CNN did not use images form 1991

Out of context not old.

16.09.2001 11:02

this may be usefull but I have yet to check it out.
BD

From: MATHIEZ@f...
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2001 12:01 pm
Subject: [iipes01] Vivian

I hope and pray that your family, friends, and co-workers are all safe.
This e-mail is from a friend of mine in Palestine. I think that her message is important for us to hear- especially in reguards to the withdrawal of Isreali soliders in Jenin. As you all know, this summer I studied with students in the Middle East and Balkans. They are all VERY supportive and concerned--Jewishs, Arabs -- everyone. My prayer are with you all.

Peace

Cristin

my dear friends,

I express to you, my american friends, my profound sorrow and my closeness in prayer for all victims at this horrible and tragic moment. I really feel sorry for all the world,i feel sorry for us, HUMAN beings.
we are not human any more,we are animals!!!! i feel outraged and angry for this aggression against humanity!!! it is really horrible, the world that we are living in!!!! it is a jungle where animals eat each other for survival!!! under the bombing of the bethlehem Area, palestinains
were stuck in front of TV, watching the horrible inhuman attack while hearing the bombs falling around! how would they behave??? Palestinians are confused and desperate ...Palestinians are not celebrating the death of
people....i have tears in my eyes now because of the horrible image you are getting from news!!! it is wrong...i am begging you, my friends, not to believe what you see......Palestinians were celebrating the withdrawal of the Israeli army from the palestinian city, Jenin!!! that was it! we are being attacked every day...my best friends' house was bombard at two minutes from where I stay
at bethlehem....believe me, I don't want to talk about my suffering as much as I want to talk about the suffering of all human beings around the globe of whom we don't know very well....!!!!!!! Palestinian groups denounced and condemned the attack ...reminding you that our struggle is against Occupation and slavery. America, as a super power, has duties toward weak nations asking for its help. WAKE UP americans!!!! we need your help!!! the oppressed, the hungry, the poor in this world are crying out for help!!!!
President Bush ended his speech last night:: '''None of us will ever forget this day, yet we go forward to defend freedom and all that is good and just in our world"""" i hope so! hey my friends, i am with you ...we are together in spirit and soul..... we share same values, we share the same struggle ....

i love you and pray for you.

vivian

BD

Palestinians and Jenin

17.09.2001 07:55

If, as the article above says, the Palestinians were celebrating the Israeli withdrawal then why...

1) Many Palestinians were carrying banners of Usama bin Laden

2) American journalists trying to film the events were kept in their hotel rooms under armed guard

3) Journalists who got film were threatened with their lives if they published it?

Jim

Jim
mail e-mail: jamescannon10@hotmail.com

What is rolling about in your head?

17.09.2001 14:06

Under no circumstance would I ever believe what I get off this site, sad, but true.
The problem, is that anyone can put anything on it. Add, a bit of glitz, throw in a few pictures, or audio clips, and, the author is an expert. And, your readers, who seem to be anti-everything anway, eat it up.

I popped onto this site on the day of the WTC disaster purely by accident. I, was looking for indications of grief or sorrow. Many, of your authors,(sic.) expressed
what I believe to be normal reaction. But, many did not.
Many authors,(sic.) penned the usual whacko rhetoric which is now what I attribute to the majority of the "independent media".

William

You may have to wait a bit.

17.09.2001 14:25

Vivian,
Most reasonable people would agree that the State Of Isarel
was an invention of Europeans/Americans.
That is not going to ever change.

In my lifetime, when I think back over history to the events in the Middle East, I seem to remember that Israel has constantly been defending itself against the agression of its neighbors.

You speak of loving. Start, by loving your neighbor.
The Arabs and the Israelites are going to have to get along. Or, they will perish together. Americans will probably remain interested only until the oil runs out.
Sad, but true.

William

Believe

17.09.2001 17:20

You are easily led to believe EVERYTHING else that you read, hear and see without any thought. Why is it then that when things are said that are contrary to what EVERYONE else is saying, that you do not believe?
People like to use the word indoctrinate to describe the 'attitude' of palestinians, iranians, iraqis. Yet you who are not open to other ideas or ways of thinking seems to be indoctrinated as well.

Nesaar
mail e-mail: darra@iname.com

retraction

17.09.2001 19:13

"I bought the idea myself, and reproduced it for you because of the importance of it, in the case it was to be confirmed."

I think it's great that Sr. Carvalho retracted his statement, but I was disturbed by his initial rationale. The more important the accusation, the more important it is to confirm it before spreading it around. Here's another quote on the subject:

"The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it."

--Joseph Goebbels.

Sincerely,
Leonard Abrams

Leonard Abrams
mail e-mail: abramsleonard@hotmail.com

It's All Relative

17.09.2001 19:15

I for one am incensed that supposedly openminded individuals cannot understand that Osama bin Laden and the Taliban have their own culturally defined ways of expressing themselves, and I believe that if ethnocentric Westerners can't broaden their horizons, they should stay off the international stage.

Anyone who has studied these cultures knows that carrying ceremonial daggers, firing guns at weddings, ritually slaughtering sheep and executing nonbelievers are time-hallowed ways of cultural expression in such societies that we so unthinkingly call "primitive."

In protest of such bigotry, I suggest that all self-aware Westerners who receive this message dress in white and gather at the largest public buildings in their respective urban centers when the next fundamentalist martyr drops by so that these hard-working folk can practice their beliefs with a minimum of hardship.

Yours in intellectual struggle,
Leonard “peace and understanding” Abrams

Leonard Abrams
mail e-mail: abramsleonard@hotmail.com

Retraction Reply

17.09.2001 19:32

I really think we have little reason to believe that the footage shown was false. First of all, interviews with some of the people on the scene SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED the incident. There were also statements describing the attack as a "bullseye", etc. That having been said, it also doesn't pass as a representation of the Palestinians as a people. The fact of the matter is that a group of Palestinians DID celebrate the attack on the World Trade Center. There is no point in denying that. It was presented as such, and I don't feel there was any media bias in this case trying to pass off this footage as being the all-encompassing viewpoint of the entire Arab world. Any means taken to supress the showing of this footage qualifies as censorship of the most dangerous kind. Unless the footage was shown with the purpose of defaming the entire middle east, or trying to represent the viewpoint of an entire people (as some have said), there is no reason that the video shouldn't have been presented, especially considering the tasteful manner in which it was shown. Shown along with the video were statements expressing the condemnation of the attack by Islamic religious leaders and the leaders of many middle-Eastern countries. I see no reason to suppress or misrepresent this footage.

M. Grusha
mail e-mail: matthew-grusha@uiowa.edu
Homepage: http://www.tristesse.f2s.com/

CNN did not use images from 1991

17.09.2001 19:42

It may be unfortunate that the initial report of false images may be inaccurate. But there still seems something fishy about that. All I ever saw was footage of about a half-dozen school children in the street carrying Palestinian flags. If Palestinians were celebrating the events of Sept. 11, how come that was the most the news could report?

Craig
mail e-mail: maquis@softcom.net
Homepage: http://www.homestead.com/latterdaytales

Response to Matthew Grusha

17.09.2001 20:31

Mr. Grusha,

I felt compelled to respond to your post concerning the footage of the Palestinian response to the WTC attack.

I have been both watching and recording 24 hour media coverage since 11:30am PST on Tuesday, Sept. 11. I have seen the mentioned clip a total of 15 times. In NO INSTANCE was the attack on the WTC "specifically mentioned", nor were there any comments about a "bullseye". In fact, there is very little audible dialog. There is also no footage of photos or pictures of Osama bin Laden, as other have alleged.

I believe this footage is being used out of context. In fact, here's something to investigate...The first showing of this particular piece of footage occured around 2:00pm PST on Tuesday, Sept. 11th. This was approximately 2 hours and 15 minutes after the attack in New York. What time was it in the West Bank then? If I'm not mistaken, it would have been dark there. Based on shadows from the footage, it would seem to be around noon in the footage. Do the times jive??? I don't think they do, although I haven't researched it yet.

I think I'll do that now. In the meantime, it would seem only right and fair to report accurately what's on the footage.

Michael West
mail e-mail: MW215OC@aol.com

To Michael West and Craig (prev. 2 comments)

17.09.2001 21:37

THANK YOU! I thought I was the only person to realize that a bunch of school children celebrating during daylight, in what should have been nighttime, was completely out of place. Also, if The Palestinians (inferring the whole nation) were so celebratory, why were only the 15 or so 6-10 year olds celebrating while about 20 others looked on? The entire scene seemed completely staged.

Tom Kish
mail e-mail: tomkish@alumni.duke.edu

Check your watch again

17.09.2001 21:58

"The first showing of this particular piece of footage occured around 2:00pm PST on Tuesday, Sept. 11th. This was approximately 2 hours and 15 minutes after the attack in New York. "

The last time I checked, the first plane hit at 8:45 AM EST, which is 5:45 AM PST and 3:45 PM in Palestine (that area is at GMT +2 hours, while EST is GMT -5 hours).

Since CNN coverage was definitely going when the second plane hit at 15 minutes later, and CNN coverage is viewable in Palestine, it is possible that the people of that region were aware of the attack at 4 PM local time.

I don't know why you think that the time you first saw the footage aired has to match the time that it occurred. We do have the technology to record video, you know?

GB

More Observations

17.09.2001 22:31

Most ironic, if that is the best word, in my view is the view of a kid wearing a Nike shirt, eating some sort of desert on a styrofoam plate, with a plastic fork, in front of a shop called Eiffel Tower something... Western culture was all around them.

DataPanic
mail e-mail: dan346@hotmail.com

checking info

17.09.2001 22:45

Even if your mother tells your it is true, check it out before you print it.

alex
mail e-mail: morphex2002@yahoo.com

cultural prejudices

17.09.2001 23:22

Abrams is quite right to make these points. I have not heard them made since some Berkeley anthropologists opposed American civil rights legislation back in the sixties because the new laws threatened the ways of a genuine "fok culture," the Jim Crow American South. Good work, Abrams. With friends like you,...

D.MacDonald
mail e-mail: morphex2002@yahoo.com

this is all so sad

18.09.2001 03:00

including the events of the past few days, as well as the fact that indymedia's reputation has, for me, been destroyed by the rumor-mongering and the inability of people to research BEFORE making a statement...

part of an intelligent media approach is research - part of an intelligent approach to LIFE is research - educate YOURSELF, so you don't have to rely on other people to figure out what it is that you believe.

i'm sorry, indymedia.

dori
mail e-mail: dori@saranwarp.com
Homepage: http://www.saranwarp.com

Is this a joke?

18.09.2001 05:21

I'm not sure how to take your opinion on the matter of the most violent and deadly terrorist attack on any civilian population in modern history. Am I open-minded enough to understand why a desperate group would do this? I guess not. Your main argument seems to be that Americans have erred in their conviction to support peace and stability in the middle east and that their lack of success somehow justifies a mass and deadly retaliation from unseen and unknown forces. You infer that Americans celibrate in the deaths of Muslims. You are incorrect. While some Americans remain complacent about the events in the middle east, most agonize over each and every death in Isreal and Palestine, trying to find, without success, some sort of solace in the comfort of knowing who is "right" or who is "wrong". This is the American way-to question our leaders while still supporting them. To try to draw a parallel between any sort of religion and the recent events in the Americas, you can only assume that the resposible parties are religiously preverted and worshiping false idols, For no God under man would allow the use his name to to be used with such vanity and arrogance.
It has occurred to me that i didn't include my E-mail address at the beginning of this message.To mitigate the fact that i might be a coward I'm giving may

address-BSTOGA@AOL.COM
If you feel the need to respond to specific aspect of this E-mail Pleas respond to

BSTOGA@AOL.com
Thanks
Brad

brad stogner
mail e-mail: BSATOGA@aol.com

Response

18.09.2001 09:42

In respose to your comment, I can only tell you that the footage I saw that day showed a group of Palestinians celebrating Palestinians celebrating the bombing of the World Trade Center, accompanied with footage on the scene of people specifically referring to the incident. While their words were translated, I think it is probably safe to say that the translations are accurate. There are millions of people in the United States who speak Arabic and would have picked up on the discrepency otherwise.

- M. Grusha

M. Grusha
mail e-mail: matthew-grusha@uiowa.edu
Homepage: http://www.tristesse.f2s.com/

So What!

18.09.2001 14:08

This debate about Palestinians cheering... I am saddened by what has happened in the US but I am not surprised that the palestinians are cheering. How else would they react? The US has destroyed their lives so now you expect them to cry!!! Come on...
One other thing, why is CNN only worried about showing the Palestinians cheering? There are so many other nationalities that are in some ways glad that something like this happened to the US. Even some Canadians think that the US brought it upon themselves. CNN (US) is only interested in making everyone believe that the Palestinians are evil. I am just sick of it all.

The US is synonymous to Terrorism in my book. I can give you countless examples of acts of terrorism. All you have to do is study the wars that have taken place in Africa, in particular Angola and Mozambique. The US has often financed wars and to me these are acts of terrorism.

One last comment, just put yourself in the shoes of those who suffer all year around. Those who suffer as a consequence of US policies and/or US military involvement. You probably will never be able to picture this because you have become too comfortable in your house and society.

Philippe
mail e-mail: danilo9@hotmail.com

It was obvious the images were current

18.09.2001 14:20

Not that it is very important or not, but those images contained shots of adults marching through the streets as well with American flags underneith their feet. If the pictures were from 1991 celebrating America's invasion of Kuwait, then I doubt they were cheering America on while stomping on the American flag.

Sorry your teacher couldn't own up to her mistake. It would seem that she's not alone in her inability to admit guilt, as Osama Bin Ladin has trouble with that too.

j

Joshua Johnson
mail e-mail: jushuaj@klune.com

One's Terrorism is Another's Patriotism

18.09.2001 15:01

Only Americans (United States citizens), shielded from the facts by their leaders (under control by lobbying interests of big business) and lied to by the mainstream media (owned by big business) are unaware of the terrorism and attrocities carried out in the Middle East and Arab nations by our very own government over the past fifty years.

But then, it's not "terrorism" when WE do it, is it?

It's all in the name of "Freedom" and "Democracy," despite the fact that many of the governments or pseudo-governments propped up by the US, and in many cases, even helped to come to power, are NOT democratic, but rather, dictatorial and/or tyrannical, and despite the fact that the people being so controlled are NOT free.

Oh, but wait, what they REALLY mean by "freedom" is "freedom to control the oil," ah, yes.

Somebody muzzle that president -- his lips are flapping, but his brain "has left the building."

Nothing like making blustery statements and insulting threats that will only help polarize the Islamic nations, a potential military force of a half a billion people, against the West. That's playing very nicely into the hands of those who orchestrated the attack on September 11, 2001 -- that's PRECISELY what they want to have happen.

Time to wake up America -- stop hitting the snooze alarm and take a look at our own government and the nasty things it's been doing.

Byron Canfield
mail e-mail: barn@byronc.com
Homepage: http://www.byronc.com

Blah, blah , blah and more blah

18.09.2001 15:52

I see more whining and grinding about the US, but you guys miss the point of this whole thread.

The person accused CNN of showing false / old footage, I said it then, where's the proof ? There was none, it was obvious.

Let this be a lesson for all internet reporter wannabes. I have no great love for the media, but I rather pay attention to an AP wire story than anything posted on this site.

It's also pretty irresponsible, all over the net people were quoting this erroneous "story" as fact.

> So What!
> by Philippe 7:08am Tue Sep 18 '01

You sound like those who blame the raped women. "She deserve it", "She was asking for it". Please.

As for Canada, I'm glad most normal Canadians DO NOT share your insipid views.

Tell me someithing, did your Canadian friends also express happines by knownig people from Brittain, Japan, India, Mexico, possibly Canada and other countries died too ?

You're pathetich "Philippe".

Augusto

palestinians cheering?

18.09.2001 15:53

if everyone would just do a little reading, you wouldn't need to argue so much. check this article out

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-000074613sep16.story?coll=la-headlines-nation

bloodzombie
mail e-mail: frenchfry40@hotmail.com

Fake CNN Footage

18.09.2001 19:06

Boy. You guys have pretty shitty fact checking.

Hwy, I've got a really great looking bridge I could sell you...

Suzyn Smith
mail e-mail: hideouskitty@yahoo.com

The Taliban 'expressing itself' culturally

18.09.2001 19:34

It's not 'ethnocentric' to believe that women should be treated like human beings and allowed their freedom. And slaughtering innocent people (whether they be citizens of a country that commits crimes in their name or not) does not fall under the heading of religious and/or cultural expression.
"Peace and Love," my arse, Leonard. Get your head out of your butt and take a good hard look at what these so-called Muslims have done.
If you think that Bin Laden and the Taliban are just continuing a centuries-old tradition, why don't you take yourself over there to join them and see how they understandingly welcome you into the fold?

R. Markowitz
mail e-mail: grnvillagegirl@aol.com

Palestinian Newsfootage

18.09.2001 21:14

In regard to the fiasco pertaining to Palestinian images from 1991 being used by CNN. Once again people have nothing better to do than make comments-as factual-without considering the reprecussions of such emotionalism. I was leary about the info that a respected news agency like CNN would willingly foster propaganda. However-with the emotional impact of the World Trade Center attacks, we are not really thinking-before acting/speaking. If a teacher (and I myself am a teacher) said such a thing, why didn't the class ask for her proof. I'm amazed that the class even listened at all in the first place. LET'S TRY TO FOLLOW THE EXAMPLE OF OUR PRESIDENT AND LEADERS. BE PATIENT AND RATIONALE. LET'S 'SHUT-UP' AND MAKE THE TERRORISTS WONDER WHAT WE'RE UP TO FOR A CHANGE.

Ed
mail e-mail: ecraig@pisd.edu

Israel out of Palestine!!!

18.09.2001 21:27

America, if it intends global peace, needs to divest from Israel and insist on freeing Palestine! No more genocides!

Leon
mail e-mail: Leverdude

false reporting?

18.09.2001 22:33

ok, I can't believe some of the people that actually allow themselves to be part of the great Islamic Spin-doctoring...Of course the palestinians were cheering in the streets to the pain and anguish suffered by America. Just as the Idiots were chanting and cheering on Osama here in the US...(near Boston, and with actual live feed broadcast).
Please do not let your self be pulled into the quagmire of complaciency and redirection by certain groups who's main purpose is to convolute the actual events.

jim
mail e-mail: jma00a@yahoo.com

Re: Taliban expressing itself culturally

19.09.2001 00:37

Markowitz, your crude comments about Leonard's post missed the point. It was obviously satirical. Maybe you should pull your head out of wherever you keep it before you post again. You just made yourself look like an idiot.

Mike

Mike

Another Canadian

19.09.2001 02:42

You think that Philiipe from Canada sounds "like those who blame the raped women. "She deserve it", "She was asking for it". Please." Why not take a little of your own advice and check out a fact or two about your 'raped' America. America is far from an innocent victim, ... but if you really want to use a rape analogy, believe me, it's the good old U.S.A. on the giving end.
When Phillipe from Montreal stated that many Canadians feel that the "US brought it upon themselves', he was referring to the numerous atrocities performed directly and indirectly by the American government, usually when protecting their own interests in the name of others, that have gone unpunished. They are not fighting for freedom, they fight to gain power and money. The US must define 'terrorism' if they want to declare war against it, but to define it is to hang thenselves, as they are the biggest terrorists in the world. This act of retaliation - yes, retaliation-- was miniscule in comparison to the hundred of thousands of civilians that America has slaughtered with neither mercy nor apology.
This is what Phillipe meant by America "called it upon themselves". But, Augusto, if you read independant media sources you must have some idea of how America is percieved in the rest of the world. So perhaps it was not ignorance, but patriotic fervour, that caused you to mistake Phillipe's comment as a lack of sympathy. Canadians have great sympathy for all the victims. But do not expect Canadians, nor the rest of the world, to buy into the propaganda of "the American Way".

bsjones
mail e-mail: bsjones@hotmail.com

Response

19.09.2001 03:10

A couple of replies:

Philippe, while I'm sure there WERE people in Canada who thought the U.S. "had it coming", there weren't sizeable demonstrations in the streets celebrating it. Your comment was intended to cause controversy, plain and simple.

The point about U.S.-influenced acts of terrorism in other countries is valid, to a point. What does any of that matter right now, in regard to the bombing of the World Trade Center and pentagon? Of course the U.S. has financed despots, of course the U.S. has financed wars... but what does any of that have to do with the situation right now? Unless you honestly believe that 5,000+ innocent Americans is some sort of "payment" for that, then the answer is nothing. Admittedly, our government is far from innocent. It's amazing how everyone who brings that point up acts as if that's some big secret that the media has been keeping from us, or that they are some sort of political genius for being on top of it. I would say that, at the risk of a boost to your ego, it would be better to not try and use those incidents to justify acts of terrorism. Kofi Annan made a statement (I don't remember the exact wording), but was along these lines: "No just cause is advanced by acts of terrorism." Besides, none of the countries who have been affected by U.S. involvement have come out in favor of the bombing.

It basically boils down to the fact that U.S. government, the governments of the middle-east, the entire UN security council, and Cuba unilaterally decry the bombings without any attempt to justify them. It seems that the other side consists only of people who wish to prove some sort of point about their own political knowledge and prowess at the expense of 5,000+ innocent victims.

Besides, if the bombings TRULY justified something, then why hasn't anyone taken credit for it? Suppose Bin Laden is behind the bombings. If he won't even take credit for them, what cause has he advanced?

Now is not the time to bring up all of our governement's past mistakes. It would be a selfish cause, especially when we have so many unanswered questions.

M. Grusha
mail e-mail: matthew-grusha@uiowa.edu
Homepage: http://www.tristesse.f2s.com/

re: m. grusha

19.09.2001 04:11

there can be no justification for the attacks, but there can be explanations and one would be wise to consider them when measuring a response. how many times has CNN or the Times or the Post bothered to convey the relationship between bin Laden and his US sponsors prior to 1991 or so? when it is there, it's hidden deep inside the paper (or in the WSJ) ..unfortunately much of this information is a secret to the US general public - ie my mother, who is usually fairly well informed, had no idea that the US used depleted uranium munitions in the "Gulf War."

the horror of 9/11 cannot be justified by the catalog of prior horrors committed by the US and its allies and proxies --- nor should anyone hesitate to condemn both.

e

ethan

re: ethan

19.09.2001 05:58

I agree with you. However, I feel it is necessary to look at Bin Laden's character. Even if Bin Laden is innocent, I can't say that I would feel much remorse for having suspected him. He specifically mentioned that all American citizens were to be considered targets, a mere week before the attacks occured. Bin Laden is a reclusive millionaire who trains terrorists. This is all documented truth, admitted by Bin Laden himself. Therefore even if American intervention could be used as an excuse for the bombing, what exactly is he retaliating against? Figthing in the Palestinian region? I find it hard to believe that an Afghani millionaire can honestly speak for the opressed Palestinian proleteriat. Agression against those of the Islam faith? Also hard to believe, considering the fact that Islamic leaders have been vocal in their oppositon to the bombings. A friend of mine is a recent (5-6 years ago) Sudanese expatriate, and also a Muslim. He stated very firmly that he believes Islamic extremism is in direct opposition to the teachings of the Koran, a sentiment echoed by many Muslim leaders.

If Bin Laden was retaliating, who was he retaliating on behalf of? The Islamic faith wants nothing to do with the attacks... the Palestinians want nothing to do with the attack (Arafat has made several statements condemning the attack)... If he were really concerned about the nation of Palestine and the Islamic faith, I'm sure he could put his millions of dollars to better use. I can see this as nothing but a selfish act.

M. Grusha
mail e-mail: matthew-grusha@uiowa.edu
Homepage: http://www.tristesse.f2s.com/

To Michael West

19.09.2001 09:46

Umm... the least you could do is get a sense for how the clock works on planet earth before posting BS.
First off, "2 PM PST" can hardly be "2 hours and 15 minutes" after the attacks, moron, since the attacks were at approx. 9AM EST (or rather EDT.. but that's not important).
Now then. 9AM EST is 5 PM in Israel / Palestine... so do yourself a favor and get a clue.

The Timekeeper

retaliating? more like provoking

19.09.2001 13:01

i think it would be helpful to dispense with the idea of terrorists retaliating against the crimes of the USA. This is undoubtedly a motivating factor, probably especially so for the individuals who conducted the attack. It would be more helpful placing the attack in the context of a deliberate and measured act of provocation. If it is Osama Bin Laden, or any other of his ilk, the aim is to destabilise and promote a greater conflict. It looks like this is what the USA will succumb to and frankly no good can come from any of it.

arne c
mail e-mail: arnec@hotkey.net.au

America the biggest terrorist

19.09.2001 13:21

Dear friends

Let all of us turn against US for its brutual attacks on Iraq and its full and unequivocal support to Israel in suppressing the Palastine poeple. U please think. Who is the terrorist? Is it not the US which has killed lakhs of innocent childrren in Iraq by preventing them of food and medicine? Is the US not a terrorist? The ISrael, with the full support of US has been killing thousands of Palstine people. Let us not believe what AP and CNN are churning out. THey are just one-sided news lacking objectivity.
Let us rally against any dubious move of US, the rogue state.

Firos
mail e-mail: firosedv@yahoo.com

who is the USA

19.09.2001 15:17

My Dear friends
i would like to share with all the people of the world their grief for this terrible loss of human life,and i would lkie to draw the attention of all those people fighting against the USA a few facts, we might not like the policy of the USA government, but we have to know one thing , what is the USA, they are a mixture off people from all over the world that have come to live in a piece of land where they feel it is safe and secure,this nation is a mixture off all nationaleties ,to fight against them is fighting against the whole world Arabs INdians Pakistani British Irish Yemen Saudi Arabia French Italians Irish , take a map of the world pick up a few thousand from every part of the globe and place them in USA that is what it is , united states all living in a country callled America.
People of the world wake up , what are we doing to one another as fellow human beings, we were all created by one god, who has put us on this earth for a short time to do good and help one another, not to kill and destroy, this vast universe belongs to each and evreyone of us, there should be no borders among us this is gods land and we are his children,let us work for peace let us help the poor , if we chanel all the money that is spent on arms to help improve the standard of living of every human being on this planet we will have no hunger no envey no poverty no violence ,i might be dreaming but this would be a better place for everyone, what are we fighting over land , it belongs to all of us , and this land will survive and we shall all be buried in its fold one day.
May god lead us all to take the right path of peace and love

lailasalah@hotmail.com
mail e-mail: lailasalah@hotmail.com

Hey, Firos... what the $%#@ is a "lakh"???

19.09.2001 16:01

Hey, Firro: If you want to post in an English language forum, try speaking English properly.
Yes, that's ethnocentric. No, I probably can't speak whatever language this Firro character speaks. But in case you haven't noticed, the Politically Correct craze in the USA seems to be fizzling out as of late.
Now, if you want to turn against the US, I suggest you start by giving back the billions upon billions of dollars we have given nations in loans (which nobody ever pays back), aid, and supplies. Ever heard of the Marshall Plan? Huh?
As for the sanctions against Iraq, those are the fault of one person: Sadaam Hussein. Yes, the US has stuck its nose in other people's business time and time again, and we've made some mistakes, but does that justify slaughtering thousands of people who really don't have a voice in such decisions? We might elect our leaders, but beyond that, we can't control them. You know, there are a lot of Americans who oppose unlimited US support of Israel ... probably some of those Americans were killed in these attacks. In fact, one of those Americans happens to be writing this. But since I'm not a millionaire, there's nothing I can do except write letters to my representatives that never get read. Besides, US foreign policy doesn't justify mass murder and destruction. I think ALL parties involved in this Israel vs. The Arabs conflict have killed enough and destroyed enough... how about calling it even before more have to die, all you Middle Eastern countries?
Finally, I suggest that you refer to this famous radio address given in 1973 by Gordon Sinclair.

America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given
recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from
Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
commentator. What follows is the full text of his
trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the
Americans as the most generous and possibly the least
appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and
Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the
Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these
countries is today paying even the interest on its
remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,
it was the Americans who propped it up, and their
reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets
of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59
American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
billions of dollars! into discouraged countries. Now
newspapers in those countries are writing about the
decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that
is gloating over the erosion of the United States
dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country
in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo
Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?
If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the
International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting
a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese
technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German
technocracy, and you get automobiles.

You talk about American technocracy, and you find
men on the moon -! not once, but several times -
and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs
right in the store window for everybody to look at.
Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded.
They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless
they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American
dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India
were breaking down through age, it was the Americans
who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and
the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an
old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced
to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name
me even one time when someone else raced to the
Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside
help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled
to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating
over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of
those."

So, in closing, "friends," if you hate Americans, stop buying our products, stop accepting our money and aid, and stop using anything that was originally invented here. And Firro? You can kiss my American ass.

Amanda
mail e-mail: someone@whodoesntwant2Bharassed.net

CNN and The Following Retraction

19.09.2001 16:50

Frankly I believed the posting and forwarded it to several of my friends with the disclaimer that it was nothing but a claim. And later I forwarded the retraction about the claim. But also I added couple things which were the reason why I believed such posting to be plausible.

1 - At the brink of the Gulf War, the very same media broadcasted images of birds dipped in oil, with the footage of Saddam filled the Gulf with oil which might cause a major environmental catastrophy. Later it was found out that these images were taken off France from a sunken tanker.

2 - A girl shown on the TV, was crying and claiming to be raped by occupying Iraqi soldiers. This is not to be taken lightly. Then it was discovered that the girl was daughter of a Kuwaiti diplomat to the US, who ha not been to Kuwait for years before the invasion.

3 -

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/chile/index.html is very good example of how CIA uses the media. Even though I do not believe every claim in that page, I believe the following lines and gives me very good indication about how people in the US and abroad are manipulated to reach a goal:

"Propaganda in Support of Pinochet Regime. After the coup in September 1973, CIA suspended new covert action funding but continued some ongoing propaganda projects, including support for news media committed to creating a positive
image for the military Junta. Chilean individuals who had collaborated with the CIA but were not acting at CIA direction assisted in the preparation of the ?White Book,? a document intended to justify overthrowing Allende. It contained an allegation that leftists had a secret ?Plan Z? to murder the high command in the months before the coup, which CIA believed was probably disinformation by the Junta."

=====

Finally, I do not believe everything I hear, but I have some reasons to consider some more than others, and that is where independent media comes in.

Fikri Sonmez

Fikri Sonmez
mail e-mail: fikri_sonmez@hotmail.com

My Comment

19.09.2001 22:34

I just hafta say this, i am really, really sorry what has happened to those affected by this huge tragedy. But i must say, i see how this has helped slightly, and how it has hurt differently. First of all i know that americans must learn that they are not invincible, just because you are PART of the most powerful country in the world, doesn't make you safe. In fact to your great country you are actually expendable, the govournments of almost all countries do no care what happens to their civilians as long as it doesn't hurt a significant amount or make their power waver. I know i would most likely be expendable and my country is quite a bit less populated than the U.S.A. , you just have to accept this. For instance, if this had been an earthquake or another such thing, this would be much smaller, hell it could have been a small group of people who just decided they wanted to be radical and took it really far. It isn't as hard as you'd think to learn everything they knew. Hell if you're old enough, and have the qualifications you can go for training to be airline pilot. But think about this, how safe would you feel if it were virually i possible to stop who actually did this, or if anyone could cause that much chaos? It'd scare you wouldn't it? Well if everyone is that scared, and if all the other countries saw how "weak" america was, it would be bad. America's "power" would become much less, because in actuallity a huge amount of america's power comes from its fear. If everyone in the world said "Hey america's pissing us off lets get them" it would be bad, but there isn't much chance of that when you belive you're gonna get annihilated. Hell fear is one of the most powerful things in the world, if you belive and fear something will happen enough, to you something somewhat like it will happen eventually and you'll belive it is what you feared.
If someone came up to you and they told you that your penis would shrink in a small amount of time, if you feared it would actually happen, i'm pretty sure your penis would seem to have shrunk to you.
One other problem of your whole country knowing it could get hurt easily is the fact you would most likely stop beliveing in your govornments effectiveness.
If no one is punished will you forget about this in 20 years and act like it didn't happen? Most likely you wouldn't but how many people die in countries around the world and no one is punished, even if they are direclty responsible.
I am very sorry to everyone who was directly affected by this, but those of you who weren't actually affected other than seeing it, i have to say shame on you, look at what happens all around the world due to unfairness and people's bad choices. If you take this personal just because it happened in your country then please look around you, watch one of those Christian children's fund commercials, i know we all don't like to see that, but it's the truth to many people.

Oh yes and think of this one last thing, would you want to die from murder alone in the streets of new york where no one would hear about it, or be one of the most important people in the world for a time? i think i know your answer, i know mine.

My point from James Ellis a 14 year old pagan from canada who is very sorry for those hurt by this tragedy...

PS Just so you all know in canada we do care, we had 3 minutes of silence in every school in canada this week, and in my grade 9 class not one person spoke, and we all seemed sad...

Ice Cool (A canadian)
mail e-mail: ice_cool_acid@hotmail.com

Asking for it???

19.09.2001 23:36

Hmmm... i'm hearing this a lot...that we had it coming...and i think it is alot of B.S.!! YES!! we have done our share to contribute to many deaths around the world, but many times we were asked for help and YES! We do want to promote democracy around the world and increase the amount of countries that we can call friendly (Any country would if they had the ability). But, if we did not intervene, does this mean that people would not die..NO! Did we prevent more deaths than we caused.. I Don't know!
Our beliefs and others beliefs are different, but the fundamentals of all the world's major religions are basically the same. Under Islamic Law, Bin Laden should be executed by his own people..muslims are to promote peace and love...not death and destruction and suicide in the name of Allah!! Man has tainted the written word, in most every religion for their own justifications. Anyway, i am not sure, but i don't believe we would deliberately attack civilians exclusively..that is an act of Total War (the systematic destruction of every resource an enemy country has..including its people)
Timothy McVeigh was harbored by this country, but we did not know his intentions...whatever countries that harbor known terrorists and their ideals (ALL Americans must die!!) and know their intentions, are just aguilty as the perpetrators!!
Oh yeah, the oil thing, gimme a break..yes we do have oil interests, but we have as much, if not more oil in the ground in the U.S. than anywhere in the world..why use ours if we can afford to buy it from somewhere else??? And how long do you think oil will be around as a fuel..last report i had heard was around 40-50 years at current consumption. what will these countries do without oil?? Maybe thats why we have been holding off on developing the Hydrogen fuel celled vehicles, which could be made tomorrow, and run quite well...YES, we do have an oil interest, but the interest is to keep these countries from crashing and creating pure chaos in the middle east.
We are the big bully on the block, and yes sometimes people get hurt trying to keep everyone happy, but some punk just came up behind us with a .22 and shot us in the back!! If he remains on the block, he will be found and dealt with accordingly....Well i jumped around a bit, sorry, but just my 2 cents...i'm venting!! :D

Rick S.
mail e-mail: falcon88@ptd.net

reply to GB and Joshua

19.09.2001 23:53

GB, the sun sets a 4:30 PM in Palestine, its in the middle east remmember, its not the US or Canada. if the sun sets at 4:30 pm, then how can theyre be noon like shadows behind in the footage. When Iraq fired it first scuds at Israel during the guld war, it was around that time in Palestine, that is the footage being discussed.
Joshua, they werent celebrating the US invasion of Kuwait, Mario's article never said that. Usaage of ur common sense should have immediately led u to see that what he meant was celebrating Iraq's invasion of kuwait, and even thats not accurate, they were celebrating the scuds on Israel. Remmember the gulf war was at the end of the first intifada, so Palestinians weren't exactly too fond of Israel then (not that anyone should be of their occupier). I know u could wait to prove urself witty and perceptive, but u should be careful when pointing out other's mistakes, incase, just as now, ur the one that looks dumb.
No one get me wrong about what I'm about to say. Firstly, what happened in the US is an attrocity, one which is unforgetable. I have many religious Muslim friends, their religion clearly forbids them (The quran states), :do not kill women, children or the elderly or any civilian, and do not fight a war unless it is aboslutely ur last hope, and it is in self defence. So clearly, if the suicide bombers of last week were muslim, they sure aint going to heaven according to their religion.
However, there is some truth to the part about the US government, and I clearly distinguish between goverment and people, asking for it. Anyone who has lived in the third world will tell you that American policies there are attrochious. One takes into mind East Timor in the 70s. Vietnam. South America (courtesy of Mr. Kessinger). And last, but not least, the US, and its dictator friends. What really cracked up not a long time ago was the movie the patriot. The movie sits there boasting about how the American's of the day did a great job bombing the Brits out of their country, which the Brits brought them to to start with. Western's boast the killing of "savages", known to us as Native Americans. However, a Hizbollah guerilla bombing an Israeli occupying force convoy in Lebanon is a "terrorist". Funny how freedom fighting becomes terrorism when its done against a US ally. Again, the bombings of last week are in my opinion terrorism, no questions asked, and the doers should fry in hell. But not the above mentioned hizbollah work, if its terrorism, then George Washington and his boys were the founders of modern terrorism for bombing brits out of the US.
My point, to finalize, is that, autrocities committed or sponsored by the US inorder for "globalization to suceed", combined with the brainwashing of the Us masses, such as the hizbollah example, make 3rd world people hate the US, with a passion. The lack of money and education in these parts of the world due to this oppression, have created somewhat irrational people, whom very well might celebrate anything that happens to the US. THe best part of it all is that when Palestinians have been slaughtered for 52 yrs, they carry signs reading bomb Israel, America calls for retraint. The american people can't understand why those savage Palestinians are carrying such signs, they shouldnt no matter what, or else they are savages. Then the Americans undergo the first ever attack on their motherland, and all of a sudden half the population is carrying signs saying "BOMB AFGHANISTAN". U have to love the irony. But u cant blame the average American, as long as they live under the myth that their government is perfectly nice, not seeing the reality that its an institution run by a bunch of power hungry people working for whoever pays the most (also known as lobbying). Do they know about the USS Liberty, how Israel napalmed the hell out of that without the US every doing anything about it, since they were paid to shut up...

oren
mail e-mail: oren_cohen76@hotmail.com

BRAD AND OTHERS

20.09.2001 00:14

FOR GOODNESS SAKES, HAVE ANY OF YOU FOLKS EVER HEARD OF SPELL CHECK???? I AM SICK AND TIRED OR READING YOUR SORRY-LOOKING E-MAILS BESET WITH MISSPELLINGS. THIS IS SAD. MAN-OH-MAN, LOOK AT HOW MANY OF OUR U.S. CITIZENS ARE LITERALLY KILLING THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE. AND IT SEEMS THAT PART OF OUR CRISIS IS LITERACY. SORRY, BUT I CALL 'EM AS I SEE 'EM.

ANYWAY,YES, WE ARE IN SEVERE, PANICKY, NERVE-WRACKING CRISIS. YES, WE WILL PROBABLY BE AT WAR. YES, IF I COULD AFFORD IT, I WOULD BET MY PAYCHECK THAT SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE OVER THERE WERE CELEBRATING. WHY?? BECAUSE THEY PROBABLY KNEW BEFOREHAND THAT THIS WILL OCCUR. WANT TO KNOW WHY? BECAUSE SO MANY OF THEM (INCLUDING THOSE WITHIN MY NEIGHBORHOOD) HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO OPEN "MOM & POP" STORES THAT USUALLY SELL AN ABUNDANCE OF CIGARETTES, LIQUOR, AND NOVELTIES THAT A 5 YEAR OLD CAN DETERMINE IS DRUG PARAPHENALIA. NOT TO MENTION OTHER BUSINESSES THAT THEY HAVE HAD THE LUXURY OF OPENING THAT ALSO OFFER THIS FANTASTIC FREEDOM OF NO TAXES, AND BIG MONEY. WHERE DO YOU THINK THE MAJORITY OF THE DOLLARS ARE SENT?? BACK TO THEIR HOMELAND. THEY ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO PAY TAXES FOR FIVE YEARS, AND WHEN THOSE FIVE YEARS ARE UP, THEY GO "OUT OF BUSINESS", ONLY TO HAVE THAT SAME BUSINESS BOUGHT BY RELATIVE AFTER RELATIVE FOR ANOTHER FIVE YEARS, AND REOPEN UNDER ANOTHER NAME. BEFORE YOU KNOW IT, THEY HAVE LIVED HERE FOR OVER 25 YEARS. NO FEDERAL TAXES. AND YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE? THEY GET A COLLEGE EDUCATION FOR FREE.

DON'T HATE ME FOR KEEPING IT REAL. I JUST PAID OFF MY STUDENT LOANS AFTER GRADUATING WITH A BACHELORS DEGREE IN 1995. NOW I AM SENDING ONE OF MY CHILDREN TO COLLEGE. NO FREE RIDE. NO REAL TAX CUT. I AM A WIDOW OF A VETERAN THAT SERVED IN VIETNAM, ONLY FOR HIM TO DIE TWENTY YEARS LATER FROM THE EFFECTS FROM EXPOSURE OF AGENT ORANGE.

ANOTHER OF OUR SONS, WHO RECEIVED AN HONORABLE DISCHARGE FROM THE MILITARY LAST SUMMER, HAS BEEN CALLED, AND INSTRUCTED TO GET HIS AFFAIRS IN ORDER AND BE READY AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT. SO HERE WE GO AGAIN IN OUR FAMILY. IS MY FAMILY BEING GIVEN A BREAK?? NO. I WILL HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO HIS CHILD THAT IF THE TIME COMES, WHY HER DADDY HAS TO LEAVE.

ENOUGH OF MY PITY PARTY. MY PERSONAL OPINION OF WHAT REALLY NEEDS TO HAPPEN IS TOUGHER IMMIGRATION STANDARDS. PERIOD. NO ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO GO TO FLIGHT SCHOOL AND PAY CASH WITHOUT SOME SORT OF INVESTIGATION. I DON'T CARE IF IT INFRINGES UPON PERSONAL RIGHTS. IF ONE LIFE IS SPARED FROM TERRORISM, THEN IT IS WELL WORTH IT.

EVEN IF IT'S TOO LITTLE, TOO LATE, IT IS SOMETHING TO NOT ONLY THINK ABOUT, BUT ACT UPON. CONTACT YOUR LOCAL, STATE AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT REPRESENTATIVES ON HOW WE CAN BE MORE STRINGENT UPON SO MANY, MANY PEOPLE WHO ENJOY OUR HOMELAND FOR SO MANY YEARS, YET HAVE A PRECONCEIVED MINDSET TO DESTROY THE VERY COUNTRY THAT HAS NOT ONLY HARBORED THEM, BUT GAVE THEM MANY ADVANTAGES THAT WE AS AMERICANS ALWAYS HAD TO DREAM OF, IF NOT FIGHT FOR.

OOOPS! MY BAD. FORGOT TO TURN ON MY SPELLCHECK.

BARB
mail e-mail: BROWN547@HOME.COM

AMANDA

20.09.2001 00:25

TELL IT LIKE IT IS, MY AMERICAN SISTER. WELL VERSED AND TRUTHFUL. RIGHT ON TARGET. TAKE CARE.

BARB
mail e-mail: BROWN547@HOME.COM

no apologies

20.09.2001 00:44

I am disgusted by the apologetic (white?) "liberal" comments about being open minded towards fundamentalist, oppressive peoples. I find that the very people in this country who urge us to be open minded towards bigoted, hateful people because they are foreign are the very ones who attack anything remotely religious or traditional in our own western society-who's being closed minded now? Realize that there are basic standards of human decency that should be respected no matter what culture one is in, and that there is no reason to apologise for pointing out the violations of this standard no matter where one sees it. If the IRANIAN government considers the Taliban and Bin Laden to be extremest nut-cases, that's about all that needs to be said.

e.n. luder
mail e-mail: schluderle@yahoo.de

Valerio Soares / Undercurrents thanks

20.09.2001 00:46

Mr.Soares thanks for going to the trouble of checking the facts on the report. Thanks also to the originator of this story for being honest and following through on it all. I am impressed that he had the courage to state clearly and plainly this retraction.
As far as all the posts lamenting indymedia fact-checking and reliability I have two points to make:
First, Indymedia allows everyone/anyone to post. Including you. It is a rumour mill. It encourages YOU to take responsibility for insisting on whatever level of proof you are comfortable with for claims. It encourages skepticism. It discourages you from thinking that there is some guaranteed truth reported by someone else.
Second, (and this is also a reply to whoever is going to quote the "encourages skepticism" line ironically) there has been at least one deliberate, comparable incident from the "official" meidas of the world: the report of the stealing of incubators from babies during the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. Yes, the international Non-indymedia with their millions of dollars going into "fact-checking" either missed the truth or peddled a deliberate lie.
Moral, don't believe what you read. Demand a coherent, consistent story. Be skeptical of possible motivations. Ask yourself "who will this putative fact benefit?".
-Avatar

Avatar

Amanda, Barb

20.09.2001 00:57

Amanda , you invite us to kiss your American ass. If it is as loathesomely large as most Americans' then I beg to decline. Your tired Gordon Sinclair article from 1973 was posted at a time when your terrorist country had invaded Vietname and was murdering and torturing its citizens. It was also to drop millions of tons of bombs on Cambodia and Laos. What Freedom and Democracy. Tell you what....seeing as you mention your ass I have a suggestion for you: take your head OUT of it.

Barb, it's lovely you want to use a spell-checker. Here's another piece of netiquette for you DON"T USE CAPITALS ALL THE TIME. IT MAKES YOU LOOK CRAZY. IT"S LIKE GREEN INK AND WOBBLY WRITING.

Aside from all that your posts have absolutely nothing to do with the topic on hand. In fact I don't believe you're even Americans. I think you're a couple of 14 year olds trolling. A large number of Americans like myself are repulsed at the history and current on-going crimes that our country is commiting to keep "Amanda's" ass fat. We support the idea of an international criminal court and the trying of Kissinger in that court for war crimes.

Un_American

To the self proclaimed Timekeeper

20.09.2001 01:02

9am in NY is 4pm in Palestine. Ironic, seeing how this whole thread started when someone didn't check their facts. Now play nice.

Marc

You should check your sources.

20.09.2001 02:21

You should really double check your sources before you post something like this. Especially with the way news and rumors travel over the internet. If I were you, I'd feel ashamed of myself right now.

Todd
mail e-mail: insane1@netwurx.net
Homepage: http://www.justplaininsane.net

barb

20.09.2001 03:27

Hey lovely Barb,
Why don't you take adventage of your amazing sens of literacy to learn a little more about history?This would help you to understand the accurate topic debates on this page.
Janet.

janet

Amanda

20.09.2001 03:37

Hey Amanda,

I'm just wondering how come that you are canadian but your ass is american.Unless I've been mistaken this is genetically not possible...yet.Anyhow,it seems that that very same ass is taking over your brain.Nourrish yourself Amanda.. with better brain food.
Janet.

Janet

To Marcio

20.09.2001 04:00

Hey Marcio,

Like most of the people that received you alarming post,I did forward it widely.We are these last few days in such a crisis,that it's more important that ever for all of us to be very careful about what we say and spray around.Before your message I never did forward anything to anyone.
However,I would like to thank you for your honesty and your courage to recognize that you maid a mistake,and apologized.
Could politicians all over the world be able to do the very same
Marie.

Marie

Why I tend to support Israel

20.09.2001 04:02

One point -

If the palestinians had all the guns and tanks like the jews have now,

would there be any jews left in Palestine?

Bill Wingert
mail e-mail: bwingert@nowataprinting.com

Its faked

20.09.2001 05:08

Ok not recycled, but a couple of guys with cameras handing out flags to kids (weren't most of the celebrators kids?!!), giving them candy and probably a tip. Notice, these world-headline worthy images consist of about 10 kids holding their flags upside down and filling their mouths with yummy food, while in the carefully disguised background everyone else gets on with their business without any trace of a smile on their mouths. Wow! The massive celebrations in Palestine! Next time something bad happens there I'll have to check if their news channels are broadcasting evil, celebrating American kids from a McDonalds, munching on Happy Meals and cutting a birthday cake! Or maybe its just the US Media that so rigorously manipulates our world view?

Natha
mail e-mail: ecarner@mail.com

american, best peacekeepers

20.09.2001 05:10

during the past decades america has been trying so hard to being the best peacekeepers among chaotic countries. wow!!! that's an ultimate crap. the destuction of wtc is most probably the doings of america itself. there are fact and theories to support my comments. How can people genius enough to plan an attack of such magnitude on the US, with all those hijackings and precision actions be so stupid?

1. to leave their passports behind in a hotel room?

2. and how did they board the planes without their passports?

3. and why did they leave ARABIC manuals on flying were they doing last minute preparations on how to fly a plane? funny.

4. how could 4 planes get hijacked, forget CIA and FBI, what about airport security?

5. How can people hijack a plane with so ease despite the fact that arabs are usually subjected to strip searches and humiliating body checks are airports in US?

funny but if you people are really, really civilized or rather logical minded, you would have doubted the news or facts given by the medias. this is purely a one sided, unjust accusation. and you wanna talk about exercising justice. these are all in fact to create hatred towards the muslims. maybe one of the main reasons why bush had his wtc done is because of the economy slow down. so in order to restructuring the economy, bush has to stop the us market for at least a week. when market stops, big companies will donate to US government (currently USD40 Billion approved), or capital injection, money pump in. later on, restart the share markets/economy, financial analysis will advise : "this is a right time to buy shares". just take a look at this theory.

to amanda, next time around, equip yourself with extra knowledge and lakh is in another language means million. thought you guys were smart.

so people, please, please, please keep the accusations to yourself and see things from another perspective instead of bombarding senselessly. i am here not to accuse the americans but merely to open your eyes against hipocrisy. lastly, for your infomation, boeing 747,757,767,777 - can take-off/fly/landing without pilot. this is "the mossad" (israel secret agent) tactic..."if you control the media, you can control the people...make them believe".

subsonique

What crap!

20.09.2001 05:54

>1. to leave their passports behind in a hotel room?

They did no such thing; what makes you think they did?

>2. and how did they board the planes without their passports?

They didn't (in fact, one of their passports was found 25 blocks from the World Trade Center

>3. and why did they leave ARABIC manuals on flying were they doing last minute preparations on how to fly a plane? funny.

Not funny, and not surprising. If you were them, wouldn't you be double-checking.

>4. how could 4 planes get hijacked, forget CIA and FBI, what about airport security?

Airport security in the U.S. has been a joke for years.

>5. How can people hijack a plane with so ease despite the fact that arabs are usually subjected to strip searches and humiliating body checks are airports in US?

Again, nonsense. You're the one who's been swallowing propaganda.

>maybe one of the main reasons why bush had his wtc done is because of the economy slow down. so in order to restructuring the economy, bush has to stop the us market for at least a week.

If you really believe this, you are totally insane. More likely you're just a troll.

> lastly, for your infomation, boeing 747,757,767,777 - can take-off/fly/landing without pilot.

I invite you to take a ride on a 747 without a pilot -- happy landings. By the way, there is no 777.

uesjd

An expression of doubt...

20.09.2001 06:52

Hi,

I thought this mail had ended the controversy, but for the fact that I came across the following article in OutlookIndia.com

Pictures That Lie
On the attacks, from Palestine -- a U.S. citizen doing his dissertation research in Palestine shares his experiences and views
By ANDREW CLARNO

[...]A single clip of a few people claiming victory in the streets of Nablus has been repeatedly broadcast on American and European television for the last week [...]

[...]The public relations firms hired by Israel have circulated the images of Palestinians celebrating in Nablus after the initial reports of an attack on the Pentagon [...]

[...]Andy Clarno, currently a doctoral student at the University of Michigan, has been doing dissertation research in Palestine. He was arrested by the Israeli police on Aug 11 at a peaceful protest following the Israeli seizure of the Orient House; his case received some attention in the U.S. press because he is a U.S. citizen. This was, as would be apparent, written before the declaration of ceasefire today [...]

Do check out the full story at:

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20010918&fname=andrew&sid=1

Regards,
Nakul Shenoy
India

Nakul Shenoy
mail e-mail: nakulshenoy@mailmetoday.com
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/nakulshenoy

In responds to "Hey, Firos... what the $%#@ i

20.09.2001 11:16

I solute you!
Thank you.
God Bless the USA!

USAF Vet.
mail e-mail: crazy8in@hotmail.com

Reply to: What crap!

20.09.2001 12:40

You said: " There is no 777 "
LOL!
Go to www.boeing.com and see.

Boeing worker

Anger

20.09.2001 14:35

What occurred last week is undoubtedly a turning point in the history of our world. I watched it live via the BBC News 24 channel and couldn't believe what I was watching, especially as I had just returned from New York and have many friends who either live or work in the Downtown area.

There are a lot of angry voices here, from Americans and from those who see America itself as a rogue nation (and if you consider the relationship between the Bush administration and the rest of the world over the past six months then that is indeed true). The events of last Tuesday have affected us all in a terrible way, but we can hope that good will come out of it. Not a terrible revenge but justice against those who are responsible and I hope that the determination to attempt to wipe out international terrorism will continue beyond whatever events occur over the next few weeks. American Presidents tend to suffer from attention disorder and once there is no more political mileage to be gained from this, then the "crusade" (a disgusting term to use) will more than likely be abandoned.

All western nations have committed terrible crimes against the third world, over the last fifty years America more than the all the others combined. In fact Kissinger is responsible for the greatest number of murders of innocent people in the latter half of the 20th Century and he and Nixon are by far the worst war criminals of that period. Children in Laos are today still being killed by the bombs that those two dropped on behalf of the freedom of the American people, American never declared war on Laos or Cambodia but destroyed the infrastructure of both nations and we all know what followed in Cambodia.

Since he came to power President Bush has openly opposed the rest of the world on many key issues that that are crucially important on a global scale, I would like to think that after this is over, after the rest of our world has supported America during this very dark time, that the United States will begin to act as a responsible member state of this one world and not a bully that can do as it pleases and damn the consequences.

That aside I am pleased to see that the US government pulled in the Nazi government of Israel, who were truly taking an obscene advantage of the situation that had opened up for them. Could peace in Israel be forced out of this terrible event? Sharon came to power through a crisis of escalating violence that he actually instigated personally. Now here's a character who was previously convicted for want of a better phrase "war crimes". He's a thug leading his people along a destructive path without thought or consideration for anyone else.

If you have ever visited Israel then you would understand the predicament that the Palestinian people face, they are third class citizens within their own homeland and are treated as such. Many Jewish friends told me that I would come away hating the Israelis, I didn't hate them, in fact I made many friends during my trip, but it opened my eyes to a situation that you really can't understand unless you see it first hand. But then understanding the situation doesn't mean that a solution can easily be found.

Perhaps this terrible event can change our world, perhaps it can make our politicians more responsible and make them consider working for global benefit rather than insular national ones. Perhaps it can unite the peoples of our world in a way that we had never though possible before, or perhaps it will purely be used by bigots to achieve their own ends.

Last Tuesday my life was devastated in a way that I would never have previously thought possible. I want to believe that through that death and destruction good will actually arise and consequently our world will be a better, safer, more caring place.

Tom Abell
mail e-mail: peccadillo.pictures@virgin.net

Re: To the self proclaimed timekeeper

20.09.2001 15:36

yo, 4pm is about sunset time in palestine, so ..... ;)

anyway, this link is a must read for every american:

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=11901
------
reply to GB and Joshua
by oren 4:53pm Wed Sep 19 '01
address: Canada

oren_cohen76@hotmail.com

GB, the sun sets a 4:30 PM in Palestine, its in the middle east remmember, its not the US or Canada. if the sun sets at 4:30 pm, then how can theyre be noon like shadows behind in the footage. When Iraq fired it first scuds at Israel during the guld war, it was around that time in Palestine, that is the footage being discussed.

To Marc

Lakh

20.09.2001 15:46

One lakh = one hundred thousand.
10 lakh = 1 million.

Muhammad Akbar

Dear Marcio

20.09.2001 16:38

Dear Marcio,
Idiot.
-David Jara, American

David Jara
mail e-mail: violentbob@aol.com

Terrosism?????

20.09.2001 18:06

why is it that when an American or Israeli citizen is murdered its an act of terrorism, but when hundreds of Arabs including children are murdered it is not an act of terrorist?
Answer: The Arabs are killed by the guns and bomb shells from far away by the Israeli police or army which makes it okay becuase they are answering the rocks that are thrown at them when they are illegaly in Arab properties, but the Americans or Israelis are killed by Arab civilians who dont have such fancy tools so they strap bombs around them selves and they blow up. Had the Arabs been shooting back then it would have been a war and that would have been acceptable. The USA was right there when Milosovich was killing innocent people but some how they are not there when the jew are killing innocent people. Is it not Odd that after 50 years of arabs being killed by the israelis the USA has not yet noticed and not take it upon its self to be a piece keeper???????

jack
mail e-mail: jack@hotmail.com

Roots of Terrorism

20.09.2001 18:08

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/opinion/2001/0920/opt1.htm

interesting read...

To David Jara, American

20.09.2001 18:32

reply to GB and Joshua
by oren 4:53pm Wed Sep 19 '01
address: Canada

oren_cohen76@hotmail.com

GB, the sun sets a 4:30 PM in Palestine, its in the middle east remmember, its not the US or Canada. if the sun sets at 4:30 pm, then how can theyre be noon like shadows behind in the footage. When Iraq fired it first scuds at Israel during the guld war, it was around that time in Palestine, that is the footage being discussed.

how can you explain the footage if...

Celebrating in daylight???

20.09.2001 18:51

Why is it daytime in those clips of the palistinians celebrating the WTC attacks?
Think about the question before you answer too quick.
Shortly after the attacks, I heard about the celebrating, later that afternoon I see these clips, and they are in daylight.
Say what you want, but aren't they on the other side of the world?
Instead of challenging someone to prove you wrong, try investigating the footage from the 90's, and prove to us that they are indeed from 9/11/01.
I think that when chalenged by the media, people will deny their claims in fear of beeing expoited.
Fact: the government will not show us what they don't want us to see.
They have been known to create stories to fill in the blanks, or to manipulate the already weakened state of mind.
SHOW ME THE MONEY!

Joseph Scuccimarri
mail e-mail: jjs9003@nyp.org
Homepage: http://infonet.nyp.org

People People People, Let me tell you!!!

20.09.2001 18:51

Remember this everytime American authorities say something, its exactly the opposite! put it this way. When Uss Cole was attacked they called it an act of terrorsim. Let me get that straight!! A combat ship that is powerful enough to destroy half of a nation and I mostlikely armed with nuclear warheads is attacked in unwanted waters and they call it an act of terrorism??? Its a bloody battle ship for god sakes!!! Every sailor on it is there to kill.What did you think that they are out there handing out flower or selling candy for breast cancer??? NO. They are there to KILL. Another thing. There were no civilians on that ship. They are all murderers. A man or a woman who hold a gun in their hand and goes out to kill can also be killed. Is it an act of terrorism because they did not see it coming??? Now I tell you and act of terrorism. The USA shooting down an Iranian Airbus full men, women and children. But of coarse America claims that they "mistook it for a fighter jet". How Redicuously stupid can you be that with a technology that you can read a newspaper from outer space you can't ever tell the difference between a FIGHTER JET and an AIRLINE JET???
Makes you wonder WAS IT AN ACCIDENT??? The answer is NO NO NO. Ok Getting back to good old COLE. So tell me what kind of peace is there being kept with a battle ship???None. Let me put it this way. Its like me pulling a a gun on you and your kids and I tell you, "DONT MIND ME I'M HERE TO MAKE SURE YOU GUYS DON'T HURT EACH OTHER AND IF I HAPPEN TO MISTAKE AN "AIRBUS" FOR A "FIGHTER JET" I WILL SHOOT IT DOWN BECAUSE GOD FORBIDS DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM IS MIGHT BE IN DANGER". Now you tell me who is a coward, people in a battle ship killing the enemy without even getting close or people blowing themselves up because their freedom has been taken away. As a citizen of Yemen, Every Yemenies has the RIGHT to wake up everyday and not see AMERICAN war ships in their beach dumping their crap and a few bombs and an occasional 70 cruise missles on deffenseless people.
ALL together We learned that when the American People are being lied to by the guy the pay to look after them. By the way I feel sorry for every Person who died in the WTC, It brings tears to my eyes this very moment. We are all brothers and sisters, Too bad the govenment does not see it that way.

jack

CNN did not use images form 1991 - Bull

20.09.2001 18:56

In terms of the footage discussed below, one has to also realize that the time in the Middle East is 9 to 10 hours ahead of US Eastern time, which would make it early evening in the Middle East and not noon.

Kevin Kellogg
mail e-mail: phster@hotmail.com

Time Difference

20.09.2001 19:39

What about the time difference? The footage was shown during at time that should have been dark in the Middle East as it would have been nightime yet the footage is in broad daylight!

Catherine

Mind Candy!

20.09.2001 20:20

I just read all of this shit, think about this for a second:
What if in fact america is not the only thing in the mind of all people in the world? I didn't start crying and feeling bad on the 11th i didn't think much actually happened i was in school and i was only told someone blew up the pentagon, and that would have been funny excluding the deaths. Think about it, America is the most powerful country in the world and the pentagon the most secure. maybe those children were at a birthday party or some other celebration, hell it might not seem so huge to them, this shit happening in america, lots of shit happens to people all over the world and it's terrorism. Hell as far as i'm concerned what america is doing now is terrorism, please examine the population of afghanistan, how many people are involved in terrorism? Bin laden and his buddies right? what about the women and children? how do they feel? And america justifies itself by saying afghanistan is harboring terrorists... What if you say live in afghanistan and don't have any say in it at all? Hey maybe bin laden didn't do it even... Wouldn't you gloat a little bit if you were gonna die from the crime anyway? i'd think so, but thus far he's been silent...

Hell maybe it was some group of terrorists we don't know of? As far as i can tell thats would be the only group not to say "We did it!" to all the world.

Oh yah just as a footnote i think i should inform you:

I am canadian but i am still "American" i live in america don't i? everyone in north and south america is american, only difference is the united states have america in their name, i could say canada the usa and mexico etc. are all just as american, but if i did i think i'd get shit on, not only by United states "americans" but also by my fellow canadians, we don't like what your people signify to the world, you ever notice other countries see you as selfish fat slobs? and other countries don't like you? Maybe thats because your country and your govornment are huge superpowered bullies.

The James, who is only affected this by sadness...

==================================================

Terrorism is unjustified killing isn't it? think about those who will be dead when america decides afghanistan isnt enough?

Also just so you all know the whole oil theory of all this is in the fact that it is EXTREMELY contreversial to drill oil in america and if the american public doesn't like something, generally politicians do it quietly or do something else... Afghanistan is a great place for oil...

Ice Cool (A canadian)
mail e-mail: ice_cool_acid@hotmail.com

Lies, LIes , Lies

20.09.2001 21:05

Lies, lies, and more lies. When the WTC was hit, the first people we turned to blame was the Palestinians. Then everything got quiet for like two seconds caues Americans remembered how stupid they were when they accused a Muslim for the Oklahoma bombings, and hey guess what it turned out to be an AMERICAN'S vengence against his own country. Now here is the government and the media telling us that they have proof that it was a few Saudia Arabians and Osama Bin Laden. As i recall none of that proof was shown to us so as far as i am concerned it could all be a whole load of crap that is being to fed to us just so we have an excuse to start a war with Bin Laden. If the United States is so united why aren't we, the citizens, being told the truth? And tell me something how is it that the hundreds of workers that are sadly unable to find most of the bodies in the WTC, but the investigators can find a passport still in tact. Wow i never knew that human flesh and bones burns faster than paper! Oh and F.Y.I just because someone is a Muslim that doesn't mean that they are Arabs and just cause they are Arabs doesn't mean that they are terrorists. If i may i'd like some feed-back from whoever reads this : tell me to the best of your knowledge how many actual Arab countries you know. Hint: Afghanistan... you know the country Osama Bin Laden is hiding in, IS NOT an Arab country.
And about the media footage of the celebrating Palestinians, just another example of how FACTS become rumors then become LIES. Yeah i still haven't decided what i want to believe but if there is no proof that the footage fake, then i'd like to see the footage that is REAL.

Isabella Cordone
mail e-mail: bella963@yahoo.com

Democracy????????

20.09.2001 21:13

What is Democracy???????
Americans believe that they have democracy. But what is this democracy. The freedom of speach?The right to vote?The write to keep your money unlike communism?
Well, deomocracy is nothing. Deomcracy is the biggest nothing in the world. It is so blow out of preportion that it is getting rediculous. Now you might now think that I am just putting democracy down, but if you only listen you will then agree with me.
The actual meaning of democracy is to destroy speach. If you look back in history you will see that revelution comes mostly from places that there is no freedom of speach. Most recent example is Iran. When there is no freedom of speach, then there is no speach. But if a speach does come through it will draw all the attention towards itself. So in America where there is freedom of speach, there is a million speaches everyday and no one really cares about any of it. There are so many people speaking against the government freely that its has turned into a big joke. Its has gotten to a point where they even do it on television.So in this case democracy will prevent revolution.
Another example where revolution is prevented is by VOTE. People are so happy that they have aright to vote and decide who their president will be!!!
They have candidate Schmuk and candidate Loser. THEY ONLY HAVe TWO OPTIONS. This is no different from me asking you if you like to be stabbed or shot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There really is no choice. Once in a while they make it seem important, for exampl in the votes that were lost at last election. DID IT REALLY MATTER????? The answer is NO.
In this way the average American thinks to himself,"gee I really hate bush, next time I ll vote for the other guy". "Instead of going to the street and revolting I will just wait 3 more years".
Do people possibly believe that the American government is telling them everything they know. People in America are only worth the Tax money that they pay. Ant thats that. So next time dont go and vote because it would make less difference than you could even imagine.

jack

Clinotons war against "terrorist"

20.09.2001 21:51

Remember the last time there was a war against terrorists? It only lasted about... ONE DAY!!! Well do you know why.
Let me tell you why.
Well Clinton was so embaressed by the fact that he had sex with Monica, that he decided to do something that he saw on a movie. YES.... WAG THE DOG. In other words he decided to create a diversion to give himself enough time to get his puny penis out of Monica's mouth. SO then over 50 cruise missles were sent over to Afghanistan, and about another 17 were sent to a "PHARMECUTICAL" factory in Sudan. I mean come on, s Pharmecutical factory ????????
How many african children are dying becaues they want some medicine ???????? Which makes me wonder. Maybe USA wants Africa's children to DIE. Then they present no proof what so ever to the world. Secondly the Taliban camps are somewhere in the mountains and how do you know which one is the right camp. Is any camp in the mountains of Afghanistan a Taliban camp with Osama Bin Ladin as its Instructor of terrorism ??????????

AGAIN
let me get this straight. The USA carried out an act of war for one day and then forgot about it. Did they just want to test their cruise misslies or something ??????????
SO Clinton, realizing how stupid he actually was not realizing the fact that the whole world had seen the movie WAG THE DOG, then realized that maybe he should not make any bigger fool out of himself and AMERICA.

Had clinton Choked his chiken instead of feeding it to Monica then there would have been no 50 missles killing innocent people. Then it will be the relatives of these Innocent people that will be the next pilots of our planes and maybe they decide to go off coarse and scrape another sky scraper.

PUT IT THIS WAY
There are people all the way around the world living in the mountains of Afghanistan and their faith is decided by this:
1)Will Bill Clinton screw Monica
2)Will Bill Clinton slap his own monkey
3)Will Hilary Clinton find out about Bill and Monica
4)Will Bill Clinton be influenced by the movie WAG THE DOG

So If you are an Afghan living in the Mountains of Afghanistan and you find out that Bill Clinton was caught having sex with a monkey you better run out of those caves and those mountains because all hell will break loose on you. There might even be World War 3
USA & Allies V.S. Mountains of Afghanistan & Needed Factories in Africa.hala amato man gayidam. God bless

Jack

Hysteron-Proteron

20.09.2001 23:26

"Whatever news I get I'll pass to you."

Given Mr. Carvalho's ass-backwards idea of reporting informed by his astounishing gullibity, it is best that one and all pass on above his offer.

DGB

Damian Bennett
mail e-mail: damian@db-creative.com

Self Proclaimed Timekeepers

21.09.2001 00:44

Somebody said (and I've heard others repeat it)

> yo, 4pm is about sunset time in palestine, so ..... ;)

At Ben-Gurion, Israel, Sunset is predicted to occur at 5:39 PM today (Sept. 20, 2001). At Amman, Jordan, sunset is predicted to occur at 5:34 PM (also today). Both times found online at

http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/40180.html and

http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/40270.html respectively.

Ok, so we're talking about last week, so sunset was a few minutes later. How far is Palestine from Ben-Gurion? From Amman? Palestine (not counting Gaza) is between Israel and Jordan, so sunset in Palestine sould be between 5:34 and 5:39 PM. According to

http://www.worldtimeserver.com/ , Israel, Palestine and Jordan share the same time zone. Where does the 4 PM sunset claim come from?

How far do you have to go to have a 1 1/2 hour difference in sunset? Well, lets look at Cleveland, OH and Boston, MA, which are at opposite ends of the Eastern Time Zone in the US. According to Yahoo! weather, sunset in Cleveland is about 45 minutes later than in Boston. According to Yahoo! maps, the two cities are over 600 miles apart. I'm sorry, Tel Aviv is not 1200 miles away from Palestine.

As for the shadows, has no one heard of artificial lights? Most news cameramen have a light on top of their camera. It is entirely plausible that this footage was recorded between the time of the attack (~9 am EDT or ~4 pm Israel/Palestine/Jordan time) and sunset (~5:30 Israel/Palestine/Jordan time). There's easily an hour and a half in which this could have been done.

I've only provided one link to support my data, but others are available and easily found.

N Berggren
mail e-mail: ngb@earthlink.net

re: BARB

21.09.2001 03:07

Dear BARB,
IndyMedia readers get a chance to read such intelligent and informed comments as yours. It's obvious that your education was money well spent. Pointing out the spelling mistakes of others was really important, too, especially as your letter was grammatical perfection.
Will I see you at the Annual Klan Barbecue this weekend? Our topic is "Lynching in the New Millenium''. Bring your new friend, Amanda.
Keep 'calling 'em as you see 'em, Barb.

p.s. Can you spell SARCASM? How about BIGOTRY?

bsjones
mail e-mail: bsjones@hotmail.com

Your Lie

21.09.2001 05:22

I understand that you have regret and I appreciate it that you, at the very least, told the public the truth. I also understand that you initially took it for truth.

I just hope that, in the future, you conclusively verify information as paramount as this could have been.

Sincerely, Mike Maturo

Mike
mail e-mail: m_maturo@yahoo.com

Reply to what crap

21.09.2001 14:20

Thereis such an aircraft as a Boeing 777. I flew on one to the Carribbean last year.

And NO they can not take off and land with out a pilot. Aircraft technology is good, but not that good!

Thank you!

Donagh

To the person who said there's no Boeing 777

21.09.2001 14:43

just to show how much overseas travelling majority of americans do...;) there's so much more to just the usa...

hmmm

spell check

21.09.2001 16:33

Have you ever heard of lower case?

blip
mail e-mail: blip@nol.com.au

false Videos?

22.09.2001 07:47

I´m sure, those videos are not true: All over the world, there are only these 3 short videos and nothing more? Jerusalem is this time one of the most reportet town in the word, there are hundreds of TV-teams since months an only theese three Videos are availible? Each Suicide-Bomb in Jerusalem is filmed in dozends of versions and shown all over the world but "thousands of demonstrating Arabs" are only filmed by Reuter?
I cant believe, all the other correspondents are sleeping in the afternoon.
I think, we all must be careful in every direction.

By the way, do you believe, an suicide-hijacker takes his samsonite with to the airport, so he can be forgotten and be found after the hijack? And does he need to learn "How to fly an airplane" on his way to the airport and leave his manual in his car?

Greetings

Dieter

Germanlaws
mail e-mail: germanlaws@t-online.de

To Bill Wingert

22.09.2001 09:23

Dear Bill Wingert,

Maybe u don't know that jews and christians have been living, since the 7th century (when Islam showed up), with muslims of arab or turkmen or Kurdist origin, without any problems whatsoever arising between them, except during the crusades, and still!
Jews and christians were present in all the cities of the middle East, and lived in peace without any threats on their lives, and without arabs or muslims having tried to annihilate them.
Take a look at the Andalusian way of life and tolerance for all religions that was featured by a branch of the Omeyad(islamic) empire in south of Spain.
Even until the 20th century when the colonists violated Arab territory by creating a Jewish state, the Arabs did not react immediately, because of their lack of vision or realism or preview of what could happen in the future.
Jews and Christians are and will still live in the Middle East in arab countries, in millions, as in Syria, the Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Yemen, Iran still, and so on and so forth, without any body daring touch them.
A lot of the Palestinians dying for their cause are also Christian.
So please, keep your sole argument of your support to Israel to yourself and read about the history of the Middle East and of Islamic tolerance before publishing it on line.

Cheers

Sig

I am overwhelmed with Grief and Sadness

22.09.2001 14:19

I came to this site seeking answers as to whether or not the CNN footage was false or not. What I found was one vitriolic diatribe of Anti-American sentiment after another. In one sentence some were saying "How can you hate all Palestinians because of what some have done....or How can you hate all Muslims because of what some have done...or how can you hate all Arabs because of what some have done...." and so on and so forth. And then in the next sentence saying "I hate ALL AMERICANS because the USA is led by a handful of politicians or has done this misdeed or that misdeed....and ALL AMERICANS are bad and evil because of this". Whatever you think of the US government, how can you pin its actions on every US citizen, many of who disapprove or know nothing about the policies you to which you object? How can you ask for respect or for tolerance if you are unwilling to give it? Show me one country in the world today that has NEVER EVER done anything wrong or bad or violated someone or oppressed someone or wrongly killed someone. No such country exists. The Israeli's attack the Palestinians, the Spanish attack the Basque, The Russians attack Afghanistan, The Iraqi's invade Kuwait, various African factions try to eradicate each other...And this list goes on from there. There is no justification for the the TERROR ATTACKS on the USA. I have heard very little in the way of compassion or tolerance. This is about nearly 7000 civilians being callously slaughtered. This is about mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, pregnant women, babies as young as 2 months old, the elderly of 70, and 86 and many more. If it can happen in the USA it can happen anywhere. I know many United States citizens who mourn when Palestinians are killed needlessly and senselessly, They do the same when Isrealis are killed, and when children are starving in Afghanistan, or Kurds are murdered, or Chinese students are killed for protesting, and the list goes on. This is about the human condition, this is about mothers mourning for the sons and daughters, it could have just as easily been your mother in mourning; it's about sons and daughters mourning for their parents, it could have just as easily been your children in mourning. This is about husbands and wives who lost their spouses; it could have just as easily been your husband or wife lost. I am blown away by the hatred of all Americans that has been written here. I am an American who has lived several years overseas. I love America, and love the other countries I have lived in as well. To hate all Americans for what a handful of politicians has done is the same as hating all Muslims for the carnage and death caused by the Islamic Jihad, or the Hamas, or Osama Bin Laden or many other self appointed purgers of "infidels." Or hating all Germans for what Hitler did, or for hating all Brits for the countless invasions, colonizations and oppression of peoples that has taken place in the name of the Crown just the last 200 years, or for hating the French for fighting a senseless war in Vietnam for 10 years before the Americans showed up, or for hating all Slavs for what Miloslavic did, or for hating all Russians for what the Soviets did, etc....I don't know what the future holds or what the American military might do. I hope they do what President Bush in his speech Thursday night 20 September 2001 said "that they are fighting a war againsts Terrorist, not against Islam or against all Muslims..." I believe that most of this tragedy could be avoided if there was more compassion and tolerance in the world. Instead it seems that people the world over need any excuse to hate someone else because they are different.
If you're determined to react to your own problems and frustrations by turning your anger and hatred on a particular country or ethnic group, it's easy enough to contrive justification for doing so, but please know that when your hatred and anger shows in words you just seem pathetic, and when it shows in actions...you get what we have seen in these horrible recent weeks.

Connrad

bravo well said

22.09.2001 14:47

sir i commend you bravo what you say is nothing but te truth , that all Americans don't want to face

lailasalah
mail e-mail: lailasalah@hotmail.com

Kiss his American ASS

22.09.2001 15:06

Mr.You have made your point ,but you did not have to be rude and vulger at the end,out of all you were trying to convey this last piece of vulgarety and snobism, will be the only thing i will remember from your response

laila
mail e-mail: lailasalah@hotmail.com

USS liberty

22.09.2001 15:18

NOt only uss liberty, don't forget lord Moynahan tht is if i got his name right ,i would not be surprised to know if they had something to do with the uss cole as well, why the hush hush all of a sudden.

laila
mail e-mail: lailasalah@hotmail.com

terrorism

22.09.2001 15:36

Jack you are not the only one that is asking that question or those questions why why why?you have a good point .
Any one who thinks clearly will understand why.Lets just leave it at that.

laila
mail e-mail: lailasalah@hotmail.com

While We're Talking About Brazilian Claims

22.09.2001 15:42

First let me say, I love Brazil and Brazilians. In an online discussion probably two years ago now, I learned that some in Brazil claim a US submarine torpedoed a Brazilian ship off Brazil's coast in order to drag Brazil into WWII. The idea was to claim the ship was sunk by the Germans. The people online at the time had last names of German origin. I challenged their information. They never provided any basis or other substance. If anyone knows of more information on this topic, I'd like to read about it. As always, don't believe everything you read, particularly online.

Ze Carioca
mail e-mail: zecarioca@stirlinglaw.com

hate for america

22.09.2001 16:08

I don't think that you understood what was ment by the peoples response to this recent tragedy .People do not hate Americans as a people they hate the policy of the USA government,WHEN most nations are in accord at the UN against a certain cause mainly pertaining to Israel, You get an American Veto to any resolution, is that democracy?
If you are realy a true democracy then you should listen to what the rest of the world has to say, the problem is that you consider yourselves as masters of the universe,Yes you do help other nations you give aid , but you keep braging about it and reminding all of us about it , when you are charitable you should not expect anything in return,in Isllam there is a saying your left hand should not see what your right hand is giving,that is when you give something to an unfortunate person you don't go about saying i gave so and so that amount or cloth or food , you would have spoiled the whole concept of charity.Another point,you give aid to other countries , because you expect something in return oil rights army basis etc in this region,for if you were not getting anything in return you would have spent this money in your own backyard, Sir charity starts at home.Sir stop providing arms and lining your pockets and let them kill one another with stones

laila
mail e-mail: lailasalah@hotmail.com

Anit-American Sentiments

22.09.2001 18:03

I find it amazing that there are so many enlightned people that live outside the U.S. that know so much about America. I especially love the attitude that over 6,000 people died because "we had it coming".

The majority of Americans have a "live and let live" attitude towards life. You can live your life following any belief system that attracts you and as long as it doesn't hurt other people. Contrast this to the beliefs of fundamentalist Muslems. Their women are never allowed to show their face in public and are not even allowed to attend schools. Then they look around at the poverty they live in as a result of their represive society and hate us because of both our freedoms and affluence. They then use the Koran to justify their "Holy war", and their solution is to kill thousands of innocent people.

So maybe Americans did "have it coming". All of that personal freedome and choice can't be for the greater good .

Just be sure to cover up before you go outside, girls.

Robert

To Tom Kish

22.09.2001 20:19

I don't agree that it would have been night time in Palestine when the attack took place. I live in India and it was around 5.30 pm when the the WTC was first attacked. It would have been roughly 3 pm in Palestine, which would have made it broad daylight in my opinion.

Anita Bhatia
mail e-mail: anita_bhatia@hotmail.com

So-called Muslims

22.09.2001 20:25

Mr Markowitz seems to miss the sarcasm Leonard actually had in mind :-) if I read him right.

And your phrase 'so called Muslims' hits the nail on the head.

Let me quote Qaradawi (Wednesday):

"Islam [..] considers the attack against innocent human beings a grave sin, this is backed by the Qur'anic verse which reads:

Who so ever kills a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he has killed all mankind, and who so ever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind," (Al-Ma'dah:32).

"The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, is reported to have said, 'A believer remains within the scope of his religion as long as he doesn't kill another person illegally',"

Qaradawi, probably the single most respected Muslim scholar around today, made a very clear statement on the Islamic position, on Wednesday immediately after the NY tragedy.

Many muslims have great antipathy with the USA because of it's foreign policy, but Qaradawi's references underline that we should not tar its citizens the same colour as its policy makers.

Here is the text, with paragraph breaks inserted by me to make it a little easier to digest. Sorry for taking up so much screen space..

--Fazl

Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi Condemns Attacks Against Civilians: Forbidden in Islam

DOHA, Qatar, Sept 13 (IslamOnline & News Agencies) - Renowned Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi denounced the attacks against civilians in the U.S. Tuesday and encouraged Muslims to donate blood to the victims of the attack.

In response to the bloody attack against civilians in the U.S., Sheikh Yusuf issued a statement Wednesday saying that:

"Our hearts bleed for the attacks that has targeted the World Trade Center [WTC], as well as other institutions in the United States despite our strong oppositions to the American biased policy towards Israel on the military, political and economic fronts.

"Islam, the religion of tolerance, holds the human soul in high esteem, and considers the attack against innocent human beings a grave sin, this is backed by the Qur'anic verse which reads:

Who so ever kills a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he has killed all mankind, and who so ever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind," (Al-Ma'dah:32).

"The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, is reported to have said, 'A believer remains within the scope of his religion as long as he doesn't kill another person illegally'," the prominent scholar said.

He added that haphazard killing where the rough is taken with the smooth and where innocents are killed along with wrongdoers is totally forbidden in Islam. No one, as far as Islam is concerned, is held responsible for another's actions. Upon seeing a woman killed in the battlefield, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, denied [FAZL: THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN TRANSLATED 'rejected' IMHO] the act and said: "That woman shouldn't have been killed anyway!".

Even in times of war, Muslims are not allowed to kill anybody save the one who is indulged in face-to-face confrontation with them. They are not allowed to kill women, old persons, children, or even a monk in his religious seclusion.

Qaradawi then asserted that is why killing hundreds of helpless civilians who have nothing to do with the decision-making process and are striving hard to earn their daily bread, such as the victims of the latest explosions in America, is a heinous crime in Islam. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, is reported to have stated that a woman was qualified to enter Hell because of the cat she locked up to death. [FAZL: A HADITH ABOUT A WOMAN WHO LOCKED UP A CAT, NEITHER FED IT NOR ALLOWED IT FREEDOM TO CATCH ITS OWN FOOD.]

"If such is the ruling applied in protecting animals, no doubt, aggression against human beings, a fortiori, deserves greater protection, for human beings are honored by Allah Almighty and are His vicegerents on earth," he added.

Al Qaradawi said, "we Arab Muslims are the most affected by the grave consequences of hostile attack on man and life. We share the suffering experienced by innocent Palestinians at the hands of the tyrannical Jewish entity who raze the Palestinian homes to the ground, set fire to their tilth, kill them cold-bloodedly, and leave innocent orphans wailing behind.

"With this in mind, the daily life in Palestine has become a permanent memorial gathering. When Palestinians face such unjust aggression, they tend to stem bloodletting and destruction and not to claim the lives of innocent civilians."

"I categorically go against a committed Muslim's embarking on such attacks. Islam never allows a Muslim to kill the innocent and the helpless.

"If such attacks were carried out by a Muslim - as some biased groups claim - then we, in the name of our religion, deny [FAZL: READ 'reject'] the act and incriminate the perpetrator. We do confirm that the aggressor deserves the deterrent punishment irrespective of his religion, race or gender," he added.

"What we warn against, even if becomes a reality, is to hold a whole nation accountable for a crime carried out by a limited number of people or to characterize a certain religion as a faith giving support to violence and terrorism," Qaradawi said.

Qaradawi clarified that when the well-known Oklahoma incident was carried out by a Christian American, who was driven by a personal interests, Christianity, America or even the Christian world, were not accused of the attack because a Christian masterminded it.

"I have been asked several questions on TV programs and on public lectures about the martyr operations outside the Palestinian territories, and I always answer that I do agree with those who do not allow such martyr operations to be carried out outside the Palestinian territories.

"Instead we should concentrate on facing the occupying enemy directly. It is not permissible, as far as Islam is concerned, to shift confrontation outside the Palestinian territories. This is backed by the Qur'anic verse that reads: "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loves not, aggressors," the renowned Muslim scholar concluded.

Fazl
mail e-mail: fazl at geocities dot com

Re: Its faked

22.09.2001 20:46

Somehow, I do not think that it was faked. There were not only children in the footage, some women and men in cars all making the victory sign and displaying their delight.

Unfortunately, the circumstances under which the Palestinians live have created an environment just right for espousing the fundamentalist cause.

Having said that, I would like to stress that if the boot were on the other foot and the Palestinians were in the position of the Israelis, I gravely doubt that there would be any Jews left in that area.

The Palestinian problem, in my opinion was the creation of the Arab world - when Israel was carved out of Tranjordania. It was generally believed that being surrounded by enemies on every side, that the Israelis would relinquish their claims to the land they had been given and that Palestine would be created in that spot.

This has not happened. The terrorism that Israel experienced during the 70's when Yasser Arafat wreaked his own form of havoc on the Israeli people through hijackings, the slaughter of the entire Israeli delegation to the Munich Olympic games led to the hardened stance taken by the Israeli government.

Dialogue will be needed to come to some form of agreement that is binding on both sides - Israel and Palestine.

As the USA is seen as the protector of Israel, it is therefore viewed with hostility by the people of Palestine - given their situation, and the hostility they harbour, it seems a fairly realistic reaction to the news of the WTC attack on September 11th 2001.

Anita Bhatia
mail e-mail: anita_bhatia@hotmail.com

true or fake-who care!?!?

23.09.2001 04:49

Does it really matter if the footage of palestinian children and some adults celebrating in the streets was real or faked? I know in Australia and I have read reports from america that when the US bombed iraq and libya some people on university campuses and the like cheered when they heard the news. Perhaps there was some celebration as happens in most nations when an enemy is attacked. Perhaps at the time the footage was taken the information reaching palestine was that america had been attacked with no information about the magnitude or scale of the attack reaching the celebrating children at that time.

the real issue therefore is the magnitude of the atttack, not that it occured. this is not a new event. we have been seeing these sort of images for years. we have all seen wailing and distressed women in veils cradling their dead husbands or children. we have all seen angry and distressed men and women from eastern europe digging in rubble and trying to save their friends and family. this time it the wailing, crying, religious exhultations and images of people that simply sound and look like english speaking americans / australians / british.

i am certain we are going so more of these images as well. the war on terrorism is bound to fail as it does not even attempt to look at the causes of terrorism. how can american forces attempt to destroy ideals and remove generations of frustration with weapons. if they aim to root out terrorism in all countries will they attack Saudi Arabia, Palestine, Israel, the basque region of spain, the phillipines, parts of Japan, Iran, Iraq, Eqypt and its own people as the USA itself acted to train and support people like osama bin laden, saddam hussein, manuel noriega and the list goes on

arne c
mail e-mail: arnec@hotkey.net.au

CNN did not use images form 1991

23.09.2001 10:25

True the footage was live on Sep 11, but it looked like an isolated incident in Palestine. There was no need to show the towers burning and Pals celebrating side by side on the same screen. This is adding fuel to the fire. CNN is obviously biased.

Syed Murtaza
mail e-mail: smurtaza@global.com.kw
Homepage: http://globalinv.net

IT IS NOT ALL RELATIVE AS LEONARD CLAIMS

23.09.2001 11:27

I keep reading or listening to these intelectuallist, post-modernistic, relativistic arguments about cultural tolerance and cannot take any more of this bul...t! above all specific ethno cultures which we often get locked into, there lies something more interestuing and more noble called "universal" or "human" culture. If we are to follow these relativistic views such as "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", then decent thought, indeed decent life become impossible. So yes my friend there are such thing as abosolute values that lie above Afghani, arab, israeli, western, etc., cultures and dont blame the west for everything please...(by the way I am ARAB , so dont accuse me of being just another jewish propgandist...

William

Stick to the facts!

23.09.2001 13:26

The Palestinians are under stress - that is true.

But they have a strange habit of choosing the "wrong" side.
In WWII they chose Hitler. In the Gulf War they chose Sadam. Now they side with Bin-Laden.

Suicide Attacks on civilians is the method of choice for many Palestinian Organizations. These killings are WRONG!
Regardless of the motives beind the attacks in the middle-east - if you can find reason for them than you'll probably find reason in the attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon too!

By making excuses (Jenin) or blaming someone else (CNN) the Palestinian society is prevented from facing difficult issues in its own culture. Issues that must be faced as it moves towards having a Palestinian State.

May peace be with you all!

Amir

war will never been a solution for terrorism

23.09.2001 14:46

hello 23°rd president,

war will never be a solution for terrorism!!!
please think about it!!!

moushD
mail e-mail: moushD@web.de
Homepage: http://www.creatio.de

In WWII they chose Hitler??!

23.09.2001 15:37

The Palestinians chose Hitler in WWII? Where do you get your historical facts? The OTTOMAN EMPIRE, which ruled Palestine, sided with Hitler. The Ottoman Empire was based in what is now modern Turkey and it is an irony of history that Turkey was the only Middle East country to emerge from WWII as an independent state. The Palestinians were too busy dealing with Jewish terrorist gangs (most of the well known Israeli leadership were members of those gangs - Shamir, Begin, and most likely Sharon among others) who committed many terrorist acts against the civilians in Palestine. Their achievements included bombing the British admistration at the King David Hotel and assasinating a Swedish UN appointed mediator who was trying to sort out the mess. So you could argue that the Palestinians learned terrorist tactics from them.

Just to settle the time issue (I live in Egypt), at that time of day the shadows should have been longer as it was heading towards twilight (although still daylight). More to the point is the comment that the scene consisted of mostly children and a total of about 20 people and nobody else has been filmed. I watch BBC not CNN (which is notoriously biased - not necessarily inaccurate, just masters at omitting relevant information or slanting news stories) and there was no mention made of censorship of other new coverage by the Palestinians. SO the only scenes were obviously filmed VERY early on, within a few hours and although they do get CNN on the West Bank, this is satellite television, not something that the majority can afford, and certainly not in public access streets.

My own take is that most likely it was real, but before the magnitude of the tragedy was determined. Certainly not in reaction to watching those towers come down and certainly not representive. Conclusion, still misinformation.

Iman
mail e-mail: imantufts@hotmail.com

What About Hiroshima & Nagasaki?

23.09.2001 19:04

I keep hearing people say that what happened in New York was the worst terrorist attack in history. To them I want to ask: What about Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Yes I am aware that the main difference is that a state of openly declared war existed between the two nations, and one can argue till the cows come home as to whether or not the means justified the ends--did the atomic bombing of these civilians prevent further bloodshed and bring a quicker end to WWII in the Pacific? Did such action serve a greater good? etc.

But the fact remains that the U.S. did not "warn" Japan that the U.S. had developed and would use these bombs to kill hundreds of thousands of civilians unless Japan surrendered, similarly as the NYC terrorists did not (apparently) warn U.S. that they were preparing to commit mass slaughter of civilians on U.S. soil.

Anyway--just wanted to put this out as some food for thought...

BDub

On CNN coverage

23.09.2001 20:00

Generally speaking, this site is more anti Israel propaganda. Does Israel ever do anything right in your book, or is the "only right for Israel" in you book to keep shrinking herself out of existence

Khalid
mail e-mail: faraday@netvision.net.il

My Email To President George Bush

23.09.2001 21:20

I am an American citizen and this email expresses my views the best:

Dear Mr. President George W. Bush,
Please exercise caution and wisdom in your
actions in the Middle East. I don't feel bombing
Afghanistan is the answer. It may not be a popular
position, but we probably do support Israel too much.
Now it's happening here what happens in Israel and
Palestine every day. I agree with you about us not
persecuting Sikh Americans.
Since I have a right to express my views, I'll
state my feelings/views concerning my perception of
what I see going on. I don't feel our Middle East
foreign policy is exactly moral. We sell guns to
Israel and give millions (if not billions) of dollars
to the Arab world by buying oil. I feel we're helping
to perpetuate an undeclared war and are indirectly
responsible for genocide.
In your speech on TV, you quoted the Koran and
how "terrible evil begets evil." The Koran can work
both ways though. I think you read it to imply that
we'll wreck evil on those who did this, but it makes
me wonder what "terrible evil" we've wrecked in the
Middle East to make someone want to do this to us,
because I believe people are basically good and no one
would do this for lack of something better to do. A
CNN Analyst said that bin Laden is not a madman and
that he has a political agenda.
I don't mean to sound un-American. I love this
country. Women have the most rights here (at least
formally), than in any other country in the world. I
learned this for a fact when I studied abroad in
Vienna, Austria, in 1996. I know you have pressure on
you to blame someone and I know you want justice.
But, lamentably, maybe this was the only way to get us
to reassess our foreign policy in the Middle East (at
least now we're talking about it). I'm not saying we
should agree to the Taliban's demands either. The way
they're treating women in that deplorable. I'm not
sure where the middle ground in all of this is and I
feel certain that there are things that have gone on
that the general public is not aware of.
This conflict between Israel and Palestine makes
me think of those Protestants who were planted in
northern Ireland by that King (I believe). Those
people don't get along and it's a shame religion tends
to be so divisive. The Middle East is the crossroads
of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Why everyone is
ignoring their own religious teachings I can't say. I
talked to a Palestinian graduate student here in
America once and he told me that the UN never should
have created Israel as a state.
I heard that the US vetoed a resolution of the UN
to send in _observers_ to see how the situation really
is between Israel and Palestine. I also heard that we
walked out of that racism conference at the UN after
Israel got offended and walked out. The UN declared
that Israel was a "racist" country. If all the
nations of the world are saying this, it's probably
true. It could've been the beginning of a productive
dialogue, but instead Israel and the US got up and
left and that doesn't show resolve to solve anything.
I think it would be wise for us to find an
alternative energy source, because I feel our economic
interests in the Middle East are clouding the
formation of our policies there.
I know it's natural to want to strike back when
someone has hurt you. If we're really a Christian
nation, then let's "turn the other cheek" and really
try to see the big picture of things. In my AP
American History class, we learned that the Native
Americans were treated the way they were because the
White Man was "technologically superior." Everyone
must concede that Israel is "technologically superior"
to Palestine. I've heard that Israeli soldiers shoot
Palestinian children who throw rocks at them. I have
a masters in psychology and I believe the whole
psychological mindset between these people needs to
change. Sounds kinda like the Hatfields and McCoys to
me.
Gandhi once said that we should think of the
moral consequences of all our actions. Without a gun
or brawl, he had the power to make the British
government give India her freedom and independence.
So, it can truly be amazing what one individual can
do. We are all people first, even before our
religious faith. And in my European travels, I have
found that people basically want the same things.
The Arabs are an intelligent people. I did a
research paper on them in high school and they were
actually _ahead_ of us at the time of the Crusades.
I've studied a little of every major religion and
Islamic culture is a reflection of the country in
which it is found in. I talked to a Muslim exchange
student from Yugoslavia and he told me that the way
women are treated in his faith is also a reflection of
where those women are located. He also thought that
that movie Not Without My Daughter was propaganda.
I'm glad to see you talking to world leaders and
traveling around the world. I read in the Bible that
King Solomon was a very wise king. That was
unexpected and kinda neat how he found out who that
baby's real mother was. I wish you well. You are in
a position of leadership and I'm not really sure that
I would want it. I just wonder if we're denying to
other countries what we value for our own citizens.
For example, I read that we don't want our foreign aid
dollars to be used for abortion in other countries,
yet American women have the right to abortion in this
country. And Pat Robertson and that other Falwell guy
are very narrow minded, incidentally, if you ask me.
Take care and not only do what is best for us,
but do what is best for all concerned. Doing so is
applying true wisdom. I think we should go to the UN
and talk. Talking may not seem like much, but it's
through verbal and written communication that you
unlock the hearts of a people. Shalom.

Sincerely,
Leeann R. Mraovich, M.S.
---
An interesting quote:
"One nation's terrorism is another nation's patriotism."

Reactions? Where is the middle ground in all of this?

Leeann
mail e-mail: fugitivescholar@yahoo.com
Homepage: http://www.angelfire.com/pa/roses/index.html

An Interesting View from Afghanistan

23.09.2001 21:26

An interesting article by Tamim Ansary, a writer and
columnist in San Francisco who is a native of Afghanistan.
-----
I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing
Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO
Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing
innocent people, people who had nothing to do with
this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept
collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later
I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the
belly to do what must be done."
And I thought about the issues being raised especially
hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though
I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of
what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who
will listen how it all looks from where I'm
standing.
I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin
Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people
were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I
agree that something must be done about those
monsters.
But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan.
They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The
Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took
over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political
criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think
Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And
when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the
Jews in the concentration camps."
It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do
with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the
perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come
in there, takeout the Taliban and clear out the rat's
nest of international thugs holed up in their country.
Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow
the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved,
exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years
ago, the United Nations estimated that there are
500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country
with no economy, no food.
There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been
burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is
littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed
by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the
Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.
We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan
back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done.
The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans
suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses?
Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done.
Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their
infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health
care? Too late. Someone already did all that.
New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs.
Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In
today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only
they have the means to move around. They'd slip away
and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those
disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't
even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and
dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the
criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it
would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by
raping once again the people they've been raping all
this time So what else is there? What can be done, then?
Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what
needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of
having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the
belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing
innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand.
What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And
not just because some Americans would die fighting
their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout.
It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any
troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through
Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest
of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim
nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're
flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.
And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's
exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read
his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He
really believes Islam would beat the west. It might
seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the
world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion
soldiers.
If the west wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's
a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's
even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's
probably wrong, in the end the West would win,
whatever that would mean, but the war would last
for years and millions would die, not just theirs but
ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does.
Anyone else?

-Tamim Ansary

Leeann
mail e-mail: fugitivescholar@yahoo.com
Homepage: http://www.angelfire.com/pa/roses/index.html

URL of USS Liberty's Attack by Israel

23.09.2001 21:31

I've signed the petition on this website for a full public Congressional investigation. It has almost 6,000 signatures--almost as many killed in the attacks in NYC and DC. If you see the site below and have the same convictions, I invite you to do the same. I'm not sure if you have to be a US citizen to sign this petition or not. If the world demands an investigation though, one will probably be more likely to happen. (?)

http://208.56.153.48/jim/ussliberty/

Take care and know I wish everyone well.

Sincerely,
Leeann R. Mraovich, M.S.

Leeann
mail e-mail: fugitivescholar@yahoo.com
Homepage: http://www.angelfire.com/pa/roses/index.html

It's All Relative eh?

23.09.2001 22:16

Anyone who has studied these cultures knows that carrying ceremonial daggers, firing guns at weddings, ritually slaughtering sheep and executing nonbelievers are time-hallowed ways of cultural expression in such societies that we so unthinkingly call "primitive."

If you really think that executing people who don't believe in a specific cause/religion/etc. by the people of that specific cause, etc. is excusable because it is a way of cultural expression, then you're just as bad as the terrorists.
If we made these kind of practices acceptable, then anyone could walk down the street in any country, kill someone of different beliefs, claim it was "CULTURAL EXPRESSION" and get off!!
Do you also agree that it was acceptable for Bin Laden (or whoever is responsible) to kill thousands of people because he hates the Americans? Personally, I am not particular to them, but would it be right for me to slaughter them because of that dislike?
There is acceptance of peoples beliefs and practices, but when they begin to infringe upon other people's lives and freedoms, it becomes oppression and that is wrong!

Anyway, if I've mistaken the point you were trying to make, I retract, but if not, you should seriously rethink your values.

Kelly
mail e-mail: mydogdeuce@hotmail.com

Re: Hey Firos....what the......

23.09.2001 22:45

Hey Amanda,
I agree about the innocence of the American people. But, I also see the innocent people of a lot of other countries suffering because of actions by the US (and other countries). I'm not trying to lay blame here, but I think that a lot of countries feel it's the US's turn to suffer. Here's something that I thought you and others might be interested in:

The following, from Tamim Ansary, a brilliant Afghani-American writer, is the most accurate analysis to date, of the situation we're facing.

I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but
"we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done." And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and, even though I've lived here for 35 years, I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will
listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters. But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. he Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazi SS. When you think Bin Laden, think
Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity.
They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rat's nest of international thugs holed up in their country. Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all
destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. someone already did all that. New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat,
only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making a common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time.

So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that, folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of
Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the West. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the
West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the West wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose; even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?

~ Tamim Ansary

Kelly
mail e-mail: mydogdeuce@hotmail.com

Is there a number or email I can contact CNN?

24.09.2001 03:07

On September 11, a Tragedy Struck. It was the result of a Race War between Israel and the Middle Eastern Nations. And, the United States was caught in the middle and suffered Extreme Damages. There are 2 questions that ALL Americans should be concerned with regarding this Tragedy. WHO were the people, or countries, responsible for these terrible deeds, but most importantly WHY did it happen. The Media has focused solely on the WHO did it. Very little attention has been spent on the WHY it was done. How can we Stop all this? 1st, get out of Bed with the Jews. 2nd, Get rid of Dishonest Politicians that favor Jewish Aid of FIVE BILLION dollars (5,000,000,000) a year of US Taxpayers money and 3rd, Mind our own Business.

CNN is biased

Must read for all Americans

24.09.2001 03:45

http://www.davidduke.org/writings/09-17-01.shtml

An American

Re hey firos

24.09.2001 07:26

if as you say you have no control of what the american government does then by the same token what control do the iraqis have over their leader. why should they be penalised - and so brutally - just because the american govt doesn't like saddam. your argument wreaks of double-standards. as for kissing your american ass is it american culture to be so crass.

ambika
mail e-mail: ambika@bworthsindia.com

Americans deserve it

24.09.2001 10:13

I like the way everyone thinks that the World Trade Centre incident is all about Americans. You all forget (though it has been pointed out before on this message board) that 1200 non-Americans, including ARABS and MUSLIMS, died too. But I guess they were willing sacrifices for the punishment that America so richly deserves. Or maybe they were equally worthy of punishment for having stepped onto American soil.

I hate American foreign policy too, but I happened to be in America on September 11th. I guess that I could have died in a terrorist attack and everyone would say that justice was done.

pennylane
mail e-mail: pulpsong@hotmail.com

Témoignage

24.09.2001 10:58

bonjour

excusez moi de m'exprimer en français dans un site anglophone. mon niveau de maitise de l'anglais et faible, et vu l'importance des propos que je vais dire, il m'est aparue plus commode de m'exprimer en français.

d'abord je m'incline devant la tragédie qu'a subbis l'Amérique. c'est horrible. mais est ce suffisant pour déclancher une guerre. une guerre que veut avant tous Izraêl pour faire fléchir ces adverssaire arabes et avoir plus de soutien des occidanteaux pour les missions de génocide qu'elle pratique dans des territoires occupées.

une guerre que veut george Bush, car c'est le seul moyen pour lui d'avoir un maximum de soutien des Américais, face a une élection des plus contrevercées aux Etats-unis.

une guerre qui se déssine grace a l'épocrisie des autres pays face au états unis. et l'intervention de Bush "Qui n'est pas avec nous est contre nous" ne laisse perssone indifférent.

je me demande comment l'Europe qui est contre lma peine de mort causionne une telle vengeance aveugle d'un pays qui ne respecte pas le droit a la vie même a ces citoyen. (et là je parle de l'Amérique et pas de l'Afghanistan, car pour moi il n'ya pas de diffirence entre couper une tête et la chaise électrique)

quelque soit les objectifs. une guerre est synoyme de vectimes. des civiles vont mourrir. combient de mort encore veut Bush. il y a eu peut être 5000 aus états unis. mais il y a aussi 1 million en Irak. 200000 en Algérie. des millions au congo. au Rowanda... est ce qu'un Américain veaut mieu pour le monde qu'un africain. est ce qu'on doit pleurer pour un mort au état-unis et rire pour un mort en Afganistan.

moi je pleur pour tous les mort, et je prie pour tous les vivant. quelques soit leurs pays.

revenant aux Médias. des les premiéres heurs de l'attentas. CNN achercher le sensationelle. être sur place c'est leurs job. prés comme tous bon média chercher de la pub tant qu'on fait de l'audiance. a défaut de publicités commerciales qui ne sont pas appropriées CNN vend son antennes a des cercles politiques et diplomatiques. ces écpaces qui sont exploitées par l'administartion fédérale ou par des parties extérieurs (Izraêl par exemple). ce qui a pour effet d'orenter l'oppignons vers des options politiques souhaitable.

j'ai vus ces pratiques dans d'autres médias. mais je suis convaicu que CNN jous le même jeu.

sur ceux. je prie pour que nous ayons un peut de sagesse pour éviter de tuer des innosant.

Lyes

lyes
mail e-mail: kheloui@chez.com

who taught Palestinians to celebrate?

24.09.2001 15:17

Didn't the Americans celebrate the war in Vietnam?
Didn't they celebrate what they calld 'NY Victory Parade" after the massacre of 200.000 Iraqis??!!
The real issue is not whether Palestinians celebrated or not the issue is why if they did at all.

A quote from Martin Amis:

"...It will also be horribly difficult and painful for Americans to absorb the fact that they are hated, and hated intelligibly. How many of them know, for example, that their government has destroyed at least 5% of the Iraqi population? How many of them then transfer that figure to America (and come up with 14m)? ..."

Martin Amis - 18 Sep 2001

http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,553638,00.html

------------------------

Alfawzi
mail e-mail: alfawzi@hotmail.com

an eye for an eye

24.09.2001 17:08

i agree so much that the americans are getting what they're asking for. its an eye opener for them but due to their arrogance and so called principles, they turn their backs on the truth and instead show off their military power by attacking the weak, without evidence they point the finger at the next person who happens to have a different opinion to their views.

ariyana ahmad
mail e-mail: ariahmad@hotmail.com
Homepage: none

Difficult to accept

24.09.2001 19:05

It would seem that each time a Palestinian or Arabist opens his or her mouth to refute the 'unfair treatment' of Palestinians in the media regarding this crisis (and several others), they are quickly and decisively disproven. Immediately, another explanation is concocted; "It was old footage! A deliberate fraud and slander! I mean, we were celebrating the Israeli withdrawal! I mean, we were so oppressed by the filthy Jews that we were afraid to leave the house, so we couldn't celebrate in the streets!"

For heaven's sake, has it ever occured to anyone that perhaps the reason most here in the States give shorter and shorter shrift to the Arab community at large is for reasons like those described above? Why not stop obfuscating and CYA-ing (CYA = Covering Your Ass), and own up to certain truths? Are all Arabs terrorists? Of course not, but by the same token each time a terrorist suspect is arrested (10 in my town alone), it is like pulling teeth. No cooperatioin is offered by the community, no blame is accepted by the family or anyone. It is always an anti-Islamic, racist plot (and it is these people that can turn this into a war on Islam - not Bush or Blair). Additionally, I see Americans of all stripes owning up to shameful gaffes in our foreign policy both past and present; I know hundreds of Israelis, and Jews in general, who practically trip over themselves to support Palestinian causes, to decry their hawkish government, and doubt their own claim to their own land. However, I never see Palestinians pursuing anything but the rigid, absolutist line of Islamic mores and anti-Jewish rhetoric and action; it's Hezbollah's way or the highway, if you will.

The above statements do not apply to all Arabs, but they did nothing to disprove them until the recent atrocity. Anti Arab sentiment is not the product of recent outrage, but it's unfettered expression has been given 'justification' in light of 11/9 and circumstances described above. If the explanation is that they were cowed by teh community at large, is their cowardice an excuse? It doesn't seem to be for thousands of non-muslim Israelis and Americans and other victims of Muslim extremists from Algeria to Aceh.

Todd Barmann
mail e-mail: tibitte@yahoo.com

CNN vs. Carvalho - What are the facts?

24.09.2001 22:38

Could you please re-publish his original email?
The one I saw (not on this site) referred to a MALE teacher of his, possibly by the name of "Nikos". Now we have the official response by Reuters/CNN, quoting information from UNICAMP (not Carvalho himself) that the teacher worked at a DIFFERENT university, yet your own message from Carvalho states that he re-approached HIS own FEMALE teacher regarding the information she originally provided. As CNN also warn that messages purporting to come from Carvalho on other sites, and "anything posted by him after 15th September" may be non-genuine, I am getting more and more intrigued.

Seeker

Language, the insidious weapon.

25.09.2001 16:38

Unfortunately, the kind of rhetoric that Mr. Barmann chooses to embrace, serves only to divide people, not bring people towards tolerance, understanding, and empathy---all very crucial ingredients to any recipe for greater peace and less violence. Sadly, the language is divisive and angry, the same language that he perhaps himself disfavors in others.

I would ask all of us, to please reflect upon our own character and behavior, as they often come through in our words. All of us, myself included, view the world through filters, and I'm not necessarily referring to external filters (though there are a plethora of these as I am sure we are all aware of). Thus, when pointing a finger of malevolent blame in the guise of corrective reasoning, be accurate, deliberate, and sensitive, as undoubtedly, there is an absence of vacuousness out here in the rest of the world.

Finally, in my experience from living for the past 30 + years in one of the most ethnically diverse cities in the world (New York City) and speaking to literally, hundreds of people from different regions of the world, I cannot share Mr. Bermann's conclusions--I surmise, he has limited his experience to an isolated population. Through receptiveness, unrestricted growth is attainable. In other words, by opening up and hearing the rest of the world speak, one may be enlightened (freed from ignorance). Like most good medicines, this one may be bitter to swallow at times too.

p.s. In an earlier post by Vivian on 9/12/2001; I completely empathize with the feelings of grief and disbelief that she (and many of us) felt (I slept very little for about eight days). I also agree with her that the Palestinian people are a greatly oppressed people and though she did not seem to make light of another relevant point, I will: Arabs and Muslims are unjustly persecuted individuals (namely, in the West).
But, it is very disheartening to see that the same behaviors that to some extent define oppression, is displayed in her own writing; "Human beings are not human any more, we are animals!!!" and, "...it is a jungle (the world) where animals eat each other for survival!!!". I'll concede for a moment that this was figurative use of language. But unjust persecution is still unjust and it is still persecution.
Vivian, discriminatory figurative speech is often based on literal assumptions. Non-human animals are not evil, malevolent, fascistic, and they don't seek revenge any more than the human animal can breath water and survive. It is language based on our perspective (of discrimination, apartheid, and non-recognition of others' interests in this case) that precedes action. Our perspective includes all of our literal assumptions, no matter which individuals it is, that we refer to.
To assume that animals are, loathsome, as your figurative words suggested, is inherently wrong and immoral and is exactly the kind of paradigm that true compassion and nonviolence eschews. In fact, it is this same destructive rationalization of superiority of 'us' over 'them' that has led to the oppression of indigenous people and people of color, women, disabled and mentally challenged people, gays, people with nonwestern eyes, people of another religious faith, etc., etc., etc., down the line ad infinitum around the globe.
Please pick up a good book on the subject. Look for titles by Joan Dunayer and Carol Adams.

Respectfully,

Louis Gedo
Homepage: http://curedisease.com

REPLY TO BARB

25.09.2001 20:24

Dear Barb
If this mind-set is the result of "education" then God help us all.
Your own husband died from the after-affects of carrying out state-sponsored terrorist attacks in Vietnam, and yet you will allow your son to follow him to possible death in another unjustifiable "war"?
You mention your "homeland" - didn't your education teach you that there happened to be some red-skinned people in your country before your ancestors arrived? I don't recall your ancestors paying those people any taxes for helping themselves to their land and livelihood. In fact, they killed most of them, didn't they?
'Twas ever thus - human greed and ignorance combine to cause the suffering we see all around us.
WAKE UP Barb and those who think like you - the day of reckoning is coming.

Boggled

It's NOT primitve?

25.09.2001 20:30

Ok - so, somehow it's NOT primitive to execute non-believers? That's...what...progressive maybe? Ultra-liberal?

I hope that post had a good deal of sarcasm winding through it.

A Bengals Fan
mail e-mail: why_am_i_a_bengals_fan

Amanda, Barb,Unamerican

25.09.2001 22:49

Amanda & Barb,
Loved your comments!
To Un american:
I don't understand. If you disagree with the United States and dislike it so much, why don't you leave. Lots of people with very little money or means of getting to the United States have risked their life to do so. If you have passionate hate for the country, I'm sure there is somewhere better for you to live. The fact that you are here at all is proof you don't think it's that bad.

Jenny
mail e-mail: j100@hotmail.com

here's a thought

25.09.2001 23:06

if infact those pictures of the partying were false than cnn should go on record and state that ! just maybe, if they did people would'nt be terrorizing american people who just look different.what a shame that the media can get away with something this sad. this gave a lot of people an additude...

ruth
Homepage: oldruth@webtv.net

To hmmm

25.09.2001 23:29

Just because 1 person hasn't heard of a 777 does not mean the majority of Americans don't travel overseas.
What is worse is that someone thought these planes took off and landed on their own.

Steve
mail e-mail: CC2428@aol.com

primitive

26.09.2001 00:29

A man dies fighting. His 5 wives are left with 25 children but they can't work. They can't feed their children. They can't show their faces. They can't even leave the house unless they are with a male.

I wonder why Iailasalah and Alfawzi use hotmail for their email address. Don't you know it is run by a big bad American company? With big bad American Companies advertising on it.

female

Atom bomb on Japan <> WTC

26.09.2001 06:23

> But the fact remains that the U.S. did not "warn" Japan
> that the U.S. had developed and would use these bombs to
> kill hundreds of thousands of civilians unless Japan
> surrendered...

This is not true, and I don't believe your analogy is a good one. For one, there is the obvious fact that we were in a declared shooting war with Japan (started, I might add, when we suffered an unprovoked attack), and the cities were major industrial war production centers.
But your previous statement is also false. Not only U.S. diplomats warn Japan that we would use extremely large (doubtful they specified nuclear!) bombs on their cities unless they surrendered, but just in case the emporer (as he did) declined to inform his subjects (surprise, surprise!) the Air Force also dropped many leaflets on the cities prior to attack, warning that the city would be destroyed shortly and urging everybody to evacuate.
We didn't bomb the cities because we wanted to kill civillians, we bombed the cities because we had to destroy the industrial manufacturing capacity amd force a surrender.
Anyways, this whole thread is off-topic.

-Abe L.

Abraham Liebsch
mail e-mail: minuteman_icbm@hotmail,com

time diffrence again???

26.09.2001 07:50

lets stop all the talks about the time diffrence between palestine and the us.
in israel, we first heard about the attacks at 16:00 pm our time.
at about 16:30 the "celebrations" of palestinians began.
the sun sets sa about 18:30 pm.
so, i hope that explains the daylight,and the shadows.
next time, try calling someone from israel, if you want an explanation.

another thing, all of us here are with you.
stay strong and keep your heads up.

uri
mail e-mail: uri_de_leeuw@hotmail.com

Authentic Journalism

26.09.2001 13:27

Even though I'm in healthcare, I thought the entire point of journalism, at least authentic journalism was to throughly investigate the facts before delivering it to the public. Ideas, thoughts, or facts that are unable to be proven should be introduced as "alleged", right?

-Che

Che
mail e-mail: lilche2000

It's the foreign policy not the ppl!

26.09.2001 14:59

i guess a lot (not all!) of americans find it hard to understand that it is the disdain of america's foreign policy that ignites hatred from some (not all!) foreigners. it is rather obvious a lot (not all!) of ppl all over the world are rather captivated by the american way of life which explains the continuous exodus to america.

btw, is the following article a reflection of true freedom?

http://asia.cnn.com/2001/US/09/24/gen.voa.taliban/

hello?

to jenny j100@hotmail.com

26.09.2001 15:11

http://www.davidduke.org/writings/09-17-01.shtml

just because there's a voice of dissent makes him un-american?

David Duke is American, duh

To David Duke is American, duh from Jenny J

26.09.2001 22:05

I was responding to a post titled "Amanda, Barb" by Unamerican on 9/19/01. I didn't think that lady deserved the nasty things he said to her. He called himself Un American.

I don't see what the racist David Duke has to do with any of those posts, however. Why do you keep bringing HIM up?

Jennyj100

news

27.09.2001 08:24

Maybe just Don't pass on any news

seizer
mail e-mail: whatever@what.com

A call for truth and peace!

27.09.2001 17:06

In fact Idid not believe that the CNN would do such a thing...I asked myself why would they do this?!Until yesterday when my professor walked into my class and said that she just got an e- mail from the BBC reporter who confirmed that the images displayed on TV were indeed 1991 images!!!!The BBC has the images in their archives....All this is going on but we all must stop and think.
If the Palestinians did in fact grin at what happened I am sure it was not because they are evil but because they have been exposed to hatred for so long... Instead of propagating this hatred let's all pray that we will be able to stop another devestating war... Haven't we learnt form all the hatred that it can only build up more hatred?
Stop accusing one another, and stop faking facts for the benefit of one group over the other(s). Media is a very dangerous weapon and all of us should be careful using it... If it is used to propagate anger and hatred , then we should be very sorry it ever existed.
In The end I can only quot the great Buddha, In a plea for peace"hatreds never cease by hatreds, by love alone they cease".
Stop hatred and division& think love and unity.

mona
mail e-mail: monaselim01@hotmail.com

suck it up

27.09.2001 20:34

US policy has not always been cool, let alone hostile to the Palestinians. Truth is, US mediation efforts in the past has brought more peace in the ME, albeit temporarily, than the impotent efforts of the United Nations. Unfortunately the Palestinians started making trouble when they launched their intifada uprising more than a year ago. I’m sure you’ve heard of Palestinian suicide bombers blowing themselves up in public buses and other public places in their desire to kill Israelis regardless if they are women, children or the elderly. We cannot expect the Israelis to take these things sitting down. But look at the difference. The Israelis, in retaliation, assassinate Palestinians who are known activists and perpetrators of suicide bombings. There are of course times when innocent Palestinian civilians are caught in the crossfire, particularly civilians who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. But one thing is definitely sure: Israeli reprisals do not target Palestinian civilians DELIBERATELY. This is in direct contrast to what the other side is doing.

From how things are going on there, Palestinians kill Israeli civilians and in the process they are called "martyrs" by their compatriots. But these same people who cheer the “martyrs” cry foul when the Israelis retaliate. Now tell me. Who in his right mind will not blow his top with that kind of behavior ?

We cannot blame the United States for taking the side of Israel, can we? Americans are always known to be logical in their reasoning. It is just right that they veto resolutions that deem hostile to Israel for no logical reason. For example, how on earth can Zionism be equated with racism? Only the illogical would agree with it.

hehe
mail e-mail: d
Homepage: d

w

28.09.2001 02:26

se nao sabe, cala a bocaf

f
mail e-mail: f
Homepage: f

Please Be More Careful! Poor CNN!!

28.09.2001 03:46

Please be more careful in criticizing CNN and America. This was very unfair of you and your viewpoint was jaded based on your views of American policy. Please only report something after you have thoroughly investigated any allegation. We have enough feelings of grief for ourselves and for the nations around the world who have dictators who hurt their own people. I lived in Beirut during 1967 and loved the people I met there and have many fond memories; even having been evacuated during the June 67 war there. America is not perfect but we help more nations than anyone in the world. The world would be a more desolate place without the billions of dollars in aid and unrepayed loans we have given the world.

Sincerely,

juliew1956@home.com

Julie
mail e-mail: juliw1956@home.com

Freedom Rocks

28.09.2001 04:18

I think it was great that the VOA, which is paid for by American taxpayers did not air much of the Taliban interview. We don't need to pay for Omar's propaganda. If he wants to tell the World how bad U.S. policy is let him pay for it.

I am very proud of the American reporter who got the exclusive interview.

reflection of true freedom

REPLY TO ABRAHAM

28.09.2001 20:20

Sorry Abe
But you were not there, you didn't make those decisions, so just drop the "We". Other people than you made those decisions for who knows what motivations (well I have my theories, but that's not the point here)
Good man for taking responsibility, its an excellent trait in everyday life.
But please don't try telling the rest of us why you bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You didn't.

Jennifer

REPLY TO JULIE

28.09.2001 20:29

Julie, not true - American (and other Western Nations) spend more money on arming insurgents (who when they bite the hand that feeds them are renamed "terrorists") under Defence Budgets, to fight whichever other nation is currently out-of-favour, than they do on Aid (which is primarily a means of bringing third world countries under economic control)
PLEASE read some history and check your facts before making such absurd assumptions.

Historian

Its not how many you kill, but who ...

28.09.2001 22:36

Madeleine Albright says it's okay to have half a million children die as a result of US policy.
Makes you think that there's a better way to do things out there, don't you think? Lesley Stahl's question on "60 Minutes" May 12, 1996 to U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright:
Stahl: "We have heard that a half a million children have died [because of sanctions against Iraq]. I mean that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And--you know, is the price worth it?"
Albright: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it."
Is it not morally chilling, even a bit frightening, that the US, and the great mass of his citizen compatriots, can focus with such anguish and indignation on their own 6,000 dead, while ignorant of, or not caring about, or approving his (their) own government's ongoing killing of scores of times as many innocents abroad?

ZNet Commentary

ZNet Commentary

MUSLIMS LOYALTIES LAY ?

29.09.2001 14:45

Our PM Tony Blair was on tv last night (Thurday 28th) with Britains Muslim leader , ensuring that muslims were to be treated with repect . He further stated, as did the leader of the Muslims that they were with us shoulder to shoulder alongside America against the atrocity that happened on the 11th.

I felt a sigh of relief at seeing these two men saying this.

On channel four news, with Jon Snow an hour later, I saw him talking to the same leader , and a female head of the Muslims , a three way chat !

However the tone changed somewhat when they were both asked by Jon Snow where would their allegeince be should the inevitable happen, war ?

Both said the same thing , they would have to have proof that it was in fact Osama Bin Laden who was behind this , and that then he should be brought to justice in the correct judicial procedure ! They would NOT sit on the fence , and take notice of President Bush' you are either with US or you are with the terrorists!

They have divided loyalties..this must be a terrible dilemma for those who are NOT part of the Taliban mad rules !

They say it would have to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt !!
I now sigh , but with amazement , and trepidation !

Oddly enough my grandson aged 13 has a muslim friend ,same age at school , and his friend said that HIS dad would NOT fight for Britain ..but for Islam ...... what on earth do we teach our children if WE do not know the answers ourselves ?? I just pray that the Taliban will see sense and hand over Bin Laden ..... He had had the same warning as Hitler had ....lets hope the outcome is not a repeat of history !!...

We also HAVE to look to the safety of OUR future generations.....I saw in "THE MIRROR" 28th Sept..and article where Osama Bin Laden's son , 10 year old Hamza Bin Laden states

" I am warning America , its people will face terrible consequences if they chase my father " this chilling statement is from just ONE of Bin Ladens SEVENTEEN children , by four wives ,he said this at the wedding of his 19 year old brother , Muhammad . Even more chillingly , he went on to say...

"FIGHTING THE AMERICANS IS THE BASE OF OF MY FAITH "

This is indoctrinated to a 10 year old ....what of the future of him , his brothers ....cousins,and all his fanatical followers , it is a terrifying thought , that we have to put a stop to ALL of these ....NOW!

If it took so many years to plan and execute this evil act on New York ....do we REALLY think they are not already planning the next raids, and passing these plans down to their children, in the stupid belief that "allah" will recieve them into heaven (I imagine "Allah " would not NOT want a ferrocious eveil little ferret who murders innocent people any where near him ) ???????? Sadly I think they are !

Coralie

Coralie
mail e-mail: Coralie.spencer@ntlworld.com

"The Bigger the Lie..."

29.09.2001 22:53

Stated from the lord of propaganda himself....

When I heard from a friend in Europe about the Palistinians "dancing in the streets," my reaction was subdued. I momentarily thought of the movie "Wag the Dog" in regards to media manipulation ( I believe that's the title of that fairly recent movie w/ De Niro), but the response of those few West Bank citizens doesn't surprise me at all and I believed the video feed was accurate. I have always felt the U.S. policy in Israel to be inequitable--whoever heard of a 2000 year old real estate agreement with God, anyway? The student from Brazil found it far too easy to rush to the easy lanes of the Internet to fling his "scoop" across the world--but, who hasn't found themselves in this position before...a willing participant in a manipulation of "Who's on First" (!)

J. Leonard
mail e-mail: jen_leo@hotmail.com

Josef Goebbels = Lord of Propaganda

29.09.2001 23:04

To avoid confusion with my previous entry...was responding to L. Abrams.

J. Leonard
mail e-mail: jen_leo@hotmail.com

To the self proclaimed time keepper

29.09.2001 23:53

Kids! Be nice. The number of hours difference in time between New York and Palestine probably depends upon what time of the year you're talking about, unless Palestine observes Daylight Saving Time the same as New York does.

John
mail e-mail: jonldom@aol.com

palestianians celebrating

30.09.2001 03:38

so, can we believe that the palestinians love us as much as they did on 9-11-01?

diana
mail e-mail: zeezo@prodigy.net

pakistani pleas

30.09.2001 03:44

why drop to their level???

diana
mail e-mail: zeezo@ptrodigy.net

To subsonique

30.09.2001 05:53

In response to you post which is as follows
>>How can people genius enough to plan an attack of such magnitude on the US, with all those hijackings and precision actions be so stupid?

>>1. to leave their passports behind in a hotel room?"

Suicide bombers generally dont spend much time pondering if they might have left evidence that may cause them to serve jail time. They have bombed an actual navy ship and our reaction was ..that was not very nice now was it?!?! will you please come here so i may punish you. I dont think that, we will get you dead or alive and we will destroy any country that harbors you in the process, was an expected reaction. Didnt care about taking credit now thinking maybe not the best idea.

>>2. and how did they board the planes without their passports?"

Whens the last time you needed a passport to fly from Boston to San Francisco or from anywhere within the United States to another state? Oh you mean after the suicide bombing when they may want to return home? If you have a state ID you are off and flying. But then how could a terrorist with obvious underworld connections get a fake ID I mean that is clearly something only a 16 year old girl wanting a drink can accomplish.

>>3. and why did they leave ARABIC manuals on flying were they doing last minute preparations on how to fly a plane? funny."

I dont know if I were on a mission I thought to be my defining moment of which i will be considered a hero to my people and could be my instant pass to a heaven of sorts I'd wanna make sure I was completely sure of what i was doing

>>4. how could 4 planes get hijacked, forget CIA and FBI, what about airport security?"

Airport security oh you mean Mindy who lives down the block from me and runs the baggage x-ray machine who locked her keys in the car 3 times last week. You speak as if superman were the head of airport security and the rest of the justice league were his employeesWhat it takes a genius to book four flights with a few on each leaving around the same time. Bob ya wanna get on travelocity.com and check flight schedules. They didnt steal them from the airport they just boarded them.

>>5. How can people hijack a plane with so ease despite the fact that arabs are usually subjected to strip searches and humiliating body checks are airports in US?"

This is in reference to that hilarious joke I recieved through e-mail about how every Arab looking person gets strip searched before boarding a plane right? That was soooo hilarious I almost mistook it as a general order to all airport security.

>> for your infomation, boeing 747,757,767,777 - can take-off/fly/landing without pilot

Ohhh now I get it these planes all took off without the Pilot and the don’t fly into buildings parameter programmed into the auto pilot somehow was lost. I have seen the light this isn’t a terrorist attack this is all Boeings fault…I knew they should have built more lockheeds. What exactly are you getting to here.

A conspiracy by our own government so that we will hate muslims huh? I like my theory about the unpiloted 757s, and 767s going berserk better it seems a bit more realistic doesn’t it?

sinnigam

hey Bdub

30.09.2001 06:22

I am not justifying the bombings only making a correction. they were not told the exact details but japanese officials were warned. It took two bombings. their conviction was that of not til every last one of us dies will we surrender.Didnt get quite that far but far too close in my opinion

>>But the fact remains that the U.S. did not "warn" Japan that the U.S. had developed and would use these bombs to kill hundreds of thousands of civilians unless Japan surrendered, similarly as the NYC terrorists did not (apparently) warn U.S. that they were preparing to commit mass slaughter of civilians on U.S. soil.

sinnigam
mail e-mail: stukmag@hotmail.com

Re reply to me

30.09.2001 19:04

> Sorry Abe
> But you were not there, you didn't make those decisions, > so just drop the "We". Other people than you made those
> decisions for who knows what motivations (well I have my
> theories, but that's not the point here)
> Good man for taking responsibility, its an excellent
> trait in everyday life.
> But please don't try telling the rest of us why you
> bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You didn't.

Heh. Sorry, but I absolutely refuse to refer to my own government as "they." If you can't understand the difference between the personally inclusive "we" and the collective "we", I suggest you take some refresher grammar courses. Funny thing about English, the same word can have multiple meanings.
When I speak of the reasons we dropped the bombs, I am referring of course to the OBVIOUS MILITARY reasons. Certainly there may have been other factors, like making the Russians pee their pants, but the military strategic factors are obvious, the same as they were for Germany: destroy the nation's ability to make war. You don't do this by just killing random people. You destroy the industry, destroy the infrastructure. This was especially the case for Japan, since the fighters were committed to die before they would surrender. Rather than take them up on their offer, it was more painless (for both sides) to set about destroying their ability to fight.

-amliebsch

Abraham Liebsch
mail e-mail: minuteman_icbm@hotmail,com

Meanwhile...back in Hell (from "The Onion")

01.10.2001 00:05

JAHANNEM, OUTER DARKNESS—The hijackers who carried out the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon expressed confusion and surprise Monday to find themselves in the lowest plane of Na'ar, Islam's Hell.

"I was promised I would spend eternity in Paradise, being fed honeyed cakes by 67 virgins in a tree-lined garden, if only I would fly the airplane into one of the Twin Towers," said Mohammed Atta, one of the hijackers of American Airlines Flight 11, between attempts to vomit up the wasps, hornets, and live coals infesting his stomach. "But instead, I am fed the boiling feces of traitors by malicious, laughing Ifrit. Is this to be my reward for destroying the enemies of my faith?"

The rest of Atta's words turned to raw-throated shrieks, as a tusked, asp-tongued demon burst his eyeballs and drank the fluid that ran down his face.

According to Hell sources, the 19 eternally damned terrorists have struggled to understand why they have been subjected to soul-withering, infernal torture ever since their Sept. 11 arrival.

"There was a tumultuous conflagration of burning steel and fuel at our gates, and from it stepped forth these hijackers, the blessed name of the Lord already turning to molten brass on their accursed lips," said Iblis The Thrice-Damned, the cacodemon charged with conscripting new arrivals into the ranks of the forgotten. "Indeed, I do not know what they were expecting, but they certainly didn't seem prepared to be skewered from eye socket to bunghole and then placed on a spit so that their flesh could be roasted by the searing gale of flatus which issues forth from the haunches of Asmoday."

"Which is strange when you consider the evil with which they ended their lives and those of so many others," added Iblis, absentmindedly twisting the limbs of hijacker Abdul Aziz Alomari into unspeakably obscene shapes.

"I was told that these Americans were enemies of the one true religion, and that Heaven would be my reward for my noble sacrifice," said Alomari, moments before his jaw was sheared away by faceless homunculi. "But now I am forced to suckle from the 16 poisoned leathern teats of Gophahmet, Whore of Betrayal, until I burst from an unwholesome engorgement of curdled bile. This must be some sort of terrible mistake."

Exacerbating the terrorists' tortures, which include being hollowed out and used as prophylactics by thorn-cocked Gulbuth The Rampant, is the fact that they will be forced to endure such suffering in sight of the Paradise they were expecting.

"It might actually be the most painful thing we can do, to show these murderers the untold pleasures that would have awaited them in Paradise, if only they had lived pious lives," said Praxitas, Duke of Those Willingly Led Astray. "I mean, it's tough enough being forced through a wire screen by the callused palms of Halcorym and then having your entrails wound onto a stick and fed to the toothless, foul-breathed swine of Gehenna. But to endure that while watching the righteous drink from a river of wine? That can't be fun."

Underworld officials said they have not yet decided on a permanent punishment for the terrorists.

"Eventually, we'll settle on an eternal and unending task for them," said Lord Androalphus, High Praetor of Excruciations. "But for now, everyone down here wants a crack at them. The legions of fang-wombed hags will take their pleasure on their shattered carcasses for most of this afternoon. Tomorrow, their flesh will be melted from their bones like wax in the burning embrace of the Mother of Cowards. The day after that, they'll be sodomized by the Fallen and their bowels shredded by a demonic ejaculate of burning sand. Then, on Sunday, Satan gets them all day. I can't even imagine what he's got cooked up for them."

JenLeo
mail e-mail: jen_leo@hotmail.com

Reference below

01.10.2001 00:19

Strong, biting satire from The Onion

http://www.theonion.com

jenleo
mail e-mail: jen_leo@hotmail.com

Not Animals!

01.10.2001 07:31

Vivian,

You said that "we are not human any more,we are animals!!!"

I don't understand why you make such a comparison. Animals do not murder each other for "religion" or any other ridiculous, ficticious concepts. Animals are not wantonly cruel, as many humans are.

You also said that "it is really horrible, the world that we are living in!!!! it is a jungle where animals eat each other for survival!!!" Well, that is just not accurate. While animals DO eat each other for survival, humans only kill other humans (or non-human animals) for greed, for sport, or sometimes for no discernable reason at all.

When you ask people to "not to believe what you see......" it doesn't make sense. It would make more sendse to say that a few misguided people do not represent all Palestinians, than to tell people to disregard their senses. Especially when there were people there who praised Osama Bin Laden.

I am not trying to put you down -- I am simply asking you to think about what you are saying; especially if you want people to consider your point of view. I wish you well.

doe
mail e-mail: doey@usa.com

Lyes

01.10.2001 14:04

Lyes,

Sorry I do not speak French, but there were enough semaphores for me to get the jist.

Ah, the old million Iraqi children argument. I have a few questions. Saddam is the ruler of Iraq, correct? Despite the sanctions, he is allowed to sell oil and buy food and medicine, correct? Why is it not getting to these kids? I seem to recall past offers to increase the quota of this program, yet Iraqi officials have rejected these offers out of hand. Why? Successive American administrations have been locked in a war of wills with him over WMD and sanctions. Because of the unwillingness to “loose”, they have been every bit as callous as Hussein. But why does everyone blame America and ONLY America? We like to starve little children to death? Aside from the fact that I think the number is (just a bit…) inflated, my feeling is that he gets too much political mileage out of suffering children to let them suffer and less. Again, why is he blameless and we are Satan?

Also, 200,000 in Algeria? Congo? Rawanda? Aside from the “don’t give a s$%!” factor, why are we to blame for these tragedies? We did not intervene in Rawanda. OK, I will give you that. Who did? Yes, the American government did sleep with Mobutu, but that was a long time ago. Why exactly is the current situation the fault of the USA? Please document the evidence. Let me guess, something to do globalization? Aside from the fact that these people are too poor to buy good (expensive) weaponry and the price of indigenous raw materials are more expensive (capitalism love CHEAP) raw materials, what is the motive? Algeria????????? Huh? I also heard that we are to be blamed for Kasmir and Chechnya as well. Why is it never that the locals are at fault, but it is always an American plot?

Dave

Dave
mail e-mail: davidhstocker@hotmail.com

False accusations against CNN/Reuters

01.10.2001 15:01

Regarding student Marcio Carvalho from UNICAMP and his false accusations against CNN. Even though he is apologizing now saying that he was only conjecturing, oh well, that doesn’t quite seem like to be the truth either. On his first e-mail he is affirming that those images showed by CNN were FALSE. It is easy now for him to deny and not even be responsible for assuming what he wrote. Now he is explaining that a “hacker attacked his computer domain”. Whatever Marcio. We will make sure we all go along with whatever you have to say.

Another important point about this whole mess is that the professor that had the videotapes never showed up. As per his e-mail: “my professor, here in Brazil, has video tapes from 1991 with those same image’s; he is sending emails to CNN, Globo (the biggest television network in Brazil) and newspapers, to denounce what I myself classify as a “crime against the public opinion”. In the meantime I will try to put ‘my hands’ in such video tape”.

My point is that if this whole thing was really started by a professor that was quoted saying to have the videotape, where is such a professor right now? General public, the CNN and we most certainly deserve an apology from this professor as well. Nope. Not even a name for this “professor”.

I hope that Marcio learned a lesson. I hope he learned that we just don’t go out there accusing first, researching later. I hope he himself learned the power of "communication" (as he says on his alarming e-mail: “There is an important point about the power of communications, specially the power of CNN”), oh well, the power of Internet too my brother! How ironic.

Now lets forget for a minute the false accusations against CNN. To me not only those accusations are irresponsible but also the entire context of his e-mail. His views about the possibility of America sort of maybe "deserving" what happened because of "wrong trajectories that were chosen by the government of America" are as unacceptable as his accusations against CNN. But hei, I’m a democratic after all and he has the right to express how he feels and what he is thinking.

So do I and I was outraged when I first read his e-mail. What does he means when he affirms that: “don’t get me wrong here, but the true is that the American Government has showed no respect for other countries on the past decades”? He even says that he is not trying to justify what happened, but “maybe” if EUA had taken different actions? I’m not even going to go there.

So if he is not trying to justify, WHAT IS IT that he is trying to do?

Marcio you’re the big Mr. irresponsible. I'm afraid of what you’ll be when you get out of college. Hopefully not a journalist! Hopefully not a politician. Hopefully not a teacher. Principally not one like the one you quoted as “having the video-tape”… Yes that one... That one that is not a HE anymore. Now in your response to this site, HE is a SHE. By the way, Marcio, is it HE or SHE?

Anyway, this student is “the irresponsible” all over, followed only by the ones that found so easy to just “forward” his crap all over the world!

Lena Davidson

Lena Davidson
mail e-mail: MWaldoski@prodigy.net

The slanderous remards made against CNN

01.10.2001 17:51

(this email has been sent before, but i want to make sure it is recieved, read, and considered)

Dear Sir,
I was extremely upset at the false accusations you made about CNN using decade old images of the celebrating taking place in Palastine. In your defense you did recant these slanderous remarks by placing the blame on your source. I wnt you to please remember one thing, I don't blame the teacher who ran her mouth about this, the blame should be yours considering you didn't even ask to see proof of this alleged tape before you started broadcasting your accusations. At least you recanted these remarks, but there were other remarks you made about the United States almost blaming them for these terrorist attacks. This is completely unacceptable. Nothing the United States government has done in the past excuses the lost of thousands of innocent lives. Just for the record sir, you need to get your facts straight. A lot of these third would countries would sease to exist if it wasn't for the United States pumping millions of dollars into their economines that hasn't been paid back, and niver will be. You talk about the U.s. interference in forign affairs, well quite froankly if the U.S. didn't "interfer" as you call, these countries would blow each right off the map or rot from the inside out. I don't understand how anyone can be so insensitive as to take a stand like this as uneducated as it is, when the rest of the caring world views this as a tragedy. You said you didn't want to be taken wrong, well when you make comments like this, you will be. It was like you jumped on this opprotunity to voice your opinions about the U.S., well sir let me tell you, you picked the wrong time. So on behalf of the citizens of the United States I would like you to seriously consider this matter, educate yourself, and remember this the next time you come across something that seems to good to be true, because sir, usually it is.

Thank You,
L.M.R.

Lisa Rasco
mail e-mail: lilprecious512@hotmail.com

from nypress.com

01.10.2001 20:15

the us has known for a no of yrs that osama bin laden had made afghanistan his home. yet not only has the us govt mad eno attempt to topple the taliban regime (not such a difficult task since its chief sponsors are pakistan and saudi arabia, two us satellites), it had even 4gotten to list afghanistan as one of the states that sponsor terrorism. indeed, earlier this year, bush admin promised afghanistan $43 million in humanitarian assisatance, thus bringing the total pledged this year to $124 million. extraordinary generosity, when compared to the 10-year sanctions regime still in effect against iraq and the refusal to give yugoslavia a penny unless slobodan milosevic was handed over.
the truth is the us has no problems with terrorism. it just doesn't like being the victims of terrorism. the taliban and osama bin laden are useful instruments of us foreign policy. this goes well beyond the familiar story of bin laden, the mujahideen and the cia fighting side by side against the soviets in afghanistan in the 1980s. since the end of the cold war, the united states has consistently aligned itself with, financed and trained the most extreme, intolerant islamists, the most ruthless cut-throats and the worst drug dealers. it is no accident, then, that it was in this us-led new world order that osama bin laden rose to his dizzy height - to the point where he has become emboldened enough to turn on his master.
during the 1980s bin laden traveled around the world recruiting radical islamic volunteers to fight the anti-soviet jihad. yet following the withdrawal of the soviet union from afghanisan, the camps in which the volunteers underwent military training, political education and islamic consciousness-raising did not close down. on the contrary, they contributed to flourish, sending out recruits for one jihad after another. the jihads were largely directed at perceived foes or rivals of the united states. russia, china, and india have repeatedly declared the taliban to be the greatest source of instability in the region. fundamentalist volunteers have been sent to xinjian province in china, where turkic muslim uighur insurgents are attempting to detach an islamic republic out of china. volunteers have turned up in the russian provinces of chechnya and daghestan, seeking to carve out independent islamic states.
russia's muslim population mainly resides in the caucasus, a region abundant in oil and gas - much sought after by a number of powers, most importantly the us. clearly the secession of a number of islamic republics from russia and the creation of resource-rich but weak, strife-torn islamic states would serve us interests very nicely.
not surprisingly, therefore, that when it comes to terrorism americans adhere to a rigid double standard. terrorism does not count as terrorism when it is drected against the russians. in september 1999, terrorists from chechnya went on a bombing spree in russia, blowing up a number of apartment buildings in moscow and other cities. nonsense, cried the dim bulbs of the wall street journal editorial page, the ever-histerical new republic as well as william safire. it was the russian govt itself that blew up the buildings to generate popular support for the fight against the chechen insurgency.
russia's central asian allies, which for years have been subjected to the most horrendous taliban-inspired violence, have also been told that they can expect no sympathy, only strictures, from the us. what might have been in store for russia and central asia can be gleaned from the example of the balkans. bin laden and the various islamist holy warriors worked hand in hand with the us trying to establish the first islamic dominiated republic in europe. the clinton administration, witht he parroting media cheerfully in tow, declared that the bosnian muslims were the victims and the serbs the oppressors. the us govt threw its weight behind the radical islamist alija izetbegovic and decided to help the iranians ship arms to the bosnian muslims. almost immediately after the first arms shipments, hundreds of iranian revolutionary guard fighters and trainers poured into the country. this helped iran entrench itslef in bosnia. meanwhile, sinister organizations like the third world relief agency, which was clearly linked to osama bin laden, funneled money and arms to the bosnian muslims, all with the happy connivance of the united states.
the same ppatern was repeated in kosovo a few years later. osama bin laden's links with the kosvo liberation army have been amply documneted. osama bin laden will obviously have to go. but the taliban are too useful for washington to abandon. the us will have to do what it usually does at times like this - find a more pliable replacement.

name
mail e-mail: nypress.com
Homepage: http://www.nypress.com

Missed something there

02.10.2001 04:39

You need to knock off an hour from your estimates. Everyone here seems to be forgetting Daylight Savings Time. That makes 9AM in NY 3PM in Palestine.

For those unfamilliar with DST, most US states add an hour to the clocks in the spring and subtract an hour in the fall.

Brian
mail e-mail: gostarscup@hotmail.com

The Middle East Crisis

02.10.2001 08:47

Which country in the Middle East has nuclear weapons and refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspection?

Which country in the Middle East have high-ranking military officers admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war were executed?

Which country in the Middle East created 762,000 refugees and refuses to allow them to return to their homes, farms, and businesses?

Which country in the Middle East was a high-ranking UN diplomat assassinated?

Which country in the Middle East blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a US Navy Ship (U.S.S Liberty) in international waters, killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors?

Which country in the Middle East employed a spy (Jonathan Pollard) to steal classified documents and then gave some of them to the Soviet Union?

Which country in the Middle East is in defiance of 69 United Nation Security Council resolution and has been protected from 29 more By U.S vetoes?

Which country in the Middle East has the most powerful lobby in the United States?

Which country in the Middle East receives about 3 billion dollars every year from the United States as a grant?

To make it easy on you people, the answers to all the questions is Israel

Adam
mail e-mail: saboud68@hotmail.com

Response to nypress

02.10.2001 09:28

Think about the point you are trying to make. Of course, the US gets a little riled up when it becomes a main target of any group bold enough to commit acts such as this. Yes, there are double standards for this situation and most any situation in the world. I am sure you are guilty of a couple instances yourself. Not a personal attack because I will be the first to admit I am not infallible.
The US has become a target and has been attacked in their very own backyard. Are you expecting this country to say aww what the hell we deserve it? Hell no. The potential threat to this country's peace of mind must be eliminated. the US has pleaded with other countries for bin laden to be turned over to no avail. This opportunity has arisen from this great tragedy. The whole worlds eyes can be cast upon it and called to sympathize with this nations need to resolve this matter and you expect that the US will not take full advantage of this to eliminate a threat. If this country were to just stand idly by and not come at this with the tenacity that it is currently displaying would that not that aid in painting a bulls-eye on its landscape.
Post after post after post I read how the US has done this and done that and how could those Americans not expect retribution or a payback of some sort. Do you think that all Americans are as naïve to think that this country has conducted itself in complete innocence. Over all, the reaction is not to the fact that this country has been targeted rather what in this country has become a target. Suicide bombers attacked the USS Cole and it ran in the news for a while. Under all the dismay was the fact that it was a warship attacked by an enemy. When civilian areas are deliberately chosen as targets and attacked at a time that there is thought to be the most civilian casualties that is cause for alarm as well as immediate and unprecedented action. The pentagon attack did not receive quite the same reaction as the WTC attack not just because of the casualty difference but also because the pentagon is a military target.
You point out many of this country’s past underhanded deeds but when you think on a global scale is some of this just expected and even needed for a country to maintain influence while covering its own arse. Sure, we would love to be able to say that this is a divine utopia but we are no longer in grade school and should be able to distinguish between reality and fantasy. To even get to a place where there might be a utopia like existence isn’t there a need for general mistakes so that what doesn’t work can be weeded out? I have not even mentioned the fact that the US has been a stabilizing force across the map and has kept more countries from destroying itself, being destroyed by others, or just plain collapsing. Keeping other countries afloat is not just a charitable cause, it keeps our own country as well as the rest of the world stable. The same is also true the other way. People can say that they hate the US and Americans are weak living lifestyles they shouldn’t but the mere fact of the matter is if the US and its market crashes so goes the rest of the world.
So those of you out there can say you hate us, nit pick our policy, laugh at our presidents, put down our lifestyle, attack our skyscrapers, and just plain would like us to drop off the planet. The plain truth of the matter is at this time this planet needs this country and in reality you cannot place blame on a country for wanting to not just merely survive but thrive. The nation is in a state of mourning for its current loss. Let us grieve and have our moment to yell out we want justice, isn’t it only natural.
I am proud to be an American citizen, while I do not support all of my countries actions and policies I will not apologize for it and I will be damned if I had to chose another country to live and raise children in. If needed I would fight and die for my country because I do not feel that any other country makes any where near the same contribution to the global good or is a better example of what a country should be. God bless America, God bless the fallen, and God bless those left standing in wait of justice.

SINN

sinnigam
mail e-mail: stukmag@hotmail.com

Repression

02.10.2001 13:44

In rsponse to Leonard Abrams,
"Excuting nonbelievers" is not, should not, can not be a time-hallowed tradition for any group! If any race, any religion, or any country feels this way, they do not deserve to exist themselves.

Larry

Give Me One

02.10.2001 14:05

OK Byron Canfield, if you want me to wake up and see how my own government is a terrorist, give me just one non-disputed act! Please facts only, no fluff or biased opinions.
L

L

Thank you

02.10.2001 15:19

Thank you for your honesty in dealing with the footage of CNN regarding the Palestinians celebrating. -Andy

Andy
mail e-mail: teknikal1@aol.com

Response to Sinn

02.10.2001 19:57

I want to thank you for a well written post that summarized many feelings that I have as well. Pointing out the difference between a military and civilian target and the difference in most American's (sorry mr. canadian....no disrespect, but, WE are American, in fact, in view of your apparent disgust with the USA, I am surprised that you would even want to be associated with any name that would have ties with the USA) response is very important and something that I have not seen posted here at all and very little anywhere else.
I doubt that I will be able to express myself as well as you did, but, I would like to say a few things.
First, I was surprised, albeit mildly, at the outpouring of hatred and disinformation being posted on this board toward The USA and it's citizens. Yes, I know that it has been pointed out that the USA has heaped millions upon millions of dollars (notice how the world references the aid in dollars and not any other form of money?) in aid to every corner of this planet, however, I feel that it needs to be said again. And in response to whoever said that we (USA) are the first ones to bring it up, well, 'I' bring it up to parry all the "USA is so Evil" nonsense going on.
Sinn hit the nail on the head again, when he/she pointed out the interdependency of the world on the US economy (and yes, money) and the US's economy on the world.
Go ahead and kill all the evil 'Americans' (Mr. Canadian, still wish to be called 'American' and incur these evil fanatics wrath?)
I do not hate Islam as a religion, but,I think it is in error because I am a born again Christian. Worship whom you will, because to me, all will be shown the Glory of God, the Father of the Lamb, in due time.
I do not hate Muslims, or Afghani's, in fact, I worry daily about a friend of mine, who moved here from Afghanistan, and for his family's safety, who still live in Afghanistan, but, I know that some in the USA will rush to strike out blindly and unjustly against foreign nationals living here.
My point is, that, IMHO, the world shall stay divided in religion until after the Rapture, when the Anti-Christ has risen to power and united the world in one religion, money and government. We shall continue to have strife, no matter how hard the most well intentioned people try to bring about world peace.
I ramble on, I have so much to say....I thank God that I live in a country where I can express myself and that I enjoy freedom (that freedom can be a double edged sword) unparalleled on this planet. I would live no where else and I pity the people that have posted on this board with such venomous misinformation about the USA.
I don't blame the Palestinians for rejoicing against the USA, they do not have access to information as much of the world and they know only what they are taught and told.
I do hold them recountable for rejoicing against the innocent slaughter of civilians from so many different countries of this world (if, in fact, they were not rejoicing just because of the attack on the Pentagon, as was stated previously on this board). Thought I'd never post on topic, didn't you?

oh and to Jen_Leo, I liked your post as well.
May God show his mercy on us all for our transgressions. God Bless the United States and my prayers reach out to all who have suffered in NYC and in DC.

SteveA
mail e-mail: darkmatter13@hotmail.com

Time

03.10.2001 01:27

Dumbasses. Sunset in Israel on Sept. 11 was at 5:52 p.m. local time. Save your hot air and check a weather website once in a while.

*sigh*

MY timezone

03.10.2001 12:15

I can tell you where I was when it was happenning. I was working with a group of friends. It was daytime, the sun was shining, and one of the guys approached us and said there were two planes who crashed on the twin towers. It is not a theory, this is not shaddow watching and time comparing and passing theories about what was going on with the natives in the middle east. IT'S A FACT! No matter what you think of the Palestinians, no matter what you think of the Israelis, the FACT is that I, Tomer Israeli, an Israeli civilian, was standing in the afternoon, while there was daylight, in my place of work and listening to one of my friends as he was telling me what he has heard through the media ten minutes before. It was after 4pm in Sept 11 when I got to the TV and saw black smoke covering NYC. It was one of the most horrible things I have ever seen.

Now, about condemning an entire public. I would just like to say, that usually when a public is divided, you hear the division loud and clear. In Israel people were divided for years on wether or not we should put soldiers in Lebanon (for Moral, strategycal, and danger reasons). There have been movements of people calling to get out of Lebanon, get out of the Palestinian territories, as well as people who say we have to stay in, in order to protect ourselves from suicide bombers and other kinds of attack.

Why was there never a Palestinian organisation who disputes the sending of 8 year olds into Army posts to throw stones at them? If you were in a war, would you send your 8 year old child to attack the enemy?

I believed in the peace process for many years, argued with right wingers. Unfortunately, I don't hear of any Palestinian left wingers who argue with the terrorists who killed two Israeli kids last night, or with the Palestinian TV, who incourages people to commit suicide and take Israelis with them. Palestinians don't condemn the Palestinian suicide bomber from Jenin who killed 15 men women and Children in the Sbarro resteraunt in Jerusalem. And they don't condemn the Palestinian from Tul Karem who crashed in a plane with other Arabs, in the United States.

Israel has conflicts, so does the US. But the Palestinians, for the most part, know exactly which civilizations they want innihilated.

Tomer
mail e-mail: tomer_israeli@hotmail.com

use this link to comment on this article

03.10.2001 22:50

http://uk.indymedia.org/comment.php3?top_id=11546

me

use this to post comments

03.10.2001 22:51

http://uk.indymedia.org/comment.php3?top_id=11546

me
mail e-mail: asdf
Homepage: asfd

bogus apology

03.10.2001 23:24

I thought an apology from somebody of your libel stature would write a better apology. I hope you check your sources in the future before you begin to ignite false terror and misinformation

Helena

cnn is slanted

04.10.2001 17:18

by displaying the celebration of 30 peeps side by side the burning twin towers (hello? wtc is not just two bldgs k! duh), and is not indicative of the general palestinian population, is downright iressponsible journalism. and did u know that they published two wrong photos of suspected terrorists? talk bout zealousness...

btw, go to yahoo ad to see how downtown new york looks like pre-wtc era....

btw, tribeca still rocks!!! urban living rocks!!! so much for the 'burbs...ugh

whatever
mail e-mail: whatever
Homepage: whatever

About the bias

05.10.2001 00:30

There are no excuses for the false acusation done. An error to deplore. We all must keep in mind the associated lesson.
But there are some reason behind the bias in favour of Palestinians.
Check United Nations' General Assembly Resolutions about the question of Palestine at

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/qpalnew/resolutions_new_qpal.htm
This documents also help to understand why the US are also hatred by some people because of Israel/Palestine problem.
However, is also deplorable what groups like Hamas, for example, are doing to the cease-fire, to peace, to Israelis, to Palestinians and to human beings all over the world.
It leaves the clear impression that those groups cannot accept the existence of a Israeli State in the region.
But we *must* understand that they are not a synonim for the palestinian people.
In other hand, Israel must understand that "assassination policy"

http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/fr/fr010919_1_n.shtml
and use of nuclear weapons

http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2000/05/02/Opinion/Opinion.6062.html
are things that can make the blood run forever. Palestinian *and* Israeli blood.
What grey world...

Carlos Almeida

?

05.10.2001 20:54

I'm just an average American, bored at work and stumbling onto this site.

A couple of things puzzle me:

1. Many people here have tried to seperate the American Government and the American people, usually in an augument justifying attacks on the American government that ends up killing American people. The American government is, by and large, the will of the American people. They can't be seperated so easily. Certainly while the government does not precisely mirror the views of any single American (we all have gripes against it) it mirrors the views of a good sized majority of the people.

2. Many people here seem to really 'hate' America - and I don't use the word 'hate' loosely - and think most of the world also hates us. Based on what I've seen most of the world would love to have a Green Card. I wonder how many of the 'haters' on this site have gone to school in the US and tried for an H1 or other visa. We're the "Great Satan" yet everyone seems to want to own a condo here in hell.

3. I think it apt to question why people would attack the USS Cole. However, making any attempt at all to justify the WTC events is, well, weird. Its like serious scholars asking what the Jews did to piss off Hitler and how they should have changed after the first CCamp opened - or what those children did to upset J. W. Garcy so much. Slamming planeloads of people into office buildings during work hours, to me at least, is not something that people shouldn't even think about justification or cause.

Well, back to work.

Jim

cnn redefines accurate journalism

08.10.2001 23:08

it is my understanding that if cnn, AP, or other large-scale media agent actually falsely produced footage, they would be working to secure their reputations at this point--take that as you will.

my point: i've been trying to track this issue and a friend of mine (i know, i know) told me she listened to an NPR broadcast in which NPR revealed (briefly and singly) that the footage WAS from '91.

1. can anyone confirm this?

2. regardless of where the footage came from, the irresponsible editing and montage work that set this small group of palestinians in counterpoint to peace-loving spokespeople for arabic nations was completely unacceptable in my view. it is almost besides the point where the footage came from. how much footage did we see of the vigils that occurred in arabic communities in the us and abroad, including palestine?

3. except, of course, for that one clip that had the small child smiling during the prayers for the dead, run coincidentally against arafat's comments that palestinians felt for the american dead...

maybe it's too much for us to ask our media not to feed racism?

interested party

wrong celebrations

23.10.2001 16:29

I might not be the first to tell all of you this but..

You mean 4 in the afternnoon Israel Time is too late to be light out side?

You mean the reporters from many news orgs locked in their hotels or blocked from areas of celebration?

The Mosques where people were celebrating didn't exactly put out banners and hire a film crew!

Remove your distrust long enough to think before you post. These kinds of posts like the Student from Brazil and your comments that you think it is true even when eveidence proves otherwise, the fake news story post about the 4000 Israelis (you know the one where the ambassador wonders how many of the 4000 Israelis in NY are injured and gets translated on and E-mails and web sites as 4000 Israelis stayed home from work!) do more to cause and foment hatred as they get passed on and on...

Steve

The TRUTH about the staged video ( SPIEGEL )

28.10.2001 01:21

Please visit this page and click on the article about "Palestinians Celebrating"
THis information comes from Spiegel. I have e-mailed this to some people, so far only two responses - actually none responses. Both don't want to hear it. YOu can see the photos for yourself - what the networks editied out to create a false impression.

Tom
mail e-mail: MediaReform@aol.com
Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/thinkagaintv

Using logic

07.01.2002 19:52

Please note that to say that claim A has not been proven is not the same as saying that claim A is false. So in the case of the "videotape argument", the clarification given by the student from Brazil does NOT say that the CNN footage is not from 1991. It simply states that no evidence was available to support such a claim. One cannot jump to the conclusion that the footage is NOT from 1991, based on the student's clarification, for the argument does not support such a claim. To derive such a conclusion would be to commit a logical fallacy.

Kelly