Our right to protest
Cath Conway | 02.05.2001 14:36
Why was our legal right to protest taken from us yesterday and why is noone discussing this? Half report- half reply to those who are posting abusive messages.
Yesterday, in the eyes of the mass media, was a tactical victory for the police in the sense that they stopped a lot of potential violence/ damage, but it was a sad day for our right to protest.
What actually went on at Oxford Circus has been well documented on this site but noone appears to be discussing the long-term implications. The real problems lie in what happened on route there. We were restricted at every point, all main bridges were blocked, Regent Street & Ox St so we couldn’t get to Oxford Circus even though we were an hour earlier than the proposed meeting time (although we obviously did but only through using random side streets). Now, I assume that wonderful piece of legislation, the Criminal Justice Bill, put the provisos in place for the police to legally do this but there is a very serious issue about our right to protest and demonstrate which we were denied yesterday by having our routes blocked at all points thereby stopping any form of a rally from forming. The police got away with this under the guise of the ‘perceived threat of violence’ (just think about the implications of the word perceived.)
The point is a lot of people are unhappy with the way things (read; the world) are going and want to do something about it and, which ever way you look at it, its our right to do something as well as our individual and collective responsibility to do something constructive for the other 364 days of the year.
I’m not advocating throwing fire extinguishers at police horses but since when did a 100% non-violent protest ever work? (think CND, how many nuclear warheads are hanging around now?) Realistically, the only real violence came as the people were let out of the pig(s) pen- if you had been hemmed in for 6 hours wouldn’t you be a bit pissed off?
Whether it was effective as a protest will remain to be seen. The issues that people are concerned about at the minute are not everyone’s cup of tea and that’s fine but just think: at some point in the future it is almost certain that you will want to protest about something. Unless people start to think rationally about protests and the people that attend etc, the government will slyly put some legislation through whilst fuelling the idea that the type of people that go on these marches are all loonies.
I'm not an anarchist (and truthfully nor are half the people that claim to be [no disrespect to those that are])- I'm more concerned with what we do for the other 364 days of the year and how we start planning now for next year so that this doesn't happen again.
Answers on a postcard please
What actually went on at Oxford Circus has been well documented on this site but noone appears to be discussing the long-term implications. The real problems lie in what happened on route there. We were restricted at every point, all main bridges were blocked, Regent Street & Ox St so we couldn’t get to Oxford Circus even though we were an hour earlier than the proposed meeting time (although we obviously did but only through using random side streets). Now, I assume that wonderful piece of legislation, the Criminal Justice Bill, put the provisos in place for the police to legally do this but there is a very serious issue about our right to protest and demonstrate which we were denied yesterday by having our routes blocked at all points thereby stopping any form of a rally from forming. The police got away with this under the guise of the ‘perceived threat of violence’ (just think about the implications of the word perceived.)
The point is a lot of people are unhappy with the way things (read; the world) are going and want to do something about it and, which ever way you look at it, its our right to do something as well as our individual and collective responsibility to do something constructive for the other 364 days of the year.
I’m not advocating throwing fire extinguishers at police horses but since when did a 100% non-violent protest ever work? (think CND, how many nuclear warheads are hanging around now?) Realistically, the only real violence came as the people were let out of the pig(s) pen- if you had been hemmed in for 6 hours wouldn’t you be a bit pissed off?
Whether it was effective as a protest will remain to be seen. The issues that people are concerned about at the minute are not everyone’s cup of tea and that’s fine but just think: at some point in the future it is almost certain that you will want to protest about something. Unless people start to think rationally about protests and the people that attend etc, the government will slyly put some legislation through whilst fuelling the idea that the type of people that go on these marches are all loonies.
I'm not an anarchist (and truthfully nor are half the people that claim to be [no disrespect to those that are])- I'm more concerned with what we do for the other 364 days of the year and how we start planning now for next year so that this doesn't happen again.
Answers on a postcard please
Cath Conway
e-mail:
cathconway@hotmail.com
Comments
Hide the following 61 comments
Proposals?
02.05.2001 15:03
M.P. (mindless pig)
Who are you M.P.?
02.05.2001 15:19
You might not care but we do so try and say something usefull go on I dare you...
Cath Conway
e-mail:
cathconway@hotmail.com
They declared war on democratic rights
02.05.2001 15:24
Then politicians pontificate about "freedom"
I was searched, I was followed, I was photographed I was held in corralls against my will. My intentions to protest peacefully were thwarted by the police at every turn. I am damn sure that unless there is a major stink about this, many people will hesitate to go on future actions, if they believe they face hours of internment without access to basic amenities, in the rain for hours on end.
It's all Spin, Spin, Spin. Ask your MPs what actions they are going to take in light of this. Ask them if they commend the police. Ask them if they support the right to freedom of assembly.
If voting or old style protests had any effect, they would have banned them long ago.
Rooibard
e-mail:
Rooibard@aol.com
What happened?
02.05.2001 15:32
It seems that they control this discourse as easily as they cordon us off in public spaces and film us from the floors above shops.
Basically, the effect of actions like yesterday always ends up being discussion about the police - were they good at their jobs or were they bad at their jobs. This is the case both in the corporate media and in discussion amongst protesters. The real issues get sidelined. This is pretty handy for the opponents of humankind who can get on with business as usual (well, the day after anyway).
I think the purpose of all protests are as follows:
1. To allow the protesters to express their feelings.
2. To practically prevent something from happening or make something happen.
3. To educate people not involved - make indelible in their minds the issues inciting people to risk getting twatted by armoured thugs.
4. To display to those in power that people are not happy and there is demand for change.
At the moment we are not getting far past 1 (at least not when it comes to large scale actions such as yesterdays). We are letting the police, and ultimately their masters, divert us into an us vs. them scenario, but we end up going against the wrong them.
We need to work out how to make protest more effective in avoiding this sort of situation, as well as tactically better.
We also need to get our aims a little clearer in our own minds.
Means and ends need refining - I guess they always will, and that is the freedom we strive for!
%-)
%-)
e-mail:
blindmind@runbox.com
On Violence
02.05.2001 15:42
there were a couple of people in oxford circus who were looking for a fight and did not seem to care who they picked it with, pushing other protestors around and hitting them
I do not want to show solidarity with these few people who intimidated and harrassed others while penned in at oxford circus, end of story
these same people were to the fore during the incidents
one thing i remember well is the cheers going up when some stuff was chucked at the boarded up front of niketown, but when one guy in full view of the crowd went to trash the hanging basket the crowd booed and he backed off. the basket got trashed anyway
as to the police tactics, people need to get smarter, if the police keep doing this on demonstrations soon everyone will be classed as terrorists and this kind of protest will be unworkable. this is of course what the police and government want.
-
Tactics
02.05.2001 15:49
One of the problems was meeting on Oxford Street - everyone knew what would happen with a focal point designated in advance. We played right into their hands - AGAIN! The strength of what happened yesterday was the smaller demos and Critical Mass spread out across the city. Unfortunately they were overshadowed by "Sale of the Century" at the end of the day. What was on sale anyway - the title suggests looting was PLANNED to many people outside the movement and those with unsubtle minds. To those people the police HAD to be present and HAD to be nasty.
I have to say that the Wombles/Ya Basta!/Tute Biache are a development in protesting that has to be admired and used in future. But there is much development to go. Lets learn from our mistakes this time, because the police cordoned us in in the same way at Parliament Square last year and Euston Station the year before, and MANY OTHER TIMES!
We need to get as smart as the police, or as close as possible. They have excellent lines of communication, intelligence, mobility. The public has access to much of this, if to a less sophisticated level. We have our strengths and they have theirs, with some overlap each way. Next year people need maps as well as bust cards - maps showing the lines of escape as well as congregation.
Next year I reckon we should be more distributed. How to acheive this? We don't need to have a "big name" protest to bring in extra people - I don't think the extra people turning up at Oxford Circus achieved as much as the ones who headed to the other protests - perhaps those who saw what happened at Oxford Circus will get involved in more constructive actions in the future, which is a positive outcome, but Oxford Circus can have done little else.
The "big name" actions just seem to attract the wrong sort of attention in all sorts of areas. If they happened spontaneously things would be different of course. I think the idea was there with the Monopoly theme, but it was too tempting to go for a main ring to the circus.
Another thing is we mess up tactically compared to the police, but also end up going for a "win the hill" sort of aim. Do we really need to "hold" Oxford Circus to get our point across?
I don't know. I hope this is constructive criticism. Others surely know better what was going on and have other ideas about what to do. Most of all it needs discussing GLOBALLY!
%-)
e-mail:
blindmind@runbox.com
Use of Techonology
02.05.2001 16:17
There could also be hotlines for people with mobile phones to contact. There could be 2 types of hotline:
1) Listen to a recorded update of what's going on
and where. Would include details of protests and
current police actions.
2) Talk to an individual to ask more specific questions.
Some peaceful organisation could do this. They would
not be 'hijacking' the demo, just playing a valuable part,
contributing an information service.
The gist of this message is to say that basically the
movement needs more COORDINATION. That word
in timidate some people but it shouldn't. What I'm
advocating is not the introduction of some sort of
hierarchical organisational order (which most
people wouldn't follow anyway) but simply that
we all have access to plenty of clear concise
information.. and then make our own minds up.
We don't have to be told what to do, but if we know
what's going on and where then that will help us
make our own minds up sensibly where to go
and where to avoid and so on.
On the other hand, a completely different suggestion
would be that maybe we could organise something
which DOES have police consent, something like
the Berlin Love Parade or something. Some sort of
official street festival / carnival... but with people not just
partying but protesting about global capitalism.
Just a thought...
Whichever way it goes, next year we DO need more
cooperation between the large numbers of people involved, and this can be achieved hopefully to a very large degree just by improving the infrastructure of communication whilst still retaining a flat hierarchy.
BTW it was FANTASTIC to see so many LEGAL OBSERVERS amongst the crowd yesterday afternoon.
That's definitely a good development.
Mr S
No democracy anyway.
02.05.2001 16:48
The Critical Mass was stopped next. On attempting to join the picket of Coutts Bank in the Strand police blocked the cyclists from entering the Strand. When asked why a police officer said: "The procession is being stopped under Section 60." (The Critical Mass carried on though despite this.)
Next was the procession to Oxford Circus - again no trouble of any kind - people hemmed in for 6 hours in the rain without food, toilets or anything else.
Yes the democratic right was taken away yesterday. But a friend said to a policeman: "You can't be claiming to defend democracy after today."
The policeman's reply was short, honest, and to the point: "We never claimed to be!"
Most so called protest in this country is just an acted out play. People march, the Government never takes a blind bit of notice, and we and the government all pretend how marvellous it is to be living in this wonderful democracy.
What is key with May Day and similar protests is is that parts of the population were taking themselves out of Government control, beginning to take charge themselves. This is what the government fears because ultimitely it destroys their raison d'etre. That is what's being cracked down on.
The outcome of such protests, if continued will be either a revolution or the Government making some pretty big concessions - both of which they are keen to stop.
I also think much of what was done by the police had nothing to do with the protesters that were there. It had to do with those that weren't there. It was an attempt to scare people away.
The establishment is getting scared - something we should be proud of.
Sheffield Mayday
e-mail:
sheffieldmayday@disinfo.net
View from Ireland
02.05.2001 16:51
Direct Action and street protests are unsustainable without deep roots. If we as a movement focus all our energy on these short-lived manifestations we are wasting ourselves, predictably playing into the hands of authority. What are our long term aims? Are we trying to create a just, ecologically sensible society or are we just letting off a bit of steam in confronting the police before going back to work. Carnivals, protests and demos are wonderful, affirming, celebrating our lives and asserting right to resist injustice but without the longterm, steady work in between to back them up they will be disempowering as they fail to live up to expectations. We have to look at our lives. Where is our water coming from? Where is our food coming from? Who is making the clothes we wear? Who is our rent going to? How are we making our money? Are we cooperating in our daily lives to the same level we might in preparing for an event? If we aren't happy with the answers we need to do something about it, look at what we do want. That takes work that may not give us the instant buzz we look for at a protest but that will ultimately feed our actions when we come to do them. We'll be calmer, more grounded, less easy to manipulate and push about. We need to work on this.
John
John
Fighting them on their own ground
02.05.2001 16:52
Second, and most worrying I think, is the new tactics which the police are using with increasing frequency, especially those set out in the Terrorism Act. We need to learn to understand this better and how we can fight it. I have been told that the legal defence group has been wound down, and I want to know if this is true, and if so, how we can build it up again, because this is more vital than ever. We need more legal observers, and more know-how and ideas of how far police can go, and beyond that the extent to which we can fight back. This is the second demo i've been on recently where they cordoned a group of people off for a considerable period of time, and they're obviously very sure of this tactic. We also need to build wider awareness of this and campaign against it.
Finally, many people left very early yesterday because they didn't want to be involved in violence. On future demos we need to keep people around for longer by different means - have other activities going on around the edges to keep people around and use their presence as passive resistance.
Again, these are just my first thoughts, but this is an important process, and I would be interested to know if anyone else knows how these can be fed into the 'movement'?
Nick
e-mail:
nickdearden@hotmail.com
Nothing to do with tactics...
02.05.2001 17:08
This comment has no point, im surprised it even has punctuation but the authorities wanted to have violence so they could blame people afterwards and hit them at the time... they were so heavy handed people couldnt do anything.....
flame me
wonko the sane
youngrebels.com
02.05.2001 17:32
Dutch
Homepage:
http://www.youngrebels.com
Keep the ideas coming
02.05.2001 17:54
Communication is the key, and with communication you need a chain of command to effectively implement strategy and react to given circumstances quickly.
With such resources as The internet (think webcams), WAP phones, mobile phones in general, handheld radios(2-way) and satellite/cable TV news available to us all these need to be utilised from a central HQ feeding info out to personnel on the streets at key locations and in the thick of the action and in turn they will be passing info back to the HQ where decisions can be made.
The police tactics yesterday in London was divide and conquer. Divide the marchers up thus severing collective consciousness and communications and making them easier to handle. Conquer them by hemming them in, dictating their movements and controlling (overall) how long they can stay there.
Effective tactics indeed. Add into this the overwhelming amounts of police and tactical support and you see what you are up against.
A thought for further action in the future would be to fragment the protests to differing locations throughout the city (not just Oxford Circus area). By fragmenting into groups of say 400-500 protestors spread all over the place you also split your enemy and stretch his resources and are in affect then dictating his next move.
These fragmented protests would cause as much if not more chaos to a wider area to the city. It would also be harder to see the divide and conquer tactics we saw yesterday being used, because you are all ready divided up.
Then, at a pre-planned time, and I would suggest in the evening, all groups would make their way to a pre-planned, publicised sight, such as Trafalgar square. Obviously this would be policed heavily but by that stage in the day your objectives have already been acheived and the final rally is the coup de gras.
Add into all this a more effective chain of command and communications based at a central HQ away from the portests, then I think you will have a winning formula.
I realise this is a rough plan, but with the work and planning next year could indeed be a truly anti-capitalist day.
I salute you all and thanks for listening.
Jules
UK
Jules
e-mail:
envox@cotse.com
Sabotage is the only choice in a police state
02.05.2001 18:13
We have to face the fact that protest is futile in an autocratic police state and a world where the democratic deficit is growing wider and wider. The time for protest has ended - we must now take the movement underground. We can make ourselves heard through sabotage and damage to property. Like the laughing arsonists in India, we can truly shake the foundations of the system. This is not terrorism, it is revolution.
We will achieve nothing as hippy party-goers dressed in pink. We cannot simply talk in platitudes about love and peace. We can't turn up to protests and avoid the agents of violence - the police - who simply abuse our human rights. The time has come for action. The time has come for beginning to tear down this unjust and ruthless system. The time has come for launching an anonymous army of saboteurs.
El corto
e-mail:
fatcat@conservative2001.org.uk
Homepage:
www.conservative2001.org.uk
Answer on a postcard
02.05.2001 19:09
Aiming for a meet in Oxford Circus was an invitation to being penned in, and being recorded on the Oxford Street security cameras. But the Met's strategy led to a successful outcome - Oxford Street was closed for at least half the day, buses, taxis etc kept away, the air was clean and apart from the helicopters, it was wonderfully quiet. This relentless shopping venue/transport route usually only closes one day of the year (Xmas). Only Selfridges & some small businesses were open. To shut it like that is a major achievement.
If the Met were to apply the same strategy on the same spurious grounds to the 'hard-core' anarchic revellers who run amok in central London most nights of the week, then the media would be full of how 5000 riot police will keep on penning 500 clubbers into Covent Garden Piazza from 2am to 10am. All those city & other office workers would find out how it feels, instead of carrying on with impunity as they do now. This won't happen of course, because the revellers have no political protest as motive, and only make ordinary people suffer instead of smashing some plate glass belonging to big companies. Yob culture OK, freedom to protest, not OK.
aronia
A Suggestion
02.05.2001 19:28
thanks for your time,
greg ericson
fpi
FPI
Homepage:
www.freepressinternational.com
Buy a stock or two in companies
02.05.2001 20:01
Work on creating temporary autonomous zones where people can experience freedom without sanction from corporations or the state.
Combine protest with helpfullness i.e. feeding people, informing people look for the needs of those around you and fulfil them while informing them.
Build connections with people in your community.
Make sure that when you protest that you have alot of literature that explains clearly what you are doing.
Carry out smaller actions, combined with info campaigns.
Use the technique of repetition that corporations use so often.
Make sure to inform people of the effects that so-called "free trade" unfettered multinationals and unaccountable trade bodies/banks will have on them personally.
Use technology creatively:
Also think about the vulnerabilities of the multinationals.
Where are their weaknesses.
Yesterday at the protests in the city were I live alot of observers did not know what was going on but they were open to learning. I took every opportunity to talk to people outside
of the protests. Once I explained May DAy and it's meaning and significance in this day and age many people were open and more informed. I encoureged them to get active as well and to spread the word amongst their friends and family.
Also it is important to not just talk to those who share our alarm about corporate power and state repression but to extend ourselves to as many as possible who know little about current events and are convinced that all is well.
There is an interesting article about the effectiveness of the first suggestion at:
educate, organize, and rise up!
000
Homepage:
http://commondreams.org/views01/0502-04.htm
Buy a stock or two in companies
02.05.2001 20:04
Work on creating temporary autonomous zones where people can experience freedom without sanction from corporations or the state.
Combine protest with helpfullness i.e. feeding people, informing people look for the needs of those around you and fulfil them while informing them.
Build connections with people in your community.
Make sure that when you protest that you have alot of literature that explains clearly what you are doing.
Carry out smaller actions, combined with info campaigns.
Use the technique of repetition that corporations use so often.
Make sure to inform people of the effects that so-called "free trade" unfettered multinationals and unaccountable trade bodies/banks will have on them personally.
Use technology creatively:
Also think about the vulnerabilities of the multinationals.
Where are their weaknesses.
Yesterday at the protests in the city were I live alot of observers did not know what was going on but they were open to learning. I took every opportunity to talk to people outside
of the protests. Once I explained May DAy and it's meaning and significance in this day and age many people were open and more informed. I encoureged them to get active as well and to spread the word amongst their friends and family.
Also it is important to not just talk to those who share our alarm about corporate power and state repression but to extend ourselves to as many as possible who know little about current events and are convinced that all is well.
There is an interesting article about the effectiveness of the first suggestion at:
educate, organize, and rise up!
000
Homepage:
http://commondreams.org/views01/0502-04.htm
talk !
02.05.2001 21:48
particularly those who DISAGREE with us. it's easy to find people who agree with us at festivals or raves, but it's not those people who might be interested in learning the truth.
tell them how it all works - fractional reserve lending, tv, newspapers, state education as a form of brainwashing, distortion of the judicial system, disinformation, distractions, problem/reaction/solution, divide and rule, and so on.
talking about third world dictatorships tends to leave people cold, but telling them that their trainers or haversack was made by an eight year old doing a fourteen hour shift has more effect. especially if they are parents themselves.
i think we're winning ! everyone i spoke to at work today saw the police behaviour on the news. it spoke for itself, to most people.
love & light
john
john
constructive advice
03.05.2001 00:26
In case you just skimmed over, s/he's managed to get across a whole load of well developed, labour efficient tangible Things To Do, each of which would usually be a whole entry preceded by reasoning.
In case anyone thinks these things are trivial, I'll vouch that they're the conclusions of many a detailed argument.
Let's do it!
000 yeah
Some things things I forgot
03.05.2001 00:54
And friendships with your coworkers.
000
Homepage:
http://www.crocker.com/~acacia/text_gsif.html
Phorward
03.05.2001 01:15
Towards the end of the 5th hour of my detention I heard a copper in Oxford circus explaining to two asian men that "there's no point in coming to another demonstration like this, no point. It'll just happen again like this. So there's no point in coming, it's no fun is it?"
Where ever things go after Mayday the implications need to be clear. The police tactics said we were all criminals and treated thousands accordingly. Increasingly heavy legislation is now ranged against anyone who dares to act in defiance. Police have found their new tactic in Section 60, but the legitamacy of its massive use yesterday must be challenged in as many ways as possible, and creatively on the streets.
Also as noted by others some amazing shifts have occured recently, partly due to the media's concentration on loony violence. When the Evening Standard comes out with an editorial saying we all know that there are serious problems with the capitalist system, and numerous tv news debates and sounbites acknowledge that mayday protestors have the right target one can't fail to be impressed that things have moved a bit here. It seems many have taken on board the message and in the context of Mayday have taken that as accepted, choosing to condemn the hyped violence as the main story. OK there were lots of people saying opposing capitalism is stupid and pointless, but enough didn't.
I remember the closing remarks of a film about Reclaim the streets shown on Ch 4 where it said something like "whenever a movement begins to gain popular support it is demonised and tempted into ever more spectacular and violent confrontaions until it is split and marginalised".
Over the past couple of years the 'anti-capitalist / anti-globalisation' movement has won many hearts and minds - it has also become the target for the state, in countries throughout the world more repressive legislation is being passed and increasingly military style operations used to curtail protests. Where to next?
Continue the battle. Well yes, but as people opposed to the systems, and with so many now receptive to the key messages, more collective effort is required on positive alternatives.
Also looking at the large spectacular demonstrations that have occured over the last 2 years outside of this country, they have involved trade unions and 'respectable' NGOs. Perhaps such co-operation is impossible here, but maybe it's worth a try.
-
TICTACS
03.05.2001 01:51
Of course we don't need to 'hold' Oxford Street. The strength of Oxford Street was not the big shops, but as a place which it's hard to surround. The only point in staying there was to avoid getting hemmed in at Trafalgar Square (incidentally a success which went unnoticed- though people were hemmed in, the police were on the defensive rather than controlling the show).
Members of the crowd whose main goal was not to be contained didn't get contained. Many people wandered the side streets and wouldn't go into the denser crowd (denser the crowd the less cops it takes to surround). Not to mention the Wombles.
Use of Technology:
WAP is not practical for a demo. SMS can just about be worked. The best idea I heard is broadcasting to an affinity group (<10) of mobiles from a 121 phone by sending a single message to uboot.com (if you like it, spread it)
I would also like to congratulate one Rupert Murdoch for playing his part. Knackered after following the Wombles ALL around the Monopoly board, we rested up in a pub near Oxford St, where sky news showed continuous overhead coverage with roving audio reporters alerting us to the Titchfield St - Tottenham Ct Rd clearance.
If Indymedia wants to be this accessible, it wouldn't take much to get London's cybercafes to stay open in exchange for extra business (as well as konwing they're safe from mad rioters cos they're on our side)
The Wombles
were fucking amazing! This is the barely mentioned success story of the day. They ran (figurative and literal) rings around the police. Cops were completely taken by surprise and showed how much use they are at containment when you don't behave as they expect you to. A crowd of hundreds ran around the police lines, onto Bond St, through Soho, to Gray's Inn Road (and further before I lost them) without the need for violence. As no damage was caused by this group, it was technically not riot and was 'disappeared' from the TV news at the same time as the politicians released their message. (Some connection?)
!!!WOMBLING IS THE WAY FORWARD!!!
tomsk
100 people per corner wouldshut down any city
03.05.2001 18:35
would pretty much shut down any city.
Monitoring police communications is also a must, and with the relay system, the information can be passed over great distances quickly. Cops are morons, and anyone should be embarrased to be out smarted by them.
skinner
new kent rd thing
04.05.2001 00:52
However as soon as it became obvious the majority wanted to go north I was right with everyone else and was as dissappointed as anyone that we didn't make it together, though the majority of us got there anyway.
Anyway, that was nothing to do with the subject in hand, and certainly don't think its as important which way we went as that we gathered at all. :)
ginger
more organisation? pah!
04.05.2001 01:45
A single point of organisation means predictable monitorable actions easily controllable by the police.
It's not just about changing the world, but ourselves as well. Take control of your own life. Form an affinity group, act as a collective, and feel empowered. Follow a chain of command, assume you have to join someone else's organisation and you maybe thinking revolutionary thoughts but you are not ready for a revolution.
ginger
Election time
04.05.2001 10:21
Eddie Docherty
e-mail:
eddie.docherty1@ntlworld,com
Keep evolving
04.05.2001 11:13
1. The Daily Mirror's headline "One-nil to the Bill" was almost correct although surely it should have read 2-1 to the protestors. I think that on the third attempt even the Police had worked out how to deal with the threat.
2. The split between peaceful protestors and those that think the only action is to attack property was easy for the mass media to exploit. They were able to scare off a lot of people that did not want violence, and these people are required to form the critical mass. (I don't know what the answer is to that)
3. Using technology is probably the way forward. The Police etc were certainly caught off guard by the organisational powers of the internet on the first City Demo two years ago. The increasing avaiablity of mobile computing in the comming years will give oppotunities Web sites accessable by WAP phone and hand held computers could be used. The main disadvatage is that you will not be the only one's who can see the information, and it would not be difficult to disable the sites or even turn off the mobile phone network.
4. Use the Police tactics against them, they might be happy to close off Oxford Street for several hours, but it would not go down too well on the last Saturday before X-mas. Or what about the transport system - (I think) 1 million people pass through Waterloo each day, holding a large croed in there would not be acceptable.
Keep evolving keep them guessing - their reaction shows these demonstrations have them worried.
Mark
Re: Yob culture ok...
04.05.2001 11:41
positive thing. Yob culture isn't about clubs,
it's about pubs... and football.
Alcohol = violence,
Ecstacy = peace.
Cannibis = peace.
Natural high = peace
If you go to a decent underground techno night
you'll find that most of the revellers are
(off duty as it were) anti-capitalists anyway.
Discalimer: Don't take drugs, drugs are bad.
Also, what about Xmas day:
why not all have one big anti capitalist party / demonstration
on Xmas day!
No seriously!! :-)
pseudonym 2
Re: More Organisation Pah!
04.05.2001 12:17
you seem to have misunderstood my call for
'more organisation'.
I specifically emphasised that what we need is
FLAT HIERARCHY (ie NO CHAIN OF COMMAND).
We need a loose confederation, striking a balance
between strict hierarchical control and utter chaos.
It wasn't the wombles' chaos that was their success,
it was their organisation: the wombles had been trained, the wombles knew what they were doing.
We need MORE COORDINATION through better communication. I entirely advocate everyone doing their own thing (whilst remaining legal of course).
But we have to all be linked up... not so much so as to stifle us but so as to have the upper hand over the police. I've heard it said that 'a crowd is a very stupid creature' this is because of the lack of communication between constituent individuals. If we all knew what was going on then we could make up our own minds what to do more effectively, either as individuals or as small groups... and that kind of informal organisation / coordination will work wonders. People will go where the demand is, not because they are obeying orders from the top, but because they can clearly see that that would be a good place to go. We need loose informal communication links so that it's not just the police who have 'intelligence' and not just the police who are working together.
And I'm the first to admit that the kind of organisation we want is NOT a top down hierarchy. We don't need a CHAIN OF COMMAND and I never once suggested that we did.
BTW I hope this doesn't sound like a call to arms or anything. I'm talking about PEACEFUL protest, and peaceful protest that doesn't get sabotaged by the police. I do NOT advocate any kind of violence and I am NOT any sort of "RINGLEADER" - the whole point is that we don't have ring leaders. So anyone from the establishment snooping has nothing to fear from me.
We must build LINKS.
Um.. what else,
yeah WAP phones. I thought they were a great idea.
We can follow Indymedia on them. I don't think they're that unpractical. Anyone who thinks a WAP phone might be useful to bring along next year, feel free, you'll be able to access up to the minute information on what's happening where, where the police are acting unlawfully, where protests could do with more people, how many arrests lawful or unlawful have been carried out, and so on. I'm all for WAP phones.
Peace,
Tommy G
Thomas G.
Re: Election Time
04.05.2001 12:20
awareness!
A very worthy cause, it's not sexy but it's
VERY VERY important,
everyone talk to your friends and family
and everyone embarrass your politicians.
They'll censor the newspapers but they
can't censor the voices of individual human
beings.
Oral Communication is uncensorable!
Jeffy B
KEEP THE IDEAS COMING
04.05.2001 13:05
A centralised HQ???? Are you joking??? A centralised HQ whose location can be broken in minutes, raided and shutdown. More to the point, you're assuming that people want to be told what to do, you assume that they even want to be associated with the agenda of the people in the central HQ. The whole point is that the problems are generic.
People are protesting about a whole RAFT of problems that are symptomatic of an underlying problem, the fact that democracy has come to lean too heavily on corpratism. The corporates have come to have undue influence over what society becomes. They are taking the little power we have managed to accrue after centuries of struggle back out of our hands!
The only way to now take this into the mainstream is to concentrate on extremely rational arguments that cut to the core. To make future demonstrations as ABSOLUTELY non-violent as possible, to get as many people involved on the basis of their own moral principles as possible. The police and government, if they are as bad as people seem to think, will unmask theselves. If many people are involved, as individuals - not affiliated to any group, and there is violence then there will be a social counter reaction that comes to scrutinise the government very closely. It is happening already. If there is no suppression, but then there are no policy changes to boot - we start approaching the core issue, changing the voting systems so that alternative ideas can be expressed politically without HAVING to resort to semi-violent protest. etc. etc. etc.
The biggest mistake protesters can make is to assume that people are stupid. They are NOT, but there are many ways in which the population as a whole is not fully aware of the reality of their situation - if anybody is. Nobody should go into organisations with the intention of 'brain washing' people to their point of view - you become as bad as the people you hate. You must simply do what you feel is right - you must be purer that PURE (think Ghandi), and if you are right, and if you ARE oppressed, it will be all the more obvious. It will be all the more black and white.
reutlan
It wasn't a clear cut victory for them
04.05.2001 13:59
Question Time last night was interesting. The politicians lined up against the demonstrators of course, but there was not a single negative comment from the audience. Bill Morris (Transport and General Worker's Union) was the most interesting. He wasn't particularly good, he did express some worry about police/media hysteria, but he attacked the demonstrators for 'highjacking' may day.
There is a theme here. Last year I was on the 'worker's' TUC demo. We were stopped from getting to Trafalger Square. I think the best interpretation of this, and it fits with the kick off in Whitehall, is the establishment's fear of worker's and anti-capitalists (in reality the two overlap) joining forces. In the end it is not about the tactics on the day. If the establishment manage to isolate the anti-capitalists from the workers, then they can clamp down like on Tuesday. The challenge is to unite workers and anti-capitalists, not impossible, it was done in Seattle and in Quebec, this would:
1) Scare the shit out of the establishment
2) make it MUCH harder for them to clamp down like they did on Tuesday.
So, I don't think they controlled the discourse this week, they tried to but failed. There has been a shift towards greater sympathy with demonstrators, and greater suspicion of the police.
We should make unity of workers and anti-capitalists our challenge for next year.
ppprofane
e-mail:
ppprofane@yahoo.com
Re: ...become as bad as the people we hate
04.05.2001 14:08
Hugh Jones
hate
04.05.2001 15:21
Politics works through the manipulation of vested interests, it seems to be the only way to attain a state of control abstraction where a small number of people can influence a large (social) system (by leverging interests against one another to attain semi-predictable effects).
Unfortunately, once a political system becomes established, those self-same vested interests learn how to manipulate the system rather than being manipulated BY the system. They come to pursuade the politicians, directly and indirectly, to hold onto the status quo. Indirectly they do everything they can to support this. They turn those who desire change into the percieved enemies, and themselves into perceived friends - strengthening their grip.
You shouldn't hate it, it's just human nature, but you should pity it. We also have to work with/against it.
I simply say that many protest groups have adopted similar mentalities. It makes them easy targets, it makes the isolationist. It ultimately makes them totally counter productive.
reutlan
Fascist
04.05.2001 16:22
%-)
Discussion
04.05.2001 16:49
This means that this discussion is only realistically available to people who saw it on the day it appeared. It is useful discussion, and I am sure there are similar threads going on at the bottom of other articles, but who has time to search for them.
Perhaps a site for tactics needs to be set up - or does one exist, and if so where?
This is useful stuff, and if the people writing here can keep their momentum, we will have a momentuous action next time!
%-)
%-)
Ooops
04.05.2001 16:52
Cheers indymedia!
%-)
%-)
Loadsa good ideas
04.05.2001 16:58
but, as only one other contributor reminds us, and you may think it's old fashioned and has ran its course, There is a general election coming up....
Heckle the candidates!
Get assurances that they'll bring it up in the House if they get elected!
Nag Nag NAG them till they're sick of us and will do anything to get us off their cases....
Individually, next to nothing will come of it, but that's better than absolutely zero, and if ten thousand people EACH achieve next to nothing, that must add up to... well... something, maybe.
But it's still better than listening to the various negative messages hitting this site and then doing nothing.
We have to think in terms of loads of actions on a broad front gradually pushing forward, with this being just another piece of it... and remember nothing is ever achieved overnight ..
So stick at it Sisters and Brothers, just keep pushing and pushing.
Norfolk & chance
Blindmind, here is a Canadian's view.
05.05.2001 00:52
Spring Hope
Re: nothing was ever built over night
05.05.2001 13:57
Mr Smith
Re: Rome
05.05.2001 13:58
Mr Smith
Organisation.
05.05.2001 14:32
at Eros it was a complete shambles. No-one knew what was happening or what to do.
It was even worse at Oxford Circus. It's fair to say that the poice were just laughing at us , and with good cause.
Some others might agree but the act is tht the police are well trained, well
organised and on the whole are intelligent and well educated.
I was there to protest about poverty because I kow what it's like to grow up
with no money , no proper food and no prospects, but all I encountered on the day were
a bunch of middle class students wh have no idea what it is all about .
PS the so called legal observers were useless and had nothing decent to say when the pollice
made us all look like a bunch of twats.
I won't be back.
Tom
organisation
05.05.2001 14:41
However the real agents of vioence were not the police but many of the
so called protestors. When were hemmed in at Oxford circus I saw several
'demonstrators' hitting out at others. Maybe they were only there because there
was not any football matches to go to that day where they beat someone up .
Brian
we did reclaim Oxford Circus but...
05.05.2001 17:47
jon
e-mail:
chillumjon@hotmail.com
Reclaim the airwaves...
06.05.2001 06:40
radio station that might be doing a special
mayday broadcast.
Disclaimer: I'm not advocating anyone actually
setting up an illegal radio station - that would
be er.. illegal. But if someone was broadcasting
in the area and 'reclaiming the airwaves' then we
could all have a jolly good listen.
Also, wouldn't it be great if everyone in the crowd
was listening to the same radio station..
We'd be like... united.
Mr S
Work on the media
06.05.2001 10:32
I thought you all did very well in the face of very hostile
policing deemed necessary by the authorities after their mis information campiagn in the run up to may day.
I don''t want to go on record as lauding the Big Bullshit Company (BBC) but I thought five live were quite impartial with their coverage they included some very ironic comments from demonstraters and members of the public which highlighted some of the contradictions in of the police action. and some of the comments and the general attiitude of the presenters leads me to believe that cracks are appearing.
Since the advent of real alternative news netwoks , Indy media ect there is now an official second opinion which is leaking into the mass (corporate) media.I personally have demonstrated how vunerable the corporate media is to pranks and hoaxes most journalists are not so smart and they have very little common sense or genaral knowledge, it's these qualities that gets them their jobs .They do as there told and don't ask questions. Ridiculing the press slowly erodes their credibility and also gets them to write about stories they would not other wise write about. Anyone can do it from their own home or even more discreetly from internet cafes.
anyone who perhaps dooes not contact anyone else and therefore is un traceable by the cops hey they don't like this leaderless protest movement no office to trash or phone lines to tap no way of proving anything about anyone .
anyone can be Luther Blissett
By the way while everyone looking towards central london just up the rooad in Watford another mayday outrage took place
Gian Luca Vialli sacked Luther Blisset from Watford !
nice gesture
Luther blissett
e-mail:
luther_blissett@aruba.it
Homepage:
www.lutherBlissett.net
National Front in attendance
06.05.2001 12:10
What's more - nobody need even turnup!
Peace. and please remember - There are 365 days of protest every year.
luther blissett
e-mail:
martyrev@hotmail.com
work it out yourself
08.05.2001 02:23
sampan
e-mail:
samgriffin72@hotmail.com
Getting the 'protest' working next year..
08.05.2001 09:52
1). Legitimise the demonstration - I would imagine that there are a lot of people, like myself, who were intimidated by the bad (corporate media) prior to the event and had concerns what it could mean to me personally should I get caught up in a bad event. By proper planing, perhaps in co-operation with the police and officals, you can ensure that next years event will be smoother and gain a larger number of protestors.
2). Use the media. I watched BBC News all day and there were supprising few points from the protestors side (maybe due to sensorship). You MUST get people fronting the movement to get the word across. Personally I think the best 'speech' was actually from Ken Livingstone, at approximately 4.30 he gave a long uninterrupted speech agreeing that the protestors have a serious point and that these issued are very important. The tide is turning, make sure that you don't miss it.
what would I suggest for next year??
1). Fancy dress pinic in the park(s) - in ALL major cities.
2). Capatalist amnisty. Collect clothes/shoes from particular brands and donate to 3rd world charities.
3). Use of streamed internet radio to provide music and live information. Local (AM/FM) radio relays to individual citys.
Simon.
simon
e-mail:
anon
Simon - take your point, but . . .
08.05.2001 17:24
I take your point about legitimising the protests, but I don't really believe that they would have allowed it to be in Oxford Circus - do you?
I also know how you feel about being put off by the media, but I say don't be. They want people to be discouraged and intimidated. I don't think this is paranoid conspiracy mongering, just common sense. Its well known that media owners (I.e. Rupert Murdoch) are keen to use their newspapers to put their side across - and let's face it, their side ain't likely to be ours.
If you're in any doubt about the veracity of this, then look back at the reporting in the run up to Mayday (Most papers have archives on their website). Then compare it to the reality. Did you see:
- hordes of screaming anarchists at Mayday '01?
- Samurai-sword wielding psychopaths there?
- The 'Real IRA' planting bombs amongst protestors?
- Immigrants armed with Machetes?
- Turkish communists using women and children as 'shields'?
No, of course not. But, the important thing is that the fear was implanted at the back of your mind. Its a technique the Nazi's used against the Jews and it's called demonisation. If you videod any of Mayday, rewind it and look at the banners. Do you see hate filled proclamations of power? Or just those of people who aren't prepared to sit by and do nothing whilst multinationals make money from people's suffering?
But of course, surely the papers don't lie? Well, don't take my word for it. Do your own thinking and research. Hope to see you next year.
Peace.
Tinman.
trust / or lack of ...
08.05.2001 19:51
if you're pursuing justice following mayday events, it might be a good idea to keep control of your own case, and to drive it forwards yourself.
love & light
john
john
why do you think??????????
09.05.2001 00:40
pills
finger stuck on the ?
09.05.2001 18:00
john
Christmas Protest
16.05.2001 16:46
absent
Hot air ballons
18.05.2001 08:40
Oh and we need leaders. I know that's an unpopular idea, but some kind of focal point would bond the the many confused protestors/on lookers. That is why the Wombles had success, they had an image, a reputation, and when people saw them coming they followed. If the media did anything it was to make heros/demons of the Wombles well before Mayday. I'm sure they were one of the reasons people turned out in there droves to watch.
As far organising, people in general are too lazy. Make people contribute something finacially, and they'll start to get active! For exmaple, sponsored breaking through police lines; £10 for every one not breached, £1000 grand prize to the protestor who destroys the most private propety. I guess the point i'm making is that you don't see people setting fire to themselves. I'm not suggesting that anyone does, far from it, just that people don't seem to have the strength of their cvonvictions. If getting Photographed (however much it might be a total attack on your rights) puts a person off protesting next year, (as many people on this sight imply from their comments) then do they really believe in what they're doing, or do they kind of agree with the issues, and enjoy the status they get from being a "dangerous" protestor. If they passionately believe that they are right, and that the world will change then they should smile and wave at the police photographers. Well maybe not wave it could lead to batton charges.
Me
action in community
19.05.2001 19:21
Spontanous action can be organised. Je. Got to go
Peace
a
sabotarge and police state
20.05.2001 02:05
leg it.
"Fear" is what they use to cause a reaction that they can attack, The answer is NOT to do anything that they would like you to do, they would be well chuffed If we resort to THEIR tactics.
micky
e-mail:
Mick@mjames73.fsnet.co.uk
on WAP phones and such
29.05.2001 14:26
we tried using mobile phones on an Reclaim the streets action here in sweden. it was not our only means of communications, which was good as they all stoppped working at the same time. the police refuses to comment it, but it seems obvious they shut down the phone-net in that area, which really shows how easy a target you become when you totally rely on technology.
WAP phones could be usefull, but more than that, a hacker (government or fascist, or whatever) could easily send out desinformation to thousands of people - not a very good thing.
anyway, its a great discussion going on here. i learnt many good things from it. see ya on the streets.
www.motkraft.net/gbg2001 (www.gbg2001.org)
johan
Just fucking turn up!
12.06.2001 22:07
Love.
sean
no right to protest
08.07.2001 00:04
Whoever it was, they were lying.
The police can do whatever they want, whenever they want, and get away with it. The police are the private army of the rich. The whole "legal" and "democratic" process and the "rights" which it claims to protect is merely part of their power trip to keep us down & divided, as we maintain some kind of belief in the legitimacy of the legal process.When they need to they will intern us, torture us, kill us, and still maintain a pretence of legal legitimacy, saying they are acting to protect "democracy". They've done it before and will do it again. Just look at what they've been dong in the North of Ireland. Their whole concept of "democracy" is part of their control, designed to trick us into conforming. We are fighting a war and we need to wake up to it. Our victory will be the end of all their words of power; democracy / legality / police / justice / guilt / innocence / right / wrong / and many other words....all are used to keep us distracted, confused, unaware of our complete anarchy and freedom.
Real