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Bristol RESOLUTION 2 STW Conference...

input | 30.03.2004 00:09

In amongst all the motions to the STW Conference on 28th Feb 2004, is a tidy little motion from Bristol STW.

"This conference recognises the achievements of the Stop the War Coalition in involving people across the political spectrum and re-affirms the political non-alignment of the Coalition."

This is something very useful to hold them to account with. An a very useful stick to hit them with if they try using our shared networks to shamelessy promote any group or party above another.

I figure everyone should spread this motion around, and feel free to excercise it...

check out the other motions here:

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/article.asp?id=280204
here's the new steering committee:

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/about.asp#steer

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Hide the following 29 comments

Thanks Bristol STW

30.03.2004 00:30

...almost forget to say thank you, this looks very very useful.

input

quoi?

30.03.2004 09:36

Has the Stop the War Coalition done anything to promote any political party? Not that I'm aware. Stop the War activists include supporters of all parties and none.

Stop the War Coalition:

http://www.stopwar.org.uk

kurious

BSTW resolution

30.03.2004 10:05

Over the last couple of months there has been a concerted effort in the STW movement by the Respect Unity Coalition (RUC?!) to gain support from activists and get them to join.

As a previous comment has already mentioned the STW coalition is made up by people across the political landscape. What is clear is that the RUC is the latest membership catching vehicle of the Socialist Workers Party (SWP). And there opportunism stinnks. As one of the SWP activists said at a meeting at the outbreak of war "this is a good opportunity to get new members". Whether serious or not this is wholly inappropriate and I would urge anybody to think again before joining a party whose sole aim seems to be to tech Blair a lesson. Durig the latest anti-war march on March 20th they handed out placards and leaflets stating Iraq's on fire - again I don't think this is helpful and they do not seem to have any policies or altenatives.

aaa

Stop the War remains non-partisan

30.03.2004 11:37

Parties and groups from the Greens to the Anarchist Federation to the Labour Campaign Group to the Revolutionary Bolshevik Whatnots (and even at times the Lib Dems!) have all turned up at Stop the War events with their own campaign material and I'm sure they've all recruited new members as a result.

But the Stop the War Coalition has never backed or endorsed any party, and as I say continues to include activists of all parties and none.

Stop the War Coalition:

http://www.stopwar.org.uk

kurious

FAO Curious

30.03.2004 12:23

"But the Stop the War Coalition has never backed or endorsed any party"

For several weeks the London STW website shamelessly promoted the Respect Convention on 25th of January on it's front page as if it were STW policy.

STW *have* openly backed the RUC on *our* STW networks. They have provided the RUC with extended front-page coverage when a vast multitude of committed groups within STW have been denied the all-important front-page spot.

Shame on you!

input

PLEASE See BRISTOL INDYMEDIA For RELATED DEBATE On The RUC

30.03.2004 12:46

The comment 'It's F**cking Awful' is a good summing up of the mess so far.

http://bristol.indymedia.org/newswire/display/14329/index.php

input

sorry about the capital letters

30.03.2004 13:02

sorry, i didn't think those block capitals would look so intense.

input

expose the liars

30.03.2004 14:50

"But the Stop the War Coalition has never backed or endorsed any party"

You lot in London are such abusers. We all know that the SWP, London STW, and RESPECT, and so on. use the same printing press! You act as if we are so stupid and won't notice!

At the London Demo on 20th March you bastards flooded the Demo with RESPECT banners straight off the SWP printing press. You total bastards!

You are causing so much damage to the coalition!

Also FAO Curious

also

30.03.2004 15:07

Originally the STW coalition called for a number of protests to mark the anniversary of the outbreak of war across the country. After a week or two the coalition changes its mind and called the national demo in London. Respect had a large presence at this demo with its "Bliar Bliar Iraq's on fire" sloganeering. I beleive it was Respect and the SWP who wanted the STW coalition to change its mind regarding the demos. Many of us had spent lots of time, effort and money organising protests and getting leaflets printed only to be gazumped by the national coalition.

Many people including myself had issues with both the change in direction regarding the demonstration and especially the innappropriate slogans that were used. It would be good to remember that 1000's of innocent Iraqi people have been killed and 1000's more have had there lives ruined. These are real people and they are not to be used as a propaganda tool for swelling membership numbers and selling newspapers.

tekno anarchist

Check Out The Bristol Version Of This Thread Too...

30.03.2004 15:42

More Comment On The Bristol Resolution Here:

http://bristol.indymedia.org/newswire/display/14361/index.php

input

Can we have debate not abuse please

30.03.2004 17:05

The ranting and abuse that passes for debate on some threads of Indymedia is frankly ridiculous.

Calling people who attended the March 20th demo "bastards" because you disagree with some of what they say is out of order.

Some points about STWC and the 20th March protest. Firstly as far as I am aware STWC has not promoted any particular political party - there's nothing on the website that indicates otherwise and I think most STWC groups have done likewise. When we had a successful recent STW public meeting of 500 here in Exeter the platform speakers (George Galloway and Ghada Razuki) steered away from saying anything party political.

Some contributors to this thread seem to object to party political placards on anti war demos - at the 20 March protest I saw SWP, Respect, Socialist Party and Green Party placards - are you saying these should have been banned? Should marchers on the demo not be able to carry the placards they want? Maybe we could ban paper sellers and leafletters at the same time.

My other point is about whether it was right to call the national demo or not. In hindsight I think it is fairly obvious that the March 20th protest was a success - tens of thousands protested and our message got wide coverage in not just the British media but also internationally. Those who argued for alternative local protests did not get big turnouts - I believe it was 200 in Bristol, and little coverage.

I look forward to the abusive replies...

pissed off

Disengenous Twisting

30.03.2004 17:25

Hello Pissed Off,

Thanks but no thanks for all the disengenous twisting.

1) "Firstly as far as I am aware STWC has not promoted any particular political party."

As has been clearly stated in this thread, London (National) STW did promote RESPECT for a number of weeks on it's frontpage in a manner which made it look like a STW policy. It was this naked and clear abuse which initially prompted Bristol STW to put foward it's motion to conference. So, either you have simply not read this thread, or you are engaging in disengeneous twisting.

2) "Some contributors to this thread seem to object to party political placards on anti war demos"

This is more disengenuous twisting. What has in fact been said is that the demo on 20th March was flooded with 'Respect' placards. I wasn't there myself, but I have heard similar complaints from a numberr of people. And yes, we all know that 'Respect', 'SWP' use the same printing press, and that they have a policy of flooding demos in an entirely disproportionate manner. And no, it's not a matter of debate, a someone else has said, we are not stupid, it is painfully obvious, so please don't offend me/us further.,

3) "tens of thousands protested and our message got wide coverage in not just the British media but also internationally. Those who argued for alternative local protests did not get big turnouts"

This is yet more disengenous twisting. Numbers were down eveywhere. The demos in London were a twentienth of their size compared to last year. The demo in Bristol was also a twentienth of it's size of last year, so you are simly being manipulative, dishonest and rude to present these local demos as being less succesful than the National Demo.

4) I am so tired of all this disengenous manipulation of facts and figures. Please do stop insulting our intellingence, and atetyempting to undermine and deflect from what are very serious concerns with what, to be quite frank, is a very pithy and deeply offensive presentation of these concerns as ranting merely because the word 'bastard' was used.

HAVE SOME RESPECT!

James Venables
Bristol-Stop-The-War

james venables

Disengenous = Disingenuous: Meaning Dishonest, Having Secret Motives, Insincere

30.03.2004 18:46

Just spell-checking for you wordsmiths out there who like to deflect from the issues at hand with dictionary speak, references to swear-words, denials of what we know to be true, etc. ;o) Why not just own up and to all the crass manipulation and we can start a clean slate :o)

james

Whoa James!

30.03.2004 19:31

Whoa James! You've made your point very powerfully! You're like a rottweiller with a tactically upgraded brain transplant mate! Good stuff, but let's not get personal, even though the level of abuse and manipulation is as extreme and damaging as people have said.

Thank FCUK for Bristol STW is all I have to add! If it wasn't for the likes of them, and others, STW would have been reduced to a hijacked and distrusted rump a long time ago, as it stands their resolution holds out hope for it's survival as a genuine coalition.

dog on a rope

stwc is doing its job

30.03.2004 21:25

i recall that the protesters had a choice of which placard to hold up. nobody forced anyone to hold up a respect, MAB, homemade placard up. the fact that many people on the demo had respect placards probably shows that it was a popalur placard.

the frustration of not stopping the war means that we have to look to other expressions i.e elections and dissing voting for the pro-war party labour.

the demo continues to have a lot of non alinged people eg chris eubanks which is a positive thing. stop moaning ,millions of people see the need for an alternative . respect is taping into a deep vein. if u dont like it fine , but please do not be so child like and understand where people are coming from.

ps the swp print shop is the cheapest around and is dedicated towards the cause,therefore no delays, no fuck ups. it al;so prints private eye and workers power,morning star

red letter

Utter Bullies

30.03.2004 23:16

It's always the same, serious criticisms and concerns are always derided as 'moaning'. This is just cheap and bullying, and a filthy party political tactic. As a number of people have said, stop insulting our intelligence.

As for banners, the truth is that people often don't realise what they are holding, while the more seasoned activists will rip off the strip saying SWP so as to still have a placard, if they feel like it. Again, we know this! so stop insulting our intelligence.

Won't Be Bullied

swp fronts

30.03.2004 23:27

yeah, but we all know that private eye, workers power and morning star are swp fronts.

jon boy

BEWARE OF SIDE ALLEYS

31.03.2004 00:06

The main issue here is that a Resolution has been passed holding the Steering Committee, and the STWC, to account, and that is the main thing to be thinking about. From experience I would suggest it is preferable to those who feel uncomfortable with the implications of this, to instead take this discussion down the side alley of a dispute of the psychology of why a protestor will or will not pick up a party political placard, or the grossly patronising side alley of saying people are 'moaning', or being 'childsish, or 'you shouldn't swear', or 'we didn't do it' and so on.

If you want to define this, Red Letter, by calling people 'childish, then you are not ready for an adult discussion about how we define a complex coalition, and how we co-exist on our networks, whether they are a email networks or demonstrations. If, Red Letter, you want to avoid a discussion about whether it is acceptable to flood a demo with placards, or to use the website mainpage to promote 'Respect', or any other concern about how we co-exist as a coalition, then, once you have done your slagging off of everyone as childish, the rest of us can see how you have avoided the issues.

Are you prepared to discuss these issues? if you aren't then why are you in a coalition?

james

that is the point

31.03.2004 09:30

As an active environmental campaigner I take exception to he amount of wasted paper by all of the parties that produce 1000s of these placards. How are these placards printed? On recycled paper using sustainable wood sources for the sticks and inks and chemical that are at least bio-degradable etc? No I think not, they are probably made from the cheapest and thus the most environmentally damaging materials (although I'd be happy to corrected on this).

On a different level, why are these placards produced? for one reason to gain as much media coverage as possible.

Yes, Respect was given a prominent place on the STW front page. Is it any coincidence that Lindsey German is now the Respect London mayoral candidate? I think not.

I think Bristol STW and the other coalition members should be applauded for getting the resolutuion passed and anybody trying to divide the debate by moaning about swearing etc are not missing the point but deliberately trying to derail the discussion.

The respect web-page headlines its campaign to raise half a million quid and attract 10,000 new members - I suspect they hope to get most of these from anti-war movement.

DON'T CONTRIBUTE TO THE PROBLEM - BE PART OF THE RESISTANCE

tekno anarchist

Bristol STW Is Doing It's Job

31.03.2004 16:08

'Red Letter' said "stwc is doing its job".

Wrong!

Bristol STW is doing it's job, the Steering Committee have been abusing their position.

The STWC has decided that:

"This conference recognises the achievements of the Stop the War Coalition in involving people across the political spectrum and re-affirms the political non-alignment of the Coalition."

Anyone who has a problem with that should leave the coalition. Including those in the London Office who have been abusing and excluding people since day one. Also, their communications are painfully poor and inconsistent. That the National email network is used only to send out very sloppy and intermittment emails, instead of a choerent newsletter, beggars belief.

input

insulting intelligence!!

31.03.2004 16:38

i agree with the motion that stwc should not be promoting any party but
james, show me the proof that the offical stwc website has ever promoted respect as claimed. i maybe wrong on this one, but if people are going to make allegations then we need proof.

won't be bullied, now your the one insulting peoples intelligence by suggesting that demostrators will pick up any old placard . what if the placard said"hooray for bush and blair"with the SUN on top, would people carry that one around?. give people a bit more credit and stop patronising.

red letter

insulting intelligence!

31.03.2004 17:01

lets make it clear. i support the motion , stwc should not promote any party. put if people are making allegations that the offical website promoted respect party i would like some proof of this.i maybe wrong but i verry much doubt it did.

won't be bullied. your claim that protesters will pick up any old placard without thinking about it is plain rubbish. try and think about it, a protester makes the effort , travels 100's of miles to get to the demo which is going against all the bullshit propaganda and then justs picks up any placard without reading or agreeing with it? give people a bit more credit. what if the placard had "hooray for bush&blair" with the SUN at the top, are u saying people would carry this along with them. if anyone is insulting peoples intelligence its u.

red letter

STW and Respect

31.03.2004 20:30

I also saw respect being promoted on the STW coalition web site. I don't know how to provide proof as I didn't save the web-page.

But I know what I saw and if you don't beleive that's your problem

tekno anarchist

More Disingenuos Twisting?

31.03.2004 21:08

Hello Red Letter,

As has been said, the Bristol Resolution was prompted by the extended publicity given to Respect as if it were STW policy. I really have no time for your distraction of asking for proof of this, as the Resolution is solid in its own right.

"what if the placard had "hooray for bush&blair" with the SUN at the top"

This isn't an argument Red Letter, but it is a ridiculous hypothetical. People will go to a demonstration expecting to pick up a anti-war placard. They don't necessarilu realise they are partaking in a mass party political advert for the T.V screens. That is why demos are flooded. It is a very manipulative thing to do.

As you clearly don't have a problem with maniplulative flooding of coalition demos with placards, then no, Red Letter, you *do not* support the Bristol Resolution in my opinion.

james

I Saw It Too!

31.03.2004 22:12

I saw the R.E.S.P.E.C.T being promoted like it was the S.T.W.C too. 10 of thousands will have done, or more. Outrageous! As for demos, there's a huge turnover everytime I imagine, and new people take it on trust all to often. I did! My first ever demo I was carrying around an SWP placard for ages before I realised! Silly me maybe, but that's what I reckon you people play on for sure. 20th March was a Disgrace.

STWC should uphold the Resolution.

Groups like RESPECT should respect the Resolution on Demonstrations!

flip the disc

Interesting debate

01.04.2004 08:54

I think the Bristol motion was necessary because a lot of people have these concerns. One of the big problems that we have in the British left (and I use that term just because I cannot think of a better one - I don't mean to exclude anyone just becasue they don't want to be categorised) is the culture promoted by the SWP that voices that are different are somhow "unhelpful" or "divisive".

Just a correction on one of the points made, Workers Power are clearly not an SWP front. They may be no better and no worse than the SWP, but the origin of that group is people who were expelled from the IS (forerunner of the SWP) years ago in a very acrimonius divorce. MOrning Star are also not an SWP front, and I believe have recently changed their publisher - for commercial reasons.

We have to recognise that people on all sides of the debate are motiovated often by the best of intentions, otherwise it is just recreating the same problem of exclusivity in reverse.

On the issue of placcards, this is a peculiarly British thing. A culture has grown up of organisations seeking to "hegemonise" through force of numbers. So if they are the most visible organisation, then they must be the best. yeah right. This is so ingrained that I don't think we are going to stop it just by moaning about it.

I think there are two practical steps we can take that might help. We did both of these in Swindon for the 15th Feb demo last year, unfortunately we haven't done them since but we need to.
i) encourage local organisations to produce their own mass-produced placards. So Swindon Socialist Alliance produced placards that were still "mass produced" but at least the input was from local people that everyone knew. the more diversity the better.
ii) hold a placard/banner making workshop. This went really well, and allowed a lot of people to bounce creative and political ideas off each other, and it meant we had a lot more personal and individual placards, and meant that people were not daunted by the task. (I am not being patronising, once you have made a placard you know it is easy, but a lot of us have our creativity drummed out of us by school/work and it needs a bit of nurturing!)

If more local groups try these things then we may begin to change the culture. BTW I actually think it is helpful that political organisation produce placards, but it is a question of getting the balance right, and reflecting the genuine divsity on the protests.

Andy Newman
mail e-mail: Swindon@stopwar.org.uk
Homepage: http://freespace.virgin.net/swindon.stopwar/index.htm

look back at arcive footage of demos

01.04.2004 11:55

James, i recently saw a film made by ken loach about the striking miners 84-85. on the demos there were all types of placards, home made and swp ones too(victory to the miners).

what was interesting was that the "socialist worker" at the top were nine out of ten times ripped off from the top of the placard. obviosly the people liked the slogan but not SW on the top.

also i remember this happened alot on the anti criminal justice demos 90s (kill the Bill).

does anybody remember this?

so i am sorry but you are wrong to suggest that people do not take much notice, evidently they do. 1 more thing, i much prefer home made placards, they make the demos more interesting and reflects the mood of the demo.

so there

red letter

life found beyond Watford Gap

01.04.2004 15:21

As a citizen of Yorkshire I object strongly to the assumption I live in London! ;-)

kurious

can some one from STW coalition conifrm this?

01.04.2004 16:18

Can somebody fromt he STW coalition please confirm or refute that there was prominence given to the Respect Unity coalition on the national web-site?

yeah I like the home-made banners and signs best - I wish SWP Respect, Green and all the others didn't flood the demo with the placards.

tekno anarchist

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