Parliamentary democracy or muslim state with sharia law???
by MJP 11:04am Sun Aug 11 '02 (Modified on 3:00pm Sun Aug 11 '02)
 mjpann@essex.ac.uk

- are we too tolerant??

 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-380599,00.html

The sunday times article regarding DAC Blairs proposed changes to uniform and warrant cards. To remove the cross of St Edward.

my opinion is that newcomers to our country must recognise that we native Britons have our own ancient traditions and it is they who must adapt accordingly. We should let anyone that meets the requirements of citizenship and medical and security + apptitude to train to be a police officer police, but they should be expected to fit into the force, not change it to fit around them.
I’m an atheist, but at the same time I don’t go about demanding religious symbolism be removed from items I use.

How long before universities are made to remove their armorial bearings/coats of arms that feature crosses or symbols of religion or crown?

If we’re not carefull we’ll end up like the US where a local mayor was formerly reprimanded for saying ‘ thank god we got to them in time and they’re all well’ with regards to the recent case of miners trapped in a collapsed mine.

The way this country is going...

quite a lot of reading and links but it demonstrates the problem, that we have allowed an insidious element of fundamentalists and extremists to operate unchecked and spreading their dangerous views within our society.

I am beginning to wonder more and more whether this is a parliamentary democracy with a
constitutional monarchy or a islamic state applying the law of Sharia. Especially with regards to the british government continuing to turn a blind eye to certain 'extremist' elements within the muslim community's in this country advocating violence and recruiting 'soldiers' for jihads abroad. I've been following this closely recently and it seems that the suspected fund raisers and financial contributers to al qaeda in this country are not being extradited to the US, but are just being released by our over liberal law lords.

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2159799.stm +  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2161710.stm

As far as i am concerned these people are 'enemy combatants' as bush calls them, and therefor they shouldnt be treated with the same level of 'burden of proof' as a citizen but subjected to military law as POW's.

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2113340.stm - should have just arrested him for s5 public order or under the prevention of terrorism act and hoped the home office would then allow the US to extradite him from our custody to theirs. but NO. We're pandering to these extremists.

We should stamp down fast and hard on these extremists.
 http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,739813,00.html

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/england/1833107.stm - my bets are this is going to go ' not guilty' or at least not guilty on appeal. Which is disgusting.

add your own comments



Error
by MJP 11:14am Sun Aug 11 '02
 mjpann@essex.ac.uk


Ian Blair is now deputy commissioner of the Metropolitan police not DAC as i erroneously stated in my initial post.


You're full of shit, kid
by lenin 11:30am Sun Aug 11 '02



I daresay you could be one of the regular flamers we get on this board. If not, I think you're a reactionary piece of shit. The idea that this country is run according to Shariah can be disproved with one question - has anyone ever forced you to read the Koran? This would surely be a minimal requirement for any Islamist state.

As for "turning a blind eye to extremist elements in the Muslim community", what extremist elements? When have they ever engaged in anything other than lawful activity? And, how many of those interned under anti-terror legislation would you guess are Muslim.

The British government not only turns a blind eye to extremists, it positively assists them. The police recently helped the Nazi John Tyndall conduct a rally for the far right BNP in Burnley. At the same time, an antiracist festival planned by the ANL is banned. The BNP's so-called "Red White and Blue Festival" is to be allowed to go ahead in Lancashire. Because, you see, an antiracist music concert featuring chart-topping acts would apparently stir up racial tensions. And a Nazi gathering for the nation's bonecrunching racists wouldn't.

Shariah law? Try sponsored bigotry.


..
by Freedom 11:41am Sun Aug 11 '02



It would seem that some bus drivers of the Islamic faith are refusing to
drive past cathedrals, churches and other buildings displaying a cross. They
say it offends their deeply ingrained Muslim beliefs. In an effort to
mediate, some Nulabour mediators are trying to get the Red Crescent
displayed alongside the Sign Of The Cross on all Christian buildings that
are on all London bus routes. There are plans to extend this nationally.

In another case a lady who was wearing a cross and chain on the underground
lost her prosecution against a Muslim who snatched the gold chain from her
neck. He was caught shortly afterward, as he tried to alight. His defence
was that when she leaned forward (during the rush hour) the chain swung
forward and touched him. The QC defending him, a lady with high political
connections, told the court that her client had to take the Christian
instrument to his Mullah to receive dispensation. There had been no question
of him trying to steal it and it was a wicked Christian lie from a
right-wing Christian.

The judge agreed and threw the case out, he also admonished the Christian
lady and the police and stated that "Any Christians who allowed this type
of thing to happen again in the future would feel the weight of the law". He
did not say if this would be Islamic law. He also ordered the police and the
Christian offender to hand back the cross and chain so that the Muslim could
indeed receive the dispensation he deserved.

The Muslim who was attacked with the cross and chain by the Christian lady
is now suing both her and the police. Cherie is believed to be again acting
for him. They are seeking substantial damages. Mustafa Grouse.....The
Islamic wrongly accused has said that when they receive the compensation and
damages, he will make a substantial contribution to Anti-Christians in
Pakistan.


There's a word for you...
by lenin 12:05pm Sun Aug 11 '02



Racist. Frankly, I don't believe a word of this horseshit you're coming out with. You probably heard it from some BNP member who's recently been lobotomised. It's okay. You're not to know. You're probably too thick to think these things through for yourself. But if the woman lost her case, might that not imply that the Muslim man was in fact innocent? That is always assuming, of course, that there is even a minimal factual kernel in those nutty little fairy-tales you're trying to ply us with.

Freedom? Yes, free yourself. Free yourself from your mortal coil.


Amusing
by Mike 12:26pm Sun Aug 11 '02
 mjpann@essex.ac.uk


Freedom - Thats a parody right???? I didnt think it had got that bad yet.


Lenin...

I daresay you could be one of the regular flamers we get on this board??? I always post under my name and use my email address for valid constructive debate on issues with other people. You are the one hiding behind a pseudonym and claiming I'm a 'flamer'.

Am i a reactionary 'piece of shit' - again... no. If you take the time to read the links they're from legitimate news sources... not fabrications like you see on the Socialist workers party or ANL sites.

Extremist elements in the muslim community =
those recruiting muslim youth for jihad abroad,producing and distributing anti semetic literature,those engaged in fund raising for terrorist entitys and those sheltering illegal immigrants.

' When have they ever engaged in anything other than lawful activity?

so organising weapons training in the US for British islamic youth, selling racist hate tapes about whites and jews and calling for jihad, recruiting and brainwashing muslim teens to be sent to afghanistan and palestine, raising money for groups like al queda etc is legal is it?
Unless you have something intelligent to add to the debate i suggest you keep quiet. Its quite clear you dont beleive that there are any insidious elements within muslim communities.... WAKE UP and smell the coffee mate. All religions have insidious elements operating within them, and these elements need to be stamped out. There are quite a few extremist clerics here that are openly calling for jihads and claiming they wont rest till , and i qoute ' Britain is a muslim state'. if they want to live in a muslim state why dont they stay in one rather then come here and demand we cater to them. If they want to be in england then they should respect our laws and live in harmony with our culture and history... not expect us to change ours to suit them.

As to your BNP comment, the police have a duty to allow all 'peacefull' demonstrations to take place.

 http://www.anl.org.uk/campaigns.htm

 http://www.bnp.org.uk/rwb2002/launch.htm



Neither event is 'banned'

As for the red white and blue festivel. Whats wrong with people having what is essentially a holiday, on private land? its hardly causing offense to anyone apart from a few ultra left communist people that want to have 'thought police' eliminating all that dont pander to their marxist ideals.

The reason the council itself doesnt like ANL ralleys and demos and events is because it fears a crowd of the great unwashed anarchists will turn up and use the demo or event as an opportunity to demonstate their anti capatalist views by smashing up the place, creating litter and generally provoking the police.
The BNP's events on the other hand only end in trouble with ANL people turn up and want a fight or want to cause an obstruction.

This is clearly demonstrated from looking at the web pages. The BNP isnt calling for an illegal blockade of the highway or even a legal demonstration on 'public' property thats anti ANL orientated.
On the other hand the ANL is calling for people to distrupt the BNP's perfectly legal RWB event.

ANL are the ones that come across as fascists to me.


The ANL carnival was banned
by lenin 12:51pm Sun Aug 11 '02



The ANL carnival was banned by Stuart Caddy, Labour leader of Burnley council. And you are, indeed, a reactionary piece of shit if you are seriously trying to intimate that this country is being run according to Shariah law. It's so stupid, it isn't even funny. As for those being 'recruited' to 'Jihad' operations, there are Muslims who have been arrested and interned in this country on the most slender threads of evidence. If the police were able to obtain even the slightest hint of evidence that Muslim organisations were sponsoring terror, their leaders would already have been banged up without charge.

Also, the ANL is not a fascist organisation. It does not send street gangs of fascists out to beat up blacks or Asians. It does not promote a racial seperatist agenda - precisely the opposite. Perhaps you think it's a coincidence that most leading members of the BNP have some criminal convictions, often involving racist attacks, (such as Tony Lecomber's stabbing of a Jewish schoolteacher). If so, you have my condolences. Not everyone can handle elementary logic, and its unfair to mock those who can't. But for those of us who have some detailed knowledge and understanding of the BNPs history, it is straightforwardly ridiculous to commend their events as "perfectly legal" when we know that legality and illegality are irrelevant concepts to the BNP. Ask Nick Griffin, he'll tell you that power is ultimately "a matter of force and will". It certainly has nothing to do with elections and democracy.


clearly an example of left wing brainwashing
by mike 1:41pm Sun Aug 11 '02
 mjpann@essex.ac.uk


I find it amusing that you have to resort to challenging my intellect, age, using abusive names and terms, rather than rational arguments backed with supportive evidence to support your arguments. I beleive you are a victim of the marxist/ANL/SWP propaganda machine.


Parliamentary democracy or muslim state with sharia law???

that was my headline. I wasnt saying ' THIS IS A MUSLIM STATE WITH SHARIA LAW'. Did the IQ level in here just drop sharply with your arrival Lenin?

It was a rhetorical question and slighly meant as satire with regards to the subsequent 'opinion' i posted. Not a statement of absolute fact. If i had meant ' England is a Muslim state' i would have quite literally said that.

The labour council refused permission for the ANL event in Burnley because of concerns they quite publically explained to the ANL at the time.

The event is now going ahead in Manchester without opposition.

As for the issue of islamic extremists.


The police have indeed arrested 'some' extremist islamic clerics known to be involved in fund raising and promoting terrorist objectives thou a great deal have avoided detection as the police only have the intelligence information given to them by agencies such as MI5 and Special branch and indeed from concerned members of the muslim community themselves that have pointed out 'extremists' within their faith.


BNP v ANL = which is the fascist organistation.

The BNP doesnt call for the ANL to be banned. It doesnt spread lies about the ANL and it doesnt attempt to disrupt ANL activities beyond legitimately pointing out the errors and erroneous and vexatious comments the ANL makes

on the other hand the ANL fabricates lies and exagerates half truths about the BNP and any political group to the right of itself. According to many ANL supporters New Labour are right wing fascists.

The ANL is a front for the SWP and other socialist entitys. It's aim isnt to create a tolerant multi cultural society but instead to 'brainwash' people into accepting communist ideologies.

For example the ANL web site claims that the purpose of the BNP's Red white and Blue gathering is to worship hitler... something that is completely insane and untrue. A typical vexatious comment.

Much like the ANL's claim that the nail bomber was an active agent of the BNP (ANL posters up all over my university grrrrrrr).

This is also nonsense. The nail bomber joined the bnp and then left, as he found that his extremist opinions on violence towards minorities were not welcomed by the BNP. He quit because he found no support amongst the BNP ranks for his extremism.

As for you other comment, yes, its true that there are several prominent members of the BNP that have criminal convictions. But this is exactly true of the ANL as well. You make it sound like the BNP is made up of goose stepping skin heads with swastika tattoos and pit bulls.
This is far from the truth. From what I can gather from reading factual reports on the BNP, some of their own data, some from the press and mainly government information, the BNP doesnt promote violence and in fact actively discourages it.
They cut all links with groups like C18 a long time ago.

In fact its the loony left that seem to be more willing to use violence, intimidation, lies and vexatious allegations, criminal damage and illegal forms forms of protest much more willingly then the far right.


The facts, the facts
by lenin 2:11pm Sun Aug 11 '02



I'm afraid you ask for abuse with an idiotic post like that. First of all, the ANL is not an SWP front. It does not seek to win anyone over to socialism. Most of it's affiliates are trade unionists, local anti-racist groups, liberals and Labour party members. It's treasurer is a Labour MEP called Glyn Ford.

Second of all, you evidently don't pay much attention to what the BNP does say, because it regularly pumps lies out about the ANL when it gets the opportunity. Their members informed Burnley residents that the ANL supported terrorism and campaigned for the release of paedophiles. Your assertion that the ANL are headed by people with criminal convictions is absurd. Got any proof? Or did you pick that one up from the British Nationalist? Perhaps Julie Waterson being nicked on an anti-war demo is just as serious as Tony Lecomber being banged up for stabbing a Jewish schoolteacher, bombing the offices of political opponents, or indeed Nick Griffin receiving a two-year suspended sentence for incitement to racial hatred when he published a magazine claiming the media were controlled by Jews and claiming the holocaust never happened. (No extremism there, obviously).

Thirdly, the issue of BNP violence is not a simple matter of what they say. In public, they have eschewed violent means in recent years, because nail-bombings and the like tend to be frowned upon by the public. However, Nick Griffin, Mick Treacy, Tony Lecomber ... all leading members of the BNP, and all of them have criminal convictions. In fact, you may recall that one of their main local organisers for the election in Burnley was a convicted gang rapist who had a string of other convictions, many of them to do with racist violence.

You say they have broken ties with C-18. Searchlight magazine might dispute that assertion, but if they're such a wonderfully democratic and non-fascist organisation, the wonder is that they were ever associated with such berserk extremists in the first place. If extremism is not tolerated in the BNP, (pace, David Copeland), then why were they having their members addressed by a professed Nazi, Hitler-worshipper, advocate of violence against Jews, Blacks and Asians, John Tyndall? If they have no connections with extremism, why were Searchlight able to obtain footage of Nick Griffin attending a Ku Klux Klan rally in the States, in which he explained that "selling your message doesn't mean selling out. It means choosing your words carefully. The four words of our new slogan, Freedom, Security, Identity, Democracy. They sell our message perfectly and noone can criticise you for them."

The Red, White and Blue Festival has been infiltrated several times in the past by journalists, and what they typically discover is an avalanche of racist humour, seig heiling youngsters and jokes about the holocaust. (Which, as Griffin would have us believe, never happened).

Violence, intimidation, lies and vexatious allegations... Now, what violence has the ANL ever enacted? We don't bomb people's offices, we don't stab people, we don't incite hatred. As for lies, your claim that the ANL reckons New Labour supporters are rightwing fascist is a blatant lie. Particularly since many within the ANL are supporters of New Labour. Many who sign ANL petitions and turn up on their demos are nothing to do with the SWP or any other socialist group.

"The loony left" at least has the virtue of being honest about its political intentions. It has not engaged in violence. The far right, whom you seem out to defend, have engaged in subterfuge about their true intentions and have a history of promoting and indulging in violence where they feel they can get away with it.


And another thing...
by Searchlight 2:24pm Sun Aug 11 '02





BNP set to invade Oldham for nazi festival
by Nick Lowles
Anti-racist activists, community leaders and local politicians have reacted with horror to the news that the British National Party intends to hold its summer Red, White and Blue festival in Oldham, scene of Britain's worst race riots for several decades last summer. Pressure is now building on the authorities to ban the event, due to be held on 17 and 18 August.

A field in Diggle, on the outskirts of Oldham, has been chosen to host the racist jamboree. The owner of the land, Royton builder Colin Burrows, is a BNP member. The seven-acre field, known locally as Diggle cricket field, can hold up to 800 people. After the strong BNP showing in the local elections in the Northwest and West Yorkshire, the organisers will be hoping to attract nearly that number for the event.

After two years of poor weather, the BNP plans to have one large marquee to host the entire event rather than separate tents for stalls and a children's play area, which were badly affected by the rain.

The RWB was initially planned for Wales but after the farmer there pulled out, fearing reprisals from angry locals, the party looked elsewhere. Several farmers were approached around Oldham before Burrows agreed to offer his land, but they told the BNP where to get off. Since news of the BNP festival leaked out, Burrows has come under intense pressure to reverse his decision.

Initial reaction to the BNP has been mixed. Local community leaders and politicians have demanded a ban on the event but so far the police are refusing to reveal their intentions.

The BNP is attempting to pass the day off as a peaceful family-orientated festival and has described it as a private party, in an attempt to avoid the need for an entertainment licence. Of course it is nothing of the sort.

Last year's RWB festival was widely promoted in party publications as "the nationalist event of the year". Everyone who supported the BNP was invited and participants were expected to buy tickets.

This year's event is following the same path. "This is going to be the biggest RWB to date," announced the BNP's latest members' bulletin. "Don't miss it."

The notion that it could be a simple family event was exposed as a lie by the BBC Panorama team who filmed last year's show. The BBC reported that:
Leading Combat 18 nazis, including people who have openly boasted about their involvement in terrorism, and Blood and Honour skinheads were there.
Well known nazi songs were performed by Stigger, a former member of the infamous nazi band Skrewdriver. The songs were greeted with nazi salutes.
Football hooligans from Swansea, Aston Villa, Leeds, Rangers, Hearts and Oldham were present.
The comedy night descended into a tirade of racist jokes and abuse.
Nazi, antisemitic and Holocaust denial books were sold on the party's literature stall, including My Awakening by the former US Ku Klux Klan leader, David Duke.
The Saturday evening ended with a CD of SS marching music being played in the beer tent. Party leader Nick Griffin was in the tent at the time.

The BNP always knew that news of its festival would leak out but hoped it could keep the venue secret until the last moment. With over 600 BNP extremists descending on Oldham, the police would have little choice but to allow the event to go ahead. If not, the BNP leaders had privately plotted, its supporters would converge on the town centre, a far worse option for the police.

Compounding the situation will be the presence of 50 Oldham hooligans. They will be joined by C18 thugs from across the region, all eager to use the event to instigate more racial conflict.

Even after the local paper released details of the venue, some in the BNP still believe that the event will take place as planned. The police and local politicians, they believe, will be too scared to cancel it for fear of a backlash from local white people.

Others are less convinced and already other locations in the Northwest are being explored. However, if the authorities make a stand and ban the racist jamboree, other councils are likely to follow suit.

The case for banning the festival is strong. The prospect of 800 racists coming into town is clearly a provocation to Oldham's Asian communities, especially as dozens of young men are beginning to go through the courts for offences relating to last year's disturbances.

More importantly, the RWB festival is likely to incite another wave of racial violence in the town, something that no sane person would wish. In late May, Chief Superintendent David Baines announced that racial incidents in the town had dropped dramatically since the beginning of this year.

"The good news is that since January the trend is definitely falling," Baines told the Oldham Chronicle. "Suddenly this year the trend is going down and people are starting to feel better, and we are starting to build bridges.

"I have to take a positive stance and say the statistics are telling a story and are useful. But one incident can affect people's perceptions."

In view of Baines's acknowledgement that one incident could undo the progress that has been made, his force should ponder whether permitting the racist gathering is the most productive way to improve community relations.

Leadership is also needed from the local council. It is not enough to hope the police ban the event without the council explaining why. Some politicians in Oldham are worried that a ban would result in a racist backlash from BNP supporters. It might, but the vast majority of Oldham's population simply want to live in peace and, given the choice between that and a racist festival that would send the town back to the awful situation it faced only a year ago, there is little contest.

More importantly, the council should be providing its own community events to draw in local people. Winning the cultural battle against fascism is just as important as defeating Mick Treacy and his local BNP branch at the ballot box. And this means offering a positive alternative to the message of hate put out by the BNP.


Marxist propaganda and drivel.
by Mike 3:00pm Sun Aug 11 '02
 mjpann@essex.ac.uk


Its quite clear that you are stuck in your mindset of intolerance and anti free speech. Its also quite clear that you are hypocrits that think your right to freedom of speech and association and freedom of protest should be protected but those whose opinions differ from yours should be restricted, curtailed or destroyed.

The next time something like that what happened on Sept 11th in the United states is repeated, (maybe it'll be closer to home next time ) then perhaps you should think of the possibility that your own extremist views and tolerance of those that are clearly insidious terrorist agents or at the very least sympathisers of such elements, are responsible for the actions. Your very political ideology and support of such people, and refusal to accept that being overly tolerant and not vigilant against those that support of represent the axis of evil, extremist religious or marxist ideologists etc are the ROOT cause of our problems. That racism is caused not by a few xenophobic whites but by the flood of illegal immigrants hell bent on using this country like a treasure horde to loot whist the british dragon isnt sleeping but is chained by the advocates of political correctness gone insane, by those who demand more then they deserve from a system rather then embracing our culture and being assimilated into it as one of us, demand to be treated as if they own the nation, perhaps then, when the blood of your own people are your hands, just maybe you might realise that all YOU are the very people responsible for your own destruction.