nice one bookfair people on this reply.
think cairon needs to read some bakunin. he could see the dangers of organised religion and its relationship to the state.
hey, cairon, see bakunin's 'god and the state'.
if anarchism is to succeed we must convince those who preach and practice beliefs under its organised structures that as long as they do, we will never be free, and as long as there's organised religion, there's an opportunity for the state to survive.
anyway, here end'th the lesson.
god bless...

The London Catholic Worker website doesn't mention Anarchism once. There's no way that Catholic Worker belongs at the Anarchist Bookfair. I think this guy is trying it on to get his group publicity and to feed his sense of victimisation.

Just a few clarifications...folks can request my Open Letter regarding "Questions Raised by the London Anarchist BookFair banning the Catholic Worker" by emailing  ciaronx@hotmail.com

*I've checked the LABF website for the full reply to my open letter but can't find it...may be you could list it under "Who's Not Coming"

*Lying is a pretty serious accusation so maybe I'll say you got it wrong when you imply here that we were ever offered a process to "prove" our anarchist credentials.
-We had to chase you folks after sending our 20 quid in for workshop space and not hearing from you - not knowing that we had been blacklisted/banned/censored.
Your email response to this inquiry was
"Your booking created much discussion (ed. a discussion we were never and should have been a part of!). We talked with various groups and there was a consensus for excluding you on the grounds of not being anarchist...."

So it was a unilateral censoring/exclusion...at least when the state puts you on trial you get a chance to present a defense to accusations. Your lynch mob justice even makes the lib-dem judicial process look progressive.

So you have made a misrepresentation in the above letter...a long with the big one on you homepage that the bookfair "reflects the full range of anarchist groups, publishers and activity"...well apparently it doesn't you just banned the Catholic Worker workshop one of the oldest anarchist movements in North America. And (to the best of my knowledge) you haven't returned the 20 quid so we moving from censorship into mail order scam territory.

By making such a claim the implication is that you are offering some kind of social service to the broader anarchist movement rather than pushing your own political and marketing agenda.

*In reference that you have suffered email abuse...this is a familiar accusation from teachers, cops and screws...the abuse lies in your censorship.....when the powerless demand their rights they are often accused of abuse..it is always easy for the powerful (in this case those with the power to censor) to appear polite and reasonable as they turn the screws. But yep, I'm pretty pissed off being censored by people claiming to be anarchists (I've tried to make some class and cultural suggestions why this has happened in England and not elswehere...

*Your offer of discussion is a damage control management
technique to manage our dissent...pointing out the hopeless hypocricy of anarchists practising censorship on other anarchists. Your offer was for us to come cap in hand to the bookfair and we would have a private discussion on the side and the political questions concerning free speecch/expression/censorhip would never have been raised as they are now being raised publicly by this process.

*Our public bookfair workshop would have been the correct forum where the Catholic Worker could be questioned by the rest of the anarchist movement over your valid questions (all which seemed to be sited in the bedroom as your priority site for revolutionary activity) and maybe we could have shared questions we have from our experiences in the (soup)kitchen, streets and prison cells where our priority sites remain.
To accept your loyalty oath, hoop jumping process would have been a tad disfuntional.

*As to the comment that this is a huge publicty stunt..there a better ways to raise a profile than through anarchist event that can't even get it right on the questions of censorship, free experssion, dialogue and debate and thus appears doomed to disappear up it'sd own subcultural arse. (I assure you this is australian vulgarity noy abuse)

*It was important to put out this open letter challenging censorhip by anarchists...as it has been important for us in the past to be arrested at Cathedrals when the church betrays the revolutionary pacifism of Christ and starts cherleading for imperial vioelence. But it's also important to move on...there is a wrar to resist, friends in prison etc.
Christian-anarchism predates athiest-anarchism by a good 1700 years...we had a pretty good run for the first 300 when we remained crimninalised rather than co-opted/corrupted......see what shape you folks are in in 1700...if you can't get it right on a commitment to free expression, dialogue, the right to defend an accusation, opposition to censorship...maybe the rot has already set in and you are morphing into a subcultuaral version of what you claim to oppose. Rememeber we will always defend your right to free expression no matter how much you disagree with us. Bottom line.
Peace
Ciaron

Hello Ciaron

I agree with the organisers of the bookfair -- as you've given your group such a silly name, it's up to you to prove that you've no connection with the international terror network known as the Roman Catholic Church.

In their reply to your "open letter", the organisers ask you some simple questions (your position on abortion, for example). It's a shame that in your long rant you couldn't find space to answer.

So, why not try now? Answer their questions, and everyone will be happy. Unless, of course, you follow the teaching of the Church on these matters, in which case I'd suggest you're in no position to lecture anyone on fascism.

xx

Ciaron, you don't belong in the anarchist movement. You've had your moment - now go away.

The Bookfair are playing with words. They did ban Ciaron and the Catholic Worker community from doing a workshop, although not from coming to the bookfair as a punter.

In the first response to the ban, Ciaron wrote: "There are (and always have been) many activists in the CW movement who are homosexual and many who have had abortions". He also said: "I do not plan to talk about abortion or sexuality at the workshop. I do not vote and don't advocate the use of state power, legislation as a means of addressing anything." These were backed up with references to books, actions and other people, which obviously the Bookfair couldn't be botherd to look at.

It's sad that the Bookfair organisers cannot see past the name of the Catholic Worker movement and see all great things they do in this country and even more so in the USA.

There is still the matter of the £20 sent in for the workshop that, as far as I know, hasn't been returned.

The original open letter is at:  http://uk.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=13500&group=webcast

If you want to see what Catholic Workers have got up to in the last 24 hours look at: www.melbourne.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=17643&group=webcast

Please, don't be sectarian. We should gather all together and debate...

I don't think chiapas zapatistas are much pro-abortion. most of them are extremelly religious.

if Catholic Worker say they're anarchists, give them a chance to show it.

Nothing is easier for christianity to pose as a leftist movement. After all, who does not care for the poor ? But as Trotsky pointed out, The whole history of the ruling class is to "care" about the poor, so long as they dont attempt to fight back...
The SECULAR position, which should be taken up by all leftists, is to fight for the general right of belief in SOCIETY, not just for liberal motives but because that ensures rights for atheists too... BUT it would be absolute folly to permit such concessions WITHIN the left's own organizations.
Christianity is NOT socialism, not even of a 'rudimentary' kind. If from a British perspective it seems to be, it merely shows the degree to which christian notions have penetrated the left. Actually, christianity seems to be a rudimentary form of POPULISM, combining unfocussed idealism with ambivalence towards established power structures.
While MARX did not feel it necessary to embark on a full scale philosophical assault on Christainity, this task was taken up by NIETZSCHE; read ALSO SPRACHE ZARATHUSTRA and the ANTICHRIST

Well I guess our main objective of accepting the invitation to have a workshop at the bookfair was to introduce ourselves to the rest of the anarchist movement and to say we are there in proactive solidarity for the post-Genoa/NYC crackdown that is a coming. So that objective has been achieved in this challenge of "anarchists who believe in censorship" discourse probably more effectively than with the 15 or so folks who would have turned up at the workshop.

I'm not promoting the bookfair as I was before I and the CW were banned from giving a workshop, I'm not advocating a boycott, I'm not prioritising attending it but if I'm in my neighborhood on the day where it is taking place I may stroll in without any great expectations regarding freedom of expression etc.

Yep, we are christian-anarchist-pacifists but we aren't necessaerily polite when our rights are being denied by hypocritical bureaucrats. We are mostly working class from Yorkshire, East London, Chicago and Australia........we haven't survived school, seminary, convents, military, the terraces of White Hart Lane, psyche units, county jails, fed. prisons (UK/US/OZ) by being wall flowers when our rights are being suppressed.

I'm an anarchist, have been all my adult life, and as stated before believe it to be the question rather than a trite answer.

I still have cultural hunches why this censorship has happened in England and not in OZ/NZ/US.

The anarchy that flows from the culture of rural Spain will probably be more communal, the anarchy that flows from the multi-cultural U.S. where free expression is in the constitution will probably lend itself to being more pluralistic/tolerant/anti-censorship...the anarchy that has flowed out of the English public school system will probably have to struggle hard not to be annally retentive, culturally clueless in terms of identity, elitest and play itself out as conservative individualism within a hip marketable ambience.

Masny thanx to all who have contributed to this debate, let's get back to resisting the war........may see you in Hyde Park a more anarchic environment than the bookfair it seems.
Peace
Ciaron

I have read these comments, and others in private emails, with some sadness.

There is no point in indulging in mutual polemic. I say this to the supporters of both sides, LABF and CW.

If there is any point at all in having an exchange of emails on this, it lies in a discussion leading to the discovery of whatever mutual ground there is.

What you are all currently doing is starting from search for points of mutual dissent and using those as a reason for attack.

To Ciaron/CW I say: LABF are not the state, nor a front for it, nor are they aiming to oppress anyone

To LABF I say: Ciaron is not the pope; CW is not an official organ of the organised Catholic church.

Whatever anger you have at the actions of states and churches, you don't need to take it out on each other. In fact, from my knowledge of people in both LABF and CW, I would say that is one of the areas of common ground. Both of you are well angry at the abusive practices of the church and of the state. No doubt that is one reason that tempers flared so quickly: It is really annoying to be accused of being something you hate. Both sides have received that sort of accusation from the other.

Christians (Catholics and Protestants of various types) have appeared on the Right and the Left througout history.

There are still many on the Left who are here because (not despite) our Christian upbringing and/or beliefs.

There are still many people who reject systems of violence, and the imposition of 'authority' by force, because of our Christian upbringing and/or beliefs. I am one and I personjally claim that my position can reasonably be labelled 'Christian Anarchist'.

There are still, to our shame, many on the Right who also claim to be following *their* Christian upbringing and/or beliefs. We left/anarchist-christians find it very hard to understand how they can reconcile their faith with their politics. When someone comes along and tells us we are *really* one of them we feel insulted.

Equally, had I been on the receiving end of Ciaron's letter I would have felt insulted by it.

End result is that two groups are trying to impose their view "we are right you were wrong" on the other. But hang on a minute, isn't it against all our beliefs to try to *impose* that sort of moral victory on any other human being?

As someone who knows people in both groups, but a member of neither, I think you do have things in common. I think you'd both benefit from dialogue.

And I don't think that that dialogue has yet begun.

I don't think it can while you are too busy arguing to listen.

i don't understand what abortion has to do with anarchism. ditto the other issues the bookfair people wanted clarification from Catholic Worker on....

it seems to me, from this initial glance, that the Anarchist Bookfair isn't just about anarchism!

M.

i am astonished at some of the remarks made by the CW here: he writes about "Having suvived seminary and convent", which as far as i know, are precisely the organizations of catholicism. if they are as bad as we know them to be, you should be fighting for LIBERATION FROM CATHOLICISM, not regrouping around the shadow of the church. he talks about being "working class", as if that enough is a license to promote drivel and rudimentary populism (see my earlier comment).
NO, CHUMS, if you want to stand under the umbrella of the "Working class", you must fight for international atheist socialism. how the hell can chirstians play at being anarchists ? OXYMORON !

How amusing that the bookfair is willing to err on the side of keeping people out, and on the basis of a set of a dogmatic "anarchist" checklist of acceptibility. Look at Central America: Who was opposing U.S. imperialism? Catholic radicals. Who tossed out Marcos? Catholic radicals. Who's in jail in the U.S. for opposing the war machine? Catholic radicals.

What is the likelihood that the labour party, or anyone else that didn't subscribe to anarchist principles, would even want to come along to the bookfair. Bloodly slim, I'd wager.

Anyway, I think it's quite sad that any anarchist group would deal with a fellow anarchist this way, and I'm awed by the antipathy of many of the others who are commenting.

And for the record: I would bet that Ciaron has read more on anarchy, been arrested more, organized more, and lived more simply, than 99% of you, and he's done it for a hell of a lot longer than most (if not all) of you.

"We have met the enemy, and it is us."

Bruce Friedrich

I take River 6's comment that this has generated into mutual polemic and there has been no real dialogue.

Our position was that we were requesting additional information and this is still our position. The Anarchist Bookfair has been growing for 20 years and this is the first we have heard of this group in Britain. Their website does not use the word anarchism once and although some British anarchist groups get copies of the paper 'Catholic Worker', as far as I know they all put them straight in the bin.

I think Ciaron and his friends must accept that most anarchists see the Roman Catholic Church as part of the problem rather than the solution. We don't get that many Bookfair cheques countersigned by a reverend. Consequently we have a right to ask questions (even if Ciaron isn't the Pope).

The Anarchist Bookfair is successful and we do get unacceptable political parties trying to leach off that success. This year this would include the SWP, the SPGB and the Green Party. We cannot simply accept all those who would like to come. I do realise that in the US for example they would have a more inclusive approach, but frankly that is their weakness rather than their strength. For some reason the US Man/Boy Love Association comes to mind.

Regarding the cheque (in front of me at the moment). I have been wondering what to do with it. I think I'll give it to Ciaron (non-violently) if I see him on the march today. Failing that I'll post it to his box number.

Enjoy the Bookfair.

To Bill Bore

In some private email exchanges, a similar view was expressed, that a Christian Anarchist is no more possible than a square circle. A contradiction in terms.

Please think about the following three ideas - I am not asking you to believe them, just to consider that someone might believe them

1. That the life and teaching of Christ are profoundly important to how we live our individual lives.

2. That no useful end can be achieved by coercing another human being to do or believe something.

3. That it is therefore the ultimate absudity to force compliance with any particular understanding of Christ.

I suggest that anyone who assents to 1 can call themselves a Christian.

I suggest that anyone who assents to 2 can call themselves an anarchist.

I suggest that anyone who assents to 3 can call themselves a Christian Anarchist.

You may well not believe any of these, Bill

Your definition of anarchy may be different but I'd be curious to know by how much it differs from 2, and clearly you define Christianity in different terms to me. But I don't think you can deny that these definitions are plausible, and if not I suggest that Christian Anarchist is not *automatically* an oxymoron.

As a (self-labelled) Anarchist Christian, I see the co-option of the early Christian church by the Roman empire as a huge (the ultimate?) example of recuperation. Roman imperialism could not beat the Christians so it recuperated their organisation.

1700 years later is it now time to bail out and abandon the Church because it is totally recuperated? Clearly Ciaron thinks not.

That is why he can talk of being a survivor of the oppression within that church and yet still be working within that church to end all oppression. At the same time he is working in the secular world to end many other oppressions, and doing so more intensely than most of the activists I know, Christian, Pagan, or Atheist.

Clearly you think that there was never anything there to be recuperated. I personally would not choose to work within the catholic church either. 'My' part of the Christian church, the quakers, left the catholic organisation some 300/400 years ago, along with other recognisably anarchist groups like ranters and diggers.

You honestly think that trying to reform the Catholic church is a non-starter and have every right to say so. You do not, I suggest, have the right to say that the attempt prevents someone being an anarchist.

River~~

be careful when you tell people they don't exist. People who don't exist can be annoyingly persistent.

be careful when you tell people their ideas don't exist. The church found that non-existent heresies can be annoyingly persuasive.

be careful when you say Oxymoron. It comes from the Greek, literally Clever-Stupid (an example itself of an oxymoron). But if Catholic-Anarchist = Clever-Stupid, which is clever and which stupid?

As Gustav Launder (another anarchist mystic along with Mumia and most indigeneous folks who wouldn't make the cut at this bookfair) stated "the state is a relationship, we detroy it by creating other relationships" (hopefully commited to free speech/xpression etc.)

Martin, how can you end (except with the arrongance born of the power that you wield) your remarks with "enjoy the bookfair" when you are directing them at people you have blacklisted/banned/censored/denied their civil rights.

Enjoy the shopping mall but don't think or speak above the muzac. As much as you find catholic-anarchism a concept hard to deal with..I find a british-anarchism that denies the civil rigghts of irish-catholic-anarchists a bit of a struggle...old habits die hard for you folks don't they?

Minimally you should have returned the cheque immediately with an explanation of why you were blacklisting us...we shouldn't have had to chase you to find out we were banned

...we still shouldn't have to chase you to get the £20 back (it's symbolically weird, takes on the vibe of "pay-as-you-go oppression".....reminds me of the CW in NYC who spoke out at St.Pats Cathedral against the Gulf War, they put him in an ambulance and detained him in the psyche unit at Bellvue and then sent him a bill for the ambulance ride!!!!....but that's another story..one you won'tbe hearing because you've banned our workshop).

Post the cheque, don't hand it..wouldn't want you to mistake the transaction as any sign of consent from us.

You should really drop those prejudices and get out more...you could learn a lot from the Baptist minister who signed the cheque, he supports Hibs, did his time on the work brigades in Nicaragua and does great solidarity work for our prisoners...another opportunity lost.

Hard to tell if we dealing with a right line Lennism masquerading as anarchism or some exlusive gentleman's club. What's reassuring is that there is more of the Kindom outside the church and more of an anarchist movement outside the narrow defines on the London Anarchist Book Fair.

Censorship sux, I had the misfortune of growing up under a british legal system (in Queensland) with no constitutional rights to free speech, have spent much time in jail and taken the bashings for resisting it. The anarchists in Queensland always had a good position on free speech, sad to see the commitment diminish as one heads for the imperial centre.

Don't trust us take the discussion up with IWW folk singer Utah Phillips or autonomous feminist singer Ani DiFranco or the many academic works on anarchism (try "Demanding the Impossible - A History of Anarchism")
or the FBI on whether the 77 year old Catholic Worker is an anarchist movement

Free speech - use it or lose it!
Anarchy - A Promise Not a Threat!
Ciaron O'Reilly

This has got to be the silliest goddam fight/arguement/penis waving I have seen in a long time - anarchist censorship, based on an anglican knee-jerk reaction based in turn on some obese monarchist's desire to shtup somebody besides his wife!

The Catholic Worker movement has been around a long time, and accomplished a lot of good things, even on that obscure island anchored somewhere (for now) between Eire, France, and the North Sea oil wells.

I've known a few members of the Catholic Worker Party (as it is known over on the western side of the puddle, where the population is contractually bound to come over and bail out Albion twice a century...in return for which we don't have to learn the words to "God Save The Queen"). None of these people had very much nice to say about the Dude In Rome, the church itself, or organized religion in general. They DID have a great deal to say about tring to achieve a society based on individual independence, free of outside coercion.

Looking at it from the pointof view of someone who's been an autonomous anarchist for almost thirty years, I don't have any arguements against such basic precepts. On the other hand, I live in a country that ran off the monarchists a long time ago, and have been giggling about it ever since.

I think any organization that excludes another on such specious grounds as "They used the name of a religion our crowned clowns officially disapprove of" is being far too dogmatic to lay claim to the description of "anarchist".

And this from someone who isn't even xtian...

C'mon, people, take a nice laxative, or a muscatel enema, and just let it all out....you'll feel much better, and the people who read your silly positions on why you won't let the Catholic Worker into your silly little secterian soiree would no longer be able to scratch their heads and exclaim, " But these types are full of shit!"

Ironic that those calling themselves
anarchists have set themselves up
as the self appointed gatekeekers of
anarchist thought.
How unimaginative, how boring, how ignorant.

If they crawled out of their self
referential holes and bothered to do
some research themselves, they might have
discovered the richness of
Catholic Worker praxis.
I emphasise praxis because I wonder how many
anarchist movements at the
bookfair will be sharing how to fund
themselves through cooperative
labour, live and work with the poor and
confront those institutions that perpetuate
injustice. I submit a
movement that is able to these things is
invaluable to the anachist
struggle and movement.

But like fundamentalists (Christian or
Athiest), they are threatened by
intellectual challenge and don't want to
believe there is any other
model.

Their lack of vision, research and
inclusiveness makes them irrelevant
to the struggle for freedom and justice in
the world.

Moana Cole
New Zealand

I firstly have to admit that I have a soft spot for british anarchism having grown up in the 70s/80s and been a big fan of Crass, Flux of Pink Indians et al and the el centro idea. However, it didn't take long before I realised that brit anarchism, although inspirational, was far too narrow in its outlook. There is a big world of central american and eastern european and middle eastern politics as well as struggles of the poor, the homeless and the indigenous folk out there.

The Catholic Worker movement shone out as one group (although not the only one) who tackled many of these issues head on and via their back doors.I have read much about the movement and lived and worked in a few of its communities. I have met Ciaron and have gotten to know him quite well. He is one of many dedicated, selfless Catholic Worker people who have much to share with the rest of the anarchist movement.

The nihilist/athiest faction really should open their minds. Christian anarchism has been around for a long time and shouldn't be confused with the male dominated heirarchy who have tried to run the vatican,just like brit anarchists shouldn't be judged by the actions of the queen or tony blair. Catholicism is vibrant and revolutionary in many of the world's poorest and oppressed countries. Liberation theology sprung up out leftist/christian and village/cell politics and is where Catholicism is really shaping itself in the new millenium. The Catholic church is at the forefront of the debt cancellation campaign and is a major whistle blower on the actions of the World Bank and IMF (do some research on Archbishop Diarmud Martin of the Councilfor Peace and Justice).

Now before all you athiest faction members jump up and scream, "aha, another stupid Christian", tell me what good does your brand of atheism achieve except to form another barrier or class . It looks to me to be like a bunch of "in kids" who exclude the other kids from their group not because these kids don't have anything good to offer the group but because they don't wear the cool or fashionable clothes that they do.

Catholic workers, while being strictly pacifist, have disabled uranium mining machinery, disarmed trident missiles at the factory, rendered fighter planes inoperable and unable to be shipped out for village destroying duties, disables nuclear submarines, damaged ICMB silos, tore up militar aircraft runways and stopped a B52 from taking off to drop a payload on Iraqi civilians as well as many other acts of resistance to the war machine. They also work in community in big cities, feeding and giving shelter and dignity to the very poor and homeless.

Anarchists unite! We share a common enemy but have a different faith/morality. Most of us are indirectly guilty of the sins of complicity eg using petrol in our cars, wearing clothing made in slave/sweat shops etc. These are personal issues which distract from the core issues: oppression, poverty, war, government, corporate power, human rights etc which Ciaron and many other Catholic Worker people such as Dorothy Day, Jim Dowling, Phil and Dan Berrigan, Moana Cole, Jeff Dietrich et al have struggled and inspired others for.

For a detailed exploration of the issue of the relationship between Anarchism and Roman Catholicism have a look at the irish WSM website (address above).

Thanx for the link Martin. I believe that the position of the Irish Anarchists is summarised by the following: "Firstly it must be made clear that we see religion as a personal matter. Everyone should be free to worship as they want and hold whatever beliefs they want. We condemn totally any attacks on an individual's religious freedom." This is also the position of the Catholic Worker movement.

In the Irish example, priests and bishops were all but exterminated by the British occupying forces prior to the 1800s because of their opposition to continued oppression. Cromwell ,perhaps inspired by Vlad the Dragon,loved to behead and impale them for public display.

The Catholic Church heirarchy were later co-opted by the british and brit-irish governments and used as a tool to further oppress the native population even through the genocidal holocaust of 1845-49. And yes, the Church heirarchy does have far too much control in the Irish Free State.

But all of this only adds substance to the beliefs of the Catholic Worker movement. Just as in politics, the aim is to take control away from the few, the same applies to the Church. Power and corruption, power is corruption, corruption is power.

Nice try anyway Martin. Be careful not to look too desperate.

Jim
Australia