to the person who uses the pen-name 'jihad':

You give analysis of the situation; but the fact that you call yourself "Jihad" - which means 'holy war' - does it not, is disturbing - i ask you to call yourself by something else - or i will argue for the removal of all your subsequent postings immediately as they appear from the Newswire. I ask you also to have the straightforwardness to leave an email contact - otherwise i cannot get round the fact that you are hiding: both yourself and motivations.

Richard
of IMC UK collective

Congratulations Richard! Hitler, Jihad makes you nut? But, what about this?

The present Israeli holocaust in Palestine was planned even before Israel was conceived or the alleged “holocaust” in Europe during the Second World War took place! The ethnic cleansing of Christians and Muslims in Palestine were also enshrined in Israeli Parliament, their Judiciary and Bureaucracy and every sphere of life long before the PLO's armed struggle to free their homeland.

The difference between the alleged holocaust in Europe and the present HOLOCAUST continuum in Palestine today is huge! The first “holocaust” in Europe was the product of one 'bad' man and a few of his collaborators (allegedly many of them were Jews, brought up as Catholics, Protestants, … similar to many people of today, for example Madeleine Albright brought up as a Christian but who found her Jewish heritage/Zionist linkage two days after becoming the US Secretary of State) during a difficult period in history. The second and present HOLOCAUST is the product of all Israeli lawmakers, their judiciary, bureaucracy and the rest of society in a carefully calculated manner. This has been allowed to go on for a long period of time with the promise by the Israelis of a never ending brutal and violent campaign that makes Hitler look like a mere boyscout! The irony is, Hitler is justifiably, condemned and hounded even today, 55 years after the event but the “Super Nazi” Israelis of today are rewarded by almost anyone and everyone without even asking a question.

Hitler's holocaust has been converted to a milking cow by the "holocaust traders", western print, TV and film media but the present Israeli created HOLOCAUST in Palestine is being presented by some sections of that same media as justifiable homicide!

Do not be part of the WAR CRIME, GENOCIDE and HOLOCAUST continuum in present day Palestine. Speak up, tell it as it is.

It is quite right to portray the current Israeli action against the Palestinian people as war crimes, and I am confident that they will be proven as such by history, if not sooner by international law. But talking about the best-documented historical war crime in human history as an "alleged" event does the Palestinian cause no service; rather, it plays into the hands of revisionists on the far right, which will undermine the cause of oppressed peoples the world over.

The Nazis did not brutally attack the Jews in order to retain control over land and political power. They herded them into ovens and gas chambers, they extracted the gold from their teeth, they performed medical experiments on children and pregnant women. This is all well documented, and beyond dispute by any objective historian.

To compare the present war crimes of the Israeli state to the Nazi Holocaust, or to similar genocides in Armenia, the Ukraine and elsewhere, is to relativise all war crimes. This will give real present-day Nazis in the west a strengthened platform and moral support, but most importantly it will bring the Palestinian people not one inch further to their goal. Rather, it will turn otherwise well-meaning people aside from supporting the Palestinians' urgent and most just cause.

Let us call the Israeli war crimes just that: war crimes. There is no need to deny the Holocaust in order to prove the guilt of the Israeli state.

Peace,

--
Jon

To Richard yes Jihad means Holy War, the term also has a cultural significance in Islamic tradition, as it is an Arabic name it could also be my first name as well, what right have you got to censor my articles just because I use the name Jihad, I made no slurs against Jews as it is not necessary, the facts already speak for themselves, need I remind you that it is your country which is responsible for the situation in the first place, back in the late forties

Richard, have you actually read the article?

Surely you aren't one of the site administrators.
You are a very narrow minded person for someone who works at a supposedly liberal site.

It's people like you who make the shortening of Richard "DICK".

Andrew wrote:-

Richard, have you actually read the article?

Yes. I classify it as anaylsis.

Surely you aren't one of the site administrators.

I am one of the IMC UK collective as i stated.

Jihad wrote:-
To Richard yes Jihad means Holy War, the term also has a cultural significance in Islamic tradition, as it is an Arabic name it could also be my first name as well, what right have you got to censor my articles just because I use the name Jihad"

Yes, the term also has an eytmological, historical, anthropological, psychological, and other "significances"; but none of that changes the fact that the term means 'holy war'. So what Jihad writes above does not actually address the issue at all: that he underwrites his article with the statement 'Holy war'. If i were to write an analysis on Ireland and were to 'sign' it "Anthropomorphic-deity-sanctioned-killing-of-Republicans", i think that it would be very disturbing. Jihad has done just that regarding the middle east.

Richard
of IMC UK collective

Believe me i am not that person who calls him self Jihad. I my self thought about writing to him about his name. Now i decided to write to you both.Jihad , if this is your real name then you should tell us also about your real last name because your name is misunderstood in the West.
Jihad does not mean holy war. Jihad is derived from theArabic word juhd,which means energy. The term can be translated as striving. The Western media manipulated this ward and translated it to holy war.so i do not blame you for misunderstang the intention of the so called jihad.When families chose to name their sons Jihad they are not necessarly thinking about war and blood. The prophet of islam is reported to have said controling one self is the begger jihad though he also said that fighting the agressive enemies is the smallest Jihad.. In the end i partly agree with your article and i understand your anger of Jihad. He may response later and i hope he tells us more about his real intention. thank you both.

This is addressed to Richard
First of all, I am not and have never had any connection with Jihad. (By the way, I'm sorry I haven't left an email - it's because I'm doing this from work & my email address on a public website could cost me my job).
I have read some of Jihad's postings on the Melbourne Indy site and have disagreed with the extent to which she/he blurs the distinction between Jews and Zionists etc. However I am shocked to hear that someone would want to censor her or him - especially just because of their alias.
Has it ever occurred to you that Jihad might be a Palestinian or at least Lebanese (there is a very large population of both here in Melbourne)?
The growth of Islamic fundamentalism and the associated influence of Islamic ideas in response to Imperialism and Zionist oppression is a tragedy. It was caused partly by the failure of the left (mostly Stalinist or Arab nationalist) in the middle east. It has to be fought. But that fight will never be won if we treat the victims of oppression with contempt. It certainly won't be won by silencing their voices.
I want to argue with Jihad. She/he is responding with energy and commitment to real oppression. 80% of what she/he says I agree with- which is more than can be said for some of the sectarian rantings on this site that you appear to be happy with.
If he went on about killing Jews or something equally offensive you might have a point. But he doesn't. Later a much more dodgy character posts a reply where he talks about the "alleged" holocaust. You didn't respond to that with a threat of censorship. Does that mean that holocaust denial is ok but calling yourself "Jihad" isn't?
I much prefer the response of the Melbourne Indymedia site which censors nothing. This led occaisonally (especially around S11) to a lot of offensive posts by right-wingers. These were dealt with at the time (not by censorship) and the right-wingers appear to have given up.
I suggest you worry less about controlling what happens on this site (with debate and news pidgeon holed in their proper places and politics you don't like discouraged) and more about encouraging debate.

Reply to all:

First of all Jihad is not my real name, I choose like many other people who access the Indymedia network not to divulge my real name, I have my reasons not the least of which is that I do not want my family to be harassed, there are not many people of Arabic origin in the part of melbourne in which I live

Secondly I am not Lebanese although I was born in Chatila Camps in Lebanon, I am a Palestinian youth, this is the only way I can assist the Intifada, by arguing the Palestinian case to a worldwide audience.

Thirdly I was mistaken that the exact meaning of Jihad is holy war, I listen to too much English language programming here in Australia

Finally if I used the words Alcohol or Algorithm is my pen name would they offend you Richard? They are English distortions of Arabic words, as is the case with Jihad, I will continue to use this name no matter what the consequences

First comment; Anyone calling for anyone else to be censored is not a friend of peace, truth and justice. (And jam)

Second comment, and regarding the title of this post; Although I don't know much of the general feeling towards Arafat from his people, I don't think he's 'missed the boat' at all. The way I see it (through my 5D glasses), I can't see there being ANY compromise before the UN Security Council declarations, 242 and some others I can't remember off the top of my head, are lived up to and perhaps even enforced with as much enthusiasm as UN resolutions against Iraq, with bogeyman number one who only seems to get stronger by the 'sanctions'. Only then can there be any discussion.

Third comment; How about bombing the Whitehouse and the Pentagon? (in self-defence)

The history of British colonialism in particular and European colonialism in general has taught generations of muslims to wage war against the so called fabricated word, THE WEST. You have a corrupt and corruupting civilization. Your church leaders are wealthy bussinessmen who lost all contacts with christianity. Your schools are a miss. Your civilization pulluted us physicaly and moraly.Before you discuss the meanig of Jihad discuss the meanig of your evil civilization. We muslims are not against the west per se we are against that evil you are breading, our jihad is against that evil. i call you to islam before it is too late. Humanity will live in peace and harmony under islam. look at the jews they are killing children and women.your civilization can not stop them because you are the first to teach the jews to do so. Islam will truimph, i do not say this because of faith alone,but also because i see the bigginng of the destruction of the so caleed fabricated ward THE WEST> you choose this ward for racist reasons , when you give your self a geographic identity you are saying no one can be like us because you country is not in the west, i thank allah i do not call my self western i thank allah i call my self muslim who loves and care about all people especialy the poor and the week in the kuran we learn that our prophet was sent as a mercy for all.Muslims are sleeping.Wake up and smell the blood.

I in no way understand the politics going on here for the middle east but I should like to understand more.

Jihad to me only ever meant holy war until I read this discussions and I am glad now.

You cannot accuse people for a name unless it is directly made up to hurt people like  torture_all_gay_people@national_front.com

Having been christened with a rather unfortunate name I shudder to think that I may be censored simply for this, rather than the content of what I say.

I agree with almost every point Ahmed has made, Islam is the most tolerant religion in the world, every colour, race and nationality in the human race is represented amongst our brotherhood, where I live I know Muslims from Singapore, Afghanistan, Turkey, Bosnia, Lebanon and many other countries, when the green flag of Islam flies over the Earth only then will it know peace

Asalamalaikoum to all in this thread.

That translates to peace be upon you. Jihad- you, and all of us, are responsible to one singular entity- Allah (arabic for god). If you choose this name then I also assume you to be muslim. Jihad, as was correctly described, can also be translated as a struggle, least of which is warfare. The effort to learn arabic so you can read the Koran in its native tongue is a jihad. A struggle for god (Allah in arabic). The struggle to complete your 5 prayers each and everyday is a jihad, a struggle. Any effort to become closer to god is a jihad. This frightens those who oppose Islam so they have stolen that word out of its context and have changed it make muslims feel ashamed to get closer to god. I understand why you selected this pen name but it only serves to reinforce the Western theft of this word for their biased slander of Islamic culture.

And no- you should not be censored, regardless of your views!

Jihad Alkhazin is one of the most famous Arab intellectual. He is the editor in chief of Alhayat, NO 2 newspaper in the Middle East.

I would just like to thank Richard for not threatening to ban me from the site for my name.

It has caused me some strife let me tell you - particularly in the playground at school and when applying for jobs!

Thanks again Richard for showing such an open mind toward people's names!

iContact posted the stand of the debate to the israel.imc on wed 10.01 and there's more comments there - click on the link.

as richard i am one of the imc-uk. as origin seems to be so important in this discussion i feel it appropriate to provide a bit of information: i have ethnically and religiously hopelessly emerged from the west as i am a german... the granduncle of my mother's side was convicted to death in the Nuremberg trials as he was a commander in the Einsatzgruppen and lived to the end of the war comfortably as a high-ranking officer in the gestapo headquarters... basically he was a mass-murderer. still he was pardoned in 1947 (the US wanted Germany to have an army as the new enemy was the USSR)... he died 'in peace' in 1987... my father's side's family comes from what is poland today and my grandfather always ranted against the 'polacks' and how they had ruined his fantastic Homeland. enough of the personal stuff? OK.

in the present situation in Israel and Palestine it is very difficult to debate, i acknowledge this. it is hard to avoid hard feelings and polemics. and i agree with jihad that the state of Israel follows an apartheid agenda, and Israel's strategic standing within Capitalism is reinforced by heavy lobby interests, and that 'the West' doesn 't give a shit about the culture of Islam. still i'd like to ask everybody involved to try to respect the other one... difficult, i know. but lives are at stake.

Islam is revolting. You should talk about violations of peoples rights.

Islam is the basis of an intolerant society. Look at the track record, women abused in every islamic country, their rights urinated on. Muslims can't even get along with each other - shiites and sunnis and alewas kill each other constantly. In Indonesia Muslims bomb churches for no reason and use recession as an excuse to rape the ethnically chinese.

I don't at all respect the Israeli government, but ever notice the governments around it? Do you even think for a moment that if Israel loosened its guard it wouldn't be obliterated? Be my guest - read more "leftist" propaganda, and ignore the many rapes and murders against the Jewish people in Palestine in the late 19th century, before the likes of the Stern Gang.

In Kashmir, India, the Muslims use terrorism against innnocents as well - to take over the state and unite it with Pakistan. After Kashmir, they'll want Uttar Pradesh... because their population grows, because Muslims aren't intelligent or compassionate enough, generally, to use birth control. They let their own children suffer in poverty, their own society stagnate, for power, for the theft of land.

Are you totally blind? Are you not aware of what will happen in Nigeria in a couple of weeks to a teenage girl because of "sharia" law, a barbaric Islamic instrument of oppression of women and the poor?

In the West they constantly whine about their rights - they want the right to polygamy - but yet in most Islamic country people of other faiths are systemically persecuted.

As for many races being represented in Islam, the same holds true for capitalism. That's a retarded argument.

In Chechnya the Muslim government was so stupid - it gained it's autonomy, but that wasn't enought, it had to send fighters to Dagestan, where they weren't even welcome by many, and the result, as well as the result of bomb attacks on civilians, was more deaths. Including Muslim deaths, but that doesn't matter, because many Muslims don't care about their children - they send them to die for their honor. Ever hear about honor killings of women in Jordan?

Islam is the religion of donkey-men. All organized religions are enemies of humanity. Those opposed to Western capitalism should also mark the Chinese and Islamic Government and Terrorist threats well.

Yaser Arafat is literly inside the Zionist prison. His freedom like thousends of Western journalists is denied (there are very few brave journalists,the rest like little Hitlers).When Martin Luther King was in Prison he was a free man, He wrote his message to every body and to every generation. Today his message is dead. People celebrate his day for fun and music and dance and empty hypocratic talks (there is some exeptions)
The civil rights movement in America today is in the hands of gays and lesbians, an insult to the legacy of all those who paid their lives for a warld of love and peace and kindness.American children particulary girls who grow fast speak secretly about their homosexual feelings,their minds are bieng targeted by those who have no fear of God Allah. Their minds were hit by scud Misseles.Future British mothers are in danger and some of the church people are fighting with some agents who claim to represent Islam.You are angry about muslims having more than one wife, when only about 2 percent of muslims worldwide have more than on wife and around 50 percent can not afford to get marry for one, and many muslims who do not fear god are fooling around with many women yet they are praised for their behavior for being moderates .the fight between muslims and christians over this issue helps those who are dividing us.
We all must work hard to rivive the American civil rights from where it ended,How? Lesbians and gays should be told to keep their snful life style away from children and the movement. Lesbianism and gayism are an Ism, that is ideology. It is not enough to praise Martin one has to build on his ideas The struggle of Palistinians to acquire their rights is the same struggle of Blacks to acquire their rihts.Blacks can revive energize and spread their movement if they keep their eyes on the violations of dignity in Palistine. Good muslims and jews will help the blacks. The enemy has made divisions between muslims and christians and Blacks and whites and good jews and good nonjews. The circle of racism and the exchange of hatred is in the control of writers like this renan who is angry about dialouge. He comes in and say bad wards to spread evil. The solution is God not socialism,Blaks must free Palistinians if they want to free them selves,We must learn why God wants his peoples and tribes to know each other.The homosexuals care only about their sin they have nothing to do with God Message. They control the American civil rights movements, that is why the movement is not supported by good christians, those christians are not racists they love blicks,the behind the scene leaders of the civil rights movement are controling this cycle of racism between blacks and whites.only god will break it.