down with the british state!
up with the scottish state!

state?

ahem....

...here's to NOBORDERS!!

INDYMEDIA REFUSES TO BE DIVIDED BY TROLLS ESPECIALLY AT THIS TIME

ok we might have some arguments, but hey, that's life, get over it.

STOP TROLLING SHIT AFTER THE SERVERS WERE SEIZED, THE ESF IS ON, AND THE G8 IS COMING...

Solidarity across borders :-)

I don't know. I don't think he put it very well, but knowing the author of the original article, I don't think he was trolling. I also think its a bit of a straw man to suggest that someone in favour of Scottish independence is in favour of a Scottish state.

I do think there is a point to be had. The sensitivity of this issue should be appreciated and not dismissed.

The right to self determination and the rejection of an occupying power is something usually supported on these pages (Zapatistas, Palestinians, Bougainvillians etc) so why is this different?

Hello People,
I know what you are going to say (well some of you, maybe), 'nationalism' causes wars. I beg to differ. This myth is promoted by the usual corporate brainwashing-propaganda spinners of adult fairytales. Western Imperialim causes wars. Fascism is not nationalism. 'Britian' is a figment of the Oxbridge-London BBC subsidised imagination.

Did Scottish, Welsh, English or Irish nationalism cause the invasion of Iraq, the British Empire, World War I and II? World War I is beautiful case in point, as the European Royal family waged and internecine civil war against itself , using the cheerfully blind and brainwashed, obedient young males of Europe, led by their old aristocratic males.

Is the Palestinian Resistance Movement a good or a bad thing? And what about their violent racist oppressors, Pentagon-Israel? Which stands for freedom and justice and which one is violent and evil (I make no comment about the peoples of the US or Israel, we must always distinguish between government actions from that of their people)?
Nationalism is in direct opposition to phoney structures such as the British state. Likewise, Palestine is a nuisance to the Pentagon's Empire.

I re-worded parts of that great poem (paeon !) to National Resistance and Liberation, against the evils of imperialism.
Rabbie Burns 'Scots Wha Hae', to suit the situation today as is faced by our sisters and brothers who are facing genocide at the hands of the US, and its pipsqueak racist client, Israel. Please have a read
 http://groups.msn.com/RafahReports/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=612&LastModified=4675493367510934315
The actual website is here  http://www.rafahtoday.org/news/todaymain.htm
and is maintained by a Palestinian journalist with not much resources  http://www.rafahtoday.org/news/todaymain.htm

Also about Rafah, in the Gaza Strip is  http://www.rafahpundits.com/

What do you think?

if only...
us "anarchist communists" would take their paranoid focus off Israel/Palestine and look at other conflicts on this planet, that would be so enligthening and would put things into proportion.
also, if only nationlisms could be overcome and would no longer occupy otherwise bright minds.
and, if only robert burn's poems could be left in their original language - or did the poor bugger have to publish in english so that he could sell a book or two? - so that nobody would have to go through the pain to read them.

Solidarity with Israel.
Never allow what is the current Palestinian leadership to gain any power.
Think about what those "arabic brothers" and comrade Arafat have done to "the Palestinians" over the past 50 years, think about Israel's position in a region dominated by very very unpleasant regimes, and stop justifying "suicide attacks" as actions of a "liberation movements".
hartwig

Dear Eariwig,
keep your racist jibes to yourself.

Yes, its ok for the Pentagon-funded 'state' of Israel to be a nation, but somehow, the Palestinians are not to be allowed theirs. And who is not allowing them their nation-statehood, why, their violent racist illegal occupiers Pentagon-Israel.
As for not negotiating with representatives of the Palestinian people, why not? You are not trying to tell me that illegal, racist, violent occupiers of a people get to choose with whom they are going to negotiate with, are you? Do violent aggressors such as Hitler or Sharon get to decide what is going to be negotiated as well? Imagine that, Hitler or Apartheid South Africa or Apartheid Israel get to decide the fate of their victims, in 'negotiations' aimed at 'peace'. If we remember our history properly, we will recall that even Hitler wanted peace. Every new atrocity he committed was followed by the plea that all he was wanting peace.

These human monsters, in the Pentagon-Israel, also get to decide who they will negotiate with. As we can see, Israel assassinates or kidnaps and illegaly puts in jail, recognised leaders of the Palestinian people, so they can there is no-one to negotiate with. Racist smear campaign against Yasser Arafat can also be used to prevent any meaningful dialogue with this representative, as his assassination, would be too politically costly for the evil government of Israel.

Its interesting that you give Palestinian victims of western racist imperialism the blame for their own oppression. A nice Orwellian touch.

If the native Palestinian Resistence Movement were as lavishly subsidised by the US taxpayer as the racist butchers of the Israeli establishment, then I'm sure the Palestinian's would be using battlefield weaponry the same as the morally repulsive Israeli Defence Forces. Since when do those responsible for the ongoing Genocide of Palestine get to decide the how its victims should behave, or the ways in which the resist their genocide?

Its funny when it comes to the Pentagon Military State and its clients. According to the western corporate media these imperialist clients never commit terrorist acts. Just in the past week, the IDF (and their 'purity of arms') deployed their free-of-charge Pentagon battlefield weapon systems against the defenceless Palestinian population locked up in the Israeli-Pentagon Gulag, known to the outside world as the Gaza Strip.

To pretend Israel is surrounded by 'unpleasant regimes' (US clients such as Egypt, Turkey, The House of Fraud, 'liberated Kuwait') is a nonsense. Due to its sumptuous subsidies from US Taxpayers, Israel is the supreme militarily power in West Asia. What you really mean Periwig, like the good fascist you are, is Israel's neighbours are racially unpleasant.

Your racist comments are a perfect example of my first comments on this thread. Nationalism is freedom; Imperialism, as expressed via the US and its client states, is oppression and racist.

'Bought and sold for Pentagon gold, Such a parcel of rogues in a nation'!

Yours Joe 90

I hate these discussions happening on the internet, because the actual complexity of the issue as I see it is difficult to convey in the limited amount of time and using only words.

This is a very emotional issue for me. As a Jew, I am well aware of the history of Judeophobia throughout Europe - which has been going on for hundreds of years - my own ancestors came to Wales to escape pogroms in Russia 100 years ago. I have cousins that fought for Israel after the Second World War.

I have visited in Israel and the ways it felt special are not only deeply personal but beyond my ability with words to express. Please just accept my assurance that to me, Jerusalem, Masada, even ugly, modern Tel Aviv touched my soul (yes, even Anarchists have souls ;) ) in ways that no cathedral, no mosque, no pagan ceremony ever have. Being near the Western (Wailing) Wall disables me in tears.

And beyond the spiritual aspect, there is another, equally hard to describe feeling. Like other peoples, Jews in Europe have a folk memory. Of course no two Jews have the same ideas or experience. But I would say it is reasonably common to feel fear and shame because of the Nazi genocide, and some degree of relief and connection to Israel as a place we can turn to if things get Bad again.

As an Anarchist I believe everyone has the right to self determination and autonomy, as far as that does not harm another. I believe in a society, in federation of communities, based on autonomy, empathy, voluntary cooperation, solidarity and mutual aid.

This includes those who, like me, choose to include "Jewish" in their definition of themselves.

But what of the Palestinians?

As well as visiting Israel for family, cultural and spritual reasons, I have also spent 4 months (until I was arrested and deported by the *Israeli* state forces) as a human rights observer and activist in Palestine. There is absolutely no doubt that the IDF and other Israeli state machinery, as well as Jewish and opportunist (including some Russian mafiosa who can buy "Jewish identity" on the black market) settlers, behave in ways not only morally reprehensible, but also illegal under international _and Jewish_ law.

Sunset has arrived, and I am away to perform the ritual of welcoming in the sabbath that my maternal ancestors have performed for perhaps thousands of years. I'll write more anon.

shalom, peace, salaam

'But what of the Palestinians?'-
- of which you proceed to say eff all. Sunset has arrived , my maternal one, as you make your way to be with the Murdoch One, sorry, the Penta-Gon.
As the Anti-Christ, sorry, anarchist, what has all your rubbish got to do with anyone?
Judeo -what?

Israel is an evil parasitic fascist state and has nothing whatsoever to do with Jewish people, as any decent Jewish person will tell you. To associate any Jewish person with the Evil Empire, is just a totalitarian smear campaign to give Jewish folk the blame, now that the Empire has backfired.
Apart from that, you are talking made-up shite, ya evil fascist scum bag.

Phoney Tony - Latest Update
MISSSION CREEP
Number of Yanqui Terrorist in Iraq - phenomenal
Number of Scots - total pittance
Never forget, the British Empire will always fight to the last Scot.
God love the Scottish Mothers and Fathers of our dead.

To Joe, I would say, that although it is true that it currently suits the imperial and religious aims of those currently in the White House (Bush, as a Born Again Christian supports Israel as he believes, along with 15 - 20% of the USA electorate, that a Jewish state of Israel is necessary for the return of Jesus) to support Israel, that is not the only element. To simplify it to that level is not helpful in the slightest.

But it is patronising to avoid critisism of Israel because we Jews have suffered. The critisism should be appropriate. Not out of proportion such as that that can be heard, though is not all, within some Judeophobic ranks, where you do hear ignorant, paranoid references. But also not to deny what is actually going on.

During the Second World War people begged in vain for the RAF to bomb the train lines to Aushwitz. To slow down the genocide. Ships of Jewish refugees found no asylum. Is it surprising Jews defend Israel? Feel that we must be strong and powerful because we have no allies? This recent support of Christians should be seen in the context of a thousand years of considering Jews as Christ murderers. Most of my Israeli cousins were born there. There are Israelis still living whose previous home was in the nazi concentration camps.

This is a reality, if an inconvenient one, when we see the suffering of the Palestinian people who have been forced from their homes, murdered, and the 3 million or so who still live in squalid refugee camps in Lebannon, Jordan and Syria, denied any rights, for over 50 years. Many of these (the majority?) still identify with, have deep emotional connections to the specific land that they were forcibly removed from. I have a Palestinian friend who was brought up in a refugee camp in Lebannon. She witnessed attrocities of Israeli solidiers, under Sharons command. After hearing her stories, of what life is like for these refugees, to see a painting she has of her grandfather's farm near Haifa, my heart cries out for her to be given her right to return.

This was the same instinct that partially informed Jews being given Israel in 48.

A friend of mine from Australia recently told me about the problems they have with "invader species", eg the cane toad, which was introduced to please sugar farmers in 1935 to eat the cane sugar eating beatles, which it never did in great numbers, but their introduction by humans has reeked havoc with the native flora and fauna. It's not a particularly flattering comparison on either side - my point is only that easy answers rarely improve, and often make a whole lot worse the situation. This can be seen with the original creation of the state of Israel on top of Palestine. It might have salved some European and North American politicians consciences, but it created a new problem. I believe that any solution that does not take into account the actual situation as it is now, including how those concerned feel about past injustice, will be temporary at best.

I don't know what the answer is. I know that Israel as a state can and should stop making the situation worse by continuing the occupation of Palestine and its slow genocide of the Palestinian people. I believe that this is also a bad situation for Jews living in Israel, as it prevents peace.

I don't believe in a one state or a two state solution - I believe that all states are oppressive and a large part of the problem. I don't believe that anybody will find justice (although there might be applicable, concepts of "more" or "less" justice) until we have a global no state solution.

Dear Malice,
so what? What has all your rubbish got to do with a Scottish Indy Site? Perhaps when the moon is full and you feel the call of mother earth etc etc...ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

The evil state state of Israel is subsidised by the evil Pentagon. Without this subsidy from the US taxpayer Apartheid Israeli would have to make peace with the neighbours it keeps murdering.

There is nothing complex about the Genocide of Palestine. Withdraw the welfare handouts to the morally and finacially corrupt Israeli state and there is peace. Unfortunately, that doesn't make any money for Daddy Warbucks at the Pentagon war machine, and doesn't do anything for the Pentagon-Petroleum phoney regimes of West Asia.

Yours joe 90

PS Could you give the references to the 'people that begged in vain' for trains to Auschwitz to be bombed. This is disgusting. To use one of the most single terrible events in recent human history, in your rubbish argument. This never happened to these millions of human beings. You are sick.

Nick Drurie has his own thoughts, which aren't piggy-backed by indymedia UK. This is only right and proper as befits the Scottish nation. However for some reason Nick Drurie does not see the need to end the confusion and befuddlement that has been caused by not simply rerouting visitors from nationalism to anarchism. It is certainly a better solution for Nick Drurie to have his own indymedia server.

The point about Nick Drurie is that he is supposed to be a decentralized anarchist. What we have in Scotland however is a situation where Nick Drurie is showing an alarming trend towards centralization, not wanting to move away from the paradigm for the state.

I have heard specious arguments citing problems with 'anarchism' associated with moving towards a stateless world. These are risible, especially given that they are used to actually support a ‘statist’ argument (support for the nation-state in the form of reification)!

In fact it's frankly chauvinism of the worst kind.

Moreover the concept of anarchism is a completely different concept from that of Nick Drurie’s nationalism (that's to say what is being exhibited by some in regards to this issue); it is not on a par with the chauvinism of demanding autonomy for Scotland as an independent nation, it's not even close; it is an anti-royalist, anti-oppression, anti-colonialist, anti-authoritarian, anti-nationalist and anti-statist stance.

It's a very damning indictment of Nick Drurie's supposedly left credentials that he is so concerned about stamping out British nationalism, he reifies the relations of the nation-state, and there through his actions seems to purport to support nation-state colonial relations.

I call upon everyone who uses this site to block Nick Drurie if he does not cease to uphold this vile, stinking state-clone identity. Only when the movement embraces decentralization will it make progress.

Down with all states!
Autonomy for all peoples!
Anarchist Communism!

This is a very clear part of Jewish folk memory. Something that informs a lot of our emotional response. Here are some examples.

"And the rabbis were pleading, 'Please bomb the railroad lines to the camps!'"
 http://www.aish.com/holocaust/overview/The_Allied_Effort.asp


"Whether a bombing mission to the extermination camp would have succeeded or failed is an open question. However, it is clear that the Allies did not marshal the same energy and determination to rescue the Jews as the Nazis did to murder them."
 http://www.yadvashem.org/about_holocaust/faqs/answers/faq_29.html


"Jewish leaders wanted to have
the Allied powers bomb Auschwitz at one time. This never did happen
though."
 http://www.cyberessays.com/History/125.htm


"Hundreds of thousands of innocent Jews could have been saved had the Allies agreed to bomb the death camps or the rail lines which were feeding them."
 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/worldres.html


One of the pleas:
 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/auplea.html


The people who deny these calls happened:
 http://www.air-photo.com/english/reasons.html


Joe: I spent 4 months as a human rights activist in occupied Palestine. I held the heads of two of my dying friends, killed by the Israeli army. I have risked rejection by my community for standing up for what I believe in.

I do not appreciate your racist, ignorant, lazy jibes. For you it might be amusing to type into a computer, thinking it exciting how easily you can upset anonymous people who actually care about other people. It is safe - you don't have to face up to the consequences of your actions. Maybe you've had a shit day at work, or you have seen some trauma that makes you hate Jewish people, or perhaps it is broader than that and you are actually sociopathic.

None of my Palestinian friends, no one I met in Palestine would have been so cruel. They have a dignity perhaps born of some need for strength and integrity that you, safe in a Western "democracy" have yet to develop.

You bring damage to the Palestinian cause with your careless brutishness.

First of all Alice,
I am not lazy, ignorant or racist. Well, sorry, thats three points, but who cares about factual content. You certainlty don't as you are only to keen to point me towards propaganda. Try putting things into your own words, as you did in your first attempt, when you made an arse of yourself.

'Jewish folk memory', give me a break. Totalitarian racist tosh. So Jewish people are all the same are they, apart from different individual experiences? This can only make sense to someone without any.

The situation in Palestine is not complicated and does not need to wait for some pie-in -the-sky world state without national borders. US taxpayers just need to stop subsidising Israeli international terrorism and a bloodthirsty illegal racist occupation. Withdraw the US government welfare handouts and Israel has to make peace with the neighbours it keeps attacking.

I fail to see what being anonymous has to do with my particular activity on the internet. That is the nature of it. So what is your point ? You are as anonymous as I am. So what ? If you are easily upset then why do you hang around sites where there are people to expose your rubbish for what it - is support for Israeli Government Racist International Terrosism (ie Imperialism) ? I am sorry if the truth upsets you, but it uspets me as well. It doesn't upset me that some people try to deny it. You get used to the western corporate propaganda system, and its parrotting stooges, after a while.

Unless I have got off on the wrong foot with you, but this discussion is about Imperialist states like Apartheid Israel and the British stae versus real nationalism like Scots and Palestinian.
If you are going to reply would you mind sticking to the point, and don't send anything to my own email address. This is the proper forum such discussion.

Yours Joe 90

PS Sorry I'm not an adoring fan of the US or its violent racist client Isael, but this has nothing to do with my views, or otherwise about Jewish people. If you think it is then it is you who are the racist totalitarian.
What do you think of the most recent mass murders of defencelss Palestinians in the Gaza Concentration Camp, for example. Or is that situation too complicated to comment on?
I have just been reading over your comments, and can't seem to fathom what exactly the point is, you are trying to make. Could you re-iterate it simply and clearly and what its has got to do with Scotland. Otherwise, I think we are talking at cross-purposes. In which case my apologies for any inconvenience caused.

Joe, you started talking about Palestine. I briefly mentioned it in passing, together with Zapatistas et al as examples of struggles for self determination that I imagine most of us on this site are broadly supportive of.

I spent 3 months in Rafah. Most of the people writing on rafahpundits are my friends. What is your point? You think I don't know about it? What, in anything that I have said, has led you to believe that. I stated very clearly that I spent 4 months as a human rights volunteer in Palestine.

YOU asked me for references about the pleas to bomb the trainlines to Auschwitz, ("Could you give the references to the 'people that begged in vain' for trains to Auschwitz to be bombed") which I provided for you. I have never responded to you with anything other then honesty and I have treated you politely.

On the other hand you have been incredibly abusive with personal attacks on my religious beliefs and cultural heritage.

To answer another of your questions, Judeophobia, as opposed to the misused term antisemitism (as you are probably aware, Palestinians are also Semitic people) refers to hatred of Jewish people, culture and religion. eg "Sunset has arrived , my maternal one, as you make your way to be with the Murdoch One, sorry, the Penta-Gon"

You will probably just again come out with some more abuse.

What do you think about the recent attacks in Gaza? Are you doing anything about it, or just bitching on indymedia?

You are either deliberately trolling (which is my actual analysis) or you are actually unable to read and process language, or you are choosing not to understand.

You throw up straw man arguments  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
eg

"So Jewish people are all the same are they, apart from different individual experiences?" when I actually said there was a shared folk memory. Rather a different thing. Kind of like a shared Palestinian memory of the Nakbah (catastrophe of 1948 - I'm losing hope that your ignorance does not extend to those you profess to support).

and
"The situation in Palestine is not complicated and does not need to wait for some pie-in -the-sky world state without national borders."
I said:
"I know that Israel as a state can and should stop making the situation worse by continuing the occupation of Palestine and its slow genocide of the Palestinian people"

And as for asking me to comment on the attack in Gaza - would you expect a Palestinian to have to comment on a suicide bomb attack of Israeli children every time they talked about Palestine? I'm not going to couch everything I say in apologies. I have made my position perfectly clear, with word and deed. I am not in control of the Israeli state. I have been deported by the Israeli state for my practical, physical solidarity with Palestinian people. It was not a discussion about the latest news in Palestine, otherwise talking about what is going on would have been relevant. This thread is not, for me, the most important place to thoroughly explain my position. You are probably the only person reading it. Other people have got more to do then keep rereading comments from an article posted weeks ago.

Why do you put your email address on all of your posts if you don't want people to write to you? For the record I took your request for information at face value, and emailed to you the self same words as I had just posted on here.

I am more than happy to have a discussion about the Israel/Palestine situation, however I do have limited time to spend on the internet, as I spend the huge majority of my time actually trying to do concrete things to make the world a better place, including for the Palestinian people.

I will not respond again to your racist, puerile, ignorant abuse. I have put my email address on this post so that if you want to discuss it, you can, but as this whole thread is about to fall off the bottom of this newswire, and you have, as yet, not bothered to respond to any of the things I have actually said.

Hello Alice,
as I said I am sorry to cause you any inconvenience if what you are trying to say has no relevence to discussion of independent nationalism. The reason I brought the Palistine was because it is a good on-going case study-example of Imperialism versus Nationailism. Nationalism isn't all bad, but Imperialism is wholly objectionable.

Any time you mention Palestine, the next thing you know, you're having to talk abpout WWII Holocaust. Completely besides the point, and as for sources, I treat them as I do any source. As there is so much fascist propaganda about the glorious Israeli state about, experience tells me to take any info about it, from anonymous sources on the internet, with a heavy dose of salt. I am sure you know what I mean. At the moment I am reading 'The Fateful Triangle', if you know what I mean (amongst others). Try  http://groups.msn.com/RafahReports/messages.msnw for other stuff of mine.

If you have no interest in this messege board or its contents or its participants, then why keep battering on about stuff. Just leave, that is what I do if I can't be bothered, Or is this the feigned-retreat-and-no-interest-while-charging-full-steam-ahead gambit.

I am sorry if I have offended you. Some things I have said are a bit crude and personal, but I am not lazy, racist etc

I leave my email address as some sort of guarantee against people feeling I am just some anonymous freeloader. Putting the same messege on the board as you send to me via email is pointless. I respond to things in my own good time just like everyone else.

I still have no idea what you are trying to say, British establishment versus Scotland and Engalnd and Wales and Eire ?

Anyway Alice, I am sorry for any offence caused. I will have to read over your messeges again to get your gist. It is easy to be dismissive of contributers when it comes to Palestine-Pentagon debate.

Yours contritely Joe 90

PS I am sorry if I have debased this argument but shall endevour to come up to normal human standards in future. Who is full of apoligies now?

Hello Fellow Peace Lovers,
the real oppostion to the terrorist attack on defenceless Iraq in the British Parliament is by the Separist Parties such as Plaid Cymru, SNP, Sinn Feinn etc.
I know there are good people in some of the rest of the other parties, this is not to undermine their efforts. Bizarrely there are still socialists and people of consciounce in the New Labour Party, and the Lib Dems deserve support as well over their oppositionto US Empire and its terrorism, the Axis of Oil.

Did anyone see the BBC 1 'Question Time' last night Thurs 11112004, from Glasgow with The Scottish Socialist Party MSP (Member of the Scottish Parliament) Rosie Kane (no relation unfortunately) and Alex Salmond MP (Leader of the Scottish National Party). A magnificent display of solidarity with our sisters and brothers in Palestine and Iraq suffering under the international terrorism of the Pentagon and its local goon squads in west Asia.
God help any country that discovers oil under it. As we Scots know, the more oil you have the poorer the local population become and the more US weapon systems they are forced to buy (ie Trident). If they don't do that, like Iran, they are branded as targets, sorry, as unstable regimes.

100,000 and Counting
Falluja is a disgrace. I watched Channel 4 News last night (the only Brit news programme I can stomach) and saw a US Soldier despatch an Iraqi Resistance fighter with the words 'He's gone'. Disgusting !

What excuse are the neo-nazis of the Israeli regime going to concoct next, now their chief bogey man, Yasser Arafat, is dead. Israel has no-one to negotiate peace with. Hilarious! Exactly what Hitler said as he attacked defencelss populations whose only crime was to live in proximity to the racist butcher (shades of Sharon, the racist butcher of Gaza post-1967 and Sabra and Chatilla).

Always yours England, Eire, Wales and Scotland

You know you love Israel, Joe. Stop fronting.