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SWP Questions

>>(x)<< | 27.01.2002 17:54

questions regarding the Socialist worker party

Why is it the SWP seem to 'take-over' demonstrations, and always make sure their banners and posters can be seen more than any other group?

Why do SWP members seem to spend most of their time selling papers?

Why does the SWP have its own little 'proxy groups' that tackle different areas such as the ANL and the CND?

Is the SWP a legitamate socialist group or just some intelligence thing run by the government?

Yes.....And why do many people dislike the SWP?

...

>>(x)<<

Comments

Hide the following 27 comments

SWP ???

27.01.2002 18:03

It's cos theyre shit. We don't just hate them for what they are, we hate them for how they are.

Sports Fan.

The SWP wreck everything

27.01.2002 18:55

The SWP wreck every political campaign they ever come into contact with. Their influence is so bad; it involves such things as infiltrating their members into the campaign committees so that they end up organizing them, then when SWP High Command decide the opportunity for sellling papers has passed, these people pull out and the campaigns tend to collapse. SWP paper sellers on demonstrations put ordinary members of the public off getting involved. They hand out hundreds of those placard things on demos, making it look like the demo is organized by them. They run these front groups like ANL and their latest flagship of convenience 'Globalise Resistance'.

I don't know what the answer is, but part of it involves making sure that the leaflet 'Vanpire alert' is always handed out whenever they are around, making sure that people DON'T buy their papers (because that is the only reason they are there - that and recruiting) and just generally giving them the bums rush at any and every opportunity.

The SWP have done more to damage radicalism over the years than anything else I can think of at the moment. How many once good activists joined them, only to later become burned out and cynical. They innoculate people against radical politics. They are a plague. If they aren't actually part of the state they might as well be.

Steve Booth
Green Anarchist

Steve Booth
mail e-mail: grandlaf@lineone.net

One simple question for a few contributors...

27.01.2002 19:10

I would like to ask Heather, NJ Cartwright, Internationalist, A Nonny Mouse, Birchill are any of you members of a political party or involved with the Socialist Alliance?
Of course you do not have to answer, but just wondering that's all.

William Godwin

He's a cliffhanger.

27.01.2002 19:21

Internationalist is a cliffhanger.

Sports Fan.

A good use of time

27.01.2002 19:28

Don't you people have anything better to do than write crap like this? I thought Indymedia was supposed to be somewhere to get the news that the capitalists don't want us to see, but unfortunately the real vampires seem determined to hijack it with their silly prejudices and generally make no positive contribution to anything.

Ben Neal

Are you, or have you ever been...

27.01.2002 19:29

Interesting question, in its way; should people make their political affiliations explicit when posting? Do others have the right to request that they do? Or should people's arguments stand and fall on their own merits?

For what its worth; no, I'm not an SWP member; in fact I fully agree with a lot of what's been said here about their obsession with paper selling and their "vampire" tendencies.

I'm actually an independent socialist with libertarian leanings, but in a way- so what? Does that make anything I've written before more or less right or wrong?

And shouldn't we on the left spend less time slagging off the SWP for being a kind of radical Starbucks, and try to spend a bit more time trying to organise ourselves as effectively as they do? Because love 'em or hate 'em they ARE organised.

Julie Burchill

Organised

27.01.2002 19:43

They certainly are organised. It would be nice to be able to campaign on issues without them coming along and trying to take over, or using it to recruit members to their crappy political sect.
Apparently, were supposed to consider them as part of the anti-capitalist movement. I don't. They just want to replace one set of bosses with another so bollocks to them and that bastard Russian midget they worship. Socialist jesuits is all they are. Thank goodness hardly any of them last more than six months in the party before seeing right through the bastards in control.
Whoever it was who said they would thump them if they came on their picket line is right.
By the way, Hitler was also organised.

Sports Fan.

Twotskyists

27.01.2002 20:27

You people are absolutely horrid. Here we are, SWP members, sent down from on high to lead you in the cause of true revolution and all you can do is write nasty things about us. You're ungrateful plebians of the worst order. Daddy once had a butler who was ungrateful and daddy was forced to dismiss him. Daddy went to the same public school as Paul Foot and was also a brother officer in the same regiment. So, we too are Socialist Workers, and as such, we're just like the miners and the dockers in every respect.

Yours,

Tarquin.

SWP Local Organiser. Knightsbridge Branch.

Tarquin Swain-Richards

Interesting questions JB

27.01.2002 21:41

Some interesting questions posed by you too.
If people were to be explicit about their affiliations would they get slagged off or would those who did'nt want to read their contributions simply bypass them? Would they get some grudging *respect* for being honest?
As to requesting, that's a yes. People can ask whatever they want to, at least on IMC they can.

The reason I asked the simple question was because reading some of the postings this year it keeps coming to mind. I tend to trust my instincts, and the bullshit detector has been going off every time I visit imcuk, and see certain *names*.

That you explain your politics doesn't have any bearing on whether your arguments are right or wrong. But it does shed some light on your motivation for posting them up. And that's really the crux of why I asked. As you said the "vampire" tendencies of the swp are well known, as is their *organising*, and the motives behind it. Hence the need to remind them every so often that we are aware that they are around, and we do not accept their premise that an independent anti-capitalist, anti-war movement needs leading by them or anyone else.

As to organising, well isn't that what IMC and other such mediums are for? Within this movement organisation has always been loose and adhoc, yet we always seem to get (it) together don't we?

William Godwin

What have the SWP ever done for us?

27.01.2002 23:53

I would question one poster's assumption that we should try to be as "organised" as the SWP.
Sure they have shitloads of money and consequently have a few full-timers who tell all the other members what to do. So very few of their members think for themselves, and even if they did, it wouldn't matter as they have no input into the party line. It is completely devoid of any originality, innovation or excitement (and when the revolutionary shit hit the fan and all their leaders get arrested, their members won't have a fuckin clue how to organise themselves...).
Ask yourself, when was the last time the SWP or any trot group organised something that truly inspired people? J18? The Maydays? Seattle? Genoa?
I think not. They were all organised by non-heirarchical groups of co-operating individuals and affinity groups.
That is our strength! We need to preserve our dynamism.
Fancy multi-coloured placards and logoed bibs and flags aren't what change the world.

j

Long Live the SWP

28.01.2002 13:03


I like the SWP because they're so quintessentially English, and so terrified of the undercurrent of racism within their ranks, and also because their now dead guru was obviously a completely mad facist. They are the most entertaining party there is!

ambiguous

seeing as you asked..

28.01.2002 13:49

i post stuff that i find informative and interesting not from any other agenda. and i am not a member of the swp. stupidly thought indymedia was about disseminating information not rehashing the same arguments about the swp.
I am, in fact, a member of the tory party.... right hand woman to their leader whose name currently escapes me.
didn't know there was a questionaire about affiliations to fill in before posting..

heather

a question for william godwin

28.01.2002 14:40

and why is stuff about people in detention, tearing down detention centres, palestine and bushwatching *bullshit*?
ok, I did post once about complaining re bnp on radio but read the comments & took the point.

heather

See my remarks on later article "SWP tries to

28.01.2002 16:30

Hij Beds SA."
I put forward a warning for what I think is a modern recurrence NOT of Bolshevism or Trotskyism but of 'Orthodox Socialism'.
It involves using the names of dead theoreticians via lesser figures who knew them , in order to wind down the party, to perpetuate it for career purposes of the leaders alone.
Marx -Kautsky (The Second International
Lenin - Stalin (The Comintern
Trotsky - Cliff ( SWP

Ex- Student with nothing to do

lots to answer!

28.01.2002 17:15

Phew! I'll try to answer as much as I can!

First off, I am a member of the SWP, and I've never denied or hidden it. I'm proud of what we do and stand for.

Why do we (write and) sell papers? To challenge the ruling ideas put across in mainstream media. To put forward our arguments so people can consider them. Is that wrong?

Why do we 'take over' demos? Any demo we support, we bring along as many folk as we can. Sometimes not many others turn up so it's mostly us. We'd rather it wasn't that way. In fact our favourite demos recently were the big Stop the War marches, where we were a small minority among a diversity of groups.

Why do we hand out placards? Because lots of people like to have a placard on a march, and seem happy to take ours.

Why do we bring banners? To show that the group represented by the banner (local SWP, union branch, whatever) supports this cause.

Why do we work in broad campaigns (Stop the War Coalition, Globalise Resistance, Anti Nazi League, Socialist Alliance)? Because there are lots of people who don't want to join the SWP but are against the war, against fascism etc, and we still want to organise campaigns with them.

Are we run by the state? No. Every group gets accused of that, maybe because it can put people off getting involved?

One final thought for anti-SWP types. Is it worth huffing and puffing at us? Wouldn't it be more productive to get organised in your own way to do your own thing? You seem convinced your approach is better than ours.. so show it in action, not words!

internationalist
- Homepage: http://www.swp.org.uk

What is with these mad debates.

28.01.2002 17:55


I can never understand why any one wants to fall into the trap of sectarian debate and left-wing back biting. It never fails to surprise me when people attack groups like the SWP for various reasons, seeing as though they are seen as the biggest group on the BRITISH LEFT and like to leave it at that. When people just place interesting comments down as "Bullshit" I often ask myself do they react to the article or to their own political insecurity??? Where I come from is Iraq, if people feel they are hard done to here, try preaching over there with a gun against your head! Debate should not be about simply attacking groups and individuals but should lead to a perspective of action.

hussein

A pistol at our heads

28.01.2002 18:30

Hussien, if there is ever a revolution in this country and the bosses of the SWP replace the bosses we have now, how long do you think it would be before the rest of us had guns at our heads? Not too long as the history of both the Russian and the Spanish revolutions show. You trust authoritarian socialists at your peril. Put your faith in a pick-axe and put the pick-axe in a trot.
It's not sectarianism, it's just plain common sense. Don't touch the SWP unless you want the bastards running your lifes. That includes their front groups too.
Never forget, they supported the Ayatollah's revolution, sending the troops into Ireland, and unfailingly vote Labour. If we don't fuck them off now, they will fuck us all once the revolution begins.

Sports Fan.

Its about free speech

28.01.2002 19:22

And as I’ve been thinking about this… Why shouldn’t the swp sell newspapers and recruit people if they want too. If you find it annoying don’t buy the papers, don’t join. Its about free choice, free speech, which is what indymedia is supposed to be about. Not a knocking shop for any faction on the left you don’t agree with. And if you dismiss information because you feel the name of the person is a person who usually posts *bullshit* (in your opinion) does that mean the information is not worth reading? What kind of censorship is that?
In answer to the original comment about the swp that started this debate - I have found the swp in my area co-operative on campaigns. Even if I had not, I would still defend their right to sell newspapers, recruit, argue, whatever, in whatever way they want too. As I would defend anyones right to act. And what other people think of the swp is not the point. it is what you think that matters.

heather

Selling papers

28.01.2002 20:45

If it was just about them selling the left wing equivalent of the Sun, and recruiting their fellow middle class turds we could ignore them. But it's not. It's about them infiltrating genuine campaigns with a view of taking them over. So, I say freeze them out. I'd no more work with them than I'd work with the BNP. We would end up slaves under either, so reject both.

Sports Fan.

SWP shop

28.01.2002 21:29

Is it necessarily "sectarian backbiting"? Isn't it debate? Isn't that one of the things this site's here for? If it's a medium for free speech, as Heather says, people WILL disagree. So someone said something was bullshit- people swear.

So, I want to tell internationalist- who KNOWS I've got mad love for him/her- some of the reasons why I disagree with the SWP's politics/tactics.

So; is it "wrong" that the SWP sells papers? Not as such; but when EVERY event becomes a forum for paper selling, and when activists have nothing to say other than "want to buy a paper", yeah it's a problem. I remember some twat trying to flog me one on the Poll Tax riot, for Christ's sake.

Massed ranks of paper sellers with no other means of communication actually puts people OFF of left-wing politics. I've been active locally for years, but there are local "comrades" I've seen EVERYWHERE who know absolutely fuck all about me; am I gay, straight, do I have kids, what football team do I support etc etc. And that's actually IMPORTANT; who wants to live in a world built by joyless automatons? As Thora Hird said- he who speaks of revolution without understanding what's subversive about love has a corpse in his mouth.

You're in favour of diversity at demos and another events; but an Iranian socialist was recently barred from attending an anti=-war event in Brum for being unashamedly and outspokenly anti-Islamic fundamentalism. The local SWP actively colluded with his exclusion.

You claim to want to work in broad alliances because the SWP wants to work with people who don't want to join the party. But every Monopolise Resistance event I've been to (only two, I'll admit!) ended up with me being asked to explain my reasons for NOT being a party member.

People see the SWP picking up and dropping organisations AND campaigns with every change in the political current. The SWP have acted to ensure that the SA has been sidelined within the Stop the War Coalition. What's that about? Tellingly, no one who's ever asked me if I'd thought about joining the SWP has asked the same about the SA. But no doubt the Alliance will become more of a concern when the next election comes along...

I could go on (fuck it- I HAVE gone on!). But I DO agree with your final point about organisation- just as I don't get Sports Fan's jibe about Hitler being organised; yes, unfortunately he was; and he changed the world. There are different TYPES of organisation, no?

Julie Burchill

Some answers for Heather

29.01.2002 15:56

Hi Heather,
Of course there's no questionnaire about affiliations. As I said I was just wondering, and then exercised my right to freedom of thought and speech, by asking. This actually happens a lot on this site, though maybe not in such a direct way.

I didn't say the articles you posted were *bullshit*,just that my bs detector was going whenever I saw certain *names* attached to articles. Maybe I should have said *alarm bells were ringing* - but then you could have accused me of calling your postings *alarming or alarmist*
Catch-22 :-)

William Godwin

Trotskyite wreckers

29.01.2002 20:31

Why is the SWP disliked?

Because they are:

1) Trotskyite wreckers
2) Labour loving social-democrats
3) Apologists for the 'left' wing of British imperialism
4) The present day equivalent of the renegade Kautsky
5) A party with the imperialist arrogance to lead an 'interntional' with sections in different countries around the world, from probably the most politically backward country.
6) The party that welcomed British troops into the north of Ireland
7) The party that said it was not possible to build a community based resistance to the poll tax because people living in council estates are all drug dealers.
8) The party that opposed striking miners defending themselves and fighting back
9) The party that defends Labour hypocrites from criticism from Left
10) Those who try to mislead any spontaneous resistance into harmless and respectable channels
11) The party that went further than old Trotters and came up with the stupid & reactionary theory of 'state capitalism'
12) An organisation that is completely undemocratic and slavish that will try and try to silence any genuinely revolutionary voice, even going as far as threatening its opponents with calling the police.

I wouldn't mind their paper sellers if what they printed in their paper wasn't such drivel, because I think criticising them just because they have a paper is superficial.
After all we need agitation and propaganda material to oppose the lies of the bourgeoisie

anon

what a coincidence!

30.01.2002 12:53

D'you know, that's just what my nan says; she would join the SWP, except she's concerned that we're crypto-imperialist apologists for the petit-bourgeois vacillations of the renegade Kautsky...

a nonny mouse

eee what a coincidence

30.01.2002 16:45

my nan says that too!!

heather

The problem with authoritarians is..........

31.01.2002 02:35

TROTSKYISM,n. Stalinism deprived of state power. Few in number though fractious, one Trotskyist constitutes a "split"; two constitute a "group"; and three constitute a "movement".


In the Soviet Union..no important political or organisational problem is ever decided by our soviets and other mass organisations, without directives from our party. In this sense, we may say that the dictatorship (of the proletariat) is substantially the dictatorship of the Party..
JOSEF STALIN


question everything
be anarchist

William Godwin

The Kautskyites

01.02.2002 20:15

Well your gran is obviously a good Marxist-Leninist then!

anon

question everything then

02.02.2002 15:51

choose for yourself

heather