We're simply in a transitional stage. The Mirror got it right for a second time today. It's a what happens next scenario - entrenchment in afghanistan is unlikely to hold our attention for long so can be discounted - let them have their guerilla war again. Maybe the anthrax stuff will lead back to Iraq eventually for some more spectacular stuff against an old enemy. We can only speculate, but the story will only go on and on with increasing speed as the quickening demands.

The problem with this war is that the outcome seems delightful (vile, murderous scum removed from power), and that no one will actually care about the actual outcome (vile, murderous scum installed in power).
The major problem I and, perhaps, most of the peace movement had were the causes behind the war. Western greed. The anti-capitalist movement is the same as the anti-war movement because they are both one and the same. And don't let anyone tell you that war was around long before capitalism, because capitalism is simply the essence of human greed embodied in a 'philosophy'.
This guy really is a wanker, though. These two sentences, especially, ranckled:
"Where American women pilots kill the men who enslave women." (like some backward Yank pilot would care) "Where the world's most indiscriminate bombers are bombed by the world's most accurate ones." (lie, lie, lie. The boys who flew planes into the world trade centre look very discriminating, and accurate too. Not like the cluster bombs and carpet bombing).
How can you make common people see the truth, though. They all just believe the hype from the beeb and the 'left-wing' Grundain.
And, what of the demo on Sunday, now that these liars will pretend the war is over?

all I can do is post the stop the war press release - I hope it answers many of Dan's worries above. But before I do, re Dan's saying the SWP make us look like idiots - that is exactly what they are for! Most of the rank and file may be well-meaning and even do some good stuff on occasion, but SWP is notoriously run by a small unaccountable clique.

In a book called 'Defence of the Realm', it states that some time ago MI5 put 25 people to 'spy' on SWP, and it is rumoured that many are still there, making sure that young activists are recruited and their passions defused, that all demos look like they are SWP dominated and that any new movement has a whole bunch of people involved making meetings dull, actions impotent, and statements that make us all look like idiots. and of course they have the perfect retort to critics of their efforts to take over and defuse any meaningful movement for social change - we are splitters, peoples' front of Judea, who should be putting our efforts into building the movement instead of pointing to those who would subvert it.
hohum.

anyway, here's why the Hitchens and Toynbees of the world are still wrong, much as we may wish they were right!

******

* "This war is still going on and it is still wrong - stop it now!"
* Massive turn-out expected for anti-war demo on Sunday, 18 November
* Assemble 12 noon Hyde Park (Marble Arch end). March to Trafalgar Square for 3pm rally


"The fall of Kabul has only exposed to ever greater scrutiny the hypocrisy, injustice and dangerous ambiguity underlying this war," said a Stop the War Coalition spokesperson today (14 November).

"When the so-called war against terrorism was declared, at no time did its aims include the handing-over of Kabul and other Afghan cities to the warlords of the Northern Alliance.

"This war is still going on and it is still cruel, unjust and counter-productive - stop it now!

"The triumphalism of the pro-war faction in our media is yet further evidence that this war has nothing to do with securing justice for the victims of 11 September in the USA.

"Contrary to claims in some sections of the media, at no time has the anti-war movement in this country supported the Taliban or indeed any other armed faction within Afghanistan. What all these factions have in common - including both the Taliban and Northern Alliance - is their contempt for democracy and human rights and their reliance on sponsorship and weaponry supplied by outside powers.

"What the people of Afghanistan need from us now is food, material assistance and an immediate end to military action. What they do not need is another arrogant carve-up imposed by a super-power.


"The Stop the War Coalition is also gravely alarmed at the indications that some factions in Washington seek the expansion of this war into Iraq. Such a move would have appalling consequences - in loss of human life, in abuses of human rights, and in political instability and social conflict - and we will resist it with all our might.


"We also note that the war is continuing to be used as an excuse by the British government to take away our civil liberties and human rights. Our demonstration on Sunday will also be a reminder to the Blair government that there is massive opposition to these new restrictions - which make a mockery of the values of democracy and tolerance that our government claims to be fighting for.


"We also condemn the US bombing of the al-Jazeera TV offices in Kabul - on the very morning that the US allies in the Northern Alliance moved on the city. We have a right to see what is being done in our name. Reports from Mazar-i-Sharif and elsewhere indicate that there are hundreds of revenge killings being carried out by the US-UK sponsored coalition forces.


"The demonstration organised by the Stop the War Coalition for Sunday 18 November promises to be the largest yet against the US-led miltary action in Afghanistan. People in their millions in Britain are extremely disqueted by this war and that disquiet will be reflected on Sunday."

Notes:


For more information contact: Andrew Murray (chair, Stop the war Coaltion steering committee 0777 3764455 or Lindsey German (convenor, Stop the War Coalition steering committee) 07810 540584

Speakers at Sunday's Stop the War Coalition rally will include:

MPs: Paul Marsden, George Galloway, Jeremy Corbyn, and Alan Simpson.

Journalists: John Pilger, George Monbiot, Germaine Greer, Yvonne Ridley, Tari Ali.

Trades unionists: Bob Crow (RMT Assistant General Secretary), Andy Gilchrist (General Secretary, Fire Brigades Union), Paul Mackney (General Secretary, NATFHE), and Bernard Regan (National Executive, NUT) - all in personal capacity

Peace movement: Bruce Kent, Canon Paul Oestricher, Carol Naughton (chair, CND)

Muslim organisations: Dr Gyasudddin Siddiqui (Muslim Parliament), Aslam Ijaz (London Council of Mosques)

Civil liberties activists: Asad Rehman, Mike Mansfield, Lousie Christian

Plus: Tony Benn, Angela Royal (War on Want), Socialist Alliance, Green Party, Bianca Jagger, John Haylett (editor, Morning Star), Houra Quadir (Scottish Coalition for Justice and Peace), Lindsey German (editor, Socialist Review), Sait Akgul (Fereration of Kurdish Associaitons in UK), Green Party, and a Palestinian speaker.

International guests:

* Ahmad Ben Bella, former president of Algeria and leader of the anti-colonial movement

*Michael Letwin, convenor, New York City Labor Against the War (NB: Michael Letwin is a New York City public sector work and trades unionist who will explain why he and an increasing number of New Yorkers reject the war being made in their names).

* Dr Jonathan Farley, an African-American academic based in Vanderbilt University, Tennessee, currently on a Fulbright Scholarship to Oxford University - he will respond to the accusations made by Chelsea Clinton.

Note: the Rally will assemble at Hyde Park from 12 noon and march to Traflager Square for a rally to commence about 3pm. There will be speeches (and speakers available for media interview) at both ends of the march. At sunset, those demosntrators who wish to will join together for iftar, the ritual breaking of the Ramadan daily fast. (Ramadan begins on the previous day, Saturday, 17 November).

It's just not good enough to 'condemn' all dictators equally. Nobody on the left supports the vile Taliban or OBL but it would be crazy to make some equation between the Taliban (or any of the other regional dictatorships who have fallen foul of the West) on the one hand and US Imperialism on the other. The puny Taliban have not bombed dozens of countries since WWII, funded death squads in C. America and Africa, overthrown democratic or popular governments or used their overwhelming economic power to impose an agenda on the rest of the world. We know that to a great extent the Taliban and others like Sadaam are a creation of the CIA.

Not understanding this would have blunted our anti-war mobilisation. Just look at France where the left has been confused -treating the threat of the US and OBL on an equal level and the anti-war movement is very small.

Seeing the main enemy clearly doesn't mean supporting reactionary forces anywhere. Infact it helps people fighting them. The popular support that Islamists receive is precisely because of the effects of imperialism.

People in the Middle East will have seen a large anti-imperialist element to the anti-war movement in the UK on Al Jazeera TV. They know that many people in the West reject the hypocrisy over 'terrorism' and support them over issues like Palestine, Iraqi sanctions. This boosts the emerging left-wing forces in the region and undercuts the Islamist argument that it is a war of Moslems against the West.

I cant find much to agree with in you post Danniel, firstly the UK anti war movement has been very sucessful in mobilising large numbers of people to meetings and demo's. Like someone above said compare that to the confusion in France where something closer to your position was aplied. Secondly Hitchens is an American based writter who's directing his attack at people like Chomsky and other left academics, who rightly point out that the USA's foreign policy is the biggest threat to world security, not Islamic movements who react against it. Are you seriously saying that Hamas and Hizbolah are fascist movements? Are you seriously saying that we should put them on an equal footing with US or Israeli military terrorism? I think you need steadier nerves and clearer politics.

Lets build for sunday whatever the events in Afghanistan because the struggle aginst imperialism and corperate power is not going away.

I think Daniels role as pro-US propagandist is shown by his blithe assertion that Fidel Castro is a "fascist dictator". Despite 35 years of criminal economic warfare by the US, causing great damage to the economy, and despite the undoubted restrictions placed on the people, Castro is still extremely popular.

If Daniel took a look at how the people of US backed regimes have fared - El Salvador, Guatemala, Chile, Nicaragua, Columbia etc. - he'd see why.

To say that Castro is somehow a hero is to have very confused politics indeed - unless you support an authoritarian state with a secret police, the death penalty, human rights violations and locking up AIDS patients in 'health farms'. Castro, like Al-Qaddafi, is an authoritarian populist. True, he has a health service free on demand and a high quality of education, but so did the Soviet Union. True, he's less bad than Pinochet or other US puppet dictators, but that doesn't make him an idol. Cuba is not a model of the kind of society most libertarian socialists or anarchists want to live in. If you think being anti-capitalist means backing a dodgy regime, then I think you need your head examined. Do you really think that we cannot progress towards a libertarian non-hierarchical society?

As for not condemning the Taliban, are you crazy? These guys, like the Northern Alliance, have murdered, pillaged and raped. Regardless of how atrocious US foreign policy is, there is no justification for the massacre of thousands in the World Trade Centre. By not condemning the religious fanatics, we are being perceived as aligning alongside them. By doing this, we are bound to lose the argument and the moral position. Supporting Afghanistan should not mean supporting the Taliban; supporting Palestine should not mean supporting the fundamentalists in Hamas or the corrupt Authority of Yasser Arafat.

As for Ron's assertion that I am a pro-US propagandist, that's a slur. I've campaigned long and hard against US imperialism, particularly in central america which I have travelled to twice. I've seen for myself the misery in El Salvador and Nicaragua and personally I can't tell the difference between the corrupt party bosses of the FMLN and the FSLN and the corrupt US-backed leadership. He seems to think that offering a critique of where we might be going wrong means to 'wobble'. That's the first step towards silencing those you disagree with. Is this what this movement should become?

If Daniel posts phrases lifted straight from the reactionary rants of the likes of Jesse Helms, i.e. "Castro is a fascist dictator", then I think it's fair comment to say his article comprised pro-US propaganda. It's an inaccurate assertion whose uncritical repetition primarily serves the interests of certain sections of US power. Whatever one may think of the political and social arrangements in Cuba, to describe them as "fascist dictatorship" is to render that term devoid of meaning. Casual use of sloppy language is hardly progress toward the more sophisticated critique Daniel rightly advocates.

Daniel's reply states "To say that Castro is somehow a hero ........". Who said that? I certainly didn't, and neither did I, or anyone else posting, say he was an "idol". What I actually said was that despite US efforts, amongst Cuban's, Castro is still extremely popular.

Ron: I stand by my comments. Castro is an extremely authoritarian dictator. I don't know how you'd judge his popularity since he's virtually banned political opposition in his police state. Jess Helms can safely use this as evidence for supporting his own brand of fascism. I'd prefer to be alongside Amnesty and Human Rights Watch, who condemn any government engaged in human rights abuses, whether it be the US or Cuba. Governments and armies are all on the same side and they are not the same as the side of liberty, justice and equality.