go and make ur own website if u hate it so much fucking moron.

I agree with X. IndyMedia UK seems to be run by a bunch of censorious liberal (anarcho or otherwise) tossers. It has become virtually useless as to tool for the free exchange of news/information and ideas. Another case of Bakunin's "invisable dictatorship" in action! The pathetic respone above only confirms this.

If starting my own website is an alternative to using Indymedia in order to publish my comments on articles, then surely Indymedia's role as an open publishing medium has ended. Although I might have broken a law on incitement to violence, I have not broken the editorial guidelines. If Indymedia is so keen on enforcing the law, then what is the point of its existence?

Hello X and Anon. Firstly can you provide the title of the article you claim was hidden. As you will appreciate, it is impossible to look at every single article to find the one you are reffering to. Once the title is up it would make it easier to find out if, when and why it was deleted. Perhaps next time you can send an e-mail to IMC-contact and question what has happened rather than put a non news story in the newswire.

Secondly you suspect us as being police collaborators...? We have opne meetings for new people who are interested in becoming involved in the voluntary work we put in to keep this site running. Our minutes are posted onto the site and aspects that affect the site are posted openly onto lists to which you can subscribe.

There are racist postings that stay up sometimes but this is mainly because we sometimes miss them, othertimes because we delete them and they take a little while to disappear from the newswire. Tossers? Well opinions are like assholes everyone has one. We are accountable as described above and feel free to do what can do to provide help to the site. Some people point out racist postings and by and large these get removed.

The mainstream award was used to highlight the oppresion being used against people and alternative media around the world. It is after all the people who use this site that make it what it is...Please refer to  http://uk.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=42918.

Finally you harp on about another agenda, whilst simultaneously stating you may be a bit paranoid but...also saying I don't know who these people are. Have you tried to find out who we are, we have open meetings, we're at stacks of protests, sometimes with an Indymedia banner. Try to find out facts, because opinions alongside conjecture are what corporate/mainstream media does.

If you know anything about Indymedia around the world then you will know that posting comments that advocate such actions as those you advocate are one of the prime causes of police repression (as indeed in other countries have been race hate postings as several countries have much stronger laws in this area). Have you seen the shit coming down post sept 11th in terms of the net?

Indymedia is there to provide NEWS. You say you are starting your own website for discussing such things - great. That's the way it should be. Indymedia is not meant to be everything to everybody. You want to plan things and discuss ideas in depth, fine, set up your own website (as you say you will - cool) also set up your own discussion forums and / or mailing lists so that you can keep (safeguard / delete) your own IP logs. The web is just that - a web. That's how it works best. Don't centralise it too much.

Indymedia is also about championing new technology and the use of it for positive social purposes. The growth of such open posting systems and collaborative tools is a testament to this. There is life out there outside of indymedia. Indymedia should help spawn other initiatives, projects, websites etc if there are gaps, suggest ways new features can be added, or create your own.

Indymedia you may have noticed is for example not a very good medium to discuss issues through, due to the nature of the NEWSwire. Forums and mailing lists do this 100 times better - these are the tools that are best suited to such tasks, so use them. Why not suggest that Indymedia create proper discussion forums, or ask them to make a list of good forums that already exist and link to them?

You say that posts that are homophobic and rascist are left on the site, but the truth is if people know these posts exist they will be hidden. I agree these kind of postings are a problem, there has been a sustained campaign by a few individuals posting this sort of crap on a very regular basis. Users can help out by posting the details of such postings to Indymedia - either to the 'features' list ( http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-uk-features), or for privacy (so your mail is not publicly archived) to  imc-uk-contact@lists.indymedia.org If the 'torrent of racial abuse' you speak of is still visible in the newswire let them know). Maybe it should be suggested that this is documented somewhere prominent or in several places on the site (maybe on the upload form?). Also remember that Indymedia is run by volunteers, giving their time for free, not some 9-5 boss ruled money orientated company (it's a heck of a lot of work keeping a site like this up, just from the tech angle alone). It is if you like an experiment of collaborative media - there will always be disagreements of course but if people want to get involved they can. The monitoring of the newswire for rascist homophobic etc posts was for example done from the newly forming manchester indymedia group over the last week or so. It's not some sinister dark force theory here but people giving their time freely trying to run a popular alternative news website. If you for example look at Urban75.com it's run by a tiny number of people who will delete postings, kick people out of forums and ban IP addresses from posting (in some ways that can be seen as better, in other it's not) - Indymedia is a different concept, but one in constant development. Maybe another idea would be to have a public forum for people to suggest improvements to the site.

As to the idea that people working on indymedia are police collaborators that's laughable - for example on the contact page there's a link to epic.org recommending people read it to clue themselves up about privacy and security on the net and with email (btw IP logs are not kept). Plus discussions and work are archived publicly for the world to see. Also corporate media has given awards to other websites you know like McSpotlight, are they under the control of the cops too then? No of course not, but they also do not allow people to publish their own stories and to get involved in the running of the site - Indymedia does. And the award was given to the 'site' - a site which only exists because people use it, contribute to it and help run it.

Nobody said that this experiment in collaborative (consesus?) media is perfect. It cannot be all things to all people. Different Indymedia websites are very very different, there are now something like 90 of them! The Bristol site for example has been trying to keep their newswire related to bristol matters only. The open publishing system is very fragile in itself, again this is if you like an experiment. In germany for example the frontpage newswire only contains items that have been vetted first for rascist etc content since in germany any open system like that is often flooded with nazi material, but the posts are viewable before monitoring only one click from the frontpage. In a similar way on this site you can easlily go the page that tells you which postings have been hidden via the editorial guidelines page, which is a big step towards transparency.

Indymedia sites work best covering large scale mobilisations, that's what they were set up for. In terms of providing continuous news day in day out they are not so good, more development is needed, but it's still a very valuable resource and tool. Yes go create you own sites for strategy discussions, the more the better. Use Indymedia for what it's best at, news reporting.

Indeed tech developments should really improve the way Indymedia works. With categorisation of the uk site hopefully a few months away and the possibility to syndicate the content through xml / rss standards (ie automatically display the newswire posts on another site - yours? - you could even hand pick which ones to have) getting much closer (nb some sites have this already, but the uk one isn't quite working yet) the number of different possible implementations quickly expands - think about what that means for projects like this.

Your points are mainly addresses to X, whose comments I posted a brief response to.

Firstly, regarding my own experience of one particular censor at IMC UK, see:-

 http://uk.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=40266&group=webcast

In this case I found 'Ben' of IMC UK's comments very unconvincing. The original posting was concerning some relatively current news that had a bearing on a very big current news story. I think I know why the posting was pulled, but I'm certainly not convinced by Ben's comments given the massive amount of non-news, opinion, bullshit and fascist rantings that undoubtedly get posted on IMC UK without getting pulled.

When I stated that I agreed with X, I meant specifically that I think there is a problem of undue censorship of certain postings on IMC UK. I certainly don't think this explained by speculation about police agents.

Your points are mainly addresses to X, whose comments I posted a brief response to.

Firstly, regarding my own experience of one particular censor at IMC UK, see:-

 http://uk.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=40266&group=webcast

In this case I found 'Ben' of IMC UK's comments very unconvincing. The original posting was concerning some relatively current news that had a bearing on a very big current news story. I think I know why the posting was pulled, but I'm certainly not convinced by Ben's comments given the massive amount of non-news, opinion, bullshit and fascist rantings that undoubtedly get posted on IMC UK without getting pulled.

When I stated that I agreed with X, I meant specifically that I think there is a problem of undue censorship of certain postings on IMC UK. I certainly don't think this explained by speculation about police agents.

In response to X's comments, I must state my sympathies for this individual, however we must exercise wisdom when dealing with state laws, that arguably protects corporate power. The question is, should Indy Media risk shut down for a single individual, or should they preserve their site in the long term? X, I do agree with your point, that sometimes physical actions must be used to defend democracy, after all no emancipation was ever fought with diplomacy or peace. On the other hand however, we must support web sites like this that allow independent thought in a world where information is controlled.

Yes,Indy Media may have printed letters depicting racist or homophobic views, but it is the case that the authorities will act more on threats to state power, rather than personal hatreds against particular groups in society. I for one do not believe that individuals that hate a particular group should be suppressed vocally,or politically. If we really want to practice freedom of thought then all views, even ones we find contrary to our own should be aired. X, if you believe in action, then I suggest you attempt to start your own political party or pressure group, however expect to be attacked from the state, media, courts and parliament. It is from this viewpoint that I sympathise with your plight.

Thanks for the thoughtful contributions to my article and I am sorry if I have wrongly accused people of being state agents. However, I still believe that nobody should be forced into silence or self-censorship due to possible police intimidation. This is a dangerous path to follow, which has all too often undermine free and independent reporting. There are mainstream journalists in this country who have gone to jail to protect their source and to break the Official Secrets Act for the sake of public interest. Indymedia should take this as an example and apply free-thinking (not tolerance of racism and homophobia, but objective inquiry) to the newswire. Perhaps my article was taken off because it wasn't news, but I think that when it is hidden, the IMC volunteer responsible should give a reasoned explanation. Also, I note that a couple of my comments to articles have been deleted - I don't think I am alone in this. As comments are allowed to be rants, then I am puzzled that they have been deleted.

As to becoming involved in Indymedia, I am afraid I am wheelchair-bound and don't live in London. It's hard enough for me to make demonstrations, let alone regular editorial meetings. Mobility in London is hard enough with legs, let alone without!

 http://uk.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=43525&group=webcast

NB from imc volunteer re racism / homophobia
by dave 1:52pm Fri Oct 18 '02
 pnw@ziplip.com

Please note. there have been complaints about some of the above posts requesting they be hidden mailed to  imc-uk-contact@lists.indymedia.org since they are racist or homophobic

we have tried to hide them several times but something seems to be wrong with the database

we are looking into it, please bare with us, posts like these breach the guidelines of the site and should not be tolerated here on indymedia

if you see other such posts please report them to
 imc-uk-contact@lists.indymedia.org

thanks

Hi all. This is a query about why you appear to have removed all my posts.
I know Indy NL have been sued by Deutsche Bahn, but apprently this is a server physically outside of the NL, right? And hence what is posted here should not influence Indy NL folk?
This is even though some much older newsposts by Indy UK krewe seem to point 'right to the heart of the matter', ahem.

Anyways, it is easy to link to the article concerned by searching for the 'seven magic words', on Google, of all places, and as such Indy UK censoring ALL posts with the vaguest mention seems a bit strange.
Two recent posts are my own of this morning, and one from Millenium Leiah that keeps cropping up 'no story to show'.

Anyway see you folk tomorrow where some explaining should be done, I hope!
Keep Cool ;-) Roger

isnt telling some one to fuck off OFFENSIVE ?
surely if this guy has some axe to grind with IMC he has the right to whinge on line with out being told to fuck off !
you indymedia guys have put your side of the argument and
thats fine, why not pull the fuck off comment and try to encourage people to be civil to one another ..

being someone whose contributions have been much hidden by the collective, I tend to sympathise with anybody who feels their heartfelt commitments to a cause have been unnecessarily deleted. However, though sometimes I think I'd like to put a bomb under our Masters deliberate attempts to fuck up our world and the people with an absolute deliberation in their agenda-driven search for absolute power with the mass herd's consent, in the end people worldwide have just got to wake up and see what's going on. In a world of full-on Hegelian dialectics - problem-reaction-solution - the best thing dissenters can do is leave violence and destruction to the agents of the state - as most of the major acts in recent time are, with media propaganda posing deceptive interpretations
Any violence or destruction, however justifiable, merely supports the designs of the New World Order
What we should be about is waking people up. They are ready and up for it in my experience. You merely have to explain why they have been deceived with state-sponsered atrocity and how they've been lied to. All but the most bigoted and
possessed can start to get a glimmer of illumination
Of course, you need to reject the world mindset and deception perpetrated daily, to be able to argue the message

As I understand it, there ia a need for debate on the issue of cenorship and after a shakey start, this has been part of it. The Indymedia website is not to be taken for granted, but to be enjoyed as a tool of expression. There will be always faults with it for many reasons such as; it's maintained by volunteers who do it in their spare time; It is a site which alows anyone to post (difficulty with racist postings); Made by the public, who all have their own idea on what it should be.

This latter point is what I would like to talk about. The site is about a news forum, provided by the public who supply the news by Doing It Yourself. Being disabled also needn't be a hinderance, as you can involve yourself by entering the lists. Disagree or want to create something for the site, then put the ideas forward and be prepared to carry them out yourself. Pastine page, Irag page, Hackney page, Middle column, deleting racist postings, outreach, and everything on the site...were created by individuals who felt passionate and wanted to create something. Time to consider these aspects before people come onto the site throwing accusations about. Co-operation not confrontation!

Saying that IMC UK is a bunch of cops is ridiculous. Many of them have suffered great violence at the hands of the police (e.g. in Genoa) and get harassed by the state.

As for the "allowing racist posts" charge, you should read through the archive list at:
 http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-uk-features/
to see how much time & effort they spend to keep the crap out. If you see a racist post or whatever and do nothing about it, YOU are responsbile too, no? It is made up of volunteers. What have you done to help?

You say: "Last week I posted an article on using organised revolutionary tactics by anarchists, instead of tit-for-tat violence against the police and shop windows on demonstrations" Great. Is this news? Also, you get to post anonymously. The people running the site can't hide like you.

You say: "Indymedia's priority is to shut down any call for revolutionary action, while allowing the publication of fascist viewpoints."
As for something staying for up for longer or something disappearing quickly, it has more to do with the timing of when people actually look at posts than what is posted. Things aren't monitored 24/7. Some posts get seen right away, some don't. Some get missed. Volunteers, remember? Volunteers constantly being second-guessed by people calling for action, but not /doing/ action. Also, some random post calling for "revolutionary action" is hardly revolutionary. It's not going to have any impact. If you want revolution, think in more revolutionary ways. An Internet posting calling for arson isn't going to do it... :)

Again, you: "I think there is something sinister about IMC UK, an editorial collective that no-one can bring to account" Umm? How do you plan to bring them to account? What do you propose? IMC is about as transparent as it gets. If you know of a more transparent organization anywhere near the size of IMC, I would be interested to hear about it. See  http://lists.indymedia.org for more mail than you can read. It's public and has been (as far as I know) since day one.

As for IPs: IMC doesn't record IPs, but they certainly can't guarantee that someone in the middle isn't watching. Learn about anonymous surfing apps/proxies if you don't want the cops to know what you're reading.

But to your point about censorsip, I do think that a few too many things are being censored. But who the hell I am to bitch about it unless I take responsbility for the posts? Think about the position your posts leave IMC in. Again, you can be anonymous and hide, they can't.

As for posts that do get censored, I think it would be cool if the censor would attach a comment to the post saying why the post was nixed. Also, I believe there was once a link on the front page to a trash bin or something that had the censored articles. I'm not sure where it is now. Even the word "censor" is a bit misleading, as the articles are only hidden.

Also the "no story yet to tell" (or somesuch) isn't due to a story being censored. It is due to a tech problem on the site. It annoys all the IMC when it happens. The bug doesn't give a very good explanation of the error and is somewhat misleading. It isn't a censor though. :)

Now that I've written all this, I wonder why I just spent so much time responding to a troll instead of doing something productive. Thanks for your contribution....

I am totally against censorship, but putting calls for direct action on the site is a stupid and naive thing to do.

Posting calls for direct action is probably incitement, and you should have no doubt at all that these laws will be used against IMC, as with the Gandalf case against Green Anarchist back in 1997.

Posting factual information is legal.

Posting your opinion is also legal.

People need to be aware of the incitement legal problem. If the IMC operator people allow these types of comments on the site, they will also be prosecuted for conspiracy. People have to be wise to these points. These are very difficult and dangerous times we are living in, folks. So be careful.

Incitement laws have been used against SHAC, the anti Huntingdon Life Sciences vivisection laboratory campaign, just recently four more of them were arrested. This is a real problem. Wake up.

I am so fed up with these censorship threeads and moans by people about the IMC-UK editorial collective.
It's quite obvious that Indymedia can't please everyone I should thing that the people going to the trouble to post racist articles are pretty pissed off that their stuff is frequently hidden, just like those people that post what others might consider as conspritorial rants would also be pissed off when their stuff is removed for being non news.

I personally have been critised for being over zealous on hiding non news items. I joined the 'editorial' team because I was fed up with the majority of the newswire being full of shit and wanted indymedia to live up to it's potential. I've since pretty much given up - at least until the editorial guidelines are modified to reflect the requirement that posts to the newswire be NEWS.
Perhaps also the techies can provide an area for opinion etc..

In the meantime, stop fucking whinging! if you want Indymedia to improve then help out!!! THIS IS DIY!!!