Disrupting a fascist march, if that is what has happened, is not a "race riot" and should not be described as such.

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/8191833.stm

I agree it is not a race riot to disrupt a fascist march, what I was suggesting is that it has been made so by the opposition. Wait and see how the media will report it.

Anyhow, I was there all day and at times it was fairly scary to be a white person hanging round a group of mainly asian and black youth in that situation - though I did not see anyone attacked who were not part of the group of hooligans running towards us. I aslo witnessed many "casual-looking" lads walking past this same group who were not touched suggesting it wasn't a free-for-all kill whitey situation.

The media report that a union jack was burnt, I didn't see that. There is also a photo of an old guy with a Union Jack flag being pulled out of his hands by a group of asian lads. This guy is a homeless drunk who found the flag and was just staggering for about 1 hour being antagonistical. he was by himself and the cops told him to put the flag away for his own safety.

An interesting day.

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/8191833.stm

It's interesting this group have banners saying 'black and white unite' and 'we are not bnp'.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJFZIIhFubw

... against beige and brown. But we're not racist, honest. Puts me in mind of the old racist mantra, "I'm no racist but...". Now it appear you have to say "I'm not in the BNP but..." before spouting racist filth. Then it's alright.

I saw that on the EDL demo' earlier this year in Luton there were a handful of West Indian lads standing with the EDL. Were there any in Birmingham? There's no love lost between people of African origin and Asians around here as we all know. Also I was told there was an old Red Action banner being carried with the anti-muslim protestors in Luton, any truth in that?

Yes, I saw the "we are not the BNP" banners.

However it has been well documented now that the EDL (who are now renamed Casuals United) are a front group for the BNP.

A few weeks ago a WHOIS search on the EDL website exposed that the domain name has been setup by Chris Renton of Weston Supermare who not suprisingly appears on the leaked BNP membership list.

Damn, maybe someone should tell them? :)

No there weren't any black, asian or mixed race lads (or lasses!) on the EDL picket. Though there have been reports that groups on their way to birmingham were prevented from reaching the city centre.

EDL are not Casuals United and there maybe some sort of split, political or ego based, it is hard to say  http://www.lionheartuk.blogspot.com/

D02, here is an excerpt from the link you posted:-

"The Renton brothers (Pirates), accompanied by their 'Casual' friends subsequently hijacked the EDL name and have been pushing forward and promoting the protest for the past few weeks, using both of the names."

Okay, so they are one of the same? This would suggest so.

please do not describe this as a race riot it people of brum all colours standing up to the nazi pigs saying your not welcome.keep it up let them come again and protest even harder.

well done brum.keep right on.

if there are edl members who are not racist then get away from those who hijacked your orignal group.the edl did it self no favours by having wigan mike in it`s ranks on there first demo he is hardline nazi fronts a org called bff. get rid of the nazis bnp and alike,and you will do yourslefs the world of good.

personally i have no issue with the colour of anyones skin but if your white racist black racist yellow racist or racist fundelmentalist islamic nutter than you have to be stopped because you do this country so much damage,this is multiculturist uk like it or shut the fuck up there is room for all of us.

simple as that.

You should see Stormfront at the minute, hard ot stomach I know but they're whinging away like no buggers business at the moment AND pointing the finger of blame at each other, good times.

I have a problem though with the UAF who were spreading that it was a BNP demo just to get the numbers out. I don't like seeing things like this manipulated by the left for their own agenda especially when I think it has done more damage. The fash are loving the fact they got a propoganda victory, photos of lone white lads getting a kick in...etc. This will mean that they will strengthen their numbers and increase the likelihood of a far-right link up.

The EDL on the day managed to alienate 99% of neo-nazis with their "Black and White Unite" banner, I saw atleast 4 boneheads turn up and stand outside of the main EDL picket before leaving in disgust.

There were good points and some very bad points, the demo was defended and the hoolie were chased off, the problem is would the tables be turned for Luton on August 30th? There were also hardly any white faces on the UAF organised demo which further racialised the opinions.

A victory for anti-fascism? I don't think so.

What's everyone crying about, a load of fash got their heads kicked in, they were obviously all racists, they were on a fucking anti-Muslim march. This was nothing but a victory for the anti-fascists whether they were black, white, brown or fucking UV pink.

"Anyhow, I was there all day and at times it was fairly scary to be a white person hanging round a group of mainly asian and black youth in that situation - though I did not see anyone attacked who were not part of the group of hooligans running towards us. I aslo witnessed many "casual-looking" lads walking past this same group who were not touched suggesting it wasn't a free-for-all kill whitey situation."

Since you didn't see any evidence whatsoever of black and asian youth indiscriminantly attacking white people, why on earth would you even bring this issue up A, let alone say that you felt scared to be a white person hanging around with black and asian people? I'm afraid this is an example of latent racism on your own part, and something you would do well to think about. Good that you were there, but maybe consider your posts before you start talking about "race riots".

Anarcho Leeds -

I feel I must comment on your remarks in your post.

It's obvious the EDL or whatever they're calling themselves this week are using the anti-Muslim feeling amongst the public to further their racist campaign but when has being anti-Muslim made you a racist? I'm opposed to any religion, opiate of the people and all that, but Islam is a pretty nasty one in comparison to others. Their views on women are medieval, their treatment of animals in Halal slaughter is unbelievably cruel and abhorrent to many animal-loving vegetarian socialists including myself and their hysterical reaction to anyone criticising their beliefs isn't equated by any other religion. If the Danish press had published cartoons critical of Jesus would Christians have acted in the same way? Would CofE demonstrators have been out on London streets carrying banners saying "Behead those who insult Christianity"? I think not.

Just an interesting link to a forum, these dipsticks and the fash fucking deserve each other!

"Latent Racism"? The reports I have posted are my first hand accounts, I do not try and dress them up in lefty propaganda, the situation is more complex than that. This is a self-critical view. There were obvious racist elements with those that turned up for the EDL demo, and the leap from being anti-sharia/jihadists to anti-muslims to anti-asian was a very small leap for some to make. On reviewing alot of the you tube footage and from other accounts on the day, there were a few white lads viciously attacked. I don't know about you but there is ALWAYS a clear distinction between fascist violence and anti-fascist violence. Even if the kid was far-right (there is NO evidence for it) he didn't deserve the level of violence committed by a group of 20 people. That is not political that is sadistic.

They were also anti-white racism as we heard some chants of "get the white bastards!", when the hoolies turned up. If you were white in that situation would you be a bit threatened? We can paper over with these incidents and be good nice lefties, with good text book politics, or we can look at the reality of the situation. The EDL WILL move more towards linking up with NF for Luton and the NF will be more welcomed in future if it means that the Casuals gain the upper hand.

And to "Anarcho Leeds", as an anarchist I am opposed to the growth of islam, especially political islam as it is counter-posed to the forming of a free global human community. It is also a threat to workers autonomy and self-determination as has been seen in Islamic States like Iran. The move for more sharia courts in the UK also further ghettoses muslims in certain communities and creates a seperation from the rest of the population. Islam is a delegation of persons own rational to decide their fate. It is an adoption of a lifestyle guide based on fear, it institutionalises fear like all religions do.

I am against seperation, against division - it only benefits a fascist mind whether its white nationalism or Islamic or UV Pink.

You said:-

"It's obvious the EDL or whatever they're calling themselves this week are using the anti-Muslim feeling amongst the public to further their racist campaign but when has being anti-Muslim made you a racist?"

Ah, yet another "i'm not racist but..." argument. You are a racist if you single out one religion, culture or colour to victimise.

You are conflating Islam with extremist Islam which is racist.

The vast majority of Moslems do not want Sharia law in the UK, abhore terrorism, have no problem with educating their daughters, are not hysterical about any criticism of their beliefs, and let's be honest, is dipping live chickens into boiling water any more cruel than slitting an animals throat?

If you came out of your mostly white district (Rednall) once in a while and actually got to know Moslems you would know that they are just like everyone else. Likewise, if you paid attention to the ills of our own government's foreign policy, brutal imperialist history, repression of woman, and the murderous regime of Christianity you would see that white British culture is not so kind either. There are extremists in all cultures within our society, there are plenty of far right activists who have been convicted of harbouring explosives ready for bombing campaigns, however they have not yet received the same amount of media attention as Moslem radicals because they did not succeed. Have you ever considered how the mass media distorts reality? Just because we are all subjected to a tirade of anti-Islamic/anti-refugee sentiment from various quarters of the mass media in does not mean it is true. How many of the Daily Mail's or Sun's stories have turned out to be complete lies? These are newspapers who supported fascism during the 1930s remember.

Islam is no better or worse than any other religion. How similar is Islam to Judaism and Christianity? There is practically no difference in what they believe in or what their texts say because they are derived from one another. Imagine a similar argument to yours:-

"..but when has being anti-Jewish made you antisemitic? I'm opposed to any religion, opiate of the people and all that, but Judaism is a pretty nasty one in comparison to others. Their views towards Arabs and Palestinians is medieval, their treatment of Palestinian children is unbelievably cruel and abhorrent to many conscious socialists including myself and their hysterical reaction to anyone criticising Zionism isn't equated by any other religion. Jews have created an very successful Pro-Zionist flak machine to keep the press in check, would Christians have reacted in the same way? Would CofE demonstrators have been out on London streets carrying banners justifying the theft of an entire country?"

As you can see this is a deeply anti-semitic tirade because it conflates Judiasm and Jewishness with Zionism. There are many Jews who believe that Zionism is wrong, and in the same way many more Moslems abhore extremist Islam.

> Islam is no better or worse than any other religion.

That is nonsense I'm afraid. It's simply a dogma that all religions must be created equal rather than an observation of reality. If the Aztec religion, that demanded human sacrifice, was still around would we get the nonsense that that was really just the same as every other religion?

Many countries dominated by Islam place severe restrictions on non-Muslims and apostates (those who abandon Islam). In countries such as Malaysia it is illegal to attempt to convert a Muslim to any other religion. Algeria doesn't permit missionaries. Saudia Arabia will not permit a single church and Christians and other non-Muslims must worship in secret. In Pakistan a few days ago seven Christians were burnt alive by a mob after a rumour went round that someone had desecrated a koran.

Can you think of any other religion that places such severe restrictions? Does any country ban mosques altogether? When was the last time you heard of a mob of Christians burning some Muslims alive because there was a rumour going around that a bible had been desecrated?

Now, if you were to say that all or even most Muslims are bad people you would be wrong but that is despite Islam not because of it. People can be good because of their conscience despite their belief system.

As for the claptrap about the similarity of Islam and Christianity, this seems to be spouted by people who have never actually read a koran (or probably bible) but is taken as received wisdom. It's trite, but taken as the clever thing to say in student-union type politics. Sure, the old Testament has much Koran-style slaying, stoning, vengeance etc but wasn't Jesus meant to have said later "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Islamic texts talk of Mohammed waging war against his enemies, personally beheading prisoners etc. Little bit different from what Jesus is meant to have done.

what you said mate is right on the money spot on.well said.extreme in any culture is bad.normal jews normal christians and normal muslims just wanna get on with life,oh and normal people who follow no religion.

YOU MUST BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE.these words sum it up for me.we should all take it on board.well said ghandi.

This is what you said A:

"Anyhow, I was there all day and at times it was fairly scary to be a white person hanging round a group of mainly asian and black youth in that situation - though I did not see anyone attacked who were not part of the group of hooligans running towards us. I aslo witnessed many "casual-looking" lads walking past this same group who were not touched suggesting it wasn't a free-for-all kill whitey situation."

You also (in your original post) described what happened in Birmingham as a "race riot".

Maybe you should spend time with Black and Asian people more often and perhaps then you wouldn't feel so threatened.

¡No pasarán!
no platform for facsism

that means not allowing fascists to gather to spread their hate filled lies.
what ever they may be saying, whom ever they may be against.

if their was a EDL demo against the BNP and a BNP counter demo would you go?
course you fucking would,
i'd be perched somewhere with a bag of pop-corn and a youtube ready camcorder.

It looks like it was the same small number of football types as last time, EDL have failed to pull out significant numbers OR start a "race riot". They had barney with UAF protestors and the cops and their numbers never swelled nor did fighting spread to other areas. The aim of provoking a race riot is to get racial minorities to fight with the police or the general white population. On this basis then, it failed.

However the UAF demo looks overwhelmingly asian and muslim; this is shit. This is what the fash want (and whether they are soft fash who just like chanting inlfammatory bollocks at asians or the likes of Wigan Mike or the BNP, they are to be treated as fash). Does this mean we should turn up in force at the next demo, to balance things out? We cannot let it be seen as a battle between bearded or scarfed muslims and white football types.

PS what the fuck would a Red Action banner be doing on the racist side of a demo you prat!
Fuck off!

Piss off.

It wasn't the colour of peoples skin which is the issue. The issue was a hyped group of 150 young lads up for a fight, some of whom were shouting "get the white bastards". One of our number was actually kicked during this confrontation because we were the ONLY white faces with that group. Do you not understand that?

And for the record, I agree up in one of the most racially and culturally parts of south london - I do not need to be given "tips" or patronised.

Hi Ed,

The basis of your argument is that Islam is the most evil religion of all. I am not sure what kind of mental gymnastics you must have to go through to do to actually believe this bullshit. From your comments I imagine that you are some denomination of racist Christian :0 I find it amusing that you had to drag up a dead religion from thousands of years ago to 'debunk' the opinion that all religions are as bad as each other, however this is a failed argument too. Yes, the Aztecs held human sacrifices, but clearly you have ignored the 100,000 non-Christians burnt at the stake across Europe, a majority white continent.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt#Early_Modern_Europe

You complain of restrictive Islamic states but fail to look at repression in non-Islamic states. You ask, "can you think of any other religion that places such severe restrictions?" Well, firstly I should point out your ignorance, in your last sentence you have confused "states" and "religions"; they are not the same. States throughout the centuries have used religion as a pretext for political repression, but to provide a modern day example: Israel. In Israel It is illegal for Arab non-Jews to live in their own land, own property, to vote, or mourn the ethnic cleansing of their people/religion in 1948. The phenomenon of religious state oppression is hardly unique to Islam is it?

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba

Additionally, over one thousand Muslim homes were raided in the UK between 2001 and 2004, none of which resulted in any convictions for terrorism, but led to a handful of convictions for possession of cannabis. Almost every Muslim in the UK knows someone who had their home raided. This policy of course has lead Muslims in the UK to feel oppressed and marginalised by the British state. Despite this they are still friendly and tolerant people.

Turning to "religion" as opposed to "states" now, clearly you have not read the old testament which advocates the genocide of non-believers (including children) and the stoning of gay people. There is little difference in ideology between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam because they have common texts.

Now you ask "When was the last time you heard of a mob of Christians burning some Muslims alive because there was a rumour going around that a bible had been desecrated?" Well, that is a little overly specific :) but the spate of mass murders and shootings in American liberal churches and abortion clinics over the past 10 years is a point in hand. Since these have religious-political motivations it is fair to class them as terrorism:-

 http://shannynmoore.wordpress.com/2009/05/31/christian-fundamentalist-terrorist/

 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/5418993/Barack-Obama-shocked-by-abortion-doctor-shooting.html

Back in June, a group called "Islam4UK" brought their roadshow to New Street, openly advocating the replacement of the British civil institutions (democracy, police, parliament, judiciary, army, civil service etc) with Sharia law, Islamic courts and a complex network of scholars in a one-party religious state. Their roadshow suffered a very minor disruption from a couple of troublemakers - allegedly fascists - which I suspect precipitated the EDL demo last Saturday. I wrote about the roadshow in an Indymedia article, "Liberal values and the promotion of British Islamic rule" [1]. An interesting discussion followed regarding moderate versus extremist Islamic thought amongst British muslims.

It was a coincidence that a few weeks after, I spoke to some Muslims in Warwickshire, who were running a stall themselves - on the moderate characteristics of the real Islam. Their religion, they said, respects freedom of speech, democracy, and the institutions of countries that are not Islamic. The hadith that Muslims should fight non-Muslims was - I am told - repealed, and was put in place for a limited time in response to an anti-Muslim purge at that time.

I mention all this as some commenters above seem determined that Islam is worse than other religions. However, the above clearly shows there is disagreement amongst Muslims as to what Islam actually is. As Anon says, at various times all religions have had their extremists - and Islam is not alone in having them now, given recent examples of atrocities carried out by people professing to be Christian or Jewish.

I agree with previous commenters who point out the "I am not racist but" strands of argument. We need to be very clear that antagonistic positions against all strands of Islam are discriminatory, and contribute to the current media-stoked culture of Islamophobia. This should remain the case whilst there are moderate Muslims, as there indeed are, who disagree with extreme interpretations of the faith. My article was effectively dismissed as Islamophobic too, but I stand by it, as I criticised extremist thinking, and refused to lump moderate Muslims in with hardline scholars. (It is fine to criticise religion in general too, as it does not single out any one community for criticism.)

On a related note, I witnessed that the demo on Saturday split unintentionally into two parts. First was defeating the fascists - whilst the BBC claim there were 200, local socialists claimed 150 had turned up, and when I took a look from the New Street-Corporation Street junction, I couldn't see more than 20 (though by 6pm they had perhaps wisely cleared off). I have many issues with the police in general but in the main, that there was no bloodbath was due to the police wisely keeping the two groups well apart. A few bottles and placard laths were thrown, and there was a bit of kettling, but from what I could tell the fascists made very little impact.

It was the second part of the demo that was, in my view, much more interesting. The fascists by 6pm had dispersed around the city, and the anti-fascist groups were still much in attendance. The SWP and other socialist groups were there with the unions, and members of UAF, and I dare say there were some anarchists there too. But in the main, the group seemed to be a disaffected Asian youth who belonged to none of the above. Much of the chanting was religious in nature, as far as I could tell ("God is Great", in Arabic). This is fine in itself, of course, given that the original demo was anti-Islamic. But I did wonder how many folks there supported the aims of Islam4UK who - though I hesitate to use a much abused word - support (religious) fascist positions themselves.

A stand-off developed between the Asian youth and the police, which felt peculiar, given that the police had prevented a clash in which some of them would have been hurt. But given the lack of political direction of the bulk of this group, perhaps it was inevitable that anger over the situations in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine, as well as the Muslim repression at home, would be directed towards any immediately available authority grouping. To me, with my left-wing analytical bent, it seemed that although the police tend to maintain the political status quo whilst striving for "law and order", and violent anger at this is sometimes justified given the murder and destruction it accidentally protects, the fury at the police was misdirected in this case.

It is much easier to illustrate a causal link between, say, support for war crimes, and repressive policing at an anti-war demonstration. As much as it pains me to say it, the police were not the enemy this time, though their obedient (and unthinking) support for the military-industrial complex undoubtedly makes them so elsewhere. But I would advise those on the sharp end of protest to choose their battles more carefully, and to carry out their civil disobedience when the public can more easily understand the cause of frustration amongst modern Muslim youth.

As per my previous article - which was intended to be supportive of understandably disenchanted British Muslims - my limited criticism is not intended to cause offence. But some leftists - as this thread evidences - feel caught between two positions. Perhaps we can have some responses from non-aligned Muslims here, who were present at the demo, to see if some discussion can be opened up?

[1]  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/06/432118.html?c=on

> Now you ask "When was the last time you heard of a mob of Christians burning some Muslims alive because there was a rumour going around that a bible had been desecrated?" Well, that is a little overly specific :) but the spate of mass murders and shootings in American liberal churches and abortion clinics over the past 10 years is a point in hand. Since these have religious-political motivations it is fair to class them as terrorism:-

well thats america, the christians there are generally quite dodgy in some areas.

you seem to be arguing that Islam is not an evil religion because - there is a religion thats worst than it. Well whatever, Islam (sticking to the point) is still a very dodgy religion. Draw a few cartoons and thats it - you get a hardline group stood outside big ben shouting for the 9/11 7/7 on britain and how we are all going to get jihad-ed

Thats not normal is it? In fact, its unacceptable

Thats the kind of thing people are going on about when they say Islam is evil. Its a bit generic, but so are muslims who hold up signs saying death to all infidels. When asked about it, they would probably say "Oh, i dont mean it literally"

Hi Jon,

What you have written sounds like a very well thought out and nuanced argument, I am impressed.


Hi Mori,

"You seem to be arguing that Islam is not an evil religion because - there is a religion that's worst than it."

Well, not quite. I am arguing that all religions are pretty fucked and singling out Islam as 'most evil' when most Muslims in the world are pleasant and friendly people is finding an excuse to justify racism.

An unquantifiable number of evils have been committed in the name of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam through the centuries, and still continue to day. However, this does not make the people who are born into dogmatic belief systems bad people who are deserving of repression and punishment.

"Islam (sticking to the point) is still a very dodgy religion. Draw a few cartoons and thats it - you get a hardline group stood outside big ben shouting for the 9/11 7/7 on britain and how we are all going to get jihad-ed."

Okay, lets be clear here. There are many interpretations of Islam, in the same way that there are many interpretations of other religions, ranging from liberationary to authoritarian. For Islam, two extremes on this scale would be Suffism (liberationary) and Wahhabism (authoritarian). Within Judaism, we would be talking about Hasidim (liberationary) and Zionism (authoritarian). Within Christianity, we would be talking about Liberal Theology (liberationary) and Fundamentalist Evangelicalism (authoritarian).

Now, most Muslims in the UK are 'moderate' and abhore the name of their religion being hijacked by what they see as extremist heretics. So, the fact that EDL and some people commenting on this article are pointing straight at the most extreme end of Islam (and all religions have an extreme end) and conflating it with all the other Muslims who do not subscribe to those beliefs, is racism. Like the right wing media, they want people to think that all Muslims are the same; extremists. You say Islam is a "dodgy religion" as if it is some how "more dodgy" than other religions. Is this what you believe?

The same applies for anyone who attempts to conflate Judaism and Zionism (an ideology which has ethnic cleansing at it's core, we are talking about *real* oppression not idle threats from some losers outside Big Ben), or conflating Church of England god botherers with Christians who shoot up churches and plant nail bombs in abortion clinics.