Trade Justice demo, Brighton.

...'capitalism is pretty fucking nasty with the gloves off, but there's no way that we'd ever consider giving up even one of our filthy fucking class privileges. Isn't there some kind of a pill that we could take to make everything alright?' Nice pictures though, that's what it's all about...

Too right, never mind all this unity/diversity rubbish, far more important that those of us who are wise and pure denounce those who haven't reached our level of enlightenment..

otherwise we might find ourselves as part of a mass movement, that would never do!

"the marchers were christian middle England types"

so what? do you think that "christian middle England types" should be allowed to protest but non-christian working-class types should get the full brunt of the baton?

So a few celebs turned up - they are part of the frigging problem.

Well I was just about to post the obligatory "TRADE JUSTICE??? NO MATE, ***WORLD REVOLUTION IS WHAT WE NEED" post... "Fuck those christians, fuck those socialists. The people with the monopoly on wisdom are the ANARCHISTS. Everyone else can fuck off. And NO MIDDLE CLASS ANARCHISTS either. Anyone who pronounces the letter H at the beginning of a word will be strung up from a lamp-post come the revolution".

I thought I might as get in there first before someone less sarcastic had their say first.

But you guys beat me to it.


Can I ask you a serious question (having done with taking the piss for the moment). Are you lot just JEALOUS of us because we're richer than you? OR do you seriously think you have some kind of MORAL SUPERIORITY?

The class to which you belong is entirely an accident of birth is it not? So if you'd been born middle class you'd be the one driving the volvo. We can't help the class we were born into any more than you can.

You might argue that we have some sort of moral obligation to give most of our income to the poor rather than buy volvos (not that I have a volvo or even a car at all). BUT IS THAT HONESTLY WHAT YOU WOULD DO IF YOU WERE IN OUR SHOES??

Most of those middle class protesters would see no contradiction in what they're doing. They're not revolutionary egalitarianists and they don't pretend to be. But they think it's unfair that:

The EU, USA, etc, are all heavily subsidising our agriculture
WHILST denying majority world countries the right to do the same
WHILST forcing them to import our cut-price (subsidised) grain etc
WHILST refusing allow them to export most of the stuff they could be exporting to us.

They see all that as being "unfair trade rules" and they want to challenge that because they think it's wrong.

This is all part of a global movement to challenge global injustice throughout the world. I think it's great that those people have been radicalised to the extent that they have. And yes of course they've still got a long way to go but to hate them just for being middle class isn't going to help with anything at all.

Also, right, before you judge other people take a look at yourself.

You're a right fucking toff.

With all your slaves and servants.

I bet I could name loads of them. Hmm, let me think, there's the one in indonesia who made your trainers. There's that poor kid who picked the coffee beans that went into that chocolate bar you ate earlier today. OK you get the general idea...

So while you may feel like on the national level, you're working class, if you look at the global level, we're all middle class in this country. Britain is stinking filthy rich, there's no denying it. And while distribution of wealth INSIDE this country is very uneven, if you compare yourself to the average citizen of the world, you're absolutely f**king rolling in it and you can't possibly deny that you yes you are benefitting materially (not as much as some people but benefitting nonetheless) from other people's exploitation across the planet. Therefore you're complicit in that exploitation. You're doing well out of the global economy. Very well. You're certainly not at the top of the heap but you're nowhere near the bottom either. Compared with most people on the planet you've got shitloads of material posessions and your job may suck (get some skills and find a better one!!) but it's nothing like working in a sweatshop in an "Export Processing / Special Economic Zone".

I don't like you're slagging of middle class people. We should aspire to and try to build a classless society but you can't blame individual middle class people for being middle class and enjoying the kind of perks that you'd be enjoying yourself if you were middle class. If you're that desperate to be middle class though, go to university and get a good degree. Then you get youurself a nice middle class job. It's only a class system, not a rigid indian style caste system.

Anyway I just think the politics of resistance should be about resistance about peace and love and not about hate.

>"the marchers were christian middle England types"
>
>so what? do you think that "christian middle England types" should be allowed to
>protest but non-christian working-class types should get the full brunt of the baton?

I think what the original poster was getting at was that the Christian Aid people and all that lot are generally of that part of society that is too polite to go in for any sort of physical aggression. They've had a very sheltered existence and they're not used to pushing and shoving. So the police didn't really have any reason to expect any trouble. Therefore why were the police being arsey??

The emphasis is on the police being annoying. That's my interpretation anyway. I don't think it was meant to be having a go at anarchists or whatever.

From the police's point of view (and I'm sure I've broken some sort of anarchist rule about not imagining the enemy's point of view, but then anarchists aren't meant have rules ;-) so who cares)... from the police's point of view, anarchists are rather more likely to smash stuff up than the NGO crowd. So from their point of view it's quite rational to be prepared and vigilant. (Unless you're honestly expecting them to LET you smash stuff up). That doesn't meant that they should use any sort of "pre-emptive force" or stop people from protesting - of course that would be out of order. All I'm saying is that if they're standing around trying to look menacing and being all like twitchy and stuff that's a bit more understandable if the black bloc are in town than if you're just got Oxfam, World Development Movement, Christian Aid, Cafod, and all that lot.

Don't get me wrong though. I think the black bloc kick arse.

When I read all the vitriol about the middle class NGOs or the (whatever class) socialists, I can't help thinking this is a case of the movement being divided and ruled.

It's like the people's front of judea...

We don't all have to agree and infact plurality and diversity are good things but we should be engaging in constructive debate rather than just slagging matches.

Well here we go...

1 - You've got a computer in front of you? Well, assuming you own it or you paid to use it, you are obviously anything but poor.

2 - I fully agree with the person who said that you can't choose which class you are born into. Collective punishment isn't justice, guys. We complain about collective punishment against Palestinian communities. Class divisions do cause cases of gratuitous disliking. Go take your anger out on the real bastards, not me!

3 - The real difference between my slight advantage in wealth over yours is that I could afford the train ticket quite easily to get down to Brighton. Its not who's got the money, its whether they're using it for good or bad. And besides, its not really who's got the money and who hasn't, its who's got the power. Otherwise we'd all hand over the keys of dictatorship to the SWP and let them do the wealth redistribution commie-dictator style (and bare in mind which party I recently quit).

4 - I was told of for singing "The IMF is a right...bunch of bastards". Apparently the march was supposed to be about loving people. What a lot of liberals. But did that stop me going? No, I knew I'd get hassle for my views, but this is the crowd we want to win. Most people don't suddenly "wake up to inequality" and become anarchists, I certainly didn't. Most people start with the NGO's, realise they're pants and start to look elsewhere. Maybe they even go join a party, then quit. Its a process not some flash of light revelation. Lets get out there and reach out to others, not assume they hate us.

OK, thats possibly more than two pence, but hey.
Rebel W

Why aren't you all orthodox Marxists?

Marx was convinced that only the urban working classes could lead and run a revolution. Anarchists, on the other hand are happy to work with anyone and everyone who is marching in the right direction. This is what led Marx to split with them during the First International.

Anarchists don't go for orthodoxy. I guess that's why we believe in fuckin' LIBERTY and stuff.

By the way, here's a quick guide to the leading anarchist thinkers of the last 200 years and their own social origins...

Pierre-Joseph Proudhon - middle class landowner's son turned printer

Errico Malatesta - upper class landowner's son turned electrician

Michael Bakunin - Russian aristocrat

Peter Kropotkin - Russian PRINCE

Emma Goldman - innkeepers' daughter, petit bourgeoise

And they all kicked arse anyway, so what's your problem?

Some people are posher than us commoners. Big deal. Get over it.

The points people make about not having any choice about being born into a class are fair enough, but, (you knew it was coming didn't you?) I read the post again and cant understand why people are taking exception to my remarks. I agree that the NGOs are pants, mainly 'cos they are reformist IMO. The original post says that considering the majority are middle class christians they are surprised by the policing. I think the original poster should openm their eyes. I have been on protests in solidarity with our moslem brothers and they get an openly hostile reaction from the cops regardless of their class.

I think the original post is insulting.

Well here we go...

1 - You've got a computer in front of you? Well, assuming you own it or you paid to use it, you are obviously anything but poor.

and you don't??

(A) wrote"The points people make about not having any choice about being born into a class are fair enough, but, (you knew it was coming didn't you?) I read the post again and cant understand why people are taking exception to my remarks. I agree that the NGOs are pants, mainly 'cos they are reformist IMO. The original post says that considering the majority are middle class christians they are surprised by the policing. I think the original poster should openm their eyes. I have been on protests in solidarity with our moslem brothers and they get an openly hostile reaction from the cops regardless of their class.

I think the original post is insulting."

I would be equally surprised if loads of working class buhdists were surrounded by cops in protective clothing. Not because of their class or religion but for the total absurdity of it. Myself I'm all in favour of middle england finding out what it's like to go on a demo in the real world. What I don't understand is why the cops would waste so much resources on a demo that would never kick off or even see any civil disobedience. They also risk alienating those who would usually fight their corner. Maybe it was a dry run for the Countryside Alliance demo two days later?

The police are not there to maintain order. They are there to protect their Labour Party pimps and corporate interests.

I dont understand why people think they are immune to this because of their background or because they have some money. The assumption is IMHO either naive or arrogant.

First post misread to the point of trajedy. But still (A) carries on regardless now claiming that someone here is trying to promote the idea that law abiding liberals deserve better treatment from the forces of darkness. Which noone is. Because they dont. As has been clearly explained by all the posts above. Cant you read? Is that enormous shoulder chip blocking your vision?