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SWP SWP "played a crucial role in building the London demo" - claim

Uno | 15.10.2001 16:35

Quotes from latest SWP party notes:
"People can see the key role we are playing in the anti-war movement ... The SWP played a crucial role in building the London demo, we were like a red thread throughout the march."

The demonstration was very hard politically. People loved our placards with the Fight US/UK Imperialism slogan.
The SWP played a crucial role in building the London demo, we were like a red thread throughout the march. People were coming up to the SWP stalls thanking us for all the work we had put in to build the demo.
The task now is to
1. Build the 18 November StW demo in London
2. Build local, workplace & college StW groups
3. Go for local actions – picket ministers’ surgeries, hold street meetings etc
3000 Socialist Workers were sold on Saturday’s demo in London plus what was sold on the coaches down. 166 people joined the SWP. 373 Socialist Reviews were sold plus over 1000 Say No To Bush’s War pamphlets.
Everything Is Possible
We need to raise the expectations of what is possible both in terms of the anti-war movement & in building a revolutionary party.
The turnout on Saturday’s demonstrations & at the local meetings shows that we have entered a whole new ballgame. Comrades need to understand the scale of the opposition to the war. We can translate that into the local, workplace & college meetings.
Secondly, we need to raise expectations about how many SWs & our other publications we can sell & how many we can recruit.
Genoa and now the war show the idea that you can walk round the state, as Naomi Klein argued, is a non-starter.
The size of the SWP is key. In France the far left have made opposition to ‘terrorism’ on an equal footing to opposition to the war. That has meant the country with the biggest left in Europe & the biggest Arab community has had the smallest anti-war protests.
It was vital that the SWP argued largely successfully for unity round the simple Stop the War demand and rejected adding on denunciations of terrorism or Islamic fundamentalism.
SWP comrades have taken the lead in getting the workplace, college & school groups up & running.
That centres on building SWP groups. People are joining us with expectations we need to meet. They need to be pulled into activity immediately. That means they need to be part of functioning SWP groups based round workplaces, colleges, localities etc. They need from day one to be part of a weekly SW sale outside a workplace & on a street sale.
It also requires having well organised educationals. In each part of the country (North East, North West, Yorkshire, Midlands, SW & South Wales etc) we will be organising Day Schools for new members.
*Outside anti-war meetings we should make sure SW is sold well. Inside comrades should go round with the paper talking to people. We should encourage affiliated organisations like the Green Party & ourselves to have a stall.
*At every anti-war meeting or protest there should be a recruitment team.
*Organise caucuses before big anti-war meetings where we go through how we recruit, where we organise sales plus interventions. Discuss what arguments we need to address.

Socialist Worker Appeal
The respect Socialist Worker has was evident from Saturday’s demo. People can see the key role we are playing in the anti-war movement. They can see the posters, placards & stickers we are producing. You could see them in the marvellous pictures in The Observer & Sunday Mirror.
The only funding for SW comes from its readers & supporters. Just the material we produced in the build up to Saturday’s demo plus the placards & stickers cost several thousand pounds.
We need to encourage as many people as possible to donate to the SW Appeal.
*Every comrade should be asked to donate 2 days wages
*Every comrade should collect at work or in college
*Organise workplace collections from the outside (leaflet in advance to say when the collection is happening & select pay day).
So far £90,400 has been raised.

Brussels - 13/14 December
Anger against the neo liberals has not gone away because of the war. The demonstrations against the Brussels EU summit on 13/14 December are gaining strength. The Trade Union demo on Thursday 13 is going to be big. It’s called by the European Trade Union Federation, it’s backed by the TUC, & the French CGT say they are bringing 10,000 people! Protests on the 14 have been called by the left & look like getting NGO support. There will be anti war contingents on the demos.
Globalise Resistance is organising some coaches for London which will be travelling overnight on Wednesday 12 & returning Friday night. Contact them to book up (price being negotiated).
Get your union branch to pay for a delegation now and start collecting names & money to go.
Sign up sheet & a model resolution on the GR website (www.resist.org.uk)

Uno
- e-mail: uno@union.org.za

Comments

Hide the following 35 comments

Don't scare the extremists

15.10.2001 16:55

This has got to be one of the most arrogant SWP notes I have seen. Not only does it dismiss the role of the CND and the Green Party in organising the demonstration, which was originally about Star Wars II, it reveals that the SWP fascist leadership refuses to denounce the religious extremists, in fear that it could prove divisive. What the fuck? Who would want unity with a bunch of nutters who support suicide bombers who drive planes into buildings and massacre people in their thousands? It looks as if the leadership is taking the same sides as Osama sympathisers. How revolutionary! In my mind, there is no difference between the terrorists in Afghanistan and the terrorists in the Pentagon. I want peace and socialism and the defeat of all terrorists and governments.

Uno
mail e-mail: uno@union.org.za


well

15.10.2001 17:00

half the people on these marhces dont even know who the SWP are.. most ppl dont even about a few of there policies, whats the harm in letting some ppl carry a banner with SWP as long as it is promoting that anti war msg?

wonko the sane


Dear Uno

15.10.2001 17:16

Dear Uno

You don't agree with what the SWP are saying that's fine- to label us facists isn't.One of the main reasons that i'm an anti-facist is that i've got a Grandfather who assisted with liberating the concentration camps.

For the record the SWP line is not to condone those who carried out the attacks of September and Bin Laden but to oppose the capitalism system that resulted in people feeling the need to carry out such actions.

Also all the anti-war demos and meetings that i've been to have been a broad coalition in which the SWP have acknowledged others differing viewpoints.


Here's to the revolution!

Claire the Librarian

Claire the LIbrarian
mail e-mail: clairenatashya@hotmail.com


Uno it makes sense

15.10.2001 17:56

Uno, you are losing it. The SWP have a fascist leadership and are are bunch of nutters yet you claim to be a member. Nice wish-list by the way - "I want peace and socialism and the defeat of all terrorists and governments". Obviously the best way to bring this about is to attack the SWP in tabloid terms.

The SWP has always been absolutely open about what we are trying to do - we want the biggest possible anti-war movement and (shock) the strongest socialist voice within it. Which is why, whether you admit it or not, we worked tirelessly to build the demo in the weeks in the run-up. We have every right to claim that we played a crucial role in building it. (Just for the record, what did you do?)

You also seem to have a rather one-dimensional reading of Party Notes. I could have sworn it says at the top:

1. Build the 18 November StW demo in London
2. Build local, workplace & college StW groups
3. Go for local actions – picket ministers’ surgeries, hold street meetings etc

Obviously you wan't be supporting any of this because it's just a cynical attempt to sell papers.

Just off to an anti-war coalition meeting in Hackney where of course I shall harangue CND and the Greens for their lack of involvement in Saturday and drown out everyone else's voice in our mad quest for world domination.

redman


Better Read

15.10.2001 17:56

I remember my time in Brixton. The choice of a read was
1) class war (only available from Atlantic road book shop now expired) 2) private eye, 3) Green anarchist 4) South London Press ........ 383) Home and Garden weekly 384) SWP paper ... it was always terrible read.

anyone remember the "I'm Back in Brixton" campaign ??

old scrotal


comment

15.10.2001 18:53


The SWP are capitalist bastards.

And you tell me THAT isn't ironic.

How many copies did you sell again?

a london protester


My dog has no nose...

15.10.2001 19:14

Dear Claire the LIbrarian,

My grandfather died in a concentration camp... he fell out his watch tower!

Boom! Boom!

And for my next joke:

SWP aren't a bunch of egotisitcial, gobshite, authoritarian inverted snobs only interested in making themselves look bigger than they ever will be!

Take my wife! No take her!!

etc etc etc

Mustermann


The leadership is wrong

15.10.2001 20:45

What was wrong with the SWP notes? Well, they rejected any notion that the anti-war movement is a broad-based coalition, instead portraying it as a SWP action. Well, I was there and there were Greens, Muslims, Anarchists, Pacifists, etc, there and they weren't there because of the SWP. In fact, the SWP was a small contingent. Nothing wrong in the SWP taking part - just that it is so insincere, egotistic and domineering. With the current leadership, it shouldn't be allowed to be formally involved in anything. Claire - could you tell me how the leadership actually consults with members on tactics?

Why is the leadership fascist? No, they aren't racist, but it is unaccountable, dictatorial and gives a shit about ordinary members. We aren't even allowed to discuss the internal party structure. I have and have been shouted down. Claire - could you tell me the last time the SWP membership were allowed to choose the ruling executive? Could you also tell us all who is in the executive and how they were appointed?

As regards the Stop the War Coalition, why is it that some non-SWPers are being put off involvement whenever the SWP crams meetings with their own supporters, basically to hijack it? Don't tell me this isn't a tactic, because this is precisely what my local branch has ordered us to do.

As for attacking people 'in tabloid terms', well, the Socialist Worker would know about that. We've seen the way it has tried vilified many groups within the anti-capitalist movement.

Uno
mail e-mail: uno@union.org.za


Cheers Uno

15.10.2001 22:34

Thanks Uno, these SWP communiques have given me a good laugh. It's generally the sort of stuff you suspect goes on, but it's funny to have it confirmed.
Interesting to read that:

"*At every anti-war meeting or protest there should be a recruitment team."
Really? I thought it was all about stopping the bombings...

"They need from day one to be part of a weekly SW sale outside a workplace & on a street sale. "
So, what if they don't want to sell papers? What if they disagree with the analysis this week? What if, god forbid, they'd rather do some direct action?

"Every comrade should be asked to donate 2 days wages"
Like many other people, this 'comrade' (for fucks sake...) has sunk some of his own money into stuff, but because I wanted to, not because I was told to. Plus this has been stuff I have some personal input in.

I know we'll get the inevitable cries of sectarianism, and to be honest I mainly ignore the SWP, but for fucks sake, these people are _not_ on my side. If they ever seized power I'd be as against them as I am the current system. Come to think of it, if they seized power I'd be fucked. Thank god their 'vote labour' strategy doesn't seem to be working. Plus the whole Globalise Resistance thing really is asking for it.

Rupert Marsh


Who are you Kidding

15.10.2001 23:21

Redman Said
The SWP has always been absolutely open about what we are trying to do - we want the biggest possible anti-war movement and (shock) the strongest socialist voice within it. Which is why, whether you admit it or not, we worked tirelessly to build the demo in the weeks in the run-up. We have every right to claim that we played a crucial role in building it.

We've seen the last two weeks party notes. Your interested in building the SWP not building biggest possible anti-war movement. (Their is a difference be honest)


Your tirelessly work could and should be done with the rest of us, but your so use to just pushing through what the dove from above says in party notes that you exclude large numbers from getting involved.

But that doesn't matter as long as you have made some short term gains. Sell your papers, recruite and piss the rest of us off.

Jim


SWP discuss organising SWP in memo - SHOCK

16.10.2001 09:16

The point of these notes are not to pass on the experience of the rest of the party to the whole membership. Hence it is a bit internal. Why are you all so surprised?

You say you base you opinions on the last two weeks issues of Party Notes. But they are only "Extracts". In fact they miss out the bits that talk about building in colleges, or the Oldham festival etc.

Obviously "Uno" only wants people to see the internal discussion bit. It's more juicy for the people who would rather talk about the SWP then talk to real people about politics.

Of course SWP Party Notes talk about how the SWP should be organising, and operating. That's because they are party notes for the party.

You can get the more wider political discussion in the paper. That's because it's a newspaper intended for everyone else.

www.socialistworker.co.uk if you don't want to pay 50p.

Just thought that pointing out some of the more obvious things would help.

Martin E

Martin Empson
- Homepage: www.socialistworker.co.uk


Why the notes are edited

16.10.2001 10:16

To Martin E:

1. A SWP internal document can show everyone what the motives of the SWP are, and so it is vital for the anti-capitalist movement as a whole to know what the party leadership is up to. Many people have written to me thanking me for the information. Hopefully, it will shift the SWP into a less dogmatic and domineering stance in its engagement in other campaigns, thereby increasing unity among those resisting capitalism. At least I appear to have rattled some of those in the (unelected) party leadership.

2. You assert that I am editing the party notes just to make the party look bad. I was asked by the SWP to edit out some of the information in the party notes so as to exclude the names of party members and protect them from potential attacks by Nazis and the state. I agreed to this. So why chastise me now?

Uno
mail e-mail: uno@union.org.za


This is getting juicey!

16.10.2001 10:44

Well i'm totally confused. Uno are you a member of the SWP? IF so i'm confused that you say you area member but leak party notes on the internet and attack the party. Mind you it's pretty shocking stuff. I knew the SWP were a bit power crazy but this is a bit sad. It must be said that the reason why the SWP fail to grow into a mass party is that they refuse members the chance to choose their leaders, or formulate their policy. NO ONE FROM THE SWP HAS ANSWRED THE QUESTIONS POSED BY A PREVIOUS CONTRIBUTER

1) WHO IS ON THE EXECUTIVE OF THE SWP AND HOW AND BY WHOM ARE THEY SELECTED>

2) CAN ORDINARY MEMBERS RAISE RESOLUTIONS AND VOTE ON SWP POLICY?

I doubt i'll get an answer on this.

As a member of the socialist alliance i truly hope that the SWP will not try to impose it's will on what could be a great new force in left politics in this country. As i said in a previous debate, if it does this and tries to impose it's bullshit 'democratic centralist' leadership then the SA will fail.

Griersoncat
- Homepage: www.socialistalliance.net


SWP members - rise up against your leaders!

16.10.2001 10:58

The hope of this movement has been the invention of a new kind of politics, radical left, but creating a broad based, non hierarchical diverse movement. Leaving behind the worst of the old left. Where was the SWP in Seattle, which they go on about as if they invented? Nowheresville. They haven't got a fucking clue what this new political movement is about. They stick up Zapistas everywhere but ignore all the stuff about dispersing rather than seizing power. They want power for themselves. If they truly want to be a strand of this political movement, which has as its core values direct democracy, diversity, ecology, autonomy, and a totally different approach to power, then the first thing they need to do is dissolve the power structures of the SWP. Let it be run by their members.

And everyone who isn't in the SWP - what the fuck are we doing? Let's get our shit together so there isn't just one dominant voice monopolising resistance.

Ramona


The SWP do always appear to be Middle Class

16.10.2001 11:03

A question, and one posed with complete honesty.

Why are the SWP obssesed with student politics when so many students are from the bourgeosie including many sswp members.

Are any of the SWP actually working class

Do you pay your organisers the minimum wage or is the rumour true that you top up their dole.

Please send replies on a sae including 3 days wages as a donation to the fighting fund.

Griersoncat
- Homepage: www.socialistalliance.net


Why I'm leaking SWP memos

16.10.2001 11:58

In response to Griersoncat: yes, I am an SWP member. I joined at the Marxism 2000 conference because I saw the SWP as sharing my ideas on politics. I felt that the big protests - J18, N30, MD2K - were not enough in themselves and were shambolic. I wanted to be part of a movement which was ongoing and didn't place all emphasis on one-off big demonstrations.

What I found was something quite different: a bullying, unelected hierarchy which demanded more and more money and time from its members, but resisted any form of criticism or internal debate. Instead of encouraging debate and giving something to the broad anti-capitalist movement, the leadership operates a politics of conquest - dominating and taking over any campaign that might allow it to 'Recruit! Sell!'.

You might say that I should leave if I don't like it, but I don't want to give up right now. It is essential to the broader movement to influence and change SWP tactics and internal organisation, which is the party's main problem - and indeed a problem for those campaigns the leadership tries to exploit. That doesn't mean changing the Marxist philosophy of the party, which I adhere to although I don't share the leadership's antipathy towards anarchists.

I still think the SWP has a role to play, if it gets its act together. The best way I can contribute to this is through the leaking of SWP memos, which expose the party's internal workings to open scrutiny. Perhaps if the party leadership took note of how people react to its own words and manoeuvers, it might budge a bit and embrace a more non-hierarchical and democratic form of organisation.

Uno
mail e-mail: uno@union.org.za


some answers

16.10.2001 12:01

Why don't we 'denounce' Islam, at least in its fundamentalist varieties? Because that plays into the anti-Muslim agenda being promoted in the mainstream media, and obscures the far more urgent anti-war message.

Doesn't selling papers make us capitalists? Well, ideally we'd love to give the paper away free. But we print and distribute thousands of copies every week, and that costs; and we have no rich corporate backers. Hence 50p a copy.

Do we ignore the contributions of other groups to the anti-war movement? No; if you read SW you'll find every report on anti-war activity emphasises diversity. 'Party Notes' focuses on the SWP because it's an internal bulletin; that's what it's for!

Do we 'cram' anti-war meetings? Well, we encourage our members to attend them; is that wrong?

Do we try to recruit people to the SWP? Yes, of course we do. And to be honest, most people seem able to say yea or nay without feeling they've been grievously oppressed.

Do we have a say in policy and elect the Central Committee? Yes; all SWP policy is made and the CC elected at our national conference, at which all branches are represented and any member can put in a motion.

Are any of us working class? Well, I work for the local council and I'm a union steward; but I used to be a student. Perhaps you can enlighten me whether I'm a true prole or a middle-class enemy.

Finally, are we fascists? Read Claire's posting. Then read Mustermann's breathtakingly callous and offensive reply. Then try to work out why this particular bit of name-calling winds us up so much. 'Fascist', like 'scab', is not a word to throw around lightly.

Ben Drake
mail e-mail: ben.drake@york.gov.uk
- Homepage: http://www.swp.org.uk


Why I haven't left

16.10.2001 12:03

In response to Griersoncat: yes, I am an SWP member. I joined at the Marxism 2000 conference because I saw the SWP as sharing my ideas on politics. I felt that the big protests - J18, N30, MD2K - were not enough in themselves and were shambolic. I wanted to be part of a movement which was ongoing and didn't place all emphasis on one-off big demonstrations.

What I found was something quite different: a bullying, unelected hierarchy which demanded more and more money and time from its members, but resisted any form of criticism or internal debate. Instead of encouraging debate and giving something to the broad anti-capitalist movement, the leadership operates a politics of conquest - dominating and taking over any campaign that might allow it to 'Recruit! Sell!'.

You might say that I should leave if I don't like it, but I don't want to give up right now. It is essential to the broader movement to influence and change SWP tactics and internal organisation, which is the party's main problem - and indeed a problem for those campaigns the leadership tries to exploit. That doesn't mean changing the Marxist philosophy of the party, which I adhere to although I don't share the leadership's antipathy towards anarchists.

I still think the SWP has a role to play, if it gets its act together. The best way I can contribute to this is through the leaking of SWP memos, which expose the party's internal workings to open scrutiny. Perhaps if the party leadership took note of how people react to its own words and manoeuvers, it might budge a bit and embrace a more non-hierarchical and democratic form of organisation.

Uno
mail e-mail: uno@union.org.za


irony

16.10.2001 12:32

Ben Drake:

Yes my joke was sick; but the sickness was to illustrate the stupidity and sickness of the original post.

My point was to lampoon the poster and not to make light of the victims of oppression.

See my point now?

Oh well, I guess I have to spell it out:

I would see SWP as as big a threat as the NSDAP if I ever though they could rally enough halfwits to their cause.

If you want to change the minds of people like myself, then I suggest you ditch your egotistical "PR savvy", in other words stop trying to hijack public events and hog the limelight.

Then people *may* feel kinf enough to overlook your other childish attributes.

:-)

Mustermann


opportunists

16.10.2001 12:45

Any organization / political movement or popular front, is going to be hijacked by opportunists. They are well organized and effective they use the group name to promote themselves.
It's certain humans nature, and probably the biggest problem facing the anti global movement. How do we restrain these power seeking egoists ? and stop them from taking over and selling us all down the river. Not that I care too much about the SWP, but before we shoot them to bits it would be a good idea to remember 'Divide and Rule brittania' .

'Unite and fight', would be a better strategy .

LB

Luther Blissett


Diatribe against the SWP No 5010

16.10.2001 12:45

This discussion is a load of self-indulgent sectarian codswollap. This is the only Indymedia site that I have come across that parades this kind baloney instead of concentrating on building the piffling left movement that exists in Britain, but that's Brit Anarchists for you. Why do they keep doing it? Well its like dogs pissing on lamp posts, I suppose, to prove that this site is "their" turf. Small-minded, arrogant, macho, posturing, blockheads the lot of them. Give me the SWP any day, warts and all.

Fred
mail e-mail: Fred@fred.com


Eh?

16.10.2001 12:47

Mustermann: how have I been stupid or sick? From your last comments, it appears we agree.

Uno
mail e-mail: uno@union.org.za


Critique of SWP's anti-war tactics

16.10.2001 13:12

If you want to read a critique of the SWP's anti-war tactics, follow the link ...

Mr Ben
- Homepage: http://www.workersliberty.org/publications/readings/2001/swp-afg.html


Here we go again

16.10.2001 13:23

This is all getting rather stale, and very boring for people who visit Indymedia to find out what actions are going on, but since the SWP didn't start these exchanges here's some points from earlier postings.

1) "As for attacking people 'in tabloid terms', well, the Socialist Worker would know about that. We've seen the way it has tried vilified many groups within the anti-capitalist movement."

Could anyone give a single example where Socialist Worker has done this? Or a single thread started here by SWP members attacking anyone else?

2) "The SWP are capitalist bastards... How many copies did you sell again?"

Not very successful capitalist bastards since as anyone who has ever produced such a paper knows you lose money on it. Is the problem that we sell anything at all, or that we sell too many? I could have sworn that I saw anarchist publications on sale on Saturday - is that only permissible if nobody buys them?

3) "They want power for themselves"

Obviously the easiest and quickest way to get power is to be in a small revolutionary organisation rather than, say, the Labour party.

4) "So, what if they don't want to sell papers? What if they disagree with the analysis this week? What if, god forbid, they'd rather do some direct action? ... Like many other people, this 'comrade' (for fucks sake...) has sunk some of his own money into stuff, but because I wanted to, not because I was told to."

Believe it or not, most of us in the SWP actually want to pay money to it. We want to sell papers because we want people to read socialist arguments. Nobody can force us to and nobody does.

There are political differences - some of which as far as some correspondents on here are concerned mean that the SWP is as much the enemy as capitalism is. We don't hold a reciprocal view of them. Would it not be more productive to actually work out what we agree on and try to establish frameworks for cooperation?

redman


damn trot twats!

16.10.2001 13:55

feckin trot twats!

bleedin trot twats!


Monopolise Resistance

16.10.2001 14:14

There's a useful new pamphlet called Monopolise Resistance (link here) from SchNEWS about how the SWP pull back anti-capitalism and support the Labour Party.

I don't agree that arguments between groups is necessarily a 'diversion' from 'the real struggle' - it can be, but when the SWP very quickly try to lead everything and restrict stuff to what they find acceptable, it's difficult to achieve anything without challenging their politics first. They do actively fuck things up for a lot of local groups, by promoting their party at the expense of involving people in real united action (people just stop being involved), and I'm not sure a lot of SWP people understand how damaging that is.

#
- Homepage: http://www.schnews.org.uk/mr.htm


SWP-the debate continues

16.10.2001 15:03

Cheers for the reply Uno i think i understand your point. I myself am a Socialist Alliance member and i hope that this will provide a more open, democratic and accesable socialist organisation and act to eventually unite the dispearte left in the UK. This task however will mean that the SWP must show some political maturity and dump it's many of it's centralist tendancies..including always trying to take everything over and suffering from mass syncophany. As for the jokers and anarchist critics, you do have some good points but i must say that for all it's negative tendancies the SWP do produce a strong paper with something bordering on an acceptable circulation, they also manage to get shit done like organise coaches to Genoa,run a bookshop and publishing house and relentlessly organise over many issues. PERHAPS WE COULD ALL LEARN FROM EACH OTHER AND GET SHIT DONE WHILST NOT BEING AFRAID OF DEMOCRATIC PROCESSES AND INTERNAL CRITICISM.

Griersoncat
- Homepage: www.socialistalliance.net


problems with the discussion

16.10.2001 16:10

While I think there are very real problems with the SWP and other Leninist outfits I also think there are quite a few problems with those involved in the discussion. It seems that far more energy is spent whining about the SWP selling papers then (in their words) is put into 'building an alternative'. The SWP can only get away with peddling their
bizarre version of 'socialism from below' as genuine because they are almost unopposed by any genuine libertarian organisation. There are fragments of such organisations all over the UK, some good, some bad and some indifferent but there is no national co-ordination between them which could
offer an alternative to those (foolishly) impressed by the size of the SWP.

And now a couple of responses to Ben Drake

Ben - "Why don't we 'denounce' Islam, at least in its fundamentalist varieties? Because that plays into the anti-Muslim agenda being promoted in the mainstream media, and obscures the far more urgent anti-war message."

This stupidity that confuses the religion of Islam
with those who belive it to a greater or lesser
extent is all over the left internationally. Islam is a reactionary religion, lots of people from a muslim background argue this and so should the left. BUT we should defend muslims, religious or not from state and right wing repression. Tony Blair seems to have managed to confuse the left into beliving 'defence of muslims' requires 'defence of islam', it does not.

Of course Ben avoids the more fundamental question which is that the SWP stupidly see fundamentalism as anti-imperialist in a progressive sense. The Bolsheviks under Lenin stated off this particular craziness which has led the left in the middle east into suicidal 'critical support' for those who intend to put them up against the wall as soon as they get into power.

Ben" Doesn't selling papers make us capitalists? Well, ideally we'd love to give the paper away free. But we print and distribute thousands of copies every week, and that costs; and we have no rich corporate backers. Hence 50p a copy."

This is a fair point!

Ben "Do we 'cram' anti-war meetings? Well, we encourage our members to attend them; is that wrong?"

Yes when your members are under the obligation to vote
for the party line whether or not they belive it to be correct. And the party line is handed downby your national leadership which is essentially unaccountable, This means a small gang in London are determining the outcome of local meetings all over the country. It is a top down way of organising

Ben "Do we try to recruit people to the SWP? Yes, of course we do. And to be honest, most people seem able to say yea or nay without feeling they've been grievously oppressed."

Well there is nothing wrong with 'recruitment' except that new SWP members are expected to leave their capability for critical thought at the door and 'obey the party leadership'. That's the real problem with these party notes.

BEN "Do we have a say in policy and elect the Central Committee? Yes; all SWP policy is made and the CC elected at our national conference, at which all branches are represented and any member can put in a motion."

BUT you can't actually seek the support of other members for a motion until 6 weeks before the conference. As anyone with the experience of a national organisation will know this makes it almost impossiblel for anyone to pass anything if the leadership oppose it. If trade unions were run in this manner we'd go nuts about the lack of democracy.

Likewise the election of the CC is rigged through the use of a slate system which means the unknown person not only has only 6 weeks to promote themselves for election but has to find a load of other people and the whole lot of them have to run as a slate against the current leadership. Again anyway with any organisational experience will be aware this make a joke out of an election. In any case the CC does not make the key decisions the Political committee does that

Makhno


Paranoia?

16.10.2001 16:29

Uno:

Um, I wasn't referring to you dood!

:-)

Mustermann


Please Just Leave Uno!

16.10.2001 17:41

Please leave the SWP Uno. Go out and do something political. Whatever it is you choose to do, do something!

Aren't you tired of sitting in meetings you don't agree with just so that you can get hold of Party Notes?

A party is made up of people who broadly agree about what needs to be done politically. You're under no obligation to agree with everything and meetings include disscusion (which you pressumably left before, after collecting your copy of P.N.) but it doesn't seem like you agree with the SWP at all.

Party Notes is a brief (hence NOTES) bulletin of what people around the country find has worked best for them -to get people involved in the Anti War movement and other political activities. It is for people who are active socialists who believe in building a socialist party (hence PARTY)If you are not an active socialist who belives in building a socialist party then you should not be in the SWP.

I sincerely doub't that you think you're doing the party a favour, but if you do think that I can assure you you're mistaken. Do you honestly think that the rest of us are so stupid that we're cowed into following instructions that we don't agree with? Everyone else who has disagrements joins in the discussion or leaves.

If you honestly think you're some kind of brave whistle-blower why don't you post your name and the branch that you're in so that we can all thank you.

You? No.


Not paranoid - but they're on to me!

17.10.2001 17:10

Hey, the party is trying to sniff out and find what my real identity is! If their intelligence gathering is good (if the leadership can be said to have intelligence), then I doubt whether I will be sending out the party notes any more. Oh well ... Any other group I can join and upset?

Uno
mail e-mail: uno@union.org.za


UNO ARE YOU A COP ?

18.10.2001 10:12

I must say Uno that despite finding your postings funny and agreeing with you over many issues i must say that the longer this debate goes on the more suspect you become. If your only purpose is to disrupt political parties which it increasingly seems to be then you are a very sad person. Perhaps i misunderstand your point but if you really don't like the SWP which seems to be the case then it seems extremly bizarre that your a member. I'm going to stop participating in this debate because as an SWP member previously said we should be devoting our energies to greater issues than ideological dog fighting whatever our political affiliatons maybe. You were right to post up the SWP notes in the name of openess and democracy but just like the politics of Trotskyism this debate is getting a little bit stale. I have enjoyed the discussion and we will no doubt engage again in the future, until then

PEACE , SOLIDARITY (INCLUDING THE TROTS) AND REVOLUTION

GRIERSONCAT

Griersoncat
- Homepage: www.socialistalliance.net


SWP authoritarianism

18.10.2001 16:38

Hey, how's that for the SWP's stance on internal dissent - if you disobey, then fuck off. I assume the above poster is some party hack since no normal, grassroots member would get upset by simply publicising what the SWP leadership churns out to members every week. Normal members are the party's greatest strength - it's leadership is its worst weakness. The truth is that the leadership, and arrogant individuals like this one, won't accept criticism or the idea that they might have to take a good look at themselves and how their conduct might be counter-productive.
Anyway, comrade, you don't know me and I don't know you. Don't judge my commitment to revolutionary politics, just answer the points I pose. You don't have to do it in this forum - you've got the opportunity to write to me at my e-mail address -  uno@union.org.za

Uno
mail e-mail: uno@union.org.za


No, I'm not a cop

18.10.2001 16:57

To Griersoncat: I'm not a cop and I'm not trying to divide any part of the anti-capitalist or anti-war movements. I want to see my party become democratic and less divisive - how can you call me divisive when you look at the tactics of our unelected party leadership? I also want it to engage in the broader movement in a productive way, rather than with an attitude of conquest and plunder. Publishing the party notes allows the party to open itself up. I've not engaged in some 'fuck the trots' slanging match or portraying members as lice, like some do. But by the reaction of some party hacks, that's the biggest threat to the political committee and the central committee.
I'm not the only one to feel this way. And I've received e-mails from both members and people from outside the party thanking me.

Uno
mail e-mail: uno@union.org.za


What the hell is the matter with Uno?

03.05.2004 21:20

For god sake!

1. If you think we are fascists, then why are you a member.

2. To call us fascists is beyond stupidity. I am not only a member of the SWP, but a member of Unite Against Fascism and the Anti-Nazi League. The SWP is a Marxist organisation, and the first to be sent to concentration camps in Nazi Germany were Marxists. To call everyone you dislike a fascist is imature and typical of people who cannot produce an intelligent, cohesive argument.

3. You cherry-pick parts of the memos to comment on. It is true, the SWP were not the sole organisers of the London march, but they were intergral.

4. The SWP is democratic. All policies and national officials are voted on at the national conference.

5. Your a twat.

Nelson