The only way EVIL globalisation could be turned into a force for good is if we globalise in anarchy, take back our freedom and live in peace with nature, as it was meant to be. Governments exist for their own sake...not ours, if that's not blatantly obvious by now, go back to sleep.

That's great, smash the state and all that. Just after I finish this joint...

Now does anyone have anything useful to add, or are we all going to be waiting for the revolution?

Shut up and skin-up, Rev. There, was that useful?

You make some sense - good attempt. I don't see any point slagging you off until we know just where you're coming from.

Does Porto Alegre mean anything?
Globalise Resistance?
Do you follow misc.activism.progressive?

Sure, there is a groundswell amongst the suits - now they're being forsaken by the neo-crapitalist gobbleization mob. Hell, even Wolfie and Koehler are traipsing around Africa right now trying to smile at the dying protesters...

Peace and good health to you and anyone trying to find solutions to this mess.

mango

So I need credentials now to have a point of view? That's a bit rich. I could list how I've been involved but I won't stoop to that sort of bullshit. Sheesh elitism really is ingrained in this country! So should I call you Lord Mango from now on?

When I posted this message I wanted to see other peoples' ideas, not be judged based on how many protests I've been to or times I've been arrested. That really isn't relevant to the debate. Your post was worded politely but was in fact incredibly rude. How dare you imply my views are invalid because I don't meet your artitrary criteria.

With this sort of discussion holding the roost, I'm not surprised the WTO keeps us activists out of the meeting rooms. It would be a waste of everyone's time to have simple reactionary oppositioners saying "no" to every suggestion made.

How about constructive engagement folks? We can wait for the revolution and smash our "class enemies" at some mythical future point or we can meet with these people and work out a solution that helps. This of course does not mean selling out our values.

I can't think of one WTO or WHO or NWO ecocidal policy I would EVER say yes to. KILL THEM, DON'T COURT THEM!

Which just goes to show how cyber messages can be misconstrued.

I was attempting to defend your approach, Rev.

Touchiness has no place in the global movement towards peace and unity. Go check out the Porto Alegre stuff then maybe we can talk on the same wavelength.

I meant what I said - peace and good health to you - I cannot think of anything more precious to wish someone who at least appears to be trying to make sense of the present lunacy.

Now go smoke that joint - you obviously need it.

mango - with a small m - I am a campesino, plain and simple. I have ingrained dirt under my fingernails and I produce organic food for free.

Simon,

I've just been re-reading through this thread. Have you done that at all?

In your opening, you say:-

'Here are, perhaps, some starting points for discussion. I have to point out that I don't personally see globalisation as necessarily a force solely for evil.'

And you accuse me of elitism? Have you any idea how your 'starting points for discussion' grates on those who have been there? Had their bones broken for their beliefs? Had their minds torn apart with grief at the lethal depredations crapitalist gobbleization almost invariably leaves in its' wake?

And you a Christian? Then, in your first testy response you end with:-

'Now does anyone have anything useful to add, or are we all going to be waiting for the revolution?'

Which, apart from the arrogant agression :), implies you don't even realise that despite not being televised, the revolution is already well under way. Your questions have been aired in front of tens of thousands of sentient beings and have been found utterly wanting. The suits have left the moral plane far behind - now either they desist or they go under. Simple as that. Go check the responses and level of support at the WSF - 'twas all I asked of you.

Tune in, go softly,

mango
 http://www.environment.org.uk/activist/

Nobody cares if you boycott the election.
Nobody will remember you or your anger.
Don't forsake your right to vote!
When it comes to ballot time, write:-
NONE OF THE ABOVE - X

or just vote NOBODY - X
 http://uk.geocities.com/votenobody/page2.html

"despite not being televised, the revolution is already well under way." That's a very astute point mango, and what is screened in the most blatantly biased fashion, looks pretty 'full on' and it's a-comin' our way!!

You said:-
'and it's a-comin' our way!!'

Well, er no, not really. It's actually leaving us behind in the UK as our govt continues to clamp the lid down more and more securely. Most thinking activist folk are leaving, seems to me. The southern countries are where the cohesion and determination are rising at a stupendous rate. We're too comfortable and complacent here in the North - too far from the bleeding edge and oh, how it is bleeding.

mango

Mango, okay so mabye I took your words differently to your intention, however if you reread what you said, I think they're somewhat telling. In particular:

"I don't see any point slagging you off until we know just where you're coming from"

These do not sound like the words of someone defending me.

I am not a Christian. With the Rev I can see how you might think that. I am a devout evangelical atheist, in case you're wondering. The Rev is part joke and part play on the whole elitist title thing -- you get treated differently when you have a title or letters after your name. (I was amazed reading the Tory papers here to see how prevalent this is in their letters pages.)

When I said this: "I have to point out that I don't personally see globalisation as necessarily a force solely for evil." I was merely pointing out my point of view. I think that's important in discussions. Perhaps I should clarify WHY I don't see globalisation as inherently evil. Some globalisation measures could be forces for good, for example: Kyoto Convention, global labour laws, global environmental laws, global taxation laws. If the whole world can work together on one, narrow, thing -- "free" trade -- perhaps we can work together on other, more helpful, things. Mabye I'm just unrealistic.

"apart from the arrogant agression" - yeah sure I can see how my comments would piss off the anarchists. However, have a look at the responses already: "smash them all". Kill them all even. Yawn!

As for the revolution having already begun, I'll agree that there are murmurs. Indymedia is fantastic and the global protest movement IS making inroads. I'd hardly call it a revolution. When my mother and grandmother start talking about the evils of globalisation, I'll see a revolution. I think we need to move on from the basic forms of protest, without abandoning them and even intensifying them, and engage the debate. That way protest and direct action become the stick and "feel good" PR for the likes of the WTO when they announce tying free trade with, say, global environmental policy, becomes the carrot.

"I don't see any point slagging you off until we know just where you're coming from"

Look at the posts between your first and my first.

mango