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In Defence Of SY

Kevolution | 20.12.2001 18:41

Article answering the various questions that have been asked of Socialist Youth on Indy Media recently.

In Defence of Che (and our use of his image), among other things.

In the past Socialist Youth has come in for huge criticism on Indy Media, from various leftist elements. This is an open letter to all concerned, in which I, as a member of Socialist Youth and in my own capacity, hope will clear things up.
To start with, the most recent comment was from one ‘Che’, asking why we use his image on our Website. Che Guevara, in case you have misread your history, was a Marxist, who believed in Marxism, nothing else. This means he believed in the dialectic and historical materialism. He was a communist before Castro was. Now, we use his image because he was/is a symbol of international socialist struggle. For anyone who is interested in our views on the deformed workers state of Cuba, you should read the CWI pamphlets “Che Guevara – Symbol of Struggle” and “Cuba – Socialism and Democracy.” (Both can be found on our Website  http://www.worldsocialist-cwi.org).
You then ask why, if we support Che Guevara’s violent methods, do we not support the violent methods of the so-called ‘Black Bloc Anarchists’. The answer to this is simple. Have you ever heard the phrase “objective historical circumstances”? What this means is that at the time of the Cuban Revolution in 1957-59 the circumstances were right for the violent overthrow of Batista’s regime. The July 26th Movement enjoyed mass support for their actions, they were fighting a war.
The BB on the other hand, do NOT enjoy mass support for their actions. They have taken it upon themselves to be the violent manifestation of opposition to world capitalism. They have no basis within the working class struggle. If a vote was held among every group involved in the Anti-Capitalist movement, I’m confident that the vast majority would not show support for their actions. Their actions are counter-productive for the movement as a whole; they give the opportunity for the ruling classes and their agents in the world police to unleash repression against the movement. They can call us ‘terrorists’, and use the new Draconian ‘anti-terrorism’ legislation against us. They can break up our demos and beat up at random. They can (and do) call us a violent and programmeless lunatic fringe who don’t believe in democracy only anarchy (and not anarchy in the anarchist sense of the word). Dialectically, they do absolutely nothing for the workers movement.
Ok, so they confront the ‘face of capitalism’ by smashing up banks and McExploiters. But as I asked before; what does this actually achieve? The shop is smashed. The shop re-opens a week later, after losing some minimal profits, and continues to trade. In the meantime, the people who work there may loose a week’s wages. Way to get the workers on your side guys! “But they are confronting capitalism with direct action against its symbols.” So was Osama bin Laden! The attack of Sept 11 served only to set back any kind of workers movement in the U$ and ushered in a new repressive era, which enjoys mass support (as well as mass opposition!) around the world. But hey, it destroyed the two most important symbols of capitalism in the world, so that’s ok yeah? Should we support these attacks? I think not!
“The workers, the workers, the workers. You guys are always going on about the workers!” As I explained before, we are Marxists, and unashamedly so. We believe in the scientific teachings of one Karl Marx (and Engels, Lenin and Trotsky!). “But Marx lived over 100 years ago, how can he still be relevant?” Well you see, Marx dedicated his life to the study of history and he came up with the only science of history that can consistently and accurately explain humankind’s historical development. Now scientists such as Newton and Darwin and Einstein came up with their theories a long time ago. Does this mean that we should stop believing them? Again, I think not. If some crazy Christian fundamentalist tries to tell me that evolution is a lie, that creationism is the true way, I won’t stop believing in evolution because it’s a proven fact, just like Marxism. These are not utopian ideals we just picked out of the sky, they are beliefs rooted in the scientific history of the world. The main teaching of Marxism may be explained in the line from the Communist Manifesto: “The history of all hitherto society, is the history of class struggle.” Marxism correctly explains that in the Capitalist era, the ONLY agent of revolutionary change is the organized working class as they are the majority of the world, and they are the most oppressed sections of society, no matter what country they are in. The ‘enlightened middle class’ may play a role in the development of socialism, but the workers must be to the fore. Now I’m not going to go into a full on rant here, but if you come here to slag off socialism, you must first at least have a basic knowledge of the science that lies behind our beliefs. You call us utopian. Conversely, I would argue, that any programme for the advancement of society that is not socialist is utopian; as the science of history dictates that any such transformation is not possible. This what we, as revolutionary socialists, believe. If you have a problem with that, have your problem, but don’t come here and slag us off for our beliefs. We are 100% open about them, and to criticism, but not to simple slagging because you don’t believe in Marxism. My opposition to the methods of the Black Bloc is qualified; the attacks on Socialist Youth are not. And just for the sake of it, would anyone who has posted messages such as “Viva La Black Bloc” and the like, care to explain to us all what exactly the BB (or even your own) programme for the eradication of capitalism is? We are 100% open about ours (that is not to say we are infallible), so what are yours?
Many will no doubt say: “I don’t know” or “The Anti-Cap movement is everything.” Without a programme, I’m afraid we are lost. The Anti-Cap movement MUST be linked with the wider workers’ struggle, as on its own it is only a tri-monthly get together of people with a basic common aim. The struggle against capitalism must take place every day, on the streets, in the workplace, even in the pub. We cannot change the world with a street party every so often, although don’t get me wrong here, the big demos are essential for the movement as they prove to people that we are not sheep, and to build confidence within the movement. I for one came away from Brussels (my first big demo) with such a feeling of pride and confidence with the movement. As for that infamous weapon; the petition. The petition is not designed to change society, but to register opposition and/or support for something. Petitions give people a voice, albeit a largely ignored voice. And I thought that Evil Gerald article was funny (socialists have a sense of humour too y’know!).
And for people to say that we are “against” all other protesters in the movement, this is wrong. We, well I, am critical of certain elements because I don’t feel their programmes can achieve the change the world requires to lift us from the quagmire created by the capitalist system. This is not to say I hate them or anything like that. In fact some of my best friends are anarchists and reformists, and while we disagree on certain things, the debate is always good and lively and never descends to the level of bitchiness thrown at us on Indy Media. We are all entitled to our beliefs, and I believe that the BB actions are wrong for the whole movement for the reasons outlined above – I am not against smashing up McExploiters on principle, I just think that it is counter-productive for the whole movement.
Comradely,
C, Dearg

Kevolution
- e-mail: thekevolution@yahoo.co.uk
- Homepage: www.socialistyouth.cjb.net

Comments

Hide the following 19 comments

Scientific fact?

20.12.2001 20:49

I don't particularly want to get into an argument here, but I did just want to point out one thing that you wrote about...Marxism as objective scientific fact. Well, no, I'm afraid it's not. It's one particular interpretation of the path of history; in my opinion, it has some true facets and some more dubious ones, like most philosophies. To simply state that its a 'fact' is just as bad as a Christian or Muslim fundamentalist stating their utter belief in their worldview over any other. Is Das Kapital infallible? Is the Bible? If there is one thing we should be learning as we step into the 21st century it is that no fallible human being has all the answers. Marx wasn't God, and therefore you're going to have to accept that he also was wrong on some things. All idols turn out to have feet of clay.

Don't get me wrong...by all means read Marx, and try to follow the aspects of his philosophy that you agree with. If you happen to agree with every little bit, then good on you...but PLEASE don't just accept dogma. That is the human trait that has gotten us into trouble time and time and time again. Use your own brain, and when you've made up your mind....still keep it open, because other people just might have something interesting left to say.

Cheers,

Matt

Matt S


SY

21.12.2001 01:25

how come the Socialist Party/Youth don't get as hard a time on Indymedia as the SWP/IS? I ask as a youngster with no knowledge of sectarnism in the left movement over the years. Please answer.

hmm


dumbass icepick heads

21.12.2001 05:20

the Socialist Youth are part of the Socialist Party (ex-Militant) who disgraced themselves after the Poll Tax Riot by offering to give up the rioters to the pigs. seems they're up to similar shit re the Black Bloc. the connection is that as the self-declared vanguard of the working class (would the real Vanguard please stand up?) they are naturally opposed to proletarians launching unmediated attacks on capital.

the Black Bloc is a pretty incoherent group but they have been fairly crucial to the success of the summit sieges so far. if it was up to the icepick heads the movement would be the same old boring paper-selling, chanting and speechifying like most demos.

some prole


Nice rant

21.12.2001 12:03

Actually militant (the sp)in the UK was instrumental in the poll tax protests during the 80's (if thats what you are talking about)

Secondly how can you say the following about the black block:

"have been fairly crucial to the success of the summit sieges so far"

How? So let me get this straight trashing working class areas is now a success? Buring a McDonalds is going to destroy capitalism? GROW UP...Thats a very stupid view. There is no success in destroying a fucking restaurant and espically a working class area. Not only does it alienate people it drives people toward the nice image that capitalism paints of itself, and away from our cause which is anti capitalism.

You say that if we had our way all we would do is have speeches and demos, how may I ask to you propose to stimulate the working class into action and revolution against capitalism? Do you think that they will just wake up some day and say "this is wrong im gonna destroy this system" THAT ISNT GOING TO HAPPEN.

James Larkin (irish socialist) once proclaimed "go spread the gospel of discontent" Well thats what we in SY are trying to do. We are working to show the people there is an alternative, and that the left isnt composed of HOODLUMS and HOOLIGANS like in the black block who destroy everything thats a shop hence painting a very bad image of the left.

Finally it isnt the Blackblock who have been successful at these sieges it has been the peaceful protests, the peaceful protests have shown the world that the LEFT will stand somewhat united in the face of police aggression and capitalist explotation. The peaceful protests were the only success of the anti capitalist sieges of summits.

Shane
- Homepage: http://www.socialistyouth.cjb.net


yeah right

21.12.2001 16:47

if it wasn't for the general visibility and the interest in the "antiglobal" movement brought about by the direct action lot, the SY, SWP and the rest of the alhabet soup of trotskyism wouldn't even have bothered trying to hijack this movement, as they only ever bet on winners when piggybacking to expand their membership and newspaper circulation.

They would still be bleating "lobby the TUC" and "vote labour without illusions" (oh, sorry, that's on mondays and wednesdays, the rest of the days it's "vote socialist party with lots of delusions"), as they were no doubt doing when the events of seattle (victory of the peaceful protesters my ass...) gave new breath to the anticapitalist movement in the west.

P.s. chaps I think the coppers in Argentina need a hand putting down a few hoodlusm and hooligans that give your precious socialist movement a bad name, got your plane ticket yet?

leo pigheadsky


..

21.12.2001 16:53

.

..


Che Guevara and direct action

21.12.2001 18:21

The reason I asked why SY use Che Guevara's image on the website is not because I am ignorant of history, as you suggest, but because I understand the history of the Cuban Revolution somewhat better that you it seems. You appear to view the Marxist left in Cuba as homongenous at the time of the Revolution; this was not the case. The Communist Party of Cuba condemned the action the the guerrillas as adventurist and -like you- thought that a revolution could only take place through a mass uprising when the objective conditions had matured. In contrast to this Che Guevara advocated a more VOLUNTERISTIC conception of revolutionary change! How can you say that Che's vision of Marxian revolutionary change is identical to your ultra-Leninist/Trotskyist vision; the two are not the same at all! The only similarity between the two is the fact that both Che and you were/are influenced by Marxism, yet the two conceptions of revolutionary change are rather different. Che thought that the workers and peasants could be radicalised through armed actions; you, on the contrary, appear to think that revolutionary activists should simply wait for the workers to become radicalised through such 'objective' conditions as an economic crash or inter-imperialist war.
Finally, concerning the labels 'Marxism' and 'anarchism', although I support the actions of the Black Bloc which have taken place at the demonstrations during summits I myself am a libertarian Marxist; so please do not make the crude assumption that the BB tactic is only undertaken and supported by anarchists.

Che's Beret


In reply to leo

21.12.2001 19:32

When did the protests in Argentina become socialist? Am i mistaking something? Is there a mass revolutionary leftist party behind them?

Thirdly I stand by my comments the BB are hooligans, of what benefit is trashing a working class area or street which the working class take pride in....What benefit is there lads? How is it going to destroy capitalism? Can anyone give me an answer?

BY YOUR LOGIG: IF I BURN A MCDONALDS I WILL END CAPITALISM. BY YOUR LOGIC IF I ALIENATE THE WORKING CLASS I WILL END CAPITALISM.

Wake up Lads. The tactics of the BB are not working. Ask anyone one the streets of the mature working class what they think they will support the capitalists against the thugs and hoodlums who are violent.

Your so called direct action trashes an area and who has to clean it up? The working class.

Then who has to clean the mess you are making of the whole Leftist movement? THE TRUE SOCIALISTS....And people like you,the violent romantics (who by the way will be most likely Liberal when a revolution comes)make the job of motivating the Working class extremely difficult.

What is your aim at the sieges: BREAKING POLICE LINES? Again what benefit is that to anyone? Is it going to bring about the change that we all want? NO....GROW UP!

What we fight for is a mass awakening of the working class who will if motivated by a mass workers party rise up against capitalism, and it is the duty of the true socialist to educate the masses on the alternatives to capitalism....Which you are not doing....You are showing people basic bully boy tactics....IF YOU DONT AGREE WITH US WE WILL BURN YOUR BUSINESS'....Hence again the people turn toward capitalism.....

You are a pain in the ARSE.....YOU REALLY ARE.....You are destroying the movement and you dont even know it.

Finally the Cuban revolution has been cited here again and again. Well let me stress this:

Fidel Castros movement was supported by the majority of the people.It was a movement against a dictator who ruthlessly exploited his people..

Now correct me if Im wrong but is Bertie Ahern(irish PM) a dictator? no. Therefore it is a different situation here in ireland than it was in Cuba at the time of the revolution.And if a group of dedicated revolutionaries went out on the streets of dublin trying to oust Ahern do you think they would enjoy support of the population?NO...And that is why the working class needs to be educated by the Left and made Militant in the struggle against capitalism (when i say capitalism i dont mean mcdonalds i MEAN THE WHOLE FUCKING SYSTEM)

So please dont use the Che Guevara/ Cuban Revolution plug because it just doesnt stand: cuba in 1959 was completely different to Ireland in 2001.

P.S. I find it funny that people who slag off SY and the SP and militant before it were never members of the organisation but who claim to be such "great experts."

Grow up lads.....your about as leftist as Ronald McDonald. Even Marx would claim the peaceful protests were the only way and wouldnt alienate the working class.

solidarity*struggle*socialism

shane
- Homepage: http://www.socialistyouth.cjb.net


Direct action

21.12.2001 20:55

Without militant direct action this anti-capitalist movement everyone keeps talking about would not exist. This movement is built on direct action. If we gave up disrupting summits then the movement would collapse. The reason for this? Because we have yet to lay down roots in the wider community; and to do this we need more militant action by the Black Block (who are not hooligans as Shane suggests but sincere revolutionaries!). It is only through militant voluntaristic confrontational direct action that we can gain the attention of the mass media and through this coverage reach out to a wider auidience -namely oppressed marginal groups and the workers.
I don't know what planet Shane is on but it is not the one I inhabit. Anyone I have talked to recently has only become aware of 'anti-capitalism' through its coverage in the mass media (corporate media) when summits have been disrupted. And these people I refer to do not get in a state about the destruction of McDonalds outlets or police stations etc., but start to question -however basically-the logic of the calitalist system. In other words, I believe that there is a section of the population who are receptive to militant anti-capitalist ideas and action at present (particularly amongst the most oppressed groups -i.e., refugees, youth, ethnic minorites) and that we can draw them into the movement through MILITANT ACTION.
As to the workers, we have the problem of dealing with the question of the labour aristocracy. There is, I think, a strata amongst the working class that has gained a particular standard of living within capitalist society such that they perceive their material interests to be best served by fighting for a bigger piece of the capitaist pie. Whilst this may be the case in the short term in the longer term the privileges of this labour aristocracy may not be sustainable.
Leaving aside this strata of the workers, there are still vast numbers of workers who live a very insecure existence under capitalism -in the industrially advanced world- and it is to these workers that our anti-capitalist message (via the media's coverage of confrontational direct action) may gain increasing support.
Thus confrontational direct action should not be dissmissed as peripheral to the development of the anti-capitalist movement; rather it is CENTRAL to the further development of the movement and ultimately the revolutionary overthrow of capitalism.

Che's Beret


Positive action

21.12.2001 22:59

It's a complicated issue innit? I agree with Leo that the vast majority of anti-cap coverage in the media is generated by the BB, and so they do raise our, thingy, you know, ummm profile. And some open minded people upon hearing these stories might ask someone what went on, what's wrong with capitalism that we want to change it etc. Your actions though, lend us infamy rather than fame, you know? While people may be more aware that the movement exists, they are less aware of the positive acts and ideals of the movement. You make it easier for the media to present us as a bunch of mindless malcontents. I mean, what reaction do you usually get when it comes up that you're an anarchist, or marxist, or whatever genre of anti cap you are? People are usually pretty incredulous that I could be part of such a negative and destructive movement. Unless I have a fair bit of time and the person has the patience to listen, the intelligence to discuss and the open-mindedness to allow their opinions to change, that's what they go away thinking. Of the movement and of me. Good stuff in your opinion?
The militant fringe is just that - a fringe. You are in no way central to the struggle.
I'd also like to make a point to Shane. The thing about people, as a whole, in today's world or whatever, is that they don't believe they can change things (when you ask who will they just go blank), and if they can't see any symptoms they think nothing is wrong. I can guarantee you that the world will not change by people being educated, not when they don't want to know. If we could present them with another way, where the rewards are in keeping with the effort rather than the amount of capital you have, maybe they would switch over, but in general people are not idealists, the first lesson is look after yourself. Based on the fact that there have been organised people against capitalism at least since Marx and, at the moment the largest entities acting outside of capitalism are probably the land communes scattered about Paris, Isreal etc. (and don't try and tell me China is communist in anything but name and totalitarian policing), I don't think [a large enough amount of] people will ever rise up and try to change their system of government for the sake of some other country that that system is ripping off, or for any pure ideal. They will change if and when they can see a benefit to be gained from changing, so there. Cynical? Yes. Realistic? Clearly. We have to give them an option.
And BB, until we can design, work under and thereby prove a system, why should anyone trust us? It's all very well throwing away your battered old walkman once you've got a super dupa portable MP3 player, but until you have something to replace it, better to at least keep listening to music ay?
Think carefully, think hard. What do you want? (Will accept long answers)

Random Andy


Go back to the workers

22.12.2001 18:26

OK, nice of you to let us know where you stand. Sounds just like the version you were 'educated' with at your 'youth' (what a patronising and socialist term) sessions; very much like the SWPs. AFAIK, you appear to side with the enemy - the bourgeoise press (destruction of corporate property is just soooo out of order), the police (lets let them bash us over the head) and traitorous politicians who claim to represent us (vote for them, they won't let us down). How very touching and naieve.

Why don't you go back to the workers like good-little-youth, and let real anti-capitalists get on with the task of creating a new world NOW, not when you deem it to be OK. The anti-capitalist movement is rooted (at least in the UK) in the direct action movement, particularly the ecological parts, and street mobilisations and actions are a variant of RTS style actions. For you to try and take control of the movement is not only infuriating, but a threat to the movement itself. Go away, before you start doing citizens arrests on direct actionists!

Youth Indoctrinator


trot slips of the tongue

22.12.2001 21:15

"When did the protests in Argentina become socialist? Am i mistaking something? Is there a mass revolutionary leftist party behind them? "
(said Shane the Trot)

Other than the fact that the protests in Argentina were a mass working class uprising against capitalist austerity measures that would have put Thatcher to shame, you mean?

But they are not socialist, cause the people were not marching orderly with a photo of Shane the trot's favourite beardy lenininst (whichever) as a banner, and were mostly self organised.

I think I will make a poster with this sign and hang it over my bed, so i can look at it any time i forget how anti worker the trots actually are (beyond the mockney or cockney accents they may affect).

What other proof do we need that the avantgardists hate workers and their self activity, and have no use for them other than as membership fodder? Do we need more proof that they are not enemies of the capitalists but purely envious of them?

"When did the protests in Argentina become socialist? Am i mistaking something? Is there a mass revolutionary leftist party behind them? "

"When did the protests in Argentina become socialist? Am i mistaking something? Is there a mass revolutionary leftist party behind them? "

"When did the protests in Argentina become socialist? Am i mistaking something? Is there a mass revolutionary leftist party behind them? "

(said Shane the Trot, just in case you forgot)

Leo Pigheadsky


Trot slips of the tongue

22.12.2001 21:17

"When did the protests in Argentina become socialist? Am i mistaking something? Is there a mass revolutionary leftist party behind them? "
(said Shane the Trot)

Other than the fact that the protests in Argentina were a mass working class uprising against capitalist austerity measures that would have put Thatcher to shame, you mean?

But they are not socialist, cause the people were not marching orderly with a photo of Shane the trot's favourite beardy lenininst (whichever) as a banner, and were mostly self organised.

I think I will make a poster with this sign and hang it over my bed, so i can look at it any time i forget how anti worker the trots actually are (beyond the mockney or cockney accents they may affect).

What other proof do we need that the avantgardists hate workers and their self activity, and have no use for them other than as membership fodder? Do we need more proof that they are not enemies of the capitalists but purely envious of them?

"When did the protests in Argentina become socialist? Am i mistaking something? Is there a mass revolutionary leftist party behind them? "

"When did the protests in Argentina become socialist? Am i mistaking something? Is there a mass revolutionary leftist party behind them? "

"When did the protests in Argentina become socialist? Am i mistaking something? Is there a mass revolutionary leftist party behind them? "

(said Shane the Trot, just in case you forgot)

Leo Pigheadsky


'indoctrination'

23.12.2001 00:48

Ok, so the protests in Argentina are not 'socialist', but they are working class protests against a totally corrupt regime, and the economic dictatorship that controls it (IMF). BUT, we are seeing a revoutionary situation develop there. However, this will come to nothing as their is no program for change, only severe hatred of the system. The abscence of a revolutinatary party ensures that this unrest will manifest itself in nothing more than an ousting of the current government and a return to power of the Peronists! Way to achieve radical change! A lesson from history can be drawn from the situation in Chile in 1973, where incorrect policies facilitated the rise of Pinochet out of what was a revolutionary situation. Argentina should not be allowed go down the same road (again!)

As for my alleged 'indoctrination', I was NOT recruited into the SY, I recruited myself. I learned Marxism at Uni, beleive it (yes, thats right, BELIEVE!!!), and when i returned to Ireland I looked at the options on the marxist left, and SY/SP basically represent the conclusions i came to independent of any party 'indoctrination' (which by the way is a myth, i have NEVER been 'indoctrinated' by the SP). But obvioulsy I can't speak for other Socialist/Communist parties here.

I have had positions explained to me, which is not exactly ramming it down my throat. We are a democratic party, so please dont talk about us like we are stalinists.
As far as I'm aware, no one who has criticised SP/SY on Indy Media has ever been a member of either organisation, and you don't know what you are talking about.

As for taking over the Anti-Cap movement, while we would obviously like it if all protesters were members of the CWI, its not like we are trying to hijack the movement. We make our contribution, you make yours. We are both free to criticise each other, but please don't spread lies about our organisation. We don't do it about you! If anything, we could accuse you of Stalinist tactics.

One last thing on the Cuban revolution. You seem to be of the opinion that we are a stalinist party, as it was the stalinists who oppposed the revolution (along the trot element in cuba at the period). Neither of these groups are in any way affilated to our organisation. But even if you look at how the cuban revolution was carried, with the revolutionary base in the peasantry, and not among the urban working class, this, along withthe influence of the Comintern ensured the development of a deformed workers state in cuba. this does not mean that I condemn the cuban revolution, but we do point out certain mistakes made during it. The same with the Anti-Cap movement, we are not against it, but we point out certian things which we see as wrong. And as I said, I am not opposed to smashing private property of the capitalists on principle, I just feel it has adverse results for the movement as a whole. can you not understand this simple fact??? would i grass up, or make a citizens arrest on a BBer who i saw attacking a shop or something? Hell no! Jesus, I don't work for the fucking state, I'm just opposed to the methods. The anger is justifiable.

Kevolution
mail e-mail: thekevolution@yahoo.co.uk
- Homepage: www.socialistyouth.cjb.net


time to wake up kev

23.12.2001 01:50

No ones laughing kev. Why is that?

@


Leo Pigheadsky is a dumbass

23.12.2001 10:55

Ok so your either a stalinist or an anarcist or just genererally an asshole.

I agree it is a mass uprising of the working class, but what is behind them? There is no working class party which could take the power lead the transitional process and declare socialism. Instead the people will settle for the same crap. The same peronist type government.

3: you destroyed your argument when you personally "tried" to insult me.

4: Do you even have experience of SY in Ireland?

5: Do you have experience of the SP or militant in both the UK and ireland as a member? Or are you just an outside armchair general?

6: If your a Stalinist you do explain the fact that socialism in one country does work...When it goes against everything marx and lenin ever wrote, e.g. it creates a bureaucracy, and no workers democracy.

7: If an Anarcist i would like to hear how you propose to take the industries into public ownership? How you propose to motivate the people. And what your basic stratagy is?

8: If you have no experience of SY why did you bother coming in here.

9: Why do make presumptions and accusations about us if you indeed have no experience of us. (I cite the evidence that you refered to us "trots" (I prefare the term trotskyist)as mockneys or cockneys which is london by the way, i also cite the evidence that you refered to the Poll tax strikes of the 80s in britain.

Please feel free to answer my questions.

Yours Comradely
Shane

shane
- Homepage: http://www.socialistyouth.cjb.net


Reply to Youth Indoctrinator

23.12.2001 11:09

"real anti capitalists" he says.


Ok So i think ill just run around to my local shopping centre "the square shopping centre" and put my stool through the McDonalds window.

And hell we can then go to Burger King.And have a nice bag chips and burgers WE DONT WANT ANY OF THOSE HAPPY MEALS!

**************NOTE MY SARCASM*****************

By your logic a real anti capitalist is some one who destroys McExploiters and alienates the vast bulk of the working class through accessive violence and bully boy tactics making the job of the REAL SOCIALIST very difficult.

shane a PROUD TROTSKYIST COMMUNIST


To our AngloCentric-Trot irish comrades

24.12.2001 01:19

To our AngloCentric-Trot irish comrades
To our AngloCentric-Trot irish comrades

Within their own terms, Shane and Kevolution are absolutely right in saying the the insurrection(s) in Argentina are not 'socialist'.
Instead they are social rebellions - the great masses of the peoples came onto the streets - took them over, went on strike, -closed their the factories and looted the stores - all without much infliuence or edumacation from the leinnist vanguard.
In the same way, the mobilisation against the supra-State economic development bodies in Europe & North America (EU, WTO, OED,FTAA etc.) are social movements not 'socialist' movements
It seems too me that it's easy for us people living in the overdeveloped and militarily secure(ish) regions of the Northern world to belittle and minalismise (thereby contributing to the marginalisation and exclusion) of our sisters and brothers worldwide by clinging to various outdated dogmas instead of really seeking dialogue.

Other Worlds are Posible
Venceremos
la lucha continua

Has the penny dropped yet?
- Homepage: http://argentina.indymedia.org/


against socialism, for communism

27.12.2001 05:52

here's some random responses to various lame arguments offered by the trots.

'taking industry into public ownership' by this the Trots mean taking it into state ownership. it's the workers state of course with workers cops, prisons, spooks etc. in short the road that led to Kronstadt.

'giving the left a bad name' i'm a communist not a leftist. leftists (ie social democrats, leninists and some anarchos) are the left wing of capital.

'the workers need a party' the Italian left communist Amadeo Bordiga distinguished between the 'formal party' and the 'material party' of the working class. the formal party is the mob with papers, membership cards etc. the material party is simply the sum of all militant proletarians who whether they like it or not (anarchos take note) are in practice the 'vanguard' of the class. unlike Bordiga i'm not much in favour of the formal party. do we need a party to lead the revolution? i doubt it. the Trots take one long ago revolution in Russia and from this deduce that the party is necessary. too bad that the Bolshevik seizure of power led to state run capitalism. no it wasn't a deformed/degenerated/defenestrated/slightly unpleasent workers state.

'Argentina' the revolt got rid of the govt didn't it? of course that's not nearly as good as destroying capital but did most of the participants want that. the Trots engage in their typical voluntarist whining; 'if only our party had been there to show the way to socialism'. well it fucking wasn't and probably for good reasons. parties don't arise just because some middle class wankers sell a lot of papers but because they express the real needs of the proletariat. prole revolts of the last 30 odd years have been mostly free of parties despite the best efforts of the paper sellers.

'activating the working class' this is the typical Leninoid conception of workers as idiots requiring the leadership of whatever sect is currently yapping. in the unlikely event the Trots did get mass support all we'd see would be more paper sellers, more crap speeches at crap demos. the more adding of recruits is of no use if your politics are crap.

'i learnt my Marxism at uni' it's hardly surprising that you learnt bourgeois objectivist Marxism from capital's paid thinkers in the university. for a much better Marxism try Aufheben at www.geocities.com/aufheben2

finally to the Black Bloc. i don't approve of the BB indiscriminately smashing working class areas but has that ever happened? smashing McDs and banks; i don't really care but think fighting the pigs may be more useful. anyway the movement would be much poorer without the BB and much richer without the icepick-heads

some prole