pro-Palestinian meeting to go ahead despite crypto-zionist intervention

Thanks for posting this. It is indeed quite accurate of the events that have taken place and it exposes the methodologies of Tony for what they are: bullying until he gets his way and especially a total disinterest for what is happening "on the ground" in Israel-Palestine. Oh, were it so easy to just fight an activist here and there.

His idea of "a good week's work" is absolutely depressing and demonstrates where his heart and energy lies.

"it is clear that his concerns are exactly the same as those of zionists, and also that he routinely uses exactly the same tactics as zionists to attempt to silence those who do not share his blatantly ugly worldview."

So, basically because Greenstein calls a racists a racist he must be a "Zionist"? I think Atzmon is a racist and I am neither Jewish nor a Zionist. In fact, I think Israel should be dismantled. Does that make me a Zionist? Does my dislike of racism strike out my anti-Zionism? Does Zionist here basically mean anyone who dislikes racism against Jews? Just as 'Antisemite' just means anti-Zionist from the mouth of a Zionist?

Tarring all Jews with same brush is racism, as is calling all Palestinians "terrorists". Establishing a negative stereotype and insinuating that it is ethnically prevalent is racism.

Racism helps no one. Give it no platform!

Great summing up of the background to this latest debacle in Greenstein's vicious campaign. The Brighton community, subjected so long to the anti-social behaviour of Tony Greenstein (his vandalising of church property being just the latest offense) and the obtuse mutterings of his mouthpiece at the Argus, Jean Calder, is fortunate indeed to have Gilad Atzmon speaking and playing there tonight. What a breath of fresh air. Wish I could be there! Long live Palestine.

Dear ftp,

now you're just being silly. You or Atzmon are not subject to a zionist/Jewish conspiracy. There are simply a lot of people (including Greenstein) who find Atzom's anti-Israel views unacceptable. Of course as an indymedia admin you have great powers to influence the debate, but please don't abuse them.

Peeps, you just don't have any credibility left on the Atzmon thing, and damned little on antisemitism in general.

You're defending an antisemite, and the only way you can do so is to invent this bizarre narrative that one of the UK's loudest and most persistent anti-Zionists is actually a "crypto-Zionist." It's like saying that Salma Yaqoob is crypto-BNP. It's laughable on the face of it. Or it would be if the net effect weren't that you're showing the world just how far you are willing to go to into alternate realities just to defend the antisemite Atzmon.

You've dug in your heels over the wrong guy, peeps. You're embarrassing yourself.

Atzmon blames the Jews for the Holocaust. He does it in the very interview you made with him, but you were too clueless to see what he was doing.

It really makes me wonder. Have you ever actually seen an antisemite whose antisemitism you couldn't excuse?

@%<

I remember the interview perfectly - you've clearly decoded it from the depths of your 'holocaust deniers in my cornflakes' mind, and once again found stuff that wasn't there.

In any case, as someone who says that the Palestinians are responsible for their own oppression, theres a big similarity between what you accuse Atzmon of, and what you believe. So it means you must be a racist.......

The very fact that you put so much work into a blog defending the crypto-zionist and his ugly worldview speaks volumes about his move from anti-zionism to crypto-zionism.

When will you be opening your blog up to comments? I've a few rectifications I think need making......

Where is the proof of Greenstein's "crypto-Zionism' then?

"now you're just being silly. You or Atzmon are not subject to a zionist/Jewish conspiracy. There are simply a lot of people (including Greenstein) who find Atzom's anti-Israel views unacceptable. Of course as an indymedia admin you have great powers to influence the debate, but please don't abuse them."

Writing an article supporting Atzom does not constitute abusing administrative powers, anyone could have written this article. Please do not lower the tone of this discussion by resorting to petty name calling.

There seems to be a few blind spots on this thread.

FTP has indeed abused his position by doing what normally only trolls or people needing to cool down do. He interpolated a pure personal attack into a post. And this line is quite telling of motive, "the fact that a prominent pro-Palestinian activist has organised a meeting in Greenstein's home town is somewhat of a snub to him."

But FTP's name calling wasn't "petty" it was major.

I call Atzmon a racist on the basis of his tendency to ascribe negative ethnic traits to Jews: tarring all with the same brush. He asserts that the Jewish character was a significant factor in the Holocaust. That these negative stereotypes can be seen right back in Biblical times. That is defacto and dejure racism. I haven't decide whether FTP is an outright racist, a useful idiot or just exceptionally naive.

We are yet to discover what the basis of FTP's "crypto-Zionist" charge is. But interestingly this seems to be offered as some sort of qualifier:

"it is clear that his concerns are exactly the same as those of zionists, and also that he routinely uses exactly the same tactics as zionists to attempt to silence those who do not share his blatantly ugly worldview. His main priority appears to be that Palestinians should put "anti-semitism" (which he himself describes as a marginal prejudice) at the heart of their struggle for liberation."

Does FTP mean that Greenstein is a "Zionist" because he accuses certain people of antisemitism? It's hard to say what the sentence means- just like racist literature which is often difficult to work with since the authors are always skirting around the point. But given that the next line references antisemitism, it's not exactly a flight of fancy. It would be pretty moronic to assert that anyone who complains about racism is a Zionist.

Sounds to me like just another antisemite who won't let go of his toys and thinks that the treatment of Palestine excuses all sins and turns racism into a positive virtue. What is exactly what racists on the right do too.

Quite how nobody at Indymedia is up in arms about this is startling.

... that mr greenstein and his associate - the one trick pony 'gehrig' - find it unacceptable that people are willing to make their own mind up and actually listen to the words of someone exiled from the tribes counternance ...

... thus it follows that - with democratic and activist credentials pinned firmly to sleeve - greenstein et al ratchet up their campaign of villification, invention and division ...

'Racism' is a non-starter as a means to either describe the outlook of those set against the 'jewish world view' or those who are simply xenophobic in their dealings with pepole and ideas beyond their experience and sympathy. We are not falling for the homogenous fallacy ... or tribal view ...

The state of israel is a racist apartheid state that claims the right to be a 'jewish state' at the expense of the more fundamental rights of life liberty and justice for the MAJORITY of those who live within the sphear of its influence.

Not content with the destruction of lives, property and aspirations of the non jews who live therein, greenstein et al are comfortable attempting the same on their (supposedly) co-religionists when they dare to ignore the dictat of 'chosenness' and act as if rights where extended equally, rather than from two queues ... one fast moving luxury shopping mall for jews, and one long snaking, barely moving open aired lottery for the rest ...

Well, it simply will not do. Quite apart from the depressing spectacle of sheer unmitigated rudeness, the familiar absense of reason and substantiated history, the overwhelming presense of hostile, shrill & 'non negotiable' demands ... this issue highlights the glaring truth of the desire - if not ability - of zionists to control both sidesof the argument.

Calls for the 're-modelling' of indymedia along lines more acceptable and useful for greenstein et al will be familiar to any who have made a study of media conglomeration and advertising (withdrawn) power in the face of a concerted and connected lobby ...

Fine.

I calculate that for everyone your campaign influences or mis-informs, ten more will have been disgusted at your banal tantrums and made some form of postive effort to inform themselves ... ie dis-abused themselves of the necesary lies you propagate.

Crypto yes, in the sense that any fifth columnist must guard against revealing the foreign power they work for ...

But thank you anyway, I have followed very carefully the ins and outs of this one ... you reveal yourselves and highlight the methodology in the bright spotlight of your mean stupidity.

"mr greenstein and his associate - the one trick pony 'gehrig' "

As far as I am aware there is no association between those two people.

Which makes this untrue:

"I have followed very carefully the ins and outs of this one"

Even more so considering that no-one involved in the ensuing discussions has argued any pro-Israel corner. From what I can gather Greenstein is a long-standing anti-Zionist activist who is being smeared for speaking up against antisemitism.

Can you spot the difference between disgust at racism and support for Israel?

The Indymedia newswire is open publishing, and at no time ever have I agreed to give up posting on it as an individual. I'm bored to death with the tedious trolling of those who do nothing but try to shut down debate on the Israel-Palestine issue, and I owe them exactly fuck all. If Greenstein wants to go round behaving like a zionist, and it is clear that his troll friends are hard line zionists, then I think the label crypto-zionist is apt and will use it as often as I want.

If you have issues with moderation on the site, take them to the list, and as you should all know by now, issues to do with Atzmon and moderation are posted to the wiki.

I'm not going to spend my life answering the attacks of gehrig, 'Mike Cooperson' or his hundreds of other identities, nor nim chimsky and his plethora of idenities, cos they bore me to death and I couldn't give a stuff what they think of me or anything else for that matter.

"mr greenstein and his associate - the one trick pony 'gehrig' "

As far as I am aware there is no association between those two people.

...

None, nada, zilch !?!

So what?

If a known hardcore zionist comes out with support for someone who profiligates the same miserable non-choice as they ... why bother trying to find the daylight between them?

Better things to do blah blah blah ....

"If a known hardcore zionist comes out with support for someone who profiligates the same miserable non-choice as they ..."

Really? So the fact that both Gehrig and Greenstein find Atzmon offensive means they are singing broadly from the same sheet?

"why bother trying to find the daylight between them?"

It's called having a credible stance. And trying to say that Greenstein and Gehrig are interchangeable because they happen to agree on one issue is plainly ridiculous.

Seems to me like you have no clue as to what this is all about and who Greenstien is. I won't speculate as to why you felt obliged to leap in an start bandying about accusations of Zionism.

Lot's of Neo-Nazis accuse anyone who cries "antisemitism" as being "Zionists". Should I bother making a distinction between you and them?

... and the other is a crypro-zionist.

The behaviour is however identical.

Both are obsessed with anti-semitism and Jewishness.

FTP seems to have difficulty with the truth and is becoming little more than Atzmon’s rabid attack dog.

1. I wasn’t flyposting in a church. I put up a couple of posters. The Brighthelm in Brighton is a Church & Community Centre. Indeed the church part is all but invisible as it consists of the HQ for a local voluntary sector organisation, was the centre for the Womens Centre till last year and is a favourite meeting place of all sorts of groups. Posters cover most of its walls and it was when I was putting them up that the Manager asked to see them and on that basis HE decided, after consultation with the Chair of his Management Committee that the meeting should go ahead.

2. I grew up a Zionist with a rabbi for a father. As I told the UNISON national conference last year, speaking as the only Jewish speaker in support of a Boycott of Israel (strange crytp-Zionist!) that I grew up in the shadow of the Nazi holocaust. I came to support the Palestinians opposition to Zionism precisely because I opposed racism, whoever it came from and whomsoever it was directed against. Is it really suggested that I turn a blind eye to anti-Semitism? When Atzmon states (on Indymedia unfortunately) in Hunters of Goliath that the lessons Israel should learn from the holocaust is the unpopularity of the Jews (is this a lesson gypsies and gays should also learn too?) or when he tells me that Israel Shamir, a Board member of Deir Yassin Remembered is a ‘unique and advanced thinker’ (Auschwitz being an internment not an extermination camp is an example of his advanced thinking) or that the Palestine solidarity movement would be much stronger but for the Jews in it (Dialectic of Negation) etc. etc. or that ‘“we must begin to take the accusation that the Jewish people [he’s changed this to Zionists as he admitted on his Guardian CIF article] are trying to control the world very seriously…. …. American Jewry makes any debate on whether the 'Protocols of the elder of Zion' are an authentic document or rather a forgery irrelevant. American Jews do try to control the world, by proxy… I would suggest that perhaps we should face it once and for all: the Jews were responsible for the killing of Jesus who, by the way, was himself a Palestinian Jew.” Should I remain silent? Pretend that nothing is amiss? It would be inconsistent to oppose the virulent racism against Palestinians in Israel and then pretend that Atzmon is, well, just a little confused.

3 The suggestion that the Protocols of the Elders of Zionism, the most lethal document in the Nazi ideological armoury, was true mirrors Hitler’s comment in Mein Kampf that the document must be genuine because what it says is true. Atzmon says it doesn’t matter if it is a forgery because it is true!

4. My disagreements with Atzmon began when he defend the holocaust deniers in Deir Yassin Remembered whose British director Paul Eisen believes that the evidence against gas chambers in Auschwitz is much stronger than that against. But Atzmon is a great fan of his.

5 As to being a crypto-Zionist. FTP clearly understands nothing of Zionism. Apart from being a founder member of Palestine Solidarity Campaign nationally and Jews Against Zionism I played a pivotal part in UNISON supporting a boycott of the Israeli state, one of only 2 trade unions to do so in the UK. Maybe FTP could tell us his achievements apart from engaging in abuse.

6. Yes FTP, what is happening in Gaza is a war crime. Just how does anti-Semitism help the Palestinians in Gaza? Anti-Semitism has always been the traditional ally of Zionism, because without the push of anti-Semitism there would never have been a Jewish state. Anti-semites are the best friends of Zionism such as Arthur Balfour, who introduced Britain’s first immigration laws against Jewish refugees from Russia but was happy to send them to Palestine.

7. In fact there is a significant group of Zionists who are good drinking friends of Atzmon. Search the right-wing blog Harry’s Place for Atzmon and you’ll pick up a particular curiosity by the name of Mikey.

8. Yes absolutely I’ve asked Indymedia to remove Atzmon’s racist rantings. There are plenty of conspiracy sites he could post to. I suspect the BNP might find space for him. But Indymedia is supposed to be anti-racist and anti-imperialist, so why is Atzmon and his footsoldier FTP allowed to propagate this racist rubbish. I’m not a crypto-Zionist but an anti-Zionist Jew, but if you believe, like the fascists that all Jews are Zionists then of course he is right! Atzmon incidentally describes himself as an ex-Jew.

9. And I don’t know Gehrig either! These conspiracies that some people harbour.
10. It is ironic that people like Lenni Brenner, Moshe Machover and myself, the people that Zionists attacked as the most hard-line anti-Zionists, are now crypto-Zionists because we are consistent in our opposition to racism. I can live with that. But although FTP is incapable of learning anything I will nonetheless try. Jews in the West are not a persecuted minority. Racism today is anti-Black and Islamic. Jews are a prosperous community, and a fast disappearing one too – the absence of anti-Semitism usually means Jews assimilate. Anti-Semitism from the likes of Atzmon will not harm them at all. What it will do is tarnish the Palestinians by association. All that FTP is doing is helping the Israelis continue with their starvation siege of Gaza.

11. What is disgraceful though is that one of the Indymedia moderators is now a not very sophisticated apologist for anti-Semitism. The sooner he goes his own way and sets up his own conspiracy site the better.

"All that FTP is doing is helping the Israelis continue with their starvation siege of Gaza."

So - If I accept that Atzmon is a racist, the siege of Gaza will end?

You are one big joke Mr. Greenstein

Sick more than funny as it happens.......

I see that Tony is again repeating and recycling himself in the same words, some of them actually misquotes that have been illustrated on my blog and elsewhere.

Since he considers me a "wretch", and claims he wants nothing to do with communicating with me (another of his lies, as is evidenced every time that I post on another list, where he misquotes me and attacks me just out of habit), I am glad he won't waste my time giving a rebuttal, and I won't waste my time pointing out yet again the blatant fabrication and falsity of his claims.

There are other arguments here that would be worth commenting on, but as it is, I'm formatting Gilad's Brighton talk, so people can actually deal with content instead of fluff.

Now, just to comment on one thing, though: Tony Greenstein wrote:
It is ironic that people like Lenni Brenner, Moshe Machover and myself, the people that Zionists attacked as the most hard-line anti-Zionists, are now crypto-Zionists because we are consistent in our opposition to racism. I can live with that.

Nope; it's not ironic. All you have to do is see that they are indeed racists and Islamophobes. I won't tell them to shut up about it, they are surely free to hold the opinions they hold, yet my blog exposes it again and again using their own words. (oh, Tony, you forgot to mention Shraga, who thinks Khalid Amayreh is responsible and accountable for his situation). Just plug in the words Tony Greenstein, Moshe Machover, Lenni Brenner, Islamophobe, racism on my blog word search, and there are more than a few article to chose from, with words directly from Tony and friends. Have fun in your research, and remember those glass houses!

TG: I grew up a Zionist with a rabbi for a father

GA: it still didn’t save you from becoming a credit card fraudster as soon as you left your father’s home.

TG: As I told the UNISON national conference last year, speaking as the only Jewish speaker in support of a Boycott of Israel (strange crytp-Zionist!)

GA: How did you know that you were the only Jewish speaker? Did you spy the other male speakers in the toilets? Tony why can’t you stop yourself from employing racial categories? And what do you mean when you say “speaking as the only Jewish speaker”? Was it in Idish? Was it a Talmudic argument you came up with? Was it the colour of your blood?

TG: I grew up in the shadow of the Nazi holocaust.

GA: Apparently, so are the Palestinians and the Israelis and the Germans and everyone else on this planet. The issue here is simple, while we all try to understand the meaning of this horrible event, you just adopted fascist tactics. You had become a Nazi yourself,,, and this is very sad.

TG: I came to support the Palestinians opposition to Zionism precisely because I opposed racism, whoever it came from and whomsoever it was directed against.

GA: Tony’le… people who oppose racism do not operate within racially exclusive political cells such as ‘JEWS against Zionism’. Anti racist operate as ordinary human beings.

TG: Is it really suggested that I turn a blind eye to anti-Semitism? When Atzmon states (on Indymedia unfortunately) in Hunters of Goliath that the lessons Israel should learn from the holocaust is the unpopularity of the Jews (is this a lesson gypsies and gays should also learn too?)

GA: Your clear unpopularity in Brighton was part of the success of my talk in YOUR town. I suggest to you as I suggest to the Israelis… look in the mirror. You repeat the mistakes of your grandfathers… you in particular Tony…


TG: or when he tells me that Israel Shamir, a Board member of Deir Yassin Remembered is a ‘unique and advanced thinker’ (Auschwitz being an internment not an extermination camp is an example of his advanced thinking) or that the Palestine solidarity movement would be much stronger but for the Jews in it (Dialectic of Negation) etc.

GA: I suggest that rather than quoting and misquoting peaople you may try to learn how to read properly. Shamir is an advanced thinker as much as you are the ultimate banal joker. Thinkers are defined by being thought provoking rather than by political affiliation. Moreover, I have never tried to exclude you from the Pls solidarity movement. I just asked you to accept that Pls solidarity is about Pls rather than about a few Jews in the movement.

TG: or that ‘“we must begin to take the accusation that the Jewish people [he’s changed this to Zionists as he admitted on his Guardian CIF article]

GA: For sure I did, to prevent silly Zionist like yourself who fail in reading basic texts from having an argument. However, I remember that Izzat darwazeh pointed out to on JPUK that your initial reading of the very text was wrong and I was referring to Zionists. You could save yourself 3 years of humiliation. I assume that next it is going to be the unemployed of Brighton and Hove who are going to invite me to hear my views…you are done Tony’le.

TG: Jewish People are trying to control the world very seriously…. …. American Jewry makes any debate on whether the 'Protocols of the elder of Zion' are an authentic document or rather a forgery irrelevant. American Jews do try to control the world, by proxy…

GA: Tony’le after the exposure of David Abrhams proxy donation to the Labour party at the time this country declared an illegal war against Iraq…. We better admit it… it is all about PROXY, domination and POWER… you yourself try to do the same within Pls solidarity movement. You are acting as an elder Zionist yet you are pretty stupid as your Jewish comrade Brian Robinson pointed out to you and others 2 days ago… should I quote what he says about you?


TG: I would suggest that perhaps we should face it once and for all: the Jews were responsible for the killing of Jesus who, by the way, was himself a Palestinian Jew.” Should I remain silent?

GA: No please shout it out loudly, Jews have nothing to do with Christ death…shell we as well burn the Bible? ..You shouldn’t remain silent, you should approach a shrink and ask him to explain it to you all. How is it that you feel implicated by crime that was committed 2000 years ago. This is exactly the question I ask in my paper. And you know what, we both know the answer. You are concerned cos you are a proper Sanhedrin killer. You move from one crucifixion to the other, you crucified Shamir, than you moved to Eisen, than Marry Rizzo, than Myself than FTP and IM UK. Tony you know no limit but we all know how limited you are. And it makes us laugh

TG: Pretend that nothing is amiss? It would be inconsistent to oppose the virulent racism against Palestinians in Israel and then pretend that Atzmon is, well, just a little confused.

GA: Your friends came to listen to me in your town, they were sitting in front of me and took every word I said very seriously, they were sitting for 3 hours. I think that by now they are pretty sure that it is you who is confused. Tony, you have just brought on yourself another Shoa. You are good at it. I hope you never stop.

‘“we must begin to take the accusation that the Jewish people [he’s changed this to Zionists as he admitted on his Guardian CIF article] are trying to control the world very seriously…. …. American Jewry makes any debate on whether the 'Protocols of the elder of Zion' are an authentic document or rather a forgery irrelevant. American Jews do try to control the world, by proxy… I would suggest that perhaps we should face it once and for all: the Jews were responsible for the killing of Jesus who, by the way, was himself a Palestinian Jew.”

is that really what Atzmon thinks? is there proof he has said/written that? if yes sould there really be a question that indymedia bans his posts and anyone trying to argue the same.


Fight anti-semitism!

Tell me conrade Fight

is Fight your first name or family name..

Your parents were creative as far as names are concerned...

what's your brother called? ha ha ha

However, here is the url

 http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/onanti.html

make sure you tell us what you thing

Now that I have stopped crying with laughter, I'll make a quick comment, but I'll be back later to pose some questions to Gilad about some things he has written and seek clarification.

But first, "Tony’le… people who oppose racism do not operate within racially exclusive political cells such as ‘JEWS against Zionism’. Anti racist operate as ordinary human beings."

Well, JAZ aren't exactly Aryans Nations. They don't check your tackle at the door or subject you to a Jewishness test. They aren't designed to exclude everyone else from the debate.

That aside Jewish ethnicity isn't purely defined by "race". Anyone could become a Jew. I could turn up at my local Synagogue tomorrow and start the process.

So calling JAZ a racist group is just plain silly. Unless of course you want to damn all socio-ethnic groups like 'Anarchists against the Wall', as being "exclusive".

The local newspaper in Brighton, The Argus, asked me to write a Comment piece of 800 words on the whole episode of my invitation to Gilad and the opposition to it ( http://archive.theargus.co.uk/2007/12/31/248221.html). When I submitted it, the editor said that he had changed his mind and no longer wanted to publish our article on this subject. One can imagine what pressure had been brought to bear to bring about this volte face.


The Article (that the Argus decided to not publish, after their beefy campaign to smear!)

My Fears for Free Speech and the Palestinians

by Francis Clark-Lowes

In their book, The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy (2007), John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt, two well-respected American academics, illustrate the kind of intimidation used against those in high places who do not conform to an Israeli view of the world. I know what it feels like, because I have just experienced something similar – except that in this case my leading opponent, my old friend Tony Greenstein, is an anti-Zionist Jew, someone who rejects the very idea of Israel.

When I announced yesterday’s Invitation to Learn meeting, at which the well-known jazz musician and ex-Israeli, Gilad Atzmon, spoke on ‘The Primacy of the Ear: The Road from Music to Ethics’, all hell broke loose. In particular, Jean Calder, almost certainly prompted by Greenstein, wrote a comment column in The Argus of 29th/30th December in which Atzmon was presented as a racist of the worst order. He is nothing of the sort. Moreover she suggested that the Brighthelm Centre should not host such an event. Shortly thereafter Greenstein was found sticking up posters at the Centre advertising a picket of the event.

There was no time to counter Greenstein’s and Calder’s arguments to the satisfaction of the manager of the venue. The lurid depiction of Atzmon tapped into well-worn narratives about anti-Jewish prejudice, and under these intimidating circumstances I felt it my duty to save the Brighthelm Centre further embarrassment by cancelling the booking and transferring the venue to my house.

Ironically last night we found ourselves besieged and overcrowded in much the same way as the Palestinians in Gaza as we witnessed Atzmon’s moving account of his political journey through the medium of his encounter with Arabic music. His message was crystal clear: that we need to listen to the other.

The Palestinians are suffering as a result of a settlement programme which started in the late nineteenth century and continues apace today. If they had been granted equal status with the newcomers peace might have been possible. But it was clear from the beginning that Zionism aimed at removing the native population.

The received wisdom is that Zionism is a Jewish national movement growing out of the persecution of Jews. But since Zionism arose at a time of Jewish emancipation is it not at least as credible, as the Jewish-Israeli writer Akiva Orr has suggested, that Zionism was an attempt to rescue Jewish identity at a time of declining religious practise, and consequently of assimilation and intermarriage?

If this is right, then mainstream secular Jewish identity has become Zionism. Any criticism of Zionism is, therefore at risk of being labelled ‘anti-Semitism’. This is what Atzmon thinks has happened. Of course we both recognise that others take a different view. All we ask is that the subject be on the agenda, rather than dismissing it as racism.

For if we are correct in what we think, it would radically change our view of how to help the Palestinians. It would then be frankly recognised that a collective of non-Israeli Jews (read all the usual caveats) act to preserve Israel not only from undue criticism, but more importantly, from any effective international sanctions. It is rare indeed for its main backer, the US, to put serious pressure on the Jewish state. As Mearsheimer and Walt point out, the pressure is often the other way around.

Invitation to Learn, the organisation I set up a couple of years ago, exists to encourage unrestricted thought and discussion and to express solidarity with oppressed peoples. We should not be prevented from thinking about issues because some people would prefer we didn’t. ‘Well, would you invite members of the BNP then?’ I have been asked. Concern for the oppressed is not, I believe, a major plank of the BNP, and so the answer is no.

Nevertheless, I believe that arguments which are accepted by a sizeable section of British society should be honestly engaged with rather than simply dismissed out of hand. It is all too easy to distort the arguments of those with whom we disagree for propaganda purposes. This is what Greenstein does with Atzmon.

Your correspondent James Stephenson (7th Jan) rightly points out the absurdity of regarding Jews and Arabs as separate races – many Jews are indeed Arabs. But for the conflict to be resolved there needs to be a proper understanding of how the Palestinians have been, and continue to be, oppressed. And that means looking at the power exerted by Jews internationally – for the sake not only of non-Jews, but also of Jews. Some will call this the old conspiracy theory, but if we are over careful to avoid old stereotypes we may enable the behaviour portrayed by them.

Perhaps this sentence jarred with them as much as it did me:

"Some will call this the old conspiracy theory, but if we are over careful to avoid old stereotypes we may enable the behaviour portrayed by them."

Now since genocide, racism, and any number of sins are not unique to Jews/Israelis/the State of Israel or Jewish culture, I wonder how any stereotype could ever be relevant and anything less than ignorant and offensive?

Basically you have said "I know we're not suppose to call Jews/Israelis/Whatever this..." but if we stop looking at it as stereotypical behaviour then we can't address the stereotype. Circular reasoning.

Do you really not know what is so wrong about stereotypes? I'm guessing you would never tolerate reference to 'lazy blacks', 'child molesting gays' and 'retarded Muslims'. So why would a stereotype of Jews be any more viable? All stereotypes rob the individual of their identity. They demean and dehumanise. And as pointed out above, I have yet to find one that was remotely accurate.

The answer is simple. Don't address the stereotype, address the crimes and the criminals.

Apart from that, who the hell is 'Jean Calder'? I love that in English if you add 'certainly' to an adverbial phrase it can mean the total opposite.

TG: "It is ironic that people like Lenni Brenner, Moshe Machover and myself, the people that Zionists attacked as the most hard-line anti-Zionists, are now crypto-Zionists because we are consistent in our opposition to racism."

Olga: It is not ironic - it is actually funny.

Machover, you and Brenner are 3 dead horses. No one wants to listen to you. When is the last time you published a comment about Palestine? You all serve the Jewish cause, one day you save he Holocaust , the next day you fight antisemitsm. Tony, will you let us know what did you do for Palestine in the last decade? Open our eyes. It is not a coincidence that the entire community of Brighton’s Palestinian supporters came to listen to Atzmon on a freezing cold Monday night in January. Some people sat on the floor taking notes for 3 hours! What were you doing, watching East Enders?

Enlighten us, when is the last time you gave a talk? When is the last time anyone listened to you aside from your shrink? Your mentor Brenner didn't even manage to attract 20 people in London last summer summer. You are a source of shame for our movement. Please follow Paul De Rooij’s suggestion and join Engage. You sound like them and you act like them

"Don't address the stereotype, address the crimes and the criminals."


The context is that Francis was talking about the need for an examination of "power exerted by Jews internationally" - any other powerful group can be called powerful without accusations of dredging up some forgery or other. Theories about how they exert their influence can be aired without calls for banishment from Indymedia, or pontification by authoritarian secularist crypto-zionists about how the person who makes them should not be allowed to speak in church premises.......

Here we have supposed progressive left-wingers, zionists and crypto-zionists on a supposedly radical site baying for blood because of a statement that ZIONISTS are trying to run the world.

If someone raised in Israel expressing his opinion on the power of the zionist lobby has to then face a vindictive zionist stylee campiagn to have him purged from Indymedia, then something has gone horribly awry.

Either you see that, or you don't.

I'm not at all against the criticism of Zionism. I'm against the broad brush racist stereotypes. And you could hand wallpaper with Atzmon's.

I'm not in denial about pro-Israel lobbies nor about over the top 'defamation' chasers.

Try stepping back from things for a second to re-examine the situation regarding 'Zionists trying to rule the World'. I find the assertion is hideously Eurocentric (and that includes the former colonies). The argument fails to clear the first hurdle. There is no significant Jewish lobby in most of the world! There is no significant Jewish influence in China, Russia, Africa, Mongolia, New Zealand, Greenland, The Pitcairns or Liliput.

So in sheer numbers that fails.

What I do see, is pro-Israeli lobbies concentrating a lot of effort on the countries that do support Israel. The US and the UK. This is to me is a chicken and egg argument on many levels, but the simplified take is that I haven't seen any argument yet compelling enough to prove the tail is wagging the dog. Nor that Israel's privileged position is more to do with it being in a strategically advantageous place.

Again, I don't care about people sticking the boot into Zionism. I've joined in on the odd 3 Minute Hate too. Zionists are well disposed to defend themselves and willing combatants. I care more about all the other people who get lumped in with them when people perpetuate old racist stereotypes.

It upsets me as much as when I hear people attacking Islam off the back of terrorism. The reason is quite obvious: most Muslims are not fanatical killers, nowhere near it. The problem is extremists buy into this shit and people who haven't even elected themselves to the firing line get victimised.

I've yet to see any evidence to the effect that most Jews are Zionists. Most live in the diaspora from what I gather. And even if there was a majority I'd try to be careful not to lump the anti-Zionists in with them.

Either you see that or you don't!

ftp: "The context is that Francis was talking about the need for an examination of "power exerted by Jews internationally" - any other powerful group can be called powerful without accusations of dredging up some forgery or other. Theories about how they exert their influence can be aired without calls for banishment from Indymedia, or pontification by authoritarian secularist crypto-zionists about how the person who makes them should not be allowed to speak in church premises......."

Hey, peeps, please show me anything from Tony Greenstein saying that Atzmon should not have been allowed to speak. You won't be able to, and you know it, because you know that Greenstein was not trying to shut the meeting down.

And if you weren't so ignorant about the history of European antisemitism, you'd know exactly why accusing the Jews of "trying to run the world" is more problematic than accusing other ethnic groups of the same thing. Something about the world's best-selling forgery, the one you wave away so cavalierly, despite the fact that it led to the deaths of one out of every three Jews on the planet. Maybe you've heard of it. Your hero, the antisemite Atzmon, goes around saying it's effectively true.

If Atzmon were playing with any other kind of ethnic stereotype, you'd kick his ass right out. But because he's playing with antisemitic stereotypes, you let him say whatever he wants, and then blame those he offends with his racism for being offended. It's disgusting.

ftp: "If someone raised in Israel expressing his opinion on the power of the zionist lobby has to then face a vindictive zionist stylee campiagn to have him purged from Indymedia, then something has gone horribly awry."

Yes, something *has* gone horribly awry -- if that someone raised in Israel consistently puts his opinion in antisemitic terms and you have no trouble with it and fight with every muscle and sinew to keep from even *seeing* it.

Either you see that or you don't. And you plainly don't.

Anti Israeli Zionist (NPAIZ):I 've yet to see any evidence to the effect that most Jews are Zionists. Most live in the diaspora from what I gather. And even if there was a majority I'd try to be careful not to lump the anti-Zionists in with them.


GA: Who says that most Jews are Zionists? Me? We say that Greenstein is a zionist...we don't know much about Jews as a collective!!

You better read my paper rather than counting on Greenstein, you have to remember Greenstein is a petty criminal with a serious record, he is an ex shoplifter, credit card fraudster, he is banned from Brighton Polytechnic for vandalism, he has a massive record of intimidation and this includes a church last week... do you really want to trust him of all people? Would you buy a 2nd hand car from him... i guess not!

why don't you go and read for yourself?

We than may take you seriously.

The following is me addressing your previous comment:

NPAIZ: Well, JAZ aren't exactly Aryans Nations. They don't check your tackle at the door or subject you to a Jewishness test. They aren't designed to exclude everyone else from the debate.

GA: Clearly you do not have to be a Nazi to be a racist. The term ‘racist’ refers to racial orientation and operating in a Jewish exclusive grouping implies racial orientation. And they are designed to exclude…

NPAIZ: That aside Jewish ethnicity isn't purely defined by "race". Anyone could become a Jew. I could turn up at my local Synagogue tomorrow and start the process.

GA: You are almost correct here… Jewish ethnicity is not defined by race because Jews do not form a race, yet Jewishness is racially orientated. If you cannot see the difference just think about it for a few days (the difference between being a race and being racially orientated)

NPAIZ: So calling JAZ a racist group is just plain silly.

GA: We expose JAZ as a racially orientated political operation. When you have a moment please provide us with the list of Goyim affiliated with JAZ.

NPAIZ: Unless of course you want to damn all socio-ethnic groups like 'Anarchists against the Wall', as being "exclusive".

GA: You lost me, why exactly makes “Anarchists against the Wall' into a ‘socio ethnic’ group? Where exactly is the ethnic reference? I would denounce “Jewish Anarchists against the Wall' as much as I would denounce “Aryans against the Wall'. Similarly, ‘Jews Against Zionism’ is indeed as idiotic as ‘Aryan against Zionism’… think about it for a while.

I'll get round to my questions ASAP (I'm actually up to my ears in some work at the moment), but here's a quick reply to your point on ethnicity.

Sorry, my fault really. Given that "race" has no real basis in science (there is a continuum of features and no clear delineation beyond extremes) the notion of ethnicity has become blurred to beyond the superficial physicality (which by all test fails as a qualifier of "race" or even national identity).

All social groupings are effectively ideological (especially if you are of the thinking that there is no God). Which means there is no special functional difference between any collection of people who identify with a group. They are in effect the same mechanism with different modes of expression/affinity.

Read Eric Hobsbawn on it. It's very interesting stuff. Read Ute Benz on the function of group identity in right-wing extremism if it's available in English.

Anyway, without some sort of manifesto stating that Jews should be the only one's to discuss Zionism, the assertion that JAZ is no more exclusive than AATW still holds.


Also, note that the information about Greenstein's charge sheet isn't really relevant to the discussion. Besides, I'm not shopping for a side to believe or trust. I'm just trying to put my own point across.

a petty criminal won't teach us ethics!!!

he won't tell us what is right and what is wrong,

He can suggest, but not more than that...

when he joins shumanity, we may even listen to him

For the time being he acts as chosen and we don't really buy it

How? The discussion isn't about whether he is a suitable applicant for an unsecured loan. In fact, he isn't relevant to my points at all.

And you're in the wrong house to be playing the 'law abiding citizen card!

But anyway explain how Greenstein's conviction either proves he's a crypto-Zionist or disproves you are a racist.

i thought i had some time for GA but after reading this i'm not so sure. what is this discussion really all about. TG goes up in my estimation if he has all these 'criminal' things against him, GA goes down for thinking that it is relevant. GA also goes down as time wasting sectarian if the thinks actually opposing a group like JAZ is worthwhile rather than accepting their help occasionally and critically.

onlooker:
" GA also goes down as time wasting sectarian if the thinks actually opposing a group like JAZ is worthwhile rather than accepting their help occasionally and critically."

What help are JAZ offering?

TG goes up in my estimation if he has all these 'criminal' things against him

Ah, now that is very interesting. These 'criminal' things against him are just the ones he was CAUGHT doing, and convicted for, not the ones he got away with.

But presumably your estimation of TG would go up depending on how serious the crime committed? Like credit card fraud - he goes up by 10% in your estimation, shoplifting, by 20%, car theft - 30%, assault and battery - 40%, kidnapping - 50% and so on?

Will you truly ADORE him if he commits a murder, Onlooker?

Olga asks when was the last time I gave a talk. Oh about a month ago! It was a debate at the most conservative university in Scotland, St. Andrews. It was a motion regretting the formation of the Israeli State. Interestingly we, i.e. the speakers from Scottish PSC and myself won more votes than the Zionists in a packed meeting of about 200 people. You wouldn't get Atzmon doing anything more than a puff Atzmon meeting because at the end of the day all this is about Atzmon.

And the idea that Atzmon could debate Zionists and win, well that is absurd, because he has nothing to say other than why Atzmon is such a wonderful fellow! A monstrous ego with nowhere to go.

Lenni Brenner spoke audiences of over 50 in both London and even Brighton. And he had something to say unlike the self-indulgent ego that goes by the name of Atzmon.

Atzmon and his postbox Knuckles (can you believe, they're against violence with a name like that?!) believe that allegations of shoplifting & credit card fraud, 25 years ago, are relevant to whether Atzmon is a racist and anti-Semite. For all Atzmon knows I could have planned the Great Train Robbery but that still doesn't prevent Atzmon being racist scum.

But since I've been personally told that Atzmon has stolen the music of Palestinians he worked with, maybe he can tell us how that reflects on his character. He even, apparently, owes royalty monies to at least one prominent Palestinian artist that he hasn't bothered to repay!

But I don't hold any of the above against him. I'm not even sure how relevant they are since Atzmon's anti-Semitism has no obvious connection to his leeching on Palestinians.

But since Atzmon is incapable of answering the very reasonable questions he was asked I will do so:

1. There are certain character traits unique to Jews?

Yes of course Atzmon believes in such traits. He calls them 'Jewishness' and therefore makes stereotpyical remarks such as Jews are 'gatekeepers'.

2. Jews have a tendency to play the victim? Naturally they do and not just Zionist Jews.

3. The European persecution of Jews was to some significant degree the fault of the Jews
Very much so. See the 'Hunters of Goliath' article that Indymedia still haven't taken down, though I expect the collective meeting in Nottingham may wish to do just that since it justifies the Holocaust. Jews were murdered because of their 'unpopularity' and thus were deserving of being killed, just as the gays and gypsies deserved to die because of their 'unpopularity'. indeed if a victim of racism is 'unpopular' according to Atzmon then they (or their associates) have no cause to complain about being attacked, injured or killed. This, mind, comes from the pacifistic Atzmon and his Knucklehead friend.

4. The Jews were in a position to have prevented the Holocaust. (Perhaps through a modification of their own behaviour/culture.)

Naturally this follows on from above.

5. The 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' to be authentic or are at least authentic portrayal of Jews?

Hitler said that the Protocols were genuine because they were true. Atzmon believes that it is irrelevant if they are a forgery because what they say is, as you say, authentic. A minor difference between Hitler and Atzmon but not something to write home about!

6. The Jews exaggerate(d) the crimes of the 3rd Reich.

Atzmon originally wrote to me that the Jews had exaggerated the holocaust but then half backtracked.

7. There is reason to question the evidence of Gas Chambers at Auschwitz.

Atzmon doesn't officially do this. But my acquaintance with Atzmon began when he defended Israel Shamir, a man who believes that Auschwitz was an 'internment camp' that the Red Cross regularly visited rather than an extermination camp. What does Atzmon believe? Who knows. Does he know what he believes in, apart from his own ego?

8. There is a concerted effort by Jews to either dictate global policy if not rule the world by proxy.

Oh indeed. just read his essay 'On anti-Semitism'. The Jews (sorry Zionists) because he has altered and replaced Jews with Zionists when it was pointed out to him, (though some references remain given that he is pretty dim witted) do indeed control the world and dictate foreign policy (see quotes below).

9. Most of the time "antisemitsm" is just valid criticism of Israel/Jews.

Absolutely. Atzmon is a firm believer in this, although of course he doesn't believe anti-semitism exists he hates the fact that I accuse him of it! Work that one out if you can get round the problem that Atzmon's brain doesn't do logic.

10. Insert a question you wish I had asked here.
One would be spoilt for choice but I no longer need to ask Atzmon any questions because, as John Prine once said, a question ain't really a question when you know the answer too!

Tony Greenstein

‘it is Zionist interests that America is serving. American Jewry makes any debate on whether the 'Protocols of the elder of Zion' are an authentic document or rather a forgery irrelevant. American Jews do try to control the world, by proxy. So far they are doing pretty well for themselves at least. Whether the Americans enjoy the deterioration of their state's affairs will no doubt be revealed soon.
 http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/onanti.html
American Jewry makes any debate on whether the 'Protocols of the elder of Zion' are an authentic document or rather a forgery irrelevant. American Jews do try to control the world, by proxy. So far they are doing pretty well for themselves at least. Whether the Americans enjoy the deterioration of their state's affairs will no doubt be revealed soon.

 http://www.labournet.net/antiracism/0507/ongilad1.html
In June, Gilad distributed an article by his friend Paul Eisen, entitled “The Holocaust Wars”. It is a long defence of the neo-Nazi, Hitler lover, and Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel…
Gilad described “Holocaust Wars” as a very important text, and defended Eisen when the controversy erupted. The document was originally published in December on the website of Israel Shamir, whom Gilad described as a “unique and advanced thinker”. His independent thinking includes describing Auschwitz as a labour rather than as an internment camp.  http://www.israelshamir.net/English/Who_Needs.htm

G: Mr Greenstine, True I circulated Paul Eisen's paper. I do believe that argumentative texts must be circulated as widely as possible. I am sure that in case you have a counter argument to suggest Paul will be delighted to address it. By the way, my take on the subject is slightly different than Paul's one and yet, i found Paul very attentive to my criticism. Furthermore, Let me assure you that if I ever see a great text written by yourself I ll be the first to circulate it. This is my way, that is what i believe in.
T: Not that this should be any surprise given your association with Israel Shamir, who makes a habit of supporting and defending white supremacists.
These statements were made in e-mails to me (Tony G)

The idea that Zionists have taken over America might sound bizarre in the first instance but we must remember that this kind of strange scenario does happen. Last month I heard Israel Shamir's observation regarding this very issue. In a very open manner he said that no one would be surprised to hear that during different phases of the British Empire the world was governed by a very close group of 'Eton' graduates. "Some times" he added, "great empires are taken over by very marginal groups". We might have to acknowledge that this is the case with America. American foreign policy is dictated by a very marginal group of Zionist activists, even by the state of Israel itself. Good news for Israel, quite an amazing achievement for a microscopic state. But is it good news for the American people? Is it good news for the world?
 http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/protocols.html

The J word, the J people and the J spot-Gilad Atzmon
The J’s are the ultimate chameleons, they can be whatever they like as long as it serves as some expedient.
 http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/jspot.html
On Anti-Semitism
Gilad Atzmon 20.12.2003
I would suggest that perhaps we should face it once and for all: the Jews were responsible for the killing of Jesus who, by the way, was himself a Palestinian Jew. But then two questions should be asked:
1. How is it that people living today feel accountable or chased for a crime committed by their great great great ancestors almost 2,000 years ago? I assume that those Jews who get angry when blamed for killing Jesus are those who identify themselves with Jesus's killers. Those who would commit this murderous act today. Those Jews are called Zionists and they are already advancing into their sixth decade of inhuman crimes against the Palestinian people and the Arab world. Zionism, for those who do not know, is a repetition of the darkest age of the Jewish Biblical era. 2. Why is it that the Jews who repeatedly demand that the Christian world should apologise for its involvement in previous persecutions, have never thought that it is about time that they apologised for killing Jesus?

TG"Atzmon is incapable of defending himself

And the idea that Atzmon could debate Zionists and win, well that is absurd, because he has nothing to say other than why Atzmon is such a wonderful fellow! A monstrous ego with nowhere to go."

So why don't you debate him at a public meeting? I'll even record it and put it up here, so that everyone can revel in your demolition of the man. He's never refused to debate with you, but you've always refused to debate him.

If the only thing he has to say is that Gilad is great, how comes you label him an anti-semite?


TG"1. There are certain character traits unique to Jews?

Yes of course Atzmon believes in such traits. He calls them 'Jewishness' and therefore makes stereotpyical remarks such as Jews are 'gatekeepers'."

I don't suppose you'd be able to cite where Atzmon defines Jewishness as a character trait by any chance? Cos I think its yet another example of how you don't understand text and/or lie through your teeth.

BTW - don't use this article:  http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m31465&hd=&size=1&l=e

cos here Atzmon seems to refer to Jewishness as ideology - which isn't the same as a character trait.

'Resolutely, I differentiate between Judaism (the religion), Jews (the people) and Jewishness (the ideology). I refrain categorically from referring to Jews and avoid criticism of Judaism. The reasons are obvious. First, though Israel regards itself as the 'Jewish State’, it is far from being the State of the Jews. Many Jews are living outside of Israel and have nothing to do with Israel or the Israeli crimes. Second, it isn’t Judaism that inflicts so much pain on the Palestinians but rather people who follow some peculiar modern secular vision named by some as Zionism. Thus, it is the Jewishness that I am interested in, the ideological mindset and the cultural framework. I am interested in the collective bond that provides Zionism with a substantial body shield. I am interested in that which transforms Global Zionism into a leading and winning contemporary worldview.'

TG"3. The European persecution of Jews was to some significant degree the fault of the Jews
Very much so. See the 'Hunters of Goliath' article that Indymedia still haven't taken down, though I expect the collective meeting in Nottingham may wish to do just that since it justifies the Holocaust. Jews were murdered because of their 'unpopularity' and thus were deserving of being killed, just as the gays and gypsies deserved to die because of their 'unpopularity'. indeed if a victim of racism is 'unpopular' according to Atzmon then they (or their associates) have no cause to complain about being attacked, injured or killed. This, mind, comes from the pacifistic Atzmon and his Knucklehead friend."

In light of the above misrepresentation of Atzmon, I'd suggest that people go to the source and read it for themselves. Theres also audio where Atzmon responds directly to your claims.
 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/12/387155.html - theres clearly no justification for genocide and you'll not be quoting anything by Atzmon that says there is. Because, just like you can't debate him, you can't back up your lies either.

BTW don't hold your breath for the removal of Hunters. The outcome of the meeting is far from a foregone conclusion.........

TG "Does he know what he believes in, apart from his own ego?"

Perhaps one day his ego will be the same size as yours -whether that would be greater or smaller is the question .....

TG: "Work that one out if you can get round the problem that Atzmon's brain doesn't do logic."

heh we could even have a break in the debate you're too scared to hold, where you and Gilad could do a logic competition. I'm sure you'd demolish him at that too *rolleyes*

I note that you haven't confirmed that Israel would immediately cease the starvation of Gaza if I accept your mad claims of his alleged racism. If you can categorically confirm it I'm willing to pretend :-)

When you first contacted Indymedia, you said that :

TG"On most occasions accusations of anti-Semitism, especially by Zionists against those supporting the Palestinians are a form of defamation. In this case they are unfortunately true."

Would you care to tell us how many you have publicly labelled as anti-semitic since then?

"'Resolutely, I differentiate between Judaism (the religion), Jews (the people) and Jewishness (the ideology). I refrain categorically from referring to Jews and avoid criticism of Judaism."

But what he does (also in Hunters of Goliath) is play fast and loose with it all. He doesn't confine himself to Zionists, secular or otherwise. He draws a religious analogy between the Jews of antiquity and his modern target. He goes on to imply that European Jews had some hand in their own fate and could have addressed their own unpopularity, which resulted in the Holocaust. He goes on elsewhere to Attack Baron Cohen and his wife on the simple basis of their Jewish faith. He is interested enough in the collective Jewish identity to pronounce vacuously that they are all quite welcome in Europe (an indirect assertion that since Hitler's defeat Jews were unreasonable to flee the countries where they were persecuted?).

None of which is given caveat by any terminology legend, as would be expected. A conspicuous weakness in the assertion of delineation/divergence in concept/vocabulary.

Since you seem to understand what the hell the distinction between Atzmon's "Jewishness" and addressing the culture of Jews is, could you tell us? To me it looks like misdirection.

At the least do you not find it terribly inconvenient that Atzmon is basically telling us his "Jewishness" label belies what is understood by the word in common usage? In other words, is it not a tad unfortunate that if you use the common understanding of the word the texts miraculously appear to be deeply bigoted?

If someone were to write an article about Muslims with the same MO would it remain unhidden. Would a repost of Kilroy Silk's painfully ignorant rant against Mulsims stay up here?

"Since you seem to understand what the hell the distinction between Atzmon's "Jewishness" and addressing the culture of Jews is, could you tell us? To me it looks like misdirection. "

Why don't you go and read yourself and come back to us with some specific questions. In case you didn’t get it yet, FTP is not your mother, he doesn't have to chew your food for you. I am not willing to do it either. Being a man with a big ego, as the shoplifter just said, I am not wasting time on moronic Zios. You go now and do your homework.

TG: And the idea that Atzmon could debate Zionists and win, well that is absurd, because he has nothing to say other than why Atzmon is such a wonderful fellow!

Olga: Tony you truly are a tedious, turgid little specimen. You should donate your small brain to science. Atzmon not only partakes in countless debates, international conferences & radio broadcasts on this issue, he also performs every single night of the week diligently & passionately devoting his music to Palestine. He is engaged with shifting the consciousness of music lovers on an epic scale, a far more challenging task than reinforcing the draconian paradigms of a few crusty students from the ‘Marxists R Us’ society.

TG: A monstrous ego with nowhere to go.

Olga: If I could play saxophone half as well as Atzmon, my ego would be need of surgical reduction. If Gilad does indeed love himself, I couldn’t blame him. He’d be a fool not to. As for ‘nowhere to go’ – have you checked out at his international touring schedule? It’s you who is anchored to the spine-tingling glamour of Hove Unemployment center Tony. What day of the week do you have to sign-on again?

"Why don't you go and read yourself and come back to us with some specific questions."

I did. They were hidden and so is your refusal to answer them.

Greenstein answered them for you.

That you choose not to defend your own work in relation to Greenstein's and my subsequent points speaks volumes. Instead of rebuttals you have only issued insults and prevarication. You are seemingly unable to clearly define your own terminology let alone even engage with your own text.

Try publishing an academic work with that attitude and you'll get laughed out of town.

You have left yourself looking very much like a bigot, a time waster and a charlatan.

Thank you for making that patently clear to any objective reader.

Goodbye!

TG: Olga asks when was the last time I gave a talk. Oh about a month ago! It was a debate at the most conservative university in Scotland, St. Andrews…..

GA: Hey Joker, Olga didn’t ask when is the last time you opened your mouth in public. She asked when is the last time you gave a talk under the name ‘Tony Greesnstein, what she meant is when is the last time people left their house in the night to come and see you talking? Send us the links, we monitor you and your friends for a few years.. . Macover gives a talk twice a year, Rosen is doing it rather often and Brenner performs though no one comes to listen to him (I know the figures of the last UK tour). . .. Unfortunately you don’t perform under your name and you have zero following both politically or intellectually.

TG: And the idea that Atzmon could debate Zionists and win

GA: You are a Zionist Mr Greenstein and you were offered to debate me but you run away. Tony , in adition to your embarrassing record and your present as aqualified bully,,, you are as well a coward…

However, listen to the Audio, whenever I mention your name, the entire room starts to laugh… this is your town Greenie, these are your people.

I felt some huge support in Brighton. It is all thanks to you my dear stalker. I told a friend today. To get a PR company to vandal a church for me would cost me millions. You are doing it all for free. I just lv you baby, almost as much as I love myself.

TG: Atzmon and his postbox Knuckles (can you believe, they're against violence with a name like that?!) believe that allegations of shoplifting & credit card fraud, 25 years ago…..

G: Greenie, you just spoke about your Rabbi Father a few posts up.. this happened 30 years ago. Why did you do it, is it relevant? I believe it is! However, the chain of events that takes us from your shoplifting to your credit card theft, to intimidation of Jewish students, to bulling IM UK moderators and eventually vandalizing a church.. is the story of YOUR life. This is a story of a non ethical being. Greenstein you are the lowest of the low. You are everything I despise about Zionism but you are even lower because at least they are proud to be who they are! You are just a crypto...

TG: For all Atzmon knows I could have planned the Great Train Robbery but that still doesn't prevent Atzmon being racist scum.

GA: Somehow, you try to say it for 3 years and you didn’t manage to convince anyone except your silly Jewish circle. And even they do not join you anymore. They could see you pull them down…Why Elf and Rosen and Macover kept quiet? Any idea? I think we know the answer.

TG: But since I've been personally told that Atzmon has stolen the music of Palestinians he worked with, maybe he can tell us how that reflects on his character.

GA: How exactly, did I do that?

TG: He even, apparently, owes royalty monies to at least one prominent Palestinian artist that he hasn't bothered to repay!

GA: I have some news for you Mr Greenstein, this matter has been resolved. It actually has nothing to do with me. The Person is Reem Kelani, she had a dispute with the publisher of my music who owns the rights of my music. Eventually she agreed to what offered to her by the publisher. Her dispute wasn’t with me though she may thought so for a while. However, this issue is common and it has been resolved. Now back to you, did you give the credit card back? did you give the chicken back, did you went back to the church to amend the demage you left there?

Anti Israeli Zionist: Try publishing an academic work with that attitude and you'll get laughed out of town.

once you do your homework, you will probably find more about my academic credentials as well as my academic publications... just for the record...

3 major UK uni' contacted me today trying to book the 'Primacy of the Ear' talk...

As an ex academic i can tell ,,, you should spend some time reading...

I can as well tell you won't... you are lazy and intellectually lame

Yeah and I don't have to check that if you have a doctorate your thesis wasn't in social sciences or anything similar. Was it music perchance or comedy?

My, I'm the one who has done all the reading on racially motivated crime, right wing extremism and racism- which isn't bad since I'm a linguist by training and occasionally by profession, and I'm being told by someone who can't even defend his own work I have to read MORE!

Comedy is definitely your forte! You are very good at that.

I have read your material. I asked questions. You prevaricated. You can't defend your work. End of story.

By the way, if you are intending to spend much time with real academics, you should know that waving your letters around in a debate is considered terribly bourgeois by left-wing eggheads and many of the rest too. It's considered to be a poor substitute to defending your work. A big faux pas.

Be sure to send a copy of this to all the University Ents. Officers who wish to book you. As proof of what you are made of. If anyone asks you any questions remember to insult them and change the subject... nobody will notice!

It's good to know that Atzmon has settled with the Palestinian artists he tried to defraud. Took some years though! I guess this is his idea of solidarity.

I don't debate racists because racism is irrational.

I debate against Zionist supporters because they carry some weight. Atzmon is nothing in his own right, although he believes himself to be an academic. We shall see which 'universities' want to publish him.

Not all racists Mr FTP accept the definition of being racist, but there is nothing to 'Jewishness' other than a racial stereotype. There is no 'Jewishness' ideology, there is no common attributes to Jews anymore than there is to Arabs. One of Atzmon's little supporters posted something up on a Brighton list saying that being 'typically Jewish' is to be loud or as he put it, uncharaceristically silent. I have an interview with another racist, but this time a lecturer called David Bukay at Haifa University, where one of his stereotypes is that certain people are 'loud'. Except that they are Arabs and he has even published a learned work called 'The Arab Personality'. Atzmon in reverse, or the other way around.

TG"3. The European persecution of Jews was to some significant degree the fault of the Jews

'Very much so. See the 'Hunters of Goliath' article that Indymedia still haven't taken down',

Yes from the mouth of FTP. The European persecution of the Jews, and by the same logic gays and gypsies is the fault of those murdered. This is the racist trash that one gets from FTP and other Atzmonite clones these days.

We will see whether the Indymedia collective is prepared to make a stand against Atzmon and his anti-Semitic nonsense. FTP might be right. They may indeed decide to collude. I would hope not but regardless he now accepts that no decision has been made, unlike the contrary assertions of Mary Rizzo not too long ago.

The Peeps asks how many I have accused of anti-Semitism. I only accuse those who are anti-Semites or racists. And FTP is definitely both.

And until Atzmon can respond on line explaining why he thinks that there is a Jewish conspiracy to control the world, then there really is little point debating with him and his ilk.

Tony Greenstein

TG:"The Peeps asks how many I have accused of anti-Semitism. I only accuse those who are anti-Semites or racists. And FTP is definitely both."

Is it just me then? Or are there perhaps a few others? You haven't answered the question at all. Perhaps I'll recount some of the incidents for you if you can't remember.

As to your claim that I'm both racist and anti-semitic, are you goiong to back it up with evidence, or is it just another of your baseless smears?

Yes, that was another rhetorical question - we all know the answer......

the thing up here says "make a quick comment". Tony obviously treats these boards as if they are indeed the examination board for one's dissertation, drawing up this, that and the other.... especially the other... like putting other people's quotes in the mouths of those he thinks he is "debating". He knows all about the "intellectual dishonesty" he was publicly accused of by one of the members on the Alef board, but I'm talking about .. a comment about loudness being on some other board, and attributing it to Gilad..

Tony, time to keep a scorecard, as you can't even manage the debate and who said what!

Speaking of debate: Tony has to learn something. So far, no human being has been determined as the recepticle of the truth, although there are those who are more truthful and honest than others. Tony thinks that it is a slugging match and turns it into Tony vs Gilad. It is just so annoying to deal with. Tony simply is fixated in some of his repetitious quotes that have been discussed ad nauseam for many years now.

The world has moved on. When I see Tony actually giving a damn for Palestinians, I might cut him some slack. As it is, he is absolutely a crypto zionist. He serves the Zionist cause so well it makes me wonder how much they might be paying him.

At any rate, Tony, keep tuned to my blog (sewer, as Elf calls it) There are some special things coming up all about you. It is your massive ego we are feeding. No one knew who you were two years ago, now I get people looking your name up in a google search and coming to my blog. You should be thanking Gilad for turning you into somebody.

Breaking news... Tony Greenstein and crack double agent David Hirsh (Daud Harisi) involved in Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange .... Ariel destined for the Minestrone:

 http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/2008/01/peacepalestine-offers-prisoner-exchange.html

It is shocking to see how far antisemitism on indymedia uk and beyond has gone. The majority of commenters here seem to be unable to detect the antisemitic arguments in G. Atzmons writing. Where are the others? Where are those who actually have an understanding of radical politics that goes beyond "good vs evil"? How simple minded do you need to be to believe that the conflict in the middle east could be cured by simply wiping israel from the map? Or by calling everyone who fights against antisemitism a Zionist? I am sorry, but this is antisemitism. The US invaded Iraq. Does anyone demand to dismantle the US alltogether, as is commonplace with Israel? Is nobody able to criticise the Israeli occupation of Palestine without being antisemitic?
This Atzmon nonsense is all over the web - "the Jews control US-politics", "the Jews personalise politics", "the Jews" this and "the Jews" that. Why does it need to be on indymedia as well? Atzmon might be a good musician, but his politics are an antisemitic nightmare. indymedia uk is becoming a playground for conspiracy theory fuelled antisemites, it seems pointless to intervene. Another promising project gone?

" Is nobody able to criticise the Israeli occupation of Palestine without being antisemitic?"

Obviously not as far as ol is concerned.

We support Tony Greenstein all the way!

Just to say that we stand alongside ENGAGE and WORKER'S LIBERTY in our support of Tony Greenstein, who, at the end of the day, remains one of us - a Jew! True, he has been criticising a few of our more forceful policies over the years from inside the so-called Left, but as an insider, he was able to learn the way it works in England. Nothing wrong with that. Thankfully at last he has become a mensch and I personally no longer consider him an enemy of Israel. Musseltov Tony, and we stand in solidarity with you.