Like criminals coming very quietly...

 
 
The following text is the transcription of an interview to a young
man  who was arrested
inside the Diaz school during the blitz by the police on the Saturday
evening of
July 21  2001.  You can find the audio document of this
interview at the following
web address:

 http://gelma.lugbs.linux.it/genovag8/genovag8.html
 
 
A: What's your name? Where are you from?
B: Do you think it's OK? Maybe I stay anonymous.
A: You where inside the Diaz school on Saturday evening?
B: Yes.
A: When you arrived, what did you see?
B: When I arrived it was about ten o'clock in the evening and just because
I
heard in that school I could check my email and also that people could
stay
there to sleep so I just stayed there waiting in the line for the computer.
A: The police about the blitz says that the school was full of black
bloc
people and when the police arrived there was throwing of stones
and other
objects from the windows. What can you say about that?
B: Police says that some people with a knife tried to beat a policeman.
Actually police arrived but nobody noticed. They were noticed just
when
they started to go in. When police arrives they should tell something
like
"this is police please give up". They didn't tell anything. They were
like
criminals coming very quietly and when somebody noticed them. People
shouted
"the police" and everybody already was in panic. Then police started
to go
inside the school. They were breaking the doors (they were not asking
to
open), the windows, the side-doors, shouting very aggressively, people
were
in panic, somebody was lying, somebody was running to the second floor.
When the police was already inside, actually I haven't seen what was
happening in the hall, I just heard people screaming. I heard these
noises
when the sticks hit bodies, all people screaming. I was standing near
computers which actually were not in the hall. They were just a bit
further,
near the bathroom and I saw many policemen coming inside and two of
them were
coming in my direction and one of them started to smash computers with
the
stick and then I ran to the bathroom.
A: What about the knife and the other actions, do you think it was
possible
a physical contact with the police?
B: It is absolutely impossible because as I already said, they came
quietly,
nobody noticed them until they started running into the garden, so
people
were in panic, they didn't do anything against police, they were just
in
panic, trying to escape and I am sure that nobody was trying to confront
any policeman.
After I went to the bathroom there was one more girl and we just sit
on the
floor and a couple of policemen came. They were kicking us for a while.
But
I was really lucky, it was just a bit so. They kicked and went out
and after
like a minute some police came again and kicked again and shout me
that I
have to go out of the bathroom and I went out and there were many policemen
staying there. We were walking with that girl between policemen lines
and
everybody was beating us with the sticks.
A: I want to make a question about the things that police said they
found
inside the school. Police and also De Gennaro yesterday told there
were a
lot of sticks, few Molotovs, a lot of black clothes that indicated
the
presence of a lot of people from the black bloc inside the school.
What can
you say about that?
B: About Molotov cocktails I haven't seen any of them and I am quite
sure
there were no Molotov cocktails. There is no reason to have them.
Demonstrations were over, everybody was trying to rest until tomorrow
morning. There was no arm prepared. In the other mobile I think police
was
looking. After I was taken from the bathroom to the hall the policemen
were
beating me while passing in this corridor and when I was in the hall
I saw
many people running from upstairs down and all the policemen everywhere
were
beating people and people were shouting and trying to cover their heads.
Many people were bleeding, there was blood and everybody was beaten
and
lying down on the ground. The terror of police inside was incredible
because
people were beaten with the sticks in the head and in the face. One
guy was
beaten to the mouth and many eyeglasses broken. Police violence was
really
incredible, I think already most people know about broken arms and
legs and
so on. One really good fact I can tell to show how fascist were
police: the friend of mine was lying not far away from me. He was lying
down the face covering his head with arms and one policeman was beating
him with the stick to the back and then one beat and then with a knife
he
was cutting his dreadlocks from the head and one beat, one dreadlock,
one
beat, one dreadlock. After that a friend said he looked one policeman
passing
and he saw these dreadlocks tight to the belt, you know like ancient
Indians,
these scalps, used like war trophy. After that police violence stopped
when
ambulance people started coming in, but before that many very horrible
things
happened, but I think that already almost anybody knows about this.
After
that ambulances came and started taking people away. Then police started
to
search and everybody was put to one place. So police started to search
for
things. For example I saw yesterday the newspaper in the police station
and
there was a photo about arms found in the school. There were so many
of these helmets and gas-masks and when I saw in the hall carrying
them away,
I can't tell there was no helmet, maybe there were two or three helmets
I
saw, that's it. In the photo there were like 20 of them and these gas-masks
and some sticks.
A: You didn't see the sticks?
B: I saw some sticks but they were wooden, or some other like garbage
as the
school was prepared for renovating.
So there was some garbage inside, so it was some wooden and some small
of
metal. But not actually fighting sticks.
A: And about the black bloc and the black clothes, was did you see?
I mean
they shaw on the TV and on the papers a lot of black clothes, saying
it was
full of people from the black bloc.
B: I saw they were carrying some black clothes but it was like one plastic
sack and they were putting black clothes from all the hall but there
were
so many luggage and it is a bit nonsense, I mean the police can come
to
any house and find like 10 black clothes.
A: They were searching for black clothes?
B: Yes, they were destroying these bags and putting out only the black
things, putting them in one place. There were many luggage and from
each
luggage they were taking for example one black cloth, there was not
so
many really.
There were not so many people from them. There was some who could look
like
a black bloc, but maybe just wearing black. But those were less than
half.
The rest of the people were like anybody looks like.
A: After this, where did they take you to? To jail?
B: At first we were taken to the police station, it was like a Carabinieri
station. We were divided into groups of eight people and taken with
the vans
there. First of all, nobody was told why we were arrested, where we
were
going. The only thing the police said was they were picking the passports,
so
everybody should give the passport and all these passports are gone
now.
Many people do not have the passports and I am not having it too. I
gave my
passport to the police officer and my passport is gone now.
A: You were beaten when you arrived at the police station? What happened?
B: We arrived, we got off the vans and first of all somebody came
to us and said in English "this is a military zone, if you will do
any move
without us telling you, you are gonna be shot". All the way in the
school, in
the van, at the police station, always we had to put our hands in the
air.
When we arrived we were near the wall, hands in the air, police were
searching us, we were eight people and many of them were beaten, while
searching.
A: You were beaten too?
B: Yes but not so strong, I was not beaten with the stick, when they
start to
search in my trousers they wanted to put the belt off and I moved my
head a
bit and they hit my head for that move. They were breaking things,
not
actually searching but just tearing clothes and hit bags. For example
they
found the mobile phone in my pocket and as soon as they got it off
they
smashed it to the ground and smashed it with the foot. We were beaten
and
standing there for half an hour outside hands up. Then we were taken
inside
to the cells and then again everybody was standing hands up. There
were
people already tired and shocked and everybody who was trying to move
hands
a bit down, the police came.
A: This inside the cells?
B: Yes, inside the cells.
A: You were forced, obliged to...
B: Yes, everybody was on the wall hands up again. We were with raised
hands
for three hours, it was incredible. And if you just moved, they came
and
beat you, not with the sticks, but with the hands. We were standing,
and you
know, it was such a shock that every moment you can be beaten. And
police were
walking and making such a cruel joke like: "Black bloc... black heads".
I do
not know Italian. For example the people when they were beaten, the
police
were shouting something and foreign people like me and from Germany
do not
understand and asked "please in English" and nobody was translating
and still
shouting something in Italian and beating. You do not know what they
want
and they shout to you.
A: Talking about that, do you remember (or maybe you could understand)
if
there were fascistic statements made from the police? The papers
talk about
hymns to Pinochet or against Jews, something like that happening
inside the
jails. I do not know if you could understand anything, not only
fascistic acts
but also in what they said.
B: Actually I do not understand Italian, they were talking about many
things.
But what I understood, there was really bad attitude to Polish people,
like
when they were going around, when everybody was standing and asking
"from
where are you?". If you where Italian they tell you nothing and attitude
to
people from somewhere else was "uhm... ah!, Polacchi" and I understood
that
they were talking to each other that the black bloc is mostly from
German and
Polish people.
A: Do you think it is a racist and fascist point of view?
B: Maybe I can not tell about small things, but the whole view in this
police
station was real fascistic situation. Boys and girls divided, nobody
was
allowed to speak, stand absolutely controlled. All looked like a fascist
movie. I just could not believe that it is year 2001 and Europe and
it is a
democracy. I was really shocked. That is incredible. When the police
saw that
people could not hold the hands, the hands were falling, we were so
tired. And
then they let everybody for a minute hands down and after a minute
up again
standing. It was for one hour then let people sit for a minute and
again stand
up in a row.
A: Where they happy or laughing?
B: Yes. For example they said "sit down everybody" and then "ah, ah!
Get up!
Get up!". We were treated like really big criminals: the belts, the
shoe ties
were taken off. If a person wanted to go to the bathroom, the carabiniere
take the neck and they were walking all the way down to the toilet
holding
very tight to the neck. All the night it was the same.
A: This was Sunday night? How long did you stay in the police station?
B: Saturday.
A: You were taken Saturday?
B: Yes, Saturday night and the night was really stressful.
A: Did someone sleep?
B: No, at night we were not allowed. After standing, we were allowed
to sit,
but nobody was allowed to lay down. People were falling asleep and
police came
and "stand up! Stand up! No laying, no talking". After that, one night,
one
day and then a bit of the next night. So till Sunday people were given
as food
just water and for one man just two really small cakes. In the morning
and in
the afternoon one sandwich for two people. The sandwich was with meat
and as
there were many vegetarians, for all day they had just a piece of bread
and
water.
A: What did they tell you? You were taken somewhere? Which were your
accusations?
B: All the time we were arrested some people were asking for the
lawyers and they were asking what is going on, and where are we and
where are
we going. No question was answered through all the night and all the
day. Only
in the night between Sunday and Monday everybody was taken from the
cells and
they took our fingerprints, informations, took many photos, took off
earrings,
searched all the body. Monday morning we were told (we were very tired)
that
we were going to jail.
A: Also the Italian people made questions?
B: Yes, yes.
A: And they answered to anybody?
B: No, to nobody. There was an Italian guy asking to the carabinieri
what was
going on. It was also nothing, nothing, nothing.
A: On Monday what happened? Did you stay there until Monday?
B: No, that night between Sunday and Monday, early in the morning, it
was 3
o'clock, two by two everybody was taken to a bus with these small cells
with
the bars. We were told we were going to jail and that's it. Nobody
was allowed
to call a lawyer. We just took the bus and to the jail it was about
one hour
and a half of way and nobody was knowing where we were going and what
was the
situation.
A: Did you know where you arrived?
B: No, you could not see anything through the bars and the bus was going.
When we arrived nobody was told. I found out where I was when I was
already in
the cell. I found an envelope of an ex-prisoner and on the envelope
there was
written the address of the prison, Pavia. That's how I found where
I am.
A: Did they beat you during the travel to Pavia or at your arrival?
B: No, in prison I was not beaten.
A: Do you know of other people beaten?
B: I think that nobody was really strongly just that. But the attitude
of the
police was also very hard. It was always "come on, come on, this way".
You
just do not understand where to go. And I was going upstairs and I
think I
lost the way, I turned not right, it was very dark, there was police
in the
dark, I was going in that direction and then I felt "Tch!". From the
dark they
beat my head because I chose not the right way. I should go straight
and then
turn to the left. About jail, the troubles with the food especially
vegetarians: for the first day it was only bread because everything
was with
meat but then it was better. Actually in prison it was OK, just you
do not
know anything, the only thing I was told when some guy came, but it
was not in
the first day in jail, but on the second day. One guy told me in very
hard
English that law in Italy is that they can keep me in jail without
giving me
charges for 5 days, and I said, "Oh shit!".
A: Were you able to speak with other people in prison? Were you alone?
B: Yes. When we arrived we were also taken to body-search and after
that they
put us one by one into the cells. I was two days alone and after that
we moved
by two people. For two days I was alone and nobody talked to me and
I was
asking for a lawyer, even a call to let somebody know I was there.
I was not
allowed to do anything. Staying alone I was driving crazy.
A: Before, when we were speaking you told me that in your country
police told
to your family that you were a criminal, and that you could have
killed a
policeman or stuff like that. Can you explain this?
B: I am not absolutely sure about this but my father told me when I
called him
that he was given information that I was quoted like a really serious
criminal
and that there is a videotape showing me with I do not know what kind
of arm,
but he said with some arm trying to confront policemen or something.
Really
hard criminal situation, that was what they told him.
A: After jail what happened?
B: After jail it was court and there was a lawyer, but I saw the
lawyer only  when I came already to the judge.
A: After two days that you were there?
B: Yes, just one hour before they took me away. I talked to the judge
and
then I was waiting for half an hour. Then she said that I am not guilty
and
that I'm gonna be immediately released.
A: What did the judge ask you?
B: The judge was a pretty kind woman and the only thing was she read
me the
police report. The charges was that the school was full of black bloc
people
and that we were fighting police and I was told all the stuff that
you can
read in newspapers too.
A: So you told her this was not true?
B: Yes, and then she asked me what happened in the school, I told everything
that I saw.
A: It is important that you can say that there was no beating between
people
in  the school. It is important because the police are saying
they had to do
what they did because people responded with violence. You can say
that it is
absolutely false?
B: Yes.
A: You told me that this judge said that the accusations against
you were
that  you were involved in the aggression against a policeman
inside the
school.
B: That's right.
A: So, did you aggress anyone inside the school? That's more important
did
you see anyone making aggressions against the police? I am asking
this
because now the police in Italy is saying what they did, the violence
in the
school by the  police was only a response to an aggression
made from people
inside.
B: I can tell one more time that it was no need to do any action of
police like they did because there was nothing against police, absolutely
nothing. They did  not ask us anything, they did not ask to give
up or to go
out or to lay down. They just came and beat us. I was not doing anything
against policemen and I am hundred per cent sure that nobody was. There
was
such a panic, people were just trying to hide their heads. Everybody
was with
closed eyes and hands or arms on the head trying to defend and police
was
just shouting something and beating people. I am sure that nobody did
nothing against police. Defend, that's  what I saw. It is something
against
police to defend your face with the arms from the beat of the sticks?
A: After speaking to the judge what happened?
B: There were some questions and I answered to that. They were asking
me
what happened in the school and I told her all the truth the same I
say now.
Then it  was as I said in half an hour I will know what is the
decision and I
was told that I am not guilty and that I will be immediately released.
So
after all that stuff like fingerprint and many papers, I did not know
anything where I am going and the passport was missing and money was
missing. I was taken to the police station after this, there was also
some
bureaucracy like making documents. After the police station I was taken
to
airport to Milan without passport and without money. Even police knew
there
were no flights from Milan to my country, and I was dropped. I was
told I
can not stay in Italy and I cannot come for five years, I am "persona
non
grata" for five years.
A: When did you think for the first time that everything could be
finished
and you could be free?
B: Just when the judge said that I am not guilty. Till that time it
was, I
mean, what I saw in the school I thought it is really possible situation
that
if police was so fascistic in the police station and in the jail that
they
can tell they found the sticks, these sticks belong to me and with
the stick
I beat a  policeman in the street and because of that I can be
put to jail for
one year. I really thought that was possible and that was driving me
crazy.
Those were the most scareful things, because I thought that it was
possible.
A: Do you think this now? they could have done?
B: Now I see that things are all right and many people know, things
are
getting better because many people got interested about this and media
and
all that. Then I thought that if nobody knows about me, I was not allowed
to
call, so   maybe nobody knows about me, my parents. I thought
they gonna
accuse me and I'll go to jail for one year. I thought it was really
possible.
A: Did you have the impression of illegality of what happened
during these days  from Saturday to Monday? Could you see some
kind of
contrast between the judges  and the police? The police did
something that
judges would not have allowed?
B: There was a total difference. When I saw the judge and the lawyers
it was
a small room. Judge and some assistant, then translator Italian-English
and
then lawyer and there was totally different atmosphere in the room,
I felt
like a man, they said what my rights. I had right to not answer, they
treated
me like a normal man. What happened in the school and in the police
station
before, it  was incredible, all human rights were totally ignored.
Every human
has the right to know what's going on at least if police is beating
him or
arresting him. They have to tell what's the reason, why. And nobody
was told.
The police, especially carabinieri they were not democratic, and no
respect
of human rights.
A: Is it possible something like this in your country?
B: In my country it is a bit sad situation with the jails because of
economic
situation. The government has no money. But about human rights, if
you are
arrested, no.
A: Do you think that in your country could have happened something
like you
saw  these days in Italy?
B: I am not from a G8 country, as Italy is, but still I am from a democratic
country and there have never been in my country such things and I do
not think
that it will happen, police so obviously ignoring human rights. I mean
very
obviously. Not in my country.
A: There were other people with you in jail and at the police station,
lot
of them were wounded. We could see that with our eyes. Do you think
that you
and other people were left and taken to the airport or to the border
very
fast to not be seen by the people or the journalists?
B: I think that is obvious because to pay for such a big group of people
and
they are paying money for the tickets to Britain and Germany and other
places. They do not have any reason to do that as everybody has to
come back
on his own. It obvious that they want to shut this thing very quickly
without
showing anything. I think the police and the government, they understand
that
they are in  really deep shit about this. They were trying to
close it.
A: Now you are a "persona non grata" for Italy. This paper we do
not think
it is totally legal, but I am not sure. For this reason you will
not be
allowed to return for five years to Italy. If you could return after
five
years, or before if you can change these things, would you like
to return?
Would you like to come to demonstrate in Italy? Do you think Italy
is a
country where you can  demonstrate pacifically?
B: Now I have the feeling that Italy in not a safe country to do a
demonstration, but I would like to mention that I do not think that
Italy is
a bad country as I really see that there is not only police in Italy.
There
are really many good people and people who helped while I was in jail
and
there are really anti-fascistic movements, anti-capitalistic and so
on. If I
had the chance to go to one more demonstration, I will go because what
police
did obviously was to scare the people from go and stand up for their
rights.
The only reason was to scare people and to let everybody know that
such
things happen and try to frighten everybody. I am not afraid and if
I have got
the chance I will go one more time and if I get arrested, I get arrested.
But
it is my right to go and tell what I want and they are ignoring my
rights. I
think that some day they should be stopped.