I think we know about the SWP by now, enough already. Please don't keep posting this kind of sniping on the newswire, it's not news and really is pretty pointless.

So which are the nice companies that I should buy my food from then???

I don't have time to ravel far, I'm paid shit so I can't buy expensive stuff. No space to grow my own.

I hate McDonalds too (never buy the shit), but I do't feel good about shopping in Iceland or Asda, they are all shit. Don't believe in consumer power, don't believe in 'good' corporations, don't have any choice but to shop in them.

Will join a political boycott, like no Isaeli goods though.

vincent's right though, it's pretty hard to avoid supporting the bastards

i always try to shop in smaller local shops, avoid major brands and excess packaging, but don't grow my own, or belong to any food co-op, should i be guilty about it? if you work full time it's a lot more difficult to avoid the convenient consumer trap

It sure isn't 'cool' to be seen eating in McDonalds is it?
Perhaps he already has a partner and couldn't care less what people thought of his 'cred'...I know the food is shite, not to mention the corp is fucked and all(which isn't?), but it's also cheap and not everyone can afford to eat at some fancy 'soy latte' cafe. Do you think capitalism can be defeated by boycotting it? Don't you think one of the reasons some people don't go there (or at least, would sooner drop dead than be seen there by certain other people)is that it just ain't cool. It's frequented by genuinly poor and daggy-looking people with shite politics as opposed to middle-class university students going through their more-radical-than-thou + 'alternative' clothes and haircut, 'pissing off mummy and daddy' phase. Do you have a car? Where do you buy your petrol from? Is that better than buying McDonalds?

assuming you have just now discovered the true face of the SWP (which is difficult, for they've got more faces than the old town clock !), let me assure you that many socialist groups disapprove of the SWP as much as you do, mainly because theyre not real socialists, but we think they might be there to confuse the workers movement in case it ever starts to get anywhere.

Craxi was a socialist, but the centro sociali types spelt his name with a swastika instead of an X, his PSI got on great guns with the DS in tuscany and while we are on the subject

here's an intro meet Your DS Hosts in Florence .

When the Democratic Sinistra (DS) came to power in Tuscany in1945 they were called Partito Communista Italiano, (PCI) In 1992 (circa) they became the partito Democratico di Sinistra, (PDS), when 95% of the party moved to the Right and 5% moved to the Left and became Rifondazione Communista (RfC).
A few years later they again changed names, moved further to the right, and became the (DS), and shortly afterwards won the election to become the first Italian “leftie” government ever .
The (PCI) would / should have governed Italy after the war and if the CIA/yankkkees had not rigged a series of elections, they would have done.
So instead of the (PCI) ruling Italy the Democratic Christians (DC) were kept in power for 45 years, by whatever means were necessary, Strategy of Tension and (DC) controlled Red Brigade (BR) Moro kidnapping ect ect ;
The DC were a bunch of crooks very similar to Berlusconi and cronies, like Mr B they had very strong links with the Mafia.

It is true to say that the up until the 1980’s the (PCI) protected Tuscany from the ravages of the mafia / (DC) , the region was quiet and sleepy, no big developements no concrete,
no cash.

In the 1980’s Craxi and the Partito Socialista Italiana (PCI) SOCIALISTS ! came onto the scene, and lit the fuse to BOOM time. Bettino was a very close mate of Berlusconi
so obviously his party was centre left.
In the north they supported the DC but in Tuscany the PDS / DS were in power , no surprise they hooked up and formed a coalition, DS, PSI, Verde.
The change in Italy was incredible before Craxi everybody was driving about in beaten up old bangers , dreaming of driving BMWs and Mercs, after Craxi everyone had a BM’ or MERC.

The Craxi boom period was later subject to a investigation by Italian magistrates , which was known as “Tangentopoli”, (kick backs, bribes, bungs) and was lead by charasmatic magistrate Antonio Di Pietro
Although most of the people originally arrested and tried for their part in “tangentopoli”
got off the hook, one or two did get prison sentences .
But tangentopli did not reach TUSCANY, although 5 of the (DS) mayors from the province of Firenze resigned between Dec 91 and January 92, when Craxi was Arrested.

Other important dates in tuscany since WW2 ,

1965 . the demise of the “Mezzadria” (Tide Farmers)

The aristocratic (parasites) land owners , had put no investment into their lands for hundreds of years , they had taken 50% of the harvest from time.
The farmers asked them to invest in machines and the (parasites) said no, why should they , they did nothing and got a little, if they had to invest would they be better off ?

The result was that the farmers left the land, the ones that didn’t give up either starved or were booted off by the cops. With the advent of the EEC the (parasites) no longer need
to seriously farm their lands , they just take the EEC grants and practise pretend farming.

1472. the banca dei monte paschi di Siena (MPS) was founded .
Despite being the first bank to finance berlusconi, the (MPS) is officially a Leftie bank
the links with the DS are common knowledge . The mayors of the towns in the province of Siena are Deputys on the Foundation that controls the bank.
Although the banca Toscana is more visible in Firenze , (MPS) has the controlling interest in this and most other Tuscan banks.
(MPS) also runs a big money laundering operation out of Guernsey, where it owns four banks .

Tuscany is the last strong hold of the left in Italy. Claudio Martini is using the ESF as a
sort of “Custers last stand” against Big Chief sittin Bolloxconi, they are completely surrounded and Berlusco controls 90% of TV / Media.

Claudio Martini, has asked the (Verdi) to handle the organistion of the ESF, the greens in tuscany have an appalling environmental record probably worse than the (DS).
One very good example of the Greens / DS and the environment is the total Pollution of the River Merse in the province of Siena / Grossetto.
The merse is a good example of how the (DS) and (Verde) have allowed Industrialist to do what ever the fuck they like. In this case ENI the ex Italian state OIL and Petrochemical company stored toxic waste in an old mine, to help out the regional authorities officially documented these as aggregates !!!
the records still have not been corrected , therefore ENI does not have to py a penny to clear up their mess . The ENI / Merse story is just one example of how the people are shafted by these (DS) fascists who still call each other “Comrade” (SICK !!) .

Check the link some english text
 http://web.tiscalinet.it/barocci/arsenico/

The (DS) & (MPS) have set up a totalitarian regime , a hegemony if berklusconi does take tuscany he won’t need to change anything just take the wheel and full steam ahead !!!!!

The ESF uses a lot of brave slogans , like for example “ another world is possible”
if the (DS) are anything to go by “ the same world is possible “ with a bunch of radical
chic trendy, leftie fakes at the controls , and they have already sold out to their corporate mates, so fuck the working classes fuck the people money rools ok !!
and loads of fun jobs for the same old middles class wankers brigade !!!!

 http://www.verdinrete.it/verditoscana/index.htm

The point in the original comment isn't about McDonalds but about the fact that if you want to change the world then you've got to change your actions it's not enough to just sit back and wait for the revolution to happen.. and then change.

There are loads of other places where you can buy cheap food from local/small businesses rather than large multi-nationals. And if if you can't get everything from your local market how about at least trying your hardest. And if you want to eat out why not go to your local fish and chip shop, which is probably better value for money than McCancer anyway.

How does it follow that Jonathon’s support for creating opposition in workplaces is a conspiracy for ‘a centralised top-down hierachy [spelling!?], much like the structure of the SWP’??
This is the raving of another anarchist loon. Stop trying to slag off the SWP its pathetic. Your statements are not logical so they fail to convince.

Somebody else on this website asked how come the actions of Genoa cannot happen here and these commentaries sum up why.Unlike Italy,there is no sense of collective solidarity in the U.K. Instead we have tiresome bickerings on who are the real socialists or true anti-capitalists.That is as much an indictment of anarchists as it is for the S.W.P. Reform,revolution,taking or breaking power is a debate about strategy and tactics.Not about who possesses some sort of transcendent authority.Unfortunately anarchism,left radicalism,rebellion in this country which is expressed as lifestyle choice is the other side of the coin from right wing libertarianism.Thatcher's children indeed,we ve become rank individualists.To speak of difference is how things are and nothing to do with how things ought to be in everyday experience.

The fact is that however socialist you feel, you can't escape the capitalist system. Consumer boycotts won't achieve anything so long as exploitative and alienating productive relations stay as they are. It's all very well demonising McDonalds, but if you tried to eat according to socialist principles you would probably starve. The same goes for the clothes you buy, the house you live in, the car you drive, the train you travel on, the health services you use, etc, etc. They are all part of a capitalist system and we depend on them to live. The point is to create a new way of life that is democratically controlled and based on fulfilling needs and desires, instead of being led by a profit motive. That requires something more far-reaching and revolutionary than smashing up McDonalds.

The reader will notice that the moaning about ‘disunity’ only comes AFTER someone tries to question why the anarchist is attacking the SWP. In other words, slag off the SWP as much as you like but just don’t try and reply. This fools only the foolish.

It would help if you read closely what I said.For I was being critical of the anarchists!Do I detect a certain egocentricity here? Too much purity of vision around here,not enough hope or generosity.Lots of competition between socialism,anarchism etc. on the global political market.Which brand do you choose?

of course you have to participate in the capitalist system in order to feed and clothe yourself, but it's v.possible to do by using local shops and fair trade products.... sure neither is perfect but it's a lot better than funding McDonalds, Tescos etc....
Essentially i'm a lazy b*****d but i still manage to live without a car, eat a vegan diet, give money to charities and (as far as i know) avoid giving money to multinationals... and if i can do it anyone can. I totally agree that the attitude of 'when the revolution comes then i'll change' is idiotic....all u can do is to take responsibility for your own actions and their consequences....
as for SWP/anarchist feuding, i think we should concentrate on what unites us rather than what divides us....it's like Monty Python's Life of Brian, all the revolutionary groups fighting each other rather than the real nme.......

I have yet to see how fair trade bananas have boosted farm-gate prices to a level in which workers are paid decent salaries. In fact, fair trade has had no impact on commodity prices or farmers' incomes, particularly coffee which continues to slump in price. The only good fair trade has done is to make Western consumers feel better about their lifestyles. As for veganism, I don't know what you are trying to achieve by that. It's just another silly American dietry fad, I guess.
What you are doing is not revolutionary and will change nothing. It's a lazy and futile way of making a political statement. If all those who eat organic and/or fair trade produce actually became politically active, then we'd have a genuine mass movement instead of a bunch of pillocks playing silly buggers with the police once a year.

The thing that concerned me was the notion that you can carry on living a consumer capitalist lifestyle without supporting any alternatives which a lot of so-called revolutionaries do.

If one carries on shopping in supermarkets and eating at places like McDs we'll never change anything when the revolution comes because they'll still have a financial base and their won't be any established alternatives.

Whereas if people started supporting co-ops and local producers that are less dependent on the global capitalist system then real change might be easier. Like someone else said, surely its better to eat at your local fish 'n chip shop than McDs, they may still be capitalist but they're likely to be a hell of a lot better.

This has nothing to do with an anarchist/socialist fight (just because i attack the SWP doesn't mean i'm attacking all socialists, just the top down hierarchy power grabbing sort). I just wanted to point out that if you want to see change you have to live these changes to show their is a viable alternative.

hello,
this is in reply to dan's post. Don't be so skeptical about fair trade, organic whatever. It's about decisions people make within their own lives. We're not just against things, we're also for things too. And if people ditched supermarkets and multinationals in favour of local produce, farmers' markets, ethical products etc. then that would be a huge step in the right direction. It would be bypassing a major cause of exploitation and domination.

some will compain that this is a 'bourgeois' strategy because these products are more expensive - "how can the true worker afford organic pasta" - they will wring their hands. But as more people change their habits and buy these goods then they become cheaper and more widespread.

And the revolutionary potential of local markets etc is that it builds links between producers and consumers and even crossovers - maybe stressed workers go and help out on an organic farm at the weekend.

Saying "I'll change when the revolution comes" is one of the most idiotic things possible to say and do. The 'revolution' will not occur until people have changed their habits as well as their ideas. Revolution is not just about selling papers to build a 'movement' or getting everybody protesting every weekend. It is about creating alternatives. And habits of consumption is one of the best things to work on with this - building decentralised and autonomous food networks is really positive. It's also a lot more concrete because you have immediate results, whereas protesting is often demoralising.

Miss Point: You are suggesting there can be better forms of capitalism and that these can be easily achieved as a stop-gap between now and the "revolution". I think you are fooling yourself. Do you think that the local chippy and corner shop are less connected to the global capitalist system than McDonalds? Do you think that bit of plaice has been hand-reared by nice men with woolly jumpers? Do you think that the nice John Lewis Partnership and their Waitrose co-operatives operate any differently from the evil, slimy Sainsbury group?

The fact is that most of what is produced in this world is through exploitative, profit-seeking behaviour. Maybe your chippy doesn't make as much profit as Tesco's, but I bet you they use the same suppliers. So don't get these impressions that buying from a small businessmen makes you any more moral than someone who chooses to eat in McDonalds. That's just your own egotistic delusions kicking in.

So Dan , Mate, there is no difference between buying from a non unionised, scab labour firm run by a fascist and a worker run co-operative then. Good display of logic there!

There are plenty of cheaper alternatives to muckdonalds, problem with Brits is that they are too thick to know better!
They spend their time in a drunken haze and are only too happy to feed their kids junk while they spend all their hard earned dosh on booze, drugs, cars and dodgy satellite TV.
It is actually a lot cheaper to buy healthy fresh food than all that crap so beloved by the British people.
Britain is the only country in Europe that the working class eat worse than the middle class, in other places its the bourgoise who love all that processed junk.
As far a lifties eating in muckdonalds, they are just the same as everybody else, shameful, but unfortunately true.

I've eaten food from McD's, Asda, Tesco, Sainsburys etc. I have a car and a bike, have travelled on planes & trains. I own CD's a TV, record player, hifi, clothes from various companies. I live in a house - have a mortgage etc fucking tc. On top of this I use a laptop - 'borrowed' from work.
If you want to grow yer own food and cotton for clothes and walk everywhere then fine. But don't moralise to me about how much capitalism I participate in... you can't escape it. The point is my dear woolly moralists is its our power as workers that makes us a threat not because we buy a fecking burger from mini effin capitalist rather than the multi national variety. An SWP eating a big mac - I've heard it all. I suppose you connect to the internet with a piece of string and a plastic cup...

Why do people insist on extolling the virtues of 'small' capitalism?. The exploitative relationship between worker and owner is still there. The posistion of the worker is not enhanced because their boss is using 'ethical' materials. The 'ethical' boss is still subject to the restraints of capitalism and the need to create profit.

besides the very obvious point about the exploitation and massive suffering of other creatures(it's all the same idea, treating creatures as commodities and trying to get the biggest profit margin regardless of their suffering
,if you can make an argument for eating a burger, you can make an argument for defending racism, homophobia etc i.e 'so what,i don't care about their feelings, they're different, it's just nature....')
there are v strong environmental reasons for a veagn diet....
to feed food through animals is a massive waste of food for a start, a cow eats approx 10 times its bodywieght in food before it is slaughtered. If we cut out the middle man, so to speak, there would ten times the food available, or 9/10ths of the land currently used for farming could be opened up, this has particular importance in Latin America where vast areas of forest are being chopped down to create more space for cattle rearing for US and European consumption. Cows also produce 25% of the methane in the atmosphere.
Of course there are also health reasons, vegans have massively lower rates of heart disease (75%) and many forms of cancer (50%)

a combination of ignorance and illogical ranting....
i'm wondering where u buy your food and clothes from...
and if u seriously believe that fair trade initiatives are as bad as 'export processing zones' and the like then..well...go sort out something better instead of unleashing your dogma on everyone here...
I didnt claim to be doing anything revolutionary, i was simply explaining how i spend my money in a way that, hopefully, minimizes exploitation (and when i say exploitation, i don't arbritarily draw the line at human exploitation)
as for local corner shops vs supermarkets...the point is that supermarkets are staffed by minimum wage workers and run on an enviromentally destructive basis, (read Captive State by George Monbiot, i havent got the time or space to analyse it all here) whilst my corner shop is run and owned by a family, whom I have got to know, and with whom my voice has an impact.
Kinda funny how I make a post saying let's not sit around slagging each other off...then get someone(guees what) slagging me off...
as for u deciding veganism is a silly American fad (!) i'm not even gonna bother answering that...if you're gonna 'denounce' summat, learn about it first....

I agree that we live in a capitalist society and we all are reliant on the capatalist system to live.

But it seems pretty crap to simply accept this and not give a damn where you spend your money. There are real co-operatives out there and wherever possible these should be supported. For example there are food co-ops producing local food for local markets.

And fair trade goods are better than multinational corporations. Question: Which brand of coffee would you buy: Fair Trade Cafe Direct or Nescafe?
They are both shit, but the fair trade brand is a bit less shit then Nescafe.

To do nothing until the mythical revolution comes is simply lazy, i want to make a change here and now to people's lives, this means my life has to change. Not just my views.

Eating at McDonalds??? Oh my GOD!!!!! Obviously you don't have the right left 'street cred.' Leave McDonalds to the Proles! (they cause revolution)