many years ago (my id is 45356M). his wife and sons, too, shall be well looked after (with my mony surely) by the state that drains my hated, forceful work, so I cannot feel any soory for them either. That is what enrages me: that I have to go through penury and misery for their wellbeing as if I was a farm pig of theirs, for them, and to them only.
The man was apparently a keen preacher and firm believer in god: do not feel any pity for them then, he must be in the place that corresponds him, be heaven or hell, but surely the one he longed for.

Peace be for you.

I didn't mean that an anarchist society would need a police force, though to be fair it did look like that was what I was trying to say. My point was much more nuanced than that.

Every human society I am aware of requires some kind of system to deal with conflict resolution and people breaching the rules (whether formal or informal) of that society. This is only dealt with by a "law and order" (police, courts, laws etc.) system in modern societies. There is no reason why this need continue in an anarchist society, but something will be required.

The typical response to this point from anarchists is that people in an anarchist society will not do bad things (or something to that effect). This is simply naive. Of course a less violent, more equal society will inevitably suffer less of the phenomenon known in societies such as our own as "crime", but it doesn't follow that it will be eliminated entirely.

The question is how we deal with these people. Clearly many of the issues currently dealt with in formal institutions could be handled just as well, and very likely with mutually more beneficial conclusions, through informal interactions between the affected parties. However this won't work in all circumstamces.

What happens if a member of an anarchist society kills another member? How would an anarchist society deal with paedophiles? I don't claim to have the answers, but I think it is important that we try and come up with them.

- . “If it wasn't for people like this cop who was murdered, we could be experiencing horrific terrorist outrages, we've seen what the extremists are capable of: Sept 11th, Tokyo nerve gas attack, Oklahoma bombing, racist nail bomb attacks”. I agree with someone’s comments about this poster being a saboteur or in my opinion, just someone that mey become drawn into thinking not merely differently, but thinking itself. To be sure we so far do not know who the responsible for the 9-11 attacks ultimately are; we really know what ideas derive in attacks like the oklahoma action –certainly not anarchists, but maybe sort of bushist like psychology, and so on for most of the examples that this person may, or could offer.

- . “why don't you take a look at yourselves and chuck these inhumane idiots who like to see people killed because of their job off the forum”. I personally look at myself quite deeply and get scared –I even scare you!- but I do not think I am more of an idiot than you, and let me point out if it needed that I wouldn’t be less fortunate if, with the cop, some of these obscurantist religiousminded people had died too. I am an european that is in the end conscious of some advances obtained through the centuries –much yet to do- in terms of mind liberation, and I shouldn’t feel comfortable in seeing a return to dark religious ages: one of the reasons why I do not demo against war while religious groups take part. I am very impartial in this regard. The most worthy of examples of that sort is when a cia agent (mike, a christian fundamentalist) was killed in afghanistan while interrogating in mazar e shareef: a fundamentalist kills another fundamentalist.



- . “There is no reason why this need continue in an anarchist society, but something will be required…

…What happens if a member of an anarchist society kills another member? How would an anarchist society deal with paedophiles? I don't claim to have the answers, but I think it is important that we try and come up with them”. The present situation is that the notion of security is hijacked. It is hijacked by those with the only possibility of “executing” justice –read vengeance. In one way we are not different of albanian clans where the injured has the right to take revenge on the family of the perjuror. In an anarchist society is likely that nobody should be regulated about his/her right to defend themselves and by their very own means. Weaponry would not be a right of only some but of all. And the security of my dependants would fall onto myself for as long as they weren’t able to defend themselves: police is not essential but for themselves. In what concerns to the subject of paedophilia. It is sad to see that this is an issue that can take so much relevance amongst suppossedly people who like you are believed to be thoughtful and intelligent open minded people. To begin with, you are confusing paedofilia with pederastia. The rape of a minor is no more serious than it is the rape of an adult. And the consensual sex of a minor and an adult shouldn’t be more of a crime as long as it keeps like that. Very possibly in an anarchist society where the current family relations are eroded, children themselves would tend instinctively, at their own call, to search for sexual initiation with the closest adults to them and who inspired them the most of trust and love; more or less as all of you have dreamt at early ages of your aunties and uncles.