SWP Will Never be Heroes of Socialism

Bill Bore | 08.02.2002 17:58

Referring to recent postings, if the SWP insist on using their numbers to 'swamp' the socialist movement as a whole, they can expect a verbal 'bashing' on this site!

Any party which parades the words Worker, Socialism, Marx, Trotsky, Lenin, what-have-you, should make sure they know what it entails. But they dont. In fact, they're a feeble recurrence of other turncoat parties who refused to live up to the promises of 1848 (Marxs Manifesto) and will end up in the footnotes of history, of only interest to students who want to study a particular specialist part of history: "Decline of International Marxism 1970-2000" or something).
Non-Marxists may not know it, but the SWP repudiate Marx and others on several points.
The 1848 Manifesto as referred to above, is dismissed as being only for the artisans of the time, say the SWP. Really ? So Why did Trotsky reaffirm it in its entirity in 1938 then ?
Marxs theory of "Aristocracy of Labor" is laughed away as arcane and irrelevant. If so, how do they explain that the tendency for workers to identitfy with and emulate the ruling class is a well-confirmed phenomenon, which Marx detected at its very inception.
Why do people visting at SWP meetings get laughed at if they talk about say, Hegel, or Trotsky's Permanent Revolution Theory ? Why do SWP members talk less about revolution and prefer to go on about Trades Unions and the NHS ? Why are there Christians in the SWP for that matter? How come none of them seem to read any of the key texts of Marxism ?
No, they deserve the criticism. Theyre useless and a threat to the movement, for by associating with 'Old Labour', they create a leak straight to Millbank and thus to the Establishment itself. Why dont they ask to move in ? I just feel sorry for the ones who joined in all sincerity, and who will end up like ex- moonies once they've become disillusioned.

Bill Bore

Comments

Hide the following 38 comments

Sour Grapes

08.02.2002 18:26

Don't pontificate - put your own beliefs to the test. If you aren't willing or able to operate in the real world as it actually exists don't inflict your boring diatribes on a movement more interested on looking outward than gazing at it's navel.

Oh and please name these so called christians in the SWP - I've yet to met any.

Any serious revolutionary is going to be active in their Trade Union because that is where the class struggle is most obvious. You appear to want to suggest that you are a marxist but seem not to understand ABC.

Cymro Coch

Well said

08.02.2002 18:31

Very well said. They are not even regarded as Trotskyists by the rest of the left. They have been consistently refered to as centrist throughout their existence by them.
They aspire to be what the Communist Party once was. A sort of left-wing pressure group acting upon the Labour Party at grass roots level. Unfortunately for them, the Labour Party at grass roots level is being deserted by the working-class and many branches are having to amalgamate as a direct result.
Their influence within the trade-union movement is tiny. Where it does exist it is within the professional groups such as the NUT. Hardly among the forefront of militancy there then.
Their re-writing of history is truly amazing and as someone said in another posting, would do justice to the novel 1984. One day, it's support for British troops on Irish streets, the next it's their involvement in the Troops Out Movement.
One day it's for doing away with religious bigotary over the Rushdie affair or Loyalist paramilitaries, the next it's support for the Taliban and placards declaring 'Islam Is Not The Enemy.'
One day it attacks anti-capitalists over June 18, then having missed the boat, it tries to involve itself with the same comrades the following November.
During the 1970's, it failed to take over the Anti Fascist Commitees. It's response was to set up it's own 'anti-Nazi' movement involving bishops, Tories and assorted 'celebrities'.
It refused to join the Socialist Alliance, then having realised another opportunity for gaining members was passing them by, they join and several other groups leave as a result.
What became of their much vaunted 'Action Plan'? Having served it's purpose to gain publicity, it was quietly dropped.
Try as they might, they will never be taken seriously by the more aware members of the working-class. Hence the entirely justified ridicule they come in for on this site. People may be offended to see such things written down, but the remarks appearing on these pages are uttered by many comrades on demonstrations and in meetings wherever the SWP show themselves.

Pogue Mahone.

ex .swp,er....who,s not a moonie

08.02.2002 18:41

Why do,you people ,who slag of swp,not aim your anger at the state?? The idea that revolution can can come about ,by NOT involving workers from ,NHS,or unionised work forces,is just plain stupid, or are you and your "crew" going to bring forth the revolution on behalf of us?some times when i read your petty bickering ,i think your either nazis in disguise or establishment fuckers OR JUST PLAIN STUPID,,and i hope you dont start slandering me ,about being mid/class ,etc .(..working class and proud ,,,with plenty of prison riots ,police/prison screw assaults to my name ,)
SO GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER,AS YOUR DOING THE STATES ,DIVIDE /RULE TATIC FOR THEM ,,OK SO THE SWP DO ATTEND MOST DEMOS,SO WHAT!!

shug,mcc

Infuriatingly infantile

08.02.2002 18:47

I am suprised this SWP-bashing is regarded as 'news' or in anyway interesting. The IMC newswire is advertised as having 'up to the minute coverage of protests, actions and demonstrations', yet it's littered with this kind of irrelevant garbage.

Daniel Brett
mail e-mail: dan@danielbrett.co.uk

Untouchable?

08.02.2002 19:02

Making people aware of an enemy of socialism is hardly doing the states work. Especially considering the state's involvement with the SWP and the SWP's involvement with dodgy state connected outfits like Searchlight. Let's not forget who it was who supported Ken Livingstone as mayor for London, and their encouragement to vote for the completely statist Labour Party. They are a drain on the movement. It's not infantile, it's a matter of fact. Are they some sort of revered institution regarded as beyond criticism? If criticism is due, they will get it. If they don't like it, I suggest they give up attempting to run everything they come into contact with.

Pogue Mahone.

Kiss my...

08.02.2002 19:20

Pogue - the first copy of Socialist Worker published after the British troops went into Ireland called for them to leave - this differentiated the Intrnational Socialists from every other group on the left in 1968. As you are dishonest enought to lie about that, why should we give any credence to anything else that spouts from your fron the noun you have adopted as part of your name?

Cymro Coch

whose interests are being served here?

08.02.2002 19:40

don't we really have enough, together, to argue for, to fight for? who are the opposition here? ok, heres a solution, lets all get on with fighting against those who oppress, victimise, kill, exploit other people and then we can argue about whose political philosophy or which bit of it, or lack of it, is more or less important than another. but until then... I am beginning to think that all this anti-swp stuff is not actually being put up by people with any desire to change society but is instead intended to amplify dissent and advertise this to anyone who is watching ie. those who would wish to use this kind of conflict against the left.
or am i now becoming another conspiracy theorist?
meanwhile, people die.

heather

Welsh Red

08.02.2002 20:17

Was it called Socialist Worker back then, or was it still called Labour Worker? The party you still admire and encourage people to vote for had turned it's back on you, though you still had and continue to have an unrequited love for it. As revolutionaries, can we take you seriously when you stand in elections to the British Parliament?

Pogue Mahone.

Isn't it funny...

08.02.2002 20:35

Ever noticed how the swp bashers always operate in pairs? Is it because they're shy retiring flowers who live in constant fear of reprisals...

Or do they sit at adjacent desks in thames house

Ecgfrith der gesip

Oppress, victimise, kill....

08.02.2002 20:41

Heather, you quite are quite rightly appalled by those who "opress, victimise, kill, exploit" other people. This is why so many of us stand in opposition to the SWP. They worship two men who did exactly those things at Kronstadt and the Ukraine. Why should we suspect they would not do it here if ever they got the opportunity? We don't trust the BNP because we know the history of those they worship and know they would revert to kind. We would do well to remember how Lenin and Trotsky betrayed the Russian workers in 1917 and that their modern day followers would revert to kind. It doesn't bother me at all what people say about them any more than I care what people say about the National Front. And I will admit to being amused by much of what is written about them. Keep it up comrades.

Ivor the Engine.

Stupid arguments

08.02.2002 20:58

You might stand in opposition to the SWP, but they are not in government and they don't have power. It's important to fight capitalism and the state. Why don't you get this into your thick head? My fellow countrymen in Nigeria are being robbed and plundered by your country and all you do is fight with each other. You have the power to change things, to stop the arms trade and bring the multi-nationals who enslave us to their knees. You are too stupid and spoilt to know any better. You are in the nest of capitalism and you argue over who eats the worms.

You western leftists are all so stupid and rich that you can only fight each other. You have no guts and no fire, except when it comes to attacking one another. When it rains, you don't demonstrate. It rains so much in this stupid country that no-one does anything. When the police raise their batons, you all run away like cowards. When the newspapers call you violent, you give up. So all you do is fight each other and achieve nothing. You British are shit.

Indymedia is also a waste of time. We could have groups talking here but all we have is venom and hatred and division.

I don't care if you are SWP, IRA, Anarchism, Labour Party or whatever. If you care about the world and want justice and know who the enemy is and want to fight it, then you are good and we can work in solidarity. If all you do is argue with each other, then you are the enemy.

Adewale

And you are here!!!!!

08.02.2002 21:20

And we british are so shit you are here among us. We are so shit you enjoy our company and our weather enough not to go home and help your country in its need. We are shit but you are shitter

Wilko

well said Adewale

08.02.2002 21:50

If I'm looking to cause an IM ruckus in a couple of days time, I know just to post an article along the lines of 'SWP is crap' or 'there are too many twats posting obnoxious messages'. There are obviously too many people here, they are self-selecting enough not to represent the 'British', who are bound in to ideological neural loops, who can only view the world in linear fashion and discrete entities, while failing to notice the interconnectedness of events and ideas, and therefore blind to the reality of the world that lies beyond their own egotistical positioning. That's why some have complained of 'non-news' items being posted. For them 'news' means propaganda which substantiates their ideological stance.

Another loony

08.02.2002 21:52

Who the fuck are you? If he lives here, he's in his own country. Stupid bastard. So the SWP aren't the only shitkickers around. There's fucking you as well. Ha! I thought I'd give it a rest tonight then along comes the living brain dead to liven the show up.

Ronnie.

Continued Page 94...

08.02.2002 21:58

They say that success breeds unity on the left and setbacks breed division and recrimination. The objective, material reason for the the divisions and mutual recriminations within the Brit left in the post-war period is the fact that we live in the heart of the imperialist monster. The unionised working class is cushioned from the worst effects of poverty by crumbs from the superprofits of imperialist superexploitation of the Third World. The "labour aristocracy" is bought off and co-opted so that it is very difficult to build a really revolutionary mass organisation in britain or the US. The unionised workers here have access to luxury consumer durables and priveleges (cars, TVs, PCs, foreign holidays etc) that are unavailable in the poorest countries. You can stand outside a UK factory with a socialist newspaper till your blue in the face and may be sell 1 or 2. Lack of progress breeds frustration and recriminations on the left. The SWP has done better than most in overcoming the obstacles. The Anarchists (abbrev. Narchs) are jealous, hence the constant venom on this site towards them.

Fred

I meant Wilko

08.02.2002 22:00

I meant Wilko not you dh, by the way.

Ronnie.

WHAT?????????????

08.02.2002 22:03

Wilko, what??? "we are shit, but you are shitter" What is this?........... personal abuse on someone from Nigeria, directed at that person why?? who you don't know, who you obviously have no intention of listening too, what is going on here?
Adewale, don't leave Indymedia. Me and lots of other people are trying to change things, to stop the arms trade, to bury the multi-nationals - and really trying to do this, to the best of our ability - whether we are in any political party or not.. but as human beings. to get justice.
and we won't give up. Post stuff. More people than those who will always indulge in stupid factional fighting read this. Don't go.

heather
mail e-mail: roserat@btinternet.com

look at Ronnie

08.02.2002 22:06

He's aggressive in print and swears a lot. Is opposed to centralising leftism and has a thing about loonies. Perhaps he fears looniness for himself. I'm opposed to centralising tendencies, particularly swear a lot when pissed up in the pub. Have mild outbreaks of aggression at inopportune times.I'm pretty loony in my spare time. We're brothers under the skin.And so is Adewale whose got his mind on serious things beyond mental masturbation. So where are all the problems arising?

Ronnie

08.02.2002 22:15

I didn't think you meant me, but I had a go at you anyway. Because of a previous meeting. Your qualification does make me feel a little guilty, but I think I ended by saying you're the same as me so we're ok. OK?

I think I know him!

08.02.2002 22:20

Hey Ronnie. Are you the guy in the black overcoat who spoke at the anti-war meeting in Warrington a while back? A postman, right? We went to the pub after the meeting ended.

Dave C.

defining dissent

08.02.2002 22:27

well, i'm an anarchist and i ain't jealous. The kind of meetings, actions and general beurocratic structure that the SWP has, I don't want. Nor do I want their vision of the future. And that's why I think that although this constant bickering can seem frustrating and self-defeating, it is important to define our differences, to define the diversity of dissent. Historically, the red left has compromised so many revolutionary situations (Spain, France etc.) that it is not good enough to talk about unity, about fighting against the same things. many right wing groups are 'anti-capitalist', many fascist groups embrace the concerns of the enivironmentalists.
Oh, and as for questionof militancy, demonstrating in the rain and getting bashed by the cops, thats exactly one of the reasons why we have these discussions. SWP members will stand fro hours in the rain recruiting members, but are happily herded along police prescribed protest routes and turn away from any form of direct confrontation. Which is not to say that fighting the cops will bring about a revolution, but it is symptomatic of their whole attitude. They haven't got anything except numbers, and they only get those through a recruitment campaign that any marketing company would be proud of. People like joining the SWP and going on these peaceful marches because it absolves them of the responsibilty for doing anything else, anything that might cause them to question their own lifestyles and attitudes, or cause any trouble to the apparatus of the state. someone told me recently that we should stop fighting amongst ourselves. whoever ourselves is, the SWP definately isn't it. If there is a revolutionary situation, they will sell it out like the communists always have. and that's why i will always argue against them. that is if like tonight i have nothing better to do.

pesky kid

dh, no problem. And Dave I know you!

08.02.2002 22:35

I'll kill two trots (oops! I meant birds) with one stone. dh, don't feel guilty. I don't remember meeting you but it couldn't have been too bad or I would have done so. I don't worry about looniness as I'll be able to write conspiracy theories when I become one.
Dave, yes. Guilty as charged. It was me at the meeting. I do remember you. Your the lad from Manchester. Not a bad meeting for such short notice I thought. A pity our quaker friends couldn't have joined us for a pint. No doubt we will meet again. BTW 1-0! Danny Murphy ;-)

Ronnie.

Just have to say this....

08.02.2002 22:44

Look I am not an apologist for any party but this is unfair. "SWP members will stand happily in the rain - no direct confrontation" Not true, facts are facts...
It may have been a long time ago relatively but...
Blair Peach, cracked on the head with a truncheon died,
and today I know people, SWP members, who have been beaten up, arrested, whatever..
maybe we should stop seeing people who are activists as whatever suits our 'amused, ironic or angry' political selves and see people in the light of what they actually do.

heather

Soggy Wanker's Party

08.02.2002 23:46

Heather, you're obviously a nice, well-intentioned, simple-minded soul and I don't want to see you turn into a swooper. This is what you need to know about them: they don't believe in democracy. If you fight a succesful revolution by their side then they'll turn around and kill you later.

HarHar

and finally ......

08.02.2002 23:48

re PeskyKid.. redefining differences is important as is diversity of dissent. I would hate to see a movement agreeing. but the dissent should make us stonger not weaker (we can't MAKE it be so - 'make' is a hard word, should be questioned and guarded against but not, by reflex, dismissed without question - because reflexes are also dangerous) And you are right, rightwing and facist groups are good at embracing social and ecological concerns - facists in suits are always more plausible but isn't that exactly why we need to unite, not divide. You say its not good enought to talk about unity but they (rightwing facists) will do exactly that and if we are divided, they may win. How useful will our arguments make us then when people get bricks through windows, when kids get stabbed? Just a thought, because this is not just internet wanking, people read it.

heather

Rich Moth from SOAS

08.02.2002 23:56

I agree with Heather. I know Rich Moth from the School of Oriental and African Studies. He was one of the comrades who got arrested and beaten by the fascist Italian police - and he is SWP. He also got penned in with me during MayDay2000 in Trafalgar Square and was with all the anarchist and Turkish comrades, repressed by the British police state. We were all faced with the same enemy, regardless of ideology.

Rich is one of the most decent guys I have ever met in the British left: sincere, honest, kind, very clever and totally dedicated. I don't like the SWP's centralism, but I like these SWP comrades who have been at the receiving end of fascism and are still prepared to continue the fight. Don't dismiss SWP comrades so easily. They might not share your ideology, but that doesn't mean they are bad or that they are sell-outs.

I have seen the Shell-sponsored death squads in Nigeria in action and I can tell you that the SWP, for all its faults and all its high-horse morality, is not the enemy. There are big evils in this world that you comfortable British don't understand and cannot comprehend. There are people trained by the British army in Sierra Leone who are raping young girls and chopping off the limbs of young men. In the Congo, more than three million died and the people fight were armed by the British arms trade. There are crimes committed right now by British allies that would make you vomit.

Trying to undermine the SWP will change nothing. Direct your energies to better things and work for solidarity. That is all I have to say.

Adewale

Thanks Dad

09.02.2002 00:11

for the concern

heather

Thanks Harhar (or is that Dad?)

09.02.2002 00:17

but even a simple minded soul can see that being patronising is just another form of attempted censorship.

heather

Thanks Harhar (or should that be Dad)

09.02.2002 00:52

for the concern. As a simple-minded soul I can only find the words to remind you that patronising people is not always useful.

heather

dammit

09.02.2002 01:18

i knew saying one thing three times was bad. it was an accident. sorry dad. and i did write it out in my best handwriting first...

heather

The SWP and colonic irrigation

09.02.2002 09:57

Keeping on moaning about the SWP is like colonic irrigation - stirs the shit, might make you feel like you are doing something for the health of 'the movement' ,but a bod would be much better expending energy on focusing on what you are putting in your mouth to eat than the shit that comes out at the other end. - that is what are those of us that don't agree with the SWP doing to create and sustain alternatives

Think about what you need to nourish your own and others political fire, action, dreaming, energy rather than always thinking about what fucks it up.

....and don't the SWP just fuck it up. For the last three years in my town post-seattle we have tried to be nice to them and work with them but they have continually acted in a way that has pissed actvitists off and puts off people that don't like the hard sell 'join us, join us' . They turn up on mass to meetings to makes sure it votes there way then once it had the troops aren't seen again and others are left to do the work.

BUT, so what... the SWP's behaviour is becoming increasingly out of order because they are fucked,

Whatever they may tell you about people joining - they are shrinking. Unfortunately the pharoahs at the top of SWP pyramid have got very large egos and as their organisation diminishes in size we can expect more ego-massaging through actions that serve to let the world know how very very very important the SWP are...

the pyramid building serfs at the bottom (many of whom are aboslutely wonderful committed people passionate about changing the world), cling to THE PARTY, because it is for them 'the heart in a heartless world, the sigh of the members, the opium of the cadre' (apologies to Karl Marx), they cling to THE PARTY (always to be spoken as if it was in capital letters) becuase according to THE LEADERSHIP, THE PARTY is the most important group of people on this entire planet, if you are A MEMBER OF THE PARTY then that must mean you are one of the most important people on this planet. (some wave SWP membership cards, others drive big cars and buy lots of consumer shit, a few wear black masks and hoodies - don't mean all of those three are the same but motivation to do them might be)

...and that is the clue to dealing with them, don't feed their sense of self importance, all the suff about Kronstadt, if they came to power etc is taking them far too seriously

(and of course I am guilty of doing the same by writing this post - but we live in a world of paradox)

Want to undermine the SWP? - don't clutter indymedia, join the party, go on it won't hurt you, lots of other people have and then have left (including myself) buy yourself a red nose, some face paint, do yourself up as a clown and go and down to their paper sales, by all means sell the paper but as you do say to the punters 'I hope you enjoy reading this dogamtic rant, althernatively you could check out indymedia and Schnews for your news and learn to think for yourself' . Then when they to want to expel you from the party for attending branch meetings wearing a combination of pink tutu and leather studded bondage mask, you can tie up their CENTRAL CONTROL COMISSION for weeks. (The central control commission is what kicks out naughty members who don't agre with the Central committee) and remember becuase the SWP is not completely undemocratic you will have the right to appeal to the SWP's annual rally (oops sorry conference) and you will be able to present you case in clown costume or pink tutu. Might not change their politics but you might find it distracts many of them for a while, and who knows a few might get so distracted that they forget why they joined the SWP in the first place and leave.

And it seems to me that given we are shaped a lot by our experiences people who spend their time dogmatically slagging off others beliefs with a I'm right and they're wrong attitude (some anarchos) or snickering at other's beliefs in the comfort of their closed caucuses with a THE PARTY is right and they are wrong attitude (some SWP), should all stop and think that given a different history, different influences, meeting different mates, you could have believed the same as those you depise

In short: don't take them or yourselves so bloody seriously

shit-stirrer

Yes, its that tone of ridicule and contempt

09.02.2002 15:01

I object to most about the SWP. They never, ever, debate with you , but scoff, simper and condescend.
Does that matter ?
Yes. In a country such as Britain, where all ideology is rather hazy and ill-defined , impressions are important, and significantly, the SWP doesnt FEEL right. I dont know what they're trying to achieve, and I guess, neither do they; there's something very adrift about them, and while there's no harm in building support among the unions, the whole point of Marxism is, (or so I thought), to raise the proletariat ABOVE the trade union mentality, hence the founding of the Inernationals.
To be amused at everything is pretty close to hostility, so perhaps the next SWP AGM could have a seminar on politeness to visitors.

Free-range Leftie

Ruminating on this some more

09.02.2002 15:18

I was puzzling over how some articles get many responses and others almost none.
In this case, I think its the title of the piece that pointed out a manifest, sad truth among the SWP membership. Yes, its SAD, but they will never be anything more than part of that essay on the "Decline of Marxism" the author is writing. Now, its been said openly. Its SAD, its like having to admit that your once brilliantly inteelctual father is going down with senile dementia, or your pet dog you grew up with is now limping and about to die, or something. This article has the ring of the fable of "Emperor's New Clothes"; for all the clash of ideologies provoked by the SWP, someone has spotted the flaw. Yes, I used to be alarmed by the SWP, but now I read this, i feel SAD. Genuinely.
PS ::: But this dying family pet will still bite, so be careful !

free-Range Leftie

Depressed

09.02.2002 16:08

I don't have a big problem with the SWP, but they are really depressing. For them, the whole world seems to be bad. I can't buy the Socialist Worker any more because I just feel like hanging myself. It's a humourless, dreary, grimy and sad publication. They reflect a lot about the English mentality, which has lost its sense of humour and creativity. I guess that's why many anarchist groups are a refreshing change. But they are so chaotic that it's a wonder they manage to hold even the excellent Anarchist Bookfair once a year.

Cliff Richard

Wow

09.02.2002 18:21

I'm just amazed that mention of the SWP can stir up such passions. There obviously must be more to them than the sad looking bunch flogging newspapers and muttering into loudhailers who are their public face.

mushroom

clarification

09.02.2002 21:21

heather (sorry, i don't spend all that much time on a computer) of course you're right, there are many great people in SWP and GR, people who have a genuine commitment to changing the world for the better and whose vision is not that far from my own. I should have made that clear at the beginning of my comment and I apologise for any offence caused; any kind of totalising judgement is dangerous (even if its about cops).
I was talking about tectonics rather than topography, the massive ideological differences between my own point of view (both in terms of political theory and strategy) and that of the SWP as a party, as a way of thinking and being. Naturally, individual members will absorb and act out the SWP ideology to varying degrees.
I still stick, though, to my basic point which is a rejection of the assumption (evident in your own post) that the SWP are part of some larger 'we' who are all going in basically the same direction. This is a dangerous assumption that might appear unimportant now, but would, I believe, most likely get people like me imprisoned and killed in any revolution that the SWP managed to co-opt.

pesky kid

you wouldn't let it lie!

11.02.2002 18:04

Not again! Haven't you SWP-bashers got owt else to do?

I'm not waste time trying to persude y'all that we're a Good Thing. Nor even that we're worth working with; those that will will, those that won't won't, there it is.

I'll just leave these thoughts. Over the past few months on IMC the SWP have been accused of being:

full of middle classes AND excluding middle classes

sell-outs to the unions AND having no respect for unions

sharing platforms with reformists AND being too exclusive

racist/sexist AND obsessively PC

apologists for Castro AND too critical of Cuba

being dogged and boring AND lacking long term committment

and now (best of all!)
rigidly dogmatic AND not being proper Trotskyists!

Actually I need to seriously scale down my postings here due to new internet use policy at work :-( so hopefully I'll provoke fewer of these anti-Trot feeding frenzies.

Respect to all the non-sectarians, see ya on the barricades!

And just to piss off the others:

internationalist
Homepage: http://www.swp.org.uk

On the barricades

11.02.2002 18:23

No doubt we will see you on the barricades. We'll have to, or you will be sneaking up behind us and stabbing us in the back which is the usual style of the authoritarian left. I may not agree with much that has been written here over the past couple of days, but I know I wouldn't trust you or your party when push comes to shove.

Pogue Mahone.